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Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Here's a VIDEO that gives you a general idea of what parts of the assembly require careful attention.

    You have to shim and pre-load the side bearings, put the proper torque on the pinion gear nut (using an inch-pound torque wrench) and then measure the backlash on the ring and pinion and adjust as necessary using some prussian blue dye and a dial indicator.

    xwesx said:

    Precision is quite important in this job. Everything has to be measured....even torque is quite critical.

    Great. These are not words of encouragement! LOL

    Honestly, I have never broken into a differential before. In general, they're one of the more reliable components on a vehicle. I considered just dropping it off the truck and taking it in to a shop for a rebuild, but I'm not sure I want to get into it ($-wise) that far. What is certain is that I need to get it sorted soon, as the snow will only hold off for so long....

    It just looks to me like a series of gears, so I would think that putting it all back together just like it came apart should do the trick, particularly if I am just installing a pre-built differential. The only connection that I could even screw up would be the ring-to-pinion gear.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    Yeah, sounds like perfect n your back in driveway in sub zero temps with a pair of vise grips work.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    No problem if you can keep your dial indicator from fogging up. B)

    No, seriously, it all depends on your skill level and/or your ability to find the right info and right tools. It's not a job you want to do twice. I've done a few simple transmissions, but never a differential. I'd have a go at it I think if I didn't need my vehicle in service for a while. It's something I'd really take my time with.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    Wes should be good. Just give his wife a snow shovel.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    Make sure it's a plastic shovel in case she wants to hit him over the head with it.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015
    Hahah; you guys are great! Thanks for the vid link. I'll have to take a closer look at that parts when I get home, but I currently have no plans to replace the ring and pinion gears. As such, I'm hoping that the mesh on these will not be an issue upon changing out the differential gear set. We'll see. If the backlash is sloppy in there right now, I might have to start screwing around with it.

    Otherwise, I'll just go in, pull the differential and ring gear (leave the pinion alone), remove the ring, install it on the new diff, mount it, shim it, check the backlash again, and close it up. Twenty is a fast speed for this truck, so if it hums a little at 40+, I don't really care. :)

    The more I look at this stuff, the more I think I'm probably going to put selectable hubs on it when I'm done. I'm pretty sure that the reason this differential's spider gears failed is due to the full-time 4WD. This isn't like a modern AWD rig with clutch packs to deal with speed differentials on dry roads. Running 4WD on this thing is like any other part-time system in that running dry puts a lot of stress on the system. My grandparents used this truck ALL the time for at least the first ten years of its life, from daily driver to plowing to weekly trips down to Seward and Homer in the summer months while pulling a 25' cabin cruiser.

    Not that I run dry much (if at all), but as long as I'm in there, why not improve things?

    I'm going to chat with a neighbor who has experience with these and get his take on it. There are still a lot of things I have to tear apart before I'm at the point where I can even get the differential out. Man, I sure wish this had happened on the REAR axle instead!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Do the axles pull out with releasing C-clamps on these?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015

    Do the axles pull out with releasing C-clamps on these?

    No. The retention of the axles occurs by way of securing the wheel spindle to the steering knuckle.

    I was able to make significant progress last night, removing both of the axle shafts and the steering link that crosses from knuckle to knuckle just fore of the axle housing. while it was not in the way to remove the differential cover, it would not allow the differential itself to come out.

    I also found out that the gear ratio is 4.09 (45-11), and there was an interesting discovery in there as well: The ring gear has a manufacturing stamp on it of 2/14/77. That's rather curious to me because my grandfather purchased the truck in November of 1975, IIRC. He never mentioned anything about drivetrain work other than a couple of major engine issues.

    But, if that is a manufacturing date on the ring gear, it cannot be original. Also, I discovered that making the system "part time" 4WD is not as simple as disengaging the wheel hubs, so I'm not going to buy selectable hubs.

    The new differential is on its way! I settled on a Detroit Locker. In the meantime, I'm going to put new U-joints in the axle shafts and see if I can find shocks.


    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    A good choice but is this an automatic locker?
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015

    A good choice but is this an automatic locker?

    It is. From the Eaton website:

    The Detroit Locker is a 100%-automatic locking differential that provides ultimate traction for mild to extreme vehicle applications. Its unique, bullet-proof design is engineered to keep both wheels in drive mode - even is one wheel is lifted off the ground.

    During straight-line driving, the Detroit Locker captures 100% of available torque and sends it equally to both wheels. In turns and maneuvers, the internal components unlock to allow one wheel to spin faster or slower as necessary (free wheel). When the vehicle returns to a straight-line driving path, the components re-engage and provide power to both wheel ends.


    Based on the operational description of many different types of locking differentials (I had no idea there were so many!), this seemed like the best fit for what I need.

    I found the u-joints and shocks, so I now have work for tonight as well as being a few hundred poorer. :@
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Earlier automatic lockers were a bit of a bear on paved roads, in that the shift from lock to unlock via torque input was rather abrupt. But I think they've come a long way in alleviating that, for the most part.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015

    Earlier automatic lockers were a bit of a bear on paved roads, in that the shift from lock to unlock via torque input was rather abrupt. But I think they've come a long way in alleviating that, for the most part.

    In what I was reading, that is still somewhat of an issue. The information available on helical designs and "positrac" units noted that their smoothness over more traditional locker designs (of which the one I bought is one). However, those other designs that do allow for a smoother drive also require some wheel resistance to initiate the power transfer to the other wheel. This locker will provide power even if one wheel is suspended in the air, plus I do little if any driving on paved roads (well, none that are not also covered with snow/ice). On most modern units where part of the locking differential mechanism employs differential brake application, even the "soft" units can perform well under conditions such as these.

    I do not, however, have such a modern beast! Considering how well my truck worked with open differentials (before this failure started taking hold of the front axle), I strongly suspect that the full locking front end will allow for maneuvering out of even ridiculous situations.

    Happily, I've only managed to get my truck stuck a few times in the years I've been doing it, but every time it involves a long walk home and quite a bit of effort to recover. One time, I even had to call out a flat bed to recover it, which was pretty embarrassing since that cost about two driveways' worth of annual compensation. /sigh
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015
    Another successful evening. I installed both of the axle u-joints without any drama whatsoever (it was even easier than the guys on Youtube made it look!). Afterward, I gave up on trying to remove the old shocks the nice way, broke out the grinder, and had both of them off in less than five minutes. Install of the new shocks (Rancho RS5014) was maybe another ten minutes to complete.

    The weather is being very kind to me; it was only a degree or two below zero last night. I was able to work out there (under two hours total) without significant regard to the temperature.





    My differential still has not shipped. I'm starting to wonder what the term "expedited" means to these guys. LOL
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    oh what fun!
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    Once the diff arrived, how long to have if all back together?

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    stickguy said:

    Once the diff arrived, how long to have if all back together?

    It really depends on time available, weather, and if I have all the parts/tools I need in hand at that time. My current estimate is that I need about four hours for the install and reassembly. This, however, only includes the differential and axle/wheel reassembly. If I don't have everything else sorted and ready to go ahead of time, I could need a lot more time.

    In terms of working in the evenings (I was out there from about 2000-2200 last night, so I don't start real early), it's probably two days. I have a couple of trips coming up (one for a funeral, one for the holiday), so I'm really hoping to have it back to running prior to the holiday trip on the 23rd. If I don't get the diff by Tuesday, I don't think that will happen.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Expedited to FBX involves malamutes.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    stever said:

    Expedited to FBX involves malamutes.

    While I think that should be funny, I'm just not feeling it this time. :p
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    I was going to say the train (or the ferry) but only you would get it. ;)

    Great pics - next time you should include a thermometer.
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015
    Sweet! I think they must have sent it via Alaska Husky dogsled, as apparently the unit is in Fairbanks already! Malamutes, you know, have high strength but low speed....

    It is scheduled for delivery tomorrow. Apparently it shipped out from the midwest at about 0100 this morning, arrived in Anchorage at about 1000, and to Fairbanks in the early afternoon.

    It's an amazing thing to live in the modern world! Thermometer.... Hmm. I'm really not sure I have one that could be used in this way. Embarrassing, really.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    I actually took a dogsled trip (full day not overnight) and I must say it was quite fun and cosy. I recommend it for short commutes. The view isn't so great, though :)

  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I was on a business trip one winter in Fairbanks and it was 25 below zero. The next week I had to fly to Oahu to put out a fire and it was 80 degrees there.

    In Fairbanks, the restuarants offer raindeer and eggs. In Hawaii, it's spam and eggs!
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    Hey, look what I found when I arrived home last night! I'm impressed. It took about eighteen hours to transport this thing from Indiana to my front door in Fairbanks. Mind = blown.




    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    edited December 2015
    So, that was the good news. The BAD news is that after I pulled the old differential from the housing this morning, I discovered that the bearings on the pinion gear are in a bad way. It is nice and solid in there, but it would be irresponsible of me to not replace them given how rough they feel. So, @texases was spot on in that I'm going to need to do the full rebuild. I am not excited about this, but I'm also looking forward to the challenge!

    For your amusement.....


    For scale, this is a large screw driver on the right side of the frame (about 14" long). The pile of debris/shavings here is enough to describe as a "heaping handful."



    Did you want another look at those spider gears? I caught their good sides here! :D



    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2015

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    Say what?! LOL! I was not able to see the photo or link you referenced in your post directly, but it showed up when I clicked the "quote" button.

    Hey, I'm not THAT backwoods! :p
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Oh, sorry :)


  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    edited December 2015
    For the advanced DIYer, we have:


  • stevedebistevedebi Member Posts: 4,098


    O. M. G.

    That's a shoe in for the Darwin awards.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    "That's a shoe in for the Darwin awards."

    Why? He's go TWO supports, after all.... :worried:
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    @wesx - sorry it's turning into more of a handful, but at least that new part looks NICE! How are the axle bearings? Once those gear bits start circulating around, they can cause a lot of problems...
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Yeah that metal dust can do a lot of damage for sure.

    I've seen guys using cenent cinder blocks as jack stands. Talk about dumb!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    That guy is probably welding the gas tank :)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Well he did chock the rear wheel.
  • ab348ab348 Member Posts: 20,285

    Well he did chock the rear wheel.

    Safety first!!

    2017 Cadillac ATS Performance Premium 3.6

  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    texases said:

    @wesx - sorry it's turning into more of a handful, but at least that new part looks NICE! How are the axle bearings? Once those gear bits start circulating around, they can cause a lot of problems...

    Haha! It sure does look nice! I'm going to keep it on the kitchen table as a center piece until I finally get everything sorted out enough to install it. Okay, well, maybe not really. I'll see if it is still sitting there when I get home and go from there. LOL

    As for the bearings, those in the differential are definitely in need of replacement. However, the Dana 44 front differential uses a sealed design that places driveshaft seals on either side of the differential itself (you can see them in the third photo I included previously) This is good, because it means that the wheel bearings use bearing grease and are isolated from the gear oil in the differential. And, the wheel bearings are just fine (I can find no fault with them, so they get to stay).

    However, once I expanded the scope of my parts needs to, essentially, a full differential rebuild kit, rather than just the carrier bearings and races, I found that my local suppliers FAILED ME! Sadly, this means more shipping expenses and waiting. So, I ordered a full kit from Rock Auto with express overnight shipping (another $60, but that basically puts the kit on par with what it would have cost locally anyway) and hope to see it early next week. Sadly, though, this means little to no progress on the truck this weekend.

    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,685
    Just a quick update as I head out of town for the weekend...

    I didn't have a lot of things to do on the truck last weekend (which was good, as it was BUSY!), so I cleaned up the differential and removed the rear shocks. The new shocks and the rebuild kit came in on Tuesday, so I did some prep work on the new parts Tuesday night planning to get the bulk of the work finished last night.

    Last night.... well, it was hit and miss. I was able to get the pinion gear installed, and it is smooth as butter in there now! That's the highlight. Unfortunately, the new differential is a couple hundredths of an inch larger (longer?) than the old one, so it actually doesn't fit in the differential housing as expected. Where it is different is anyone's guess, though, so I will definitely have to spend time on the shimming process to get that sorted out. I'm stalled right now though, because I don't have any way to get the bearings off with my current tool collection without destroying them. New bearings are ~$25 each, so I'm not entirely opposed to doing that, but I can only get two locally at the moment, so that gives me pause.

    I'm going to see if I can find a bearing puller while I'm down south. If I don't have any luck, I may just break out the grinder and make that bleeping thing fit in there by shaving a bit off the back side of the races. Aside from that, though, it's been smooth sailing. I'm still confident that it will all come together; I'm just getting a little stressed about how long its taking me. More snow is an inevitability, and I hate to let my neighbors down.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    edited December 2015
    Had the fintail out for a little drive today - first time in 3 weeks. Started on the first turn of the key, gotta love it.

    Ran fine, although the new dash rattle and the weird noise when one revs and lets up are annoying me - guess I have next year's projects already lined up. The car got a compliment from a guy at a gas station. I got to use the horn a couple times, as people here are distracted/incompetent and I am impatient, always fun as it is loud.
  • berriberri Member Posts: 10,165
    I got to use the horn a couple times

    Ah, getting ready for some Chicago or east coast driving B)
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    edited December 2015
    '99 Miata - not sure if it's been listed before - maybe there's more to the story. Asking more than dealer retail, but Miata's seem to bring more than TMV. The photo isn't encouraging.

  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    bad writing even by the standards of CL. And that might be the single worst picture I have seen, and that is really saying something.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    For a second there I read CL as GL and thought you might have been referring to George Lucas and The Force Awakens. :p
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Doesn't say what the miles are?
    stever said:

    '99 Miata - not sure if it's been listed before - maybe there's more to the story. Asking more than dealer retail, but Miata's seem to bring more than TMV. The photo isn't encouraging.

  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107

    Doesn't say what the miles are?

    "100 miles"? I kinda doubt that...
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Member Posts: 64,481
    Wow, that's only 5 miles a year. I wonder if they were highway miles? :D
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I see that now and then on craigslist ads - just lousy shorthand for 100,000. Saw another yesterday with "178" miles. The literate ones put the odo reading in the box Craig provides them and the reading shows up in the right sidebar.
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Frankenstein Jag or is it really something worth $50k?

    I really enjoy ads that say worth $50 to $60k - am I supposed to offer $60k right off the bat?
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    Not for me. Take whatever money and buy a Corvette, rather have one than a FrakenJag with a Vette engine, fiberglass 'bonnet', and XJ wheels/hubs.
  • fintailfintail Member Posts: 58,415
    Ugh those wheels on that car. I suppose 30 years ago it was worthless and this made sense, now, nope.
  • stickguystickguy Member Posts: 53,350
    I surprisingly don't hate that jag. V engine actually looks pretty clean in there. I would never buy one of course.

    I was expecting an XJ or something.

    2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.

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