Project Cars--You Get to Vote on "Hold 'em or Fold 'em"

gsemike

That's a 6 cyl car. The typical small block build up is worth 10 grand to 12 grand. That's a car with a decent paint job, at least a grand in rims and tires, a rebuilt 350 with the usual goodies and buckets and console with a gauge package.

Who cares if it's got 35k on it? The drivetrain's got to go to make it at all interesting. That's obviously not the original paint so who knows what it's like underneath and who really knows if it's got 35, 135 or 235?

I'm thinking 2 grand.. maybe 2500.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah but nobody gets his money out of a street rod anyway, and mechanical work is a LOT easier than body work.

fintail

I'd buy that Nova before the Lumina, with the money being equal. That pic does look suspect though, something seems wrong with the lower door skins...I smell rust.

fintail

This is kind of a cutie, shame about the teeny tiny engine

ghulet

Looks great, I'm sure it's a dog, though the low curb weight (~2700 lbs.) helps a bit. Still, 100 gross horsepower is, well....

fintail

Nice condition, but BIG

andre1969

if I'd even go $2000 on that Nova. The rear quarter is dented, the front right fender has damage, and the bumper is twisted. Also looks like it took a light hit to the front.

Oh, and the '81-83 Malibu hubcaps set it off nicely

I think I'd definitely be fool enough to plunk down $4900 for that '70 Grand Marquis, before I'd throw down $5K for that Nova! For the most part, I never really liked big Mercs beyond around 1963, but that style that ran from around '69-72, with the hidden headlights and grilles that hadn't gotten too tall yet, always appealed to me.

lemko

Holy Barrett-Jackson, Batman! I should get at least DOUBLE that for my 83K mile 1988 Buick Park Avenue by that Lumina dude's standards.

andre1969

funny you'd mention Barret-Jackson. I was at the drugstore the other day, waiting on a prescription, and upon perusing the magazine aisle saw that Barret-Jackson puts out their own magazine. A big banner across the top proclaimed "Collector Cars Beat the Stock Market!"

Good lord, I wonder how many suckers are going to fall for that line. :surprise:

Mr_Shiftright

Makes me want to publish the selling prices of B-J cars three months after the auction, when 95% of the buyers find out they paid 30% over market value.

andre1969

this little magazine of theirs was a real hoot. One of the articles in there was "The top 5 Barret Jackson myths" or something to that tune. One of the myths was that if you tip the auctioneer, you'll get a higher price. One I really loved though, was the myth that people over-pay for B-J cars. They responded to that by saying that the only amount a winner overpays is by how much he beat the #2 bidder by!

Ummm, okay. :confuse:

Oh, and they were trying to push the whole "B-J experience", attempting to pass it off as a lifestyle and a privileged experience that you really can't place a dollar value on. And oh, the lifelong pals you'll make.

Umm, yeah, go try telling the wife that you want to hang out with your BJ buddies on Sunday afternoon, and see what she thinks of it! :P

Mr_Shiftright

Well if they are implying that B-J "sets the market price" that's simply a lot of hot air. If they are saying "the car was worth that much to that person on that day", I have no argument with that.

Again, the old rule applies...unless you eyeball the car up close and personal, you can't say precisely what a particular car is worth. Digital camera photos don't cut it---I have seen SO MANY eBay cars that look GREAT in photos and then you see it and it's appaling how badly it was represented. On the other hand, I've seen what I thought were "overpriced" cars from B-J and they were so perfect and spectacular and correct that I realized that even at the inflated selling price, the restorer couldn't have come out very well.

Aside from the very rare cars, where the argument is "pay this price because where can you find another one?" (a very good argument for an inflated price, by the way)...but aside from those cars, I think the others are overpriced, even if they are very nice.....because one sale is a database of one, and that's all.....

qbrozen

Here's the thing, though .... they aren't overpaying as long as people keep flocking to BJ. There were many instances over the past couple of years where they have made a comment like "oh, this one went through last year." So there are quite a few vehicles that are simply being bought and sold ... like stocks. And, so far, the prices keep going up as BJ gains in popularity each year. I won't argue that they are overpaying ... but then someone just overpays even more the next year. So BJ may not be market correct in all of Car-dom ... but they are market correct if you consider BJ in a vacuum-like market all by itself.

Mr_Shiftright

I seriously doubt more than a small fraction of previously bought B-J cars bring higher prices each year...it's a narrow market WITHIN a narrow market that you're seeing...the rare and unusual cars within the unusual B-J climate....how can most people be making a profit when both buyers and sellers are paying commissions to B-J AND expecting to beat inflation AND a profit on top of that? If you added up say 15% to B-J from both sides + 2% inflation, and if you sold the car at a 20% jump in price in one year, the car itself cleared only 3% in a year.

It's smoke and mirrors, folks, except for the lucky few who buy rare and correct cars. And remember, cars that were selling for 10 million in 1989 were selling for 1.5 million in 1991.

qbrozen

if we wanted to spend the time, we may be able to contruct a list from the info on their website .... but i ain't doin it.

I'm sure you're right about the smoke and mirrors. I mean, once you deduct all the commission, entry fees, transportation, etc, etc ... its WAY more than just the selling price dictates. Which certainly makes me wonder WHY cars return the next year. Maybe the new owner sobered up later and realized they need to recoup what they can, and BJ is the only place they can hope someone will pay more than they did.

OR, maybe they just have so much money that they want to have it for a year and then exchange it the next year for something different. If the cars were considerably cheaper, and I had considerably more disposable income, I could see myself doing this.

Mr_Shiftright

Yeah a lot of auction buys are impulse buys and people quickly tire of their purchases. It's an affluent man's version of some women buying clothes that they hang up in the closet with the price tags still on them. I run into guys who bought on impulse all the time and then get home with that 1967 Lincoln Continental convertible that still needs $4,000 worth of work that went unnoticed "under the lights" and they're scratchin' their heads wondering...now WHY exactly did I buy this car? Oh, it seemed like a good deal at the time (before I checked the market value).

andre1969

is a 1977.5 Can Am that recently sold in a B-J auction for something like $23,000. Now it was very low mileage, IIRC, so if you want a low-mileage, really nice Can Am, you probably WON'T be able to find another.

Speaking of low-mileage cars, what exactly DO most people do with them? I have a buddy who bought a 1978 Mark V last year that only had around 11,000 miles on it. I'm sure he paid a premium because of those low miles. But he does drive it regularly to car shows and such.

I think with him though, he was trying to rationalize it as buying an almost-new 1978 car that still has a ton of life left. But not taking into account that things are still going to deteriorate, break, short out, etc, simply from old age. And going to the beach one day last year, that's exactly what happened...his a/c compressor seized up and sent smoke billowing out from under the hood. He thought it was on fire, so he pulled off to the side of the highway and called the fire dept from his cell phone.

Mr_Shiftright

there you go, the elegant trap of old cars with very low miles....if you drive them, they depreciate in value as the miles go up...if you don't drive them, why'd you buy it---especially if it isn't particulary special to begin with.

fintail

So which digit in the price was added by accident?

Dude thinks he has a Shelby or something

gsemike

I'd like more info on the Chevelle. He's got some nice weld wheels on which aren't cheap and it's got a 200r4 tranny which hints at a modern drivetrain. With a full accounting for everything, maybe it could be worth 4 or 5.

Mr_Shiftright

Chevelle wagon might be worth it if it were a solid #3 car.

67 Mustang GTA -- forget $37K, try $21K and take it.

andre1969

the THM200R4 tranny as far as durability goes? I know it's based on the lightweight THM200C that was known for early failure, but I heard they got most of the kinks out of the 200R4 fairly early on.

I've had two cars with them...an '85 LeSabre that we had to 157,000 miles and an '86 Monte that made it to 192,000 when it got t-boned. Both cars were bought new by family members, and never had a bit of transmission trouble. However, in both cases, they were also paired up to fairly mild engines...a 307 with 140 hp/255 ft-lb of torque and a 305 with 150 hp/245 ft-lb.

I know there was a beefed-up version that was used in the Grand National, Monte Carlo Supersport, and the Cutlass 4-4-2/Hurst.

With the exception of the weak Olds Diesel though, I don't think the 200r4 was ever paired up with an engine in the 5.7 liter range. Would it be strong enough for those beefier engines? Once GM started using 350's in their big cars again (I think starting in 1990 for the Brougham), those used a tranny called the THM700r4, or something to that tune. I dunno what police cars would have used though, in that interim period between when the THM350 went out, and before the THM700 became available.

How would a 200r4 compare to a 4L60E tranny?

fintail

Another old Ford that survived pretty well in Seattle. If you go to the link in the ad, this car looks pretty nice, save for the bump on the wheel opening. A good detail, and this might be a looker

Another old Ford survivor

ghulet

Never liked Falcons much, I'm definitely into the larger, glitzier, guzzlier of '60s cars. Have to admit they made a lot of sense, though. Apparently there were plenty of people who didn't particularly like the trade-off of cars that got 9 mpg, cost $4-5k and took up an entire garage just to get to work or the store and to haul six people once in a while.

I like that Galaxie, I'm partial to four-door hardtops in general, though. I like the GMs of that year better, though they're a big, bulbous mess compared to the cleaner, boxier lines of the Fords. That upright roofline really emphasizes the length of the trunk on that Galaxie, though. Its proportions aren't quite right, IMO.

fintail

It's more of a notchback hardtop rather than the pseudo-fastback style that GM used, so that trunk does look big...and it is big!

I think the Fairlane/Chevelle sized cars were a good mix for size vs practicality

stickguy

A local repair shop has a 4 door like that parked out front, except it appears to be hot rodded to soem extent. At least it has mags, and the rear is jacked up (high rise rear shackles at least). No idea what engine it has.

andre1969

I think my favorites are the '62-63. I like their curved, rounded style, and in '62-63 you could get a hardtop and convertible. The '60-61 were mainly just cheap, basic transportation though, with no hardtops or 'verts, and I just didn't care for the way they boxed up the sheetmetal for '64-65. Then in '66, even though it was still considered a compact, the Falcon actually got moved to the intermediate platform. They chopped about 8 inches out of the wheelbase and also, pardon the pun, trunk-ated it, to make it smaller than a Fairlane.

Also, by '66, Ford was trying to concentrate on the Mustang as its sporty small offering, so all the desirable styles of Falcon, like the hardtops and convertibles, were dropped.

The main thing that's always scared me about the Falcon though, is that they look like they'd blow up in the slightest of rear-enders. Ever look up underneath one? There's not really much to them, and the drop-in gas tank (where the top of the tank also serves as the trunk floor) looks like it's about two inches from the rear bumper. I always wondered how explosion-proof a Falcon is, compared to a Pinto.

I always loved the style of those big '65-67 Fords. And like you, Ghulet, I've always been a big fan of the 4-door hardtop. I think the big GM 4-door hardtops looked great in '65-66, but didn't like them as much when they went swoopy for '67.

qbrozen

There's not really much to them, and the drop-in gas tank (where the top of the tank also serves as the trunk floor) looks like it's about two inches from the rear bumper.

Sounds exactly the same as the '66 Stang I had. And, yeah, I worried about that design as well. I never did get that car on the road, though, so I never had to find out how it would fare getting rear-ended.

fintail

I do like the 63 Falcon Sprint 2 door HT...I wanted one of these around the time I started driving.

This is a funny little thing

Retro camper/motorhoem candidate maybe?

fintail

Divisive styling, but it has to be worth this money

andre1969

Look at what just showed up at the local used car lot up the road from me!

1986 Brougham, only 17,000 miles! They want $9995 for it, though. Handsome beast, though.

Mr_Shiftright

should be worth the money or more if the paint job isn't a cobble and it runs well.

british_rover

Looks like an ambitiour restoration would be needed to say the least.

Looks fairly straight to bad about the 6 cylinder

Would be good for an AMC freak.

This seems over priced considering its issues and not truly numbers matching

Mr_Shiftright

'70 Cuda -- car isn't worth that much anyway with a 318--maybe all painted up to #3 level, clean daily driver $8,500. So basically what we have here is a pile of junk worth $500, if that.

'68 Mustang -- serious rust, body damage, 6 cylinder AND a coupe...not much here....maybe $750 if it's got a decent front end that can be clipped.

'68 AMX -- the car he should have started restoring was a 390 with a 4-speed, not a 343 automatic. He should drop his reserve and take that $5,000 offered...there's not much more money in this car. You can buy a very very nice one for $15,000 all day long.

'66 Pontiac GTO convert: might be worth the $10K but not much more. Obviously the "restoration" standard here isn't very high, so that's a problem. The ad is really weird...claiming PHS documented but with a wrong engine is strange....also that $8,500 would finish the project...yeah, maybe in someone's back yard.

british_rover

STupid high Buy it now price

Mileage is really not low enough and even if the condition is perfect the rarity of the Holland & Holland does not justify the Buy it now. Probably three grand at least over real value.

lemko

I wonder if that car really is as nice or nicer than mine? Good God, if I only had $9,995 burning a hole in my pocket and a place to keep it.

Mr_Shiftright

Special Editions are practically worthless once they age....nobody cares...it's just another depreciated option on the options list....the only "rarity" that counts is special bodies or special engines.

andre1969

even though it's low miles, I doubt that it's as nice as yours. I don't think anybody pampers their cars like you do! :P

Actually, even though I wouldn't be willing to pay that price for it, I wouldn't mind having something like that Caddy. Wasn't 1986 the first year they started putting 307's in them, instead of that awful 4.1?

xwesx

So basically what we have here is a pile of junk worth $500, if that.

No, it is hardly worth the cost of hauling it away, let alone an additional $500! E-gads, the crap people try to sell to make a buck on a craze.... :confuse:

That '66 GTO might be a fun project to tackle in the backyard, but not with $10K invested up front. :surprise:

xwesx

I am not one for large cars in general, and large '80s cars in particular(!), but that Caddy really is a handsome beast.

au1994

Cuda--One of those I would pay someone $500 to get it out of my yard.

Stang--Nothing special as has been noted. If it's at 2250 now, take it and RUN!

AMX--At least the work that has been does looks good, I agree though, 5k and good bye!

lemko

I believe 1986 was the year they finally substituted the dreadful 4.1 with the 307 V-8. A friend of mine has an extremely low-mile 1983 Sedan DeVille with 13K on it. It has the dreaded 4.1 V-8.

bumpy

your archetypal [non-permissible content removed] staff car

Berlinetta? WTH?

Ah, the Z32

this one might actually be a keeper

a WHAT?

the unknown DSM

if you're a risk taker with a turbo itch

sorry, it's just a mullet car

plenty of miles, but they'll run forever and look fabulous doing it

kickin' it old school

these should be worth some pennies down the road

depreciation in action

"I sold the battery out of it to my uncle who needed one at the time" :confuse:

british_rover

2002

and I have always kind of like the AWD Turbo DSM's and the Laser is just kind of cool since you never see the turbo version of that car.

Mr_Shiftright

the "beritone" is probably a Fiat X1/9. Fun car but don't pay very much for it.

BWM 2002 -- looks pretty darn good, as it should be for that kind of money...but what's with the stupid air cleaner? They expect that THING to keep dirt out of the engine?

1982 Z28 Pace Car --- well "soon to be a classic"? Gee it's kind of taking it's time, isn't it? Hope springs eternal.

Benz 300SEL -- 173,000 miles? Fine, and congratulations, but get REAL on the price buddy....How about half your asking price and a four leaf clover for luck?

fintail

Berlinetta = your mom's (or grandma's) Camaro

That 126 doesn't look bad, but they do have to be pretty special to justify 7K anymore. Knock it down to 4500-ish anyway. I did get 5K out of my 182K mile car, but it was as pristine as one can hope for.

After being mentioned here, these things are coming out of the woodwork locally

Nice enough survivor, but not "Better looking than a 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970"

au1994

Man, there must be a run on old Pugeots. Never sen do many posted here.

The Mustang is nice, but not for 4500. Looks to be the Grande version which means that 302 is a 2bbl. The 71-73's are not as collectable as the earlier versions I don't believe. They were getting bloated and slow by then.

You could still bet pretty decent $$ for a Boss though.

Mr_Shiftright

That's right, 70s Mustangs don't bring the same prices as earlier designs---still, if the car is clean he'll get $4,500 for it no problem. At that price one could flip the car for a quick $1,000 if it was as nice as the pix look.

Peugeots: You are witnessing the last remnants, the few remaining cripples just prior to euthanasia for the species. There's always a rush at the end it seems.

lilengineerboy

So last weekend I went to look at a project car but it was a bit too sorry for me to tackle, let alone trailering it on a uHaul trailer from Pittsburgh to SE MI. So I got depressed and couldn't hang out here.
Lots of neat stuff was posted... that Fiat/Beretone X19 is an inexpensive mid-engined sports car. I think I would be tempted to look for a first gen MR2 first due to reliability issues. X1/9s are great for auto-x though, and Yugo hop up parts and aftermarket support is there.
1990-1996 300zx aged so gracefully. The 2+2 is the ugly duckling but the 2 seater turbo or non are both great rides. The turbo has SuperHiCas 4 wheel steering which didn't age quite so gracefully, but eliminators are available as well as the repair parts.
SVT Focus-not really much of anything. about the same money as an SRT-4 which actually has a limited slip diff and enough power to be embarrassing to expensive stuff. What SVT meant to do was give us the ST200, but Ford wussed out and now no more SVT.
DSMs-I think i would go for a Galant VR-4, but they all have the same problems. Ya gotta be a little gentle with the trans or it won't like 200+ hp. If you turn up the boost, you blow a HG (thats nothing new with turbo cars). The later ones have a "crank walk" issue, so actually these earlier blocks are better.
That 2002 looks great. If i had 7gs burning a whole in my pocket I'd be all over that. I actually think I would rather have one in slightly worse shape, and a base not a tii, and then swap a 90s 318i motor and trans in it.
I have a soft spot for '81 Peugeot 505 TDs as I learned to drive in one.( at 13 ) That clutch was the easiest I've ever driven. I also had a lot of quality time with friends at the side of the road waiting for someone's parents to come get us because it broke. Ahh memories.

fintail

This could be a decent driver...not many left