Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

idele

I think your decision on the LS600h is very wise. And I would get on your dealer's wait list as early as you can. I'm buying the GS450h as #1 at my dealer. The list was 13 a few days ago. These hybrids are going to be in short supply for the following reason. Lexus invested heavily in opening very elegant beautifully equipped Lexus showrooms. The one I visited in Osaka last month is owned by Toyota and the sales staff are Toyota employees. I suspect this is true for
a lot, if not all, of the approximately 140 Lexus showrooms. They have for sale currently only the new GS and IS and the SC (in common with Toyota). All the LS's and the Lexus RX400h are sold as Toyotas. So the showroom-dealers are operating at a low level. The GS450h and especially the new LS's are necessary to make their investments pay.
Hybrids are going strong in Japan; Toyota controlled Hino diesel hybrid trucks are selling well even at almost twice the cost of the regular diesel; Honda just announced that their subcompact Fit will be available as a hybrid in 2007. I think that Lexus will make sure its outlets in Japan are amply supplied with performance hybrids and the rest of the world will be in short supply for some time. So my advice is get on that wait list.

anthonyp

You would have had a blast---change the temp setting to your liking--advnce the passenger seat to where you had just the amount of room you liked---changed the radio stations for your listening pleasure---massaged the seats. and a few other things that I forget.....Now your mother would have probably been displeased to be re arranged up into the windshield, and you would probably had your feelings hurt when Dad snapped at you to quit messing with the toys....Now for me those things wern`t used really at all in the four years I owned the car....Tony

cyclone4

My name has been on the waiting list for several weeks now.

idele

Great! The LS600h will be in a class by itself and scarcity will just make it all the more desirable.

lexus460l

As much as I like the Lexus, i still think that the MB S550 is better so I ordered for about 3 days already.

drfill

Why is that? Lexus hasn't put all it's cards on the table yet. They will reveal more new features on the car throughout the year, to maintain interest and momentum.

It will already save you money with more gears and economy, why not wait to see the rest of the story.

DrFill

garyh1

As much as I like the Lexus, i still think that the MB S550 is better so I ordered for about 3 days already.

Okay, so let us know when you change your User Name! :confuse:

I would also be interested in hearing your reasoning. Was timing an issue (the S will obviously be available before the LS)?

nvbanker

Well, that tells me you can afford $150 for an air filter.....

lexus460l

I really really liked the Lexus a lot but it's not available until September. Timing is really an issue for me because I really needed a new car soon. I wanted to wait but I was afraid that Lexus will be doing the same thing as MB which is marking all of their S550's up by at least $10000.

lexus460l

Well lets put it this way. Now that I will have a new S550, I can wait until the out of this world hybrid LS600h comes out. When the hybrud does come out, I will definitely get a hybrid too.

lexus460l

I would also be interested in hearing your reasoning. Was timing an issue (the S will obviously be available before the LS)?

You are so right, timing was seriously an issue for me.

idele

Do you drive more than 20000 miles a year?

lexus460l

No i don't, I only drive like about 14000 miles a year and i will drive my new MB less because i'm going to lease it for 39 months and 15000 miles. My salesman estimated that the cost will be about $1500/ month with $5000 for down payment and the term will be 39 months with 15000 miles

landi

The current LS430 gets average of 21.5 MPG (18/25). LS460 gets average of 25 (mid twenties according to Lexus). That makes it say 20/30. RX350 gets 19/24 and RX400h gets 31/27. Granted the RX350 has a bigger engine than RXh (3.5 vs. 3.0, I think). The RXh City MPG improves by 63%. Since the LS600h has the same 4.6L (I think Lexus may sneak in a 5.0 V8 with 420hp), let's say that the LSh gets 40% better mileage in the City than the LS. That makes City MPG 28. The HWY MPG to 32. That is an average of 30 MPG! Not bad for a car with hp of 450-500 and 0-60 of under 5.0 seconds. I am making up numbers here but from a marketing stand point if Lexus is selling 0-60 for the LS460 of under 5.5 seconds. Then their "significantly Upper Scale" car that they want to charge about 90K should have a strong slogan like "under 5.0 seconds and average of 30 MPG". Can anybody from Germany beat that :P at any price.
As comparison MB 550S 382hp, 0-60 5.4 seconds, MPG 16/24 (average 20), Price $110,000 (fully loaded including AMG package and I would not even consider the car without it because IMO it looks average without it). To cap off the comparison Lexus will have more features but MB is more dynamic. Take your pick it is a free market society

ljflx

It seems the decision is made - but from a pure business perspective I'd say that your timing tied in with lease expirations dates is just awful. Lease expiration dates are forcing your hand and making the decision for you - at least that's how I read your posts. In effect the timing issue is causing you to pay a premium price because of a new car that hits the market and in effect has little to no competition at the moment. In 7 months the competition gets fierce from a car that will be significantly cheaper and will cut into the demand of the S-class which will in turn cause it's dealer pricing to be lowered. So in effect you are boxing yourself into a corner to pay a lot more money for a lot less choice. 7 months from now you will be able to get the same S for substantially less money and at the same time have a truly comparative vehicle to test it against. If you're an MB lifer it's a different story but if you're someone on the fence and more questionable about which car to choose than buying time to save money and have more choice is the way to go. Why not just extend a current lease, pocket some nice savings during the period and then make the decision in the Fall when price and vehicle competitions puts you in the advantageous position?

idele

Thank you. Leasing is the intelligent choice.

ljflx

Takes 50% of all the positions. The only Lexus model that misses the No. 1 spot is the ES and it probably barely misses.

http://biz.yahoo.com/special/luxuryauto06_article1.html

idele

In general I'm wary of options. But when I get them involuntarily because they are on the vehicle, some I find I like and, if I don't, they add to trade-in value almost as much as their original cost.
With regard to the V-12 arguments, I don't care for the Bugatti Veyron with its W16, but I am enthralled by Rolls-Royce 100EX withs its 9 liter V16. http://www.topgear.com/content/features/stories/2006/02/stories/07/1.html
Its design and presence are outstanding and the BMW ICE's are always top-notch. Lexus will thrive without a V-16.

samstayton

Can you tell me in which of my posts I said "toyota was going down because of absence of V12". It is exactly this kind of non-sense which leads to low quality debate.

V12 is most important in my opinion and in most manufacturers' opinion for technological reasons and for improving the brand cachet.

BMW started using V12 in 1987 for exactly the same reasons I have mentioned above.

Mercedes introduced back V12 in 1995 for same reasons.

Rolls Royce used to use V6 and V8. Why did they move to V12.

Bentley used V8 and V6. WHy did they move to W12 ?

Why did Audi started offering W12 ?

Why do you think Maserati is working on a V12 with Ferrari's help.

Are all these constructors Fools? Or are you forum stalkers?

Kirstie_H

Uh.... let's keep the quality up by veering far, far away from personally-directed comments, OK?

syswei

Please refresh my memory on what you said re Toyota/Lexus in the U.S. five years from now. I think you said they would be in serious trouble by then? (Please correct me if I'm wrong.) But I can't remember your stated reasons, other than the V12.

lexus460l

I really started to regret ordering my MBS550 so I went into the dealership and got my money back. I didn't want it anymore because it was a fairly high price tag. The one I ordered was like about $110000. Also, I didn't like it that much after I test drived it today at the dealership. It was a really smooth ride but it was just way tooooooo long. After i got my money back, I went next door to the BMW dealership and got myself a new 750Li fully loaded. I have the BMW in my garage right now and i'm really liking it.

nvbanker

Wow, you are full of surprises, aren't you. The 745 is certainly an awesome looking car to be sure. However, one must assume that you could have waited, since you ordered the MB, but wouldn't want to wait for the Lexus, since you grabbed the Bimmer last night. It's an odd conversion from where I sit - most BMW 7er drivers wouldn't be caught dead in a Lexus, and most Lexusphiles consider the Bimmer to be unreliable and smallish in the cabin. So, you've really got me baffled, for one. Clearly though, you'll need to change your handle.

An amusing aside - I also had an MB S-500 on order, when I suddenly changed my mind and bought the LS-430. I liked the looks of the MB better, inside and out, but the quality of the Lexus impressed me. Cancelled my order, and bought the LS about as fast. As soon as I did, the folks on the MB board literally THREW me off! Hopefully, that won't happen here, Im sure Lexusphiles are more tolerant and open minded than the MB folks.....

samstayton

My stated reasons were

1. Bland styling
2. Lack of agility and fine balancing in their cars. Some recent Fords should scare the hell out of toyota.
3. Not enough high-end models. Even Lexus sells with heavy discounts. LS 430 is 28,000 dollars less than S550.
4. Not enough experience with diesels.

But this is not where the discussion should go. The topic is about Lexus LS. And I did not start this diversion initially, some others did.

BACK to LS

syswei

Well all the reasons you give were also present over the past 5, 10, 15 years. Periods when both Toyota and Lexus have gained substantial North American market share. So obviously the buying public cares less about the items you enumerated than you think, and you are missing some things that buyers really do care about that Toyota/Lexus are good at. If Toyota/Lexus didn't visibly suffer over the past 5, 10, 15 years from the items you enumerate, why should they over the next 5?

But you're right, this is the LS forum, so if you care to continue the discussion it would fit better in the High End Luxury Marques forum.

idele

Smart move. I consider the 750's vastly superior to the Mercedes S's
since I regard its ICE's as better and the 750's design (improved over the 745) as more pleasing. The importation later this year of the Alpina B7 is a great event. Regrettably too late for you. It's interesting in regards to the arguments over V12's that Alpina has discontinued customizing the BMW 760's stating that the 750's V8's are now as powerful as needed.

ljflx

Nothing you ever stated made sense and every point you made is totally (as in 100%) refuted every day in the real world. Toyota is gaining ground everywhere and dominating certain segments more and more with greater and greater sales numbers from SUV's, trucks and cars to luxury SUV's and luxury cars. On top of that the move to bolder cars and more potent engines is already occurring with the LS leading the way in the latter. In all honesty the real question of the day is how more dominant will Toyota get now that it's turned on the aggressive switch.

From a pricing standpoint you couldn't possibly be more wrong. You compare a base LS430 at $55K (which doesn't exist except on paper anyway) to an 83K S500 (which represents about 4% of MB sales in the US). In 2005 most LS430's are selling at $60-65K and most S-class cars are selling at about $70-75K (S430 and S500 combined) as they are being discounted $10-15K. Lexus sells at a lower price for several reasons but one of the most important is that it is far more efficient in its production and distribution process than any of its competitors (in some cases it is downright embarrassing to the competition) and also that its labor costs are lower.

V12's - ask 100 Americans about which companies build V12's and I'll bet 95+ don't know or give you the wrong answer. It's of little or no importance and in a world with rising gas prices it's probably a liability these days anyway. Lastly I'll bet you are lucky if there are even 5K V12 sales a year in the US in any given year. What Lexus is doing is giving you a V12 equivalent hybrid in its' LS600H at S550 prices and it's going to be a V6 in fuel economy. That allows the car to reach a lot more masses with it's price, market it as a "green" car and dilute the V12 market place badly. The LS600H is a knockout car on many fronts and will have celebrities rushing to buy it. Homerun car and brilliant market move that will pull Lexus prestige way up.

Prices - You will see $100-150K cars from Lexus very shortly on the LS and the LFS sports car and a fully optioned new LX (when it's redone next year will push to $80K+). The pricing argument is history and Lexus prestige - as stated before - is going way up.

It's time to put your arguments out of their misery because they are fruitless.

acco20

You wouldn't be kidding us would you ????????????

wbwynn

Take a look at a three-year chart of Toyota stock...symbol TM.

Nuff Said.

cyclone4

I thought that Lexus had exclusivity with XM only. Just by coincidence, I was reading a few minutes ago about the new 2007 RX350 that one can choose either XM or Sirius Satellite Radio. Will this be a policy for all Lexus models? Will we have a choice on the LS600h?

idele

I am a very very happy owner of TM.

objectiveview

Toyota has a bit of experience with diesels, and makes some great diesel engines...you wont find them outside of Japan/used car import markets though....

They would need to work on the emissions however, thats about it.

wbwynn

You can choose either one.

mikegiller

DOWN WITH MERCEDES BENZ!!!

HISSSS!!!!!!!!!

Hahaha... I like to put it this way: I prefer Lexuses.

These are all just cars, afterall.

Also, Toyota owns Hino, which produces Diesel Hybrids. I believe idele had mentioned that Toyota will build a diesel engine plant in the US?

idele

To be accurate, Toyota has a controlling interest in Hino. One can invest in Hino independently since it is listed on the Tokyo Stock Exchange. I said that I expect Toyota to manufacture diesels with Hino in North America; not the same as "will". The Hino hybrids are the series type not the same as the hybrid synergy drive on Toyota/ Lexus vehicles. The extra cost of the Hino hybrids is huge but for operators like Fedex and UPS with lots of local deliveries, the payback can be less than 3 years. The series hybrids are offered by many companies.
Hybrid technology is developing rapidly because of the advances in large capacitors. It has been predicted that capacitor based hybrid systems will appear in 2008-2010. BMW showed a concept car at the 2005 Frankfurt auto show having capacitors in the front wheel wells for capturing braking energy. They are much better than using battery storage because they capture more energy more quickly. Dupont-Teijin,jointly owned by Dupont (USA) and Teijin (Japan) has announced the development of a large capacitor for automotive use.

Kirstie_H

Let's PLEASE stay on-topic here - we're talking about the upcoming LS, and not about any other vehicles, nor are we discussing Toyota as a manufacturer in this topic.

dennykrane

Thank You Kirstie !!!

DK

drfill

Whoever hasn't "Got Sirius" yet, better ask somebody!

Howard Stern has shifted the balance of power.

Lexus knows what's up.

DrFill

feverhart

Thanks drfill, you've just directed me to XM.

For those of you waiting for the 460 and 600 features that contain the harddrive in the audio system for holding 8 gb of songs, you may now, in the meantime, do the same with the Ipod that transfers music through the speakers. The disadvantage of this is that the radio must be tuned to an inoperative station. The advantage is that you can get 30 to 60 gigabytes of songs (enough to last for a couple of cross-country trips).

wbwynn

Using an FM transmitter for ipod degrades the sound; a direct connection is needed to maintain the quality, especially with the ML. I assume the new hard drive system will allow one to upload mp3 files from numerous sources.

cyclone4

For those of us that do not keep track of all these details about Sirius or XM, what exactly do you mean by this post drfill? Which is the better system?

drfill

First, before X-mas, I knew nothing of satellite radio (as you can see, I can't even spell it!).

But I knew Howard was moving there, and the NFL was gonna be thur! So that's where I went.

Go to Best Buy or Circuit City, and you will find a much better inventory/selection of XM than on Sirius, because the Sirius boxes are selling like turkeys at Thanksgivin'!

Sirius went from 600k subscribers to 3,300,000 over the last quarter!

There is no joy in XM Land!

Sirius is for tru players!

I think you can listen to "The View" on XM! :shades:

DrFill

feverhart

For a comparison of XM and Sirius, you may like to check out this address: http://www.radiosatellite.org/. If you like Howard Stern & Martha Stewart they're available on Siruis. XM has 68 music streams to 65 for Siruis. Advantages and disadvantages in both. Best to compare for your tastes.

billsoter

Sirius went from 1.1 million @ 1/1/05 to 3.3 million at yearend. Not quite as dramatic as 2.7 m in 1 quarter.
Lexus, or any other car maker, should not be in the business of selecting between the two sat providers. They should offer both.

bugfiat

This is from the Toyota global web site. It was released at the Geneva auto show today when the 2007 LS460 was introduced to the European journalists.

While excited about the pre-crash safety systems, I am somewhat puzzled by the lack of night vision. Are they keeping it for the New York auto show?

www.toyota.co.jp/en/news/06/0228.html

nvbanker

I agree with ya.

durogene

Please stay focus on the LS 460 not on satellite radio... Also, don't compare the LS to any other cars... It's the best and that it!

bugfiat

This from the Toyota Japan web site.

February 28, 2006



Lexus Shows Advanced Safety Technologies for New LS at Geneva

Tokyo, February 28, 2006 — Lexus unveiled today advanced safety technologies—including the world's first Rear Pre-crash Safety System—for the new LS at the 76th Geneva International Motor Show in Geneva, Switzerland (open to the press Feb. 28 and March 1; open to the general public March 2 to 12).

The new LS employs a newly developed 4.6-liter V8 engine and the world's first electronically controlled eight-speed automatic transmission to achieve both superior driving and environmental performance. A newly developed platform and suspension, as well as VGRS*1, VDIM*2 and the various advanced safety technologies unveiled today allow the new LS to achieve excellent dynamic and safety performance.

The advanced LS safety technologies are described below.

Pre-crash Safety System
■ Enhanced Pre-crash Safety System
The addition of stereo cameras and improvements to millimeter-wave radar now enable the Pre-crash Safety System to detect pedestrians, which the earlier system could not do effectively. The system warns the driver when it determines that the possibility of a collision is high. If the driver does not brake, Pre-crash Brakes are applied to reduce collision speed. (Previous systems detected only vehicles and obstacles on the road ahead and on-coming vehicles.)

The integration of such systems as VDIM, VGRS and AVS*3 aids collision-avoidance maneuvering.

■ The World's First Rear Pre-crash Safety System
A millimeter-wave radar device in the rear bumper continuously scans the distance from a vehicle approaching from behind, as well as its speed and angle of approach. If the system determines a high probability of collision, it automatically activates the front-seat Pre-crash Headrests*3, which move forward and upward in anticipation of an impact, aiming to greatly reduce the risk of whiplash injury.

■ Pre-crash Safety System with Driver Monitoring System
In addition to the stereo cameras and the use of millimeter-wave radar that detect preceding vehicles, obstacles on the road ahead and oncoming vehicles, a camera mounted on the steering column and an image-processing computer are used to detect the direction of the driver's face. If the system detects that the driver is not facing forward when it determines that the possibility of a collision is high, it warns the driver sooner than it would when it detects that the driver is facing forward. If the driver does not brake, the Pre-crash Brakes are applied to reduce collision speed.

SRS Airbag System
■ SRS*4 Knee Airbags for Both Front Passengers
In addition to front, side and curtain shield airbags, the new LS460 offers SRS knee airbags for both front passengers.

■ SRS Twin-chamber Airbag (front passenger seat)
The front passenger seat features an SRS Twin-chamber Airbag based on the Omni-support Concept*5. Unlike conventional airbags, which are deployed as a single element, the new airbag's two chambers create a depression in the center of the airbag upon deployment. The airbag comes into contact with multiple surfaces on the passenger's body such as the head and shoulders to disperse the physical impact of the airbag.

Driving Assist Function
■ The Lane-Keeping Assist System
This system assists in steering operations to help the driver stay in the lane, thereby reducing the driving burden on the driver.

The new LS 460 is scheduled to go on sale worldwide, including Japan, in the autumn of 2006. Also, Lexus plans to display an LS hybrid model at the New York International Auto Show in April.

*1 Variable Gear Ratio Steering
*2 Vehicle Dynamics Integrated Management
*3 Adaptive Variable Suspension System
*4 Supplemental Restraint System
*5 Distributes the impact from a collision by supporting the occupant at many points, in order to lessen the force applied to the human body.

LS460 specifications (for Europe)
Overall length 5,030mm
Overall width 1,875mm
Overall height 1,465mm
Wheelbase 2,970mm
Track, front 1,610mm (19" wheels)
Track, rear 1,615mm (19" wheels)
Overhang, front 885mm
Overhang, rear 1,175mm
Coefficient of drag (Cd) 0.26
Engine type V8 gasoline
Displacement 4,608 liters
Bore x stroke 94 x 83mm
Compression ratio 11.8
Maximum output (DIN hp) Approx. 380 hp (279kW)
Maximum torque Approx. 500 Nm
Transmission Electronically-controlled eight-speed automatic
Powertrain Front engine, rear wheel-drive
Suspension Front & rear multi-link (five links) air suspension
Fuel consumption 10.8 liters/100km*
CO2 emissions 254g/km*
Maximum speed 250km/h
0-100 km/h 5.7 sec.
0-400 m 13.8 sec.
80-120 km/h 4.7 sec.
*According to directive 1992/102 (Stage 3)/EC

landi

Lexus had previously released 0-60 under 5.5. Why a difference between Euro and US specs? Can anyone translate 10.8 liters/100km to MPG? Lexus Japan site has a picture of the "stereo cameras" on the steering wheel. It looks terrible and as an after thought on a 1980s toyota! IMO Lexus missed the mark on the interior of the new LS. It looks too much like the current model. I was expecting the conventional gear selector to be gone. I am Glad there is no I-Drive so the current model functionality and ease of use still the best in the industry.

drfill

0-100km = 0-62MPH.

So there are your extra tenths.

Did BMW get amazing press for their removal of the console-mounted automatic?

One revolution at a time, landi.

DrFill