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I remember that several months ago you were thinking that the LS600h would cost $100,000 or just above. I keep hearing conflicting reports on the cost. I am pretty much convinced that this is going to be the next vehicle for me no matter what the cost. I am number one on the list with my dealer. One year will go by fast enough I hope.
I believe I read an earlier post by you that you were planning on visting the NYIAS this weekend. Please let us know what you find out.
I'm at the NY show later next week.
I'd sure like to play poker with you guys.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/15/automobiles/autospecial/15luxury.html
Base SWB 460 $60,000
Luxury package $11,000 (upgraded leather, Nav, ML, XM, F and R climate control seats, intuitive Parking, Dynamic CC, one touch trunk)
Ultra Luxury $22,000 (includes Luxury package and Air Suspension $2,000, 4 seat package $5,000, Pre Collision $3,000, and HD Drive $1,000)
The 600L adds more power, AWD, leather stitching on the dash, LED lights, and higher quality of some materials adds about $13K. Lexus is reasonable when it comes to pricing. So my guess is $95K for a fully loaded 600 which is just over a base S550 at $87K. A fully loaded S550 is over $110K.
So if these prices are close, the 460L and 600L @ $82K and $95K are still positioned to be a value buy alternative to S550. I think they both offer more the the S550 but I ma sure alot of people on other boards would disagree
I can see a price as high as $120k on the 600HL though I seriously doubt it. But $95K on the LS460L is way over the top. This car loaded will run several thousand under a base S550. It won't go higher than that.
They should price the LS 460 and LS 460L "head to head" with at least Audi, means 68K and 72K respectively.
LS 600h L = 85K may be.
But thats not what they will do. They will in their typical value way keep destroying the good effort of their engineers by offering it at prices far below they should.
By doing this they will succeed in North America, where car buying is not much different than deal making especially with Asian brands.
This destructive policy will come around and bite them in Europe, where market does not respond to "Cut-rate" Luxury and where Luxury is taken as luxury and seriously too.
But Lexus LS still has to compete as a flagship with S-class and 7-series. And its a fact with europeans, and you cannot get data using surveys or lie-detectors, its psychological, that luxury and cut-rate just dont mix in europe.
Its the old continent and Asia is even older. Its ancient.
Luxury there means unattainability and I dont see how value and cut-rate cancer can survive when the chemotherapy of luxury is so powerful.
Roses are Red Violets are Blue
O my Lexus where are you
Thats not a poem which can be written by a man who hateth. Thou shalt not accuse. Remember, its easter, no more stones, only eggs and bunnies and fresh air.
He who has never blamed cast the first stones, remember???
Too bad that short-wheel base version is not available in North America..
Man, it's a true luxury from Lexus.. gosh, I'm so stunned.
Just take the reality.
Will they do it? Doubtful.
"The key question is, Will it have the performance?" Mr. Panke said. "The BMW customer will not sacrifice on performance."
This is such BS. He is implying here that the hybrids now in the market lack in performance. In other words, BMW wants to make sure that the hybrid they build is a true performance vehicle. What is this guy smoking? Has he driven the RX400h? My wife owns one and I can tell you this SUV does NOT lack in performance. It appears to me that Mr. Panke is jealous of Lexus that its hybrid technology is so far beyond any other company, that he is trying to use spin control.
Man I can't wait for the LS600h!
Don't you love this one:
"We should not try to educate or teach the customer about what he or she wants," Helmut Panke, the chief executive at BMW, said in an interview this week.
Come again with that comment. Did something get lost on translation?
So it seems that BMW doesn't want to hear what the buyer wants, they just want to force their will on him/her. Meanwhile his customers are asking where the hybrids are? Sounds to me like he got caught with his pants down and is hoping the German customers bypass a car the Germans are years away from building.
2. a8
3. ls
4. 7 series
DK
What he said was in fact true if you compare a RX400h or GS450h to competing BMWs in anything beyond just straight line speed. They might be faster or just as fast, but they surely aren't nearly as performance-orientated as the BMWs. A 550i will humiliate a GS450h quite easily even if the GS450h may be able to keep up with an automatic 550i in a straight line. Ditto for a X5 4.4i.
Wanna talk about spin? I seem to remember Toyota's head guy talking about how he was so worried about GM and their problems. He went so far as to say they might raise their prices in order to curb demand for Toyota vehicles, yet right after that Toyota embarked on launching more new Toyota/Lexus products than ever before. Now they're talking about how they expect to be #1 in the world. I guess they either forgot about the backlash that they thought would happen or they never cared in the first place. That was beyond a mere "spin".
Fact is all car executives say silly things from time to time and BMW execs are no worse than Toyota/Lexus execs.
M
Do most people driving a BMW do not do slaloms like a maniac on highways or corner at 69 mph when merging into a freeway with their wives? That is why most people know the BMW buyers as posers as opposed to ferrari or porsche buyers who "actually" use them "on track".
A BMW will humiliate the Lexus WHERE? On track may be. But then the Lexus will humiliate BMW by not doing rounds to the local mechanic every month. Now that will be very great humiliation for BMW. Imagine a BMW 7-series idiot trying to start his car while the LS 460 lothario already reaching home and having a good time.
Imagine a BMW 7-series idiot doing slaloms at 76 mph in his 4500 pound hippo on a freeway with his wife. He finds that there is a familiar car with flashing bulb chasing him. When he is stopped and given a $360 ticket and has to attend classes for next 90 days to get back his license.
His already estranged wife files divorce papers the next day as the slaloms got into her head and totally cleared her mind.
While the Lexus LS 460 guy cruises on the freeway with his lovely wife (he just picked her up from her favorite spa and wellness center) and she is kissing him romantically after they reach their destination.
Now thats humiliation. Now thats humiliation.
And how is launching products by Toyota related to not helping GM. Should Toyota stop introducing new products? Should Merc1 go to church every day?
And toyota never talked about how they expect to be #1. In fact they clearly said they have no desire to topple GM's number 1 position and they would be more than happy to be number2 and thats how its going to be. We are proud of you GM, keep it up.
It may be possible that time to time car execs from all companies say strange things or are misquoted, but thats not to say Helmut Panke should not be questioned for saying
"We should not try to educate or teach the customer about what he or she wants". May be Panke should educate himself how not to throw stones while sitting in a glass tower.
Merc1 most of your posts are okay, decent and even well-said and articulated, but this last one is very strange.
A BMW will humiliate the Lexus WHERE? On track may be. But then the Lexus will humiliate BMW by not doing rounds to the local mechanic every month. Now that will be very great humiliation for BMW. Imagine a BMW 7-series idiot trying to start his car while the LS 460 lothario already reaching home and having a good time.
Yeah at the track or any road you actually want to "drive" on instead of gliding. We all know a Lexus is more reliable, very, very old news.
Do most people driving a BMW do not do slaloms like a maniac on highways or corner at 69 mph when merging into a freeway with their wives? That is why most people know the BMW buyers as posers as opposed to ferrari or porsche buyers who "actually" use them "on track".
Yeah a lot of them do actually which is why BMW drivers have a certain reputation around here at least. You're more likely to see a BMW being pushed around than you are a Mercedes or Lexus. This "poser" crowd as you call them is what Lexus wants some of for sure. Why else would they pose the IS350 as a sports sedan without a stick shift? Posermobile indeed.
Merc1 most of your posts are okay, decent and even well-said and articulated, but this last one is very strange.
Yeah and you seem to be playing the dozens depding on the board.
M
IS has been a huge improvement. I think they missed the target on GS, but I sense and hope that LS will be a driver's car. In other words IS 250/350 and future LS 460 will significantly close the gap with BMW.
I believe that due to the unique nature of german car industry and their autobahn system, germans in general will have a handling/agility edge on the rest of the world for next 30-40 years till muslims make it a terrorist armageddon in Europe.
On the other hand the Japanese, especially Lexus, Acura and Infiniti will close the gap in 10 years to a large extent so that it will become visible "only" on track and by a very slim margin.
True it has but by all accounts so far it still isn't the equal to the 3-Series. That said I actually like the IS350. The thing is a rocket. Not including the stick shift though is a clear signal that they're only so serious about truly competing with BMW at what BMW does best. The GS well it doesn't even come close to th 5-Series in that respect. I seriously doubt the LS460 will be a driver's car see as how luxurious it appears to be. Lexus isn't going to give up their ride to truly chase BMWs at the LS/7-Series level.
Acura will never close any gap with BMW until they get rid of FWD. Infiniti has already shown they can build a car that can at least match a BMW in performance but they seem to still miss the finer points according to some.
M
I dont think they were half hearted because they are targeting not only BMW but mercedes too. 90% of C-class in US do not have stick.
LS will not be as agile as 7-series but it will still be a decent driver's car at over 4000 lbs.
Acura will shift from FWD to AWD gradually, so they will close the gap, no doubt. Infiniti will keep closing in as well.
If you want driver's car there is S2000, 350Z, RX-8, WRX-Sti, EVO, cayman S, etc.
I dont think they were half hearted because they are targeting not only BMW but mercedes too. 90% of C-class in US do not have stick.
Nah, Lexus repeatedly stated that the BMW 3-Series was the target not the C-Class. Your 90% percent figure is based on what Mercedes sells I take it? That isn't the point, the point is that they at least offer a manual on the C350 as does BMW on the 330i while Lexus doesn't on the IS350. Now just looking at it strictly from a sales point of view none of these brands except BMW would offer a stick. The fact that Lexus didn't tells me that Toyota's number crunchers nixed the idea, which does make good sense from a business point of view if the manual take rate at other brands is so small. However this does jive with what the marketers were saying.
Yeah I too think Acura will shift away from FWD, but it won't be for a while. I think the next TL/RL will share a new RWD platform and Acura may even throw in a V8 for the next RL. The RL seems to have hit a brick wall in only its second year on the market.
Lets just see how the new LS drives first. I'm sure they've made an improvement over the current LS430, how could they not? I suspect they'll offer an optional sports package this time around that people can actually find/buy. Should be interesting to say the least.
M
I just read the online chat with Bob Carter on lexus website and he clearly says they never mean to compare IS with a specific manufacturer. he does however claim that it is a much better car than 3-series, which he should as he is a Lexus group vice president.
http://www.lexus.com/about/news/is.html
Lexus never stated 3-series is the "only" or specific competitor to IS. They did however say an year ago that lexus as a whole, as a brand, should be more performance oriented like BMW to shatter the old-geezer image. It is the media which has said Lexus is targeting 3-series. And I believe you are quoting that.
As far as LS goes, to give an analogy, edmunds was surprised to know how fun to drive camry has become. If camry can do that, LS will improve its handling to a far greater extent than current LS 430.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109710/pageId=692- - - - 78
See the script under the third picture, "..fun to drive, you bet..."
Nah, it was that Danny something guy back before the IS came out. If you believe that they didn't design the IS to compete with a specific manufacturer (BMW) then you've fallen for the executalk big time. There is no way Lexus didn't aim the IS at the 3-Series. They already have the ES for the non-sports sedan crowd. The IS sole purpose is the 3-Series and possiblty G35. That guys said the same thing with the GS relative to the 5-Series.
As far as the LS430 vs the LS460 goes, how could they not improve over the LS460's handling over the LS430's? That would be very easy. BTW, the new Camry is still no drivers car compared to the sportier cars in the segment.
None of that means the LS460 will be a drivers car relative to a BMW, but we're getting ahead of ourselves here. Think about what you're saying there, a drivers car that description doesn't really fit any Lexus except arguably the IS350 but the stick-shift diehards will yowl forever that it isnt because of its auto only status. Believe me being a Mercedes fan I have to hear this too!!
M
Good night and good luck!
I think you might want to compare the 450h to the 530i since they are similarly priced given the same equipment level and they both have V6's. The GS would probably win on most counts except for trunk space.
Absolutely, merc1, and ALSO, make a V-8 engine.
M
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=7068&categoryId=21
Take the source with a grain of salt, but it does reconfirm what most, but not all, of our HELM posters have predicted . . . a 90K - 100K price range. I, personally do not agree with an $89K base. As many of you know, I am already on record with my prediction of $91,350.
I'm not sure what this Lexus board is predicting, but since many of the posters are the same folks as on the HELM board, I would imagine a similar concensus.
Interesting is the information about the vehicle being built in ONE configuration, which makes both good marketing and production sense, IMO.
TagMan