But Lexus had to recall 57,000 cars for seat belts and I worry that rising volume in US would create more quality control problems.
But, the flip side is that no one ever got hurt, as I understand it. I am always troubled that manufacturers get smacked around when there is a recall. The alternative is worse . . . that they wait until there is a serious incident, as GM has done in the past.
I highly praise those manufacturers that recall their vehicles for fixes, however minor. Do these services go down in the logbooks and work against them? Will Consumer Reports now have this as a statistical service problem, even though Lexus did the right thing to recall those 57K vehicles when there was not one single incident of anyone getting hurt? It's a dilemna, isn't it? Keep it a secret or risk the statistical ding!
Regarding the quality concerns you mention - I recently posted similar concerns that the complexity and quantity of so much technology in one vehicle like the LS600hL raises the likelihood of service issues. Possibly so, but it comes with the territory, and who but Lexus could do it better? I truly think MB is on the right path, but as much as I love MB, I don't think they will ever be MORE reliable than Lexus. They will reasonably close the gap for sure.
So, with the Lexus history of ultra reliability, it will still be the best game in town, if reliability is your concern. Of course, if you are willing to concede a little reliability, there are other choices out there that deliver lots of style and good ol' F-U-N. But you WILL sacrifice some level of reliability. That's just the way it is, don't you agree?
"But Lexus had to recall 57,000 cars for seat belts and I worry that rising volume in US would create more quality control problems."
Lexus recalled about 15,000 2004 LS430s for transmission and fuel pump replacements. They choose to replace the transmission with new transmissions rather than try and fix the existing transmission. The work was accomplished in one day, the dealer filled the tank with gas. Later, Lexus sent me a Chevron Gift Certificate for $200 and hoped that the "recall" had not caused me an inconvenience.
Someone posted (can't find it right now) that there would be no adaptive headlights on the new LS. Is this for the LS460 or is it the LS600h? Also, what it the purpose of adding the letter "L" as in LS600hL? Isn't it obvious that the LS600h will have a long wheelbase?
Oh I didn't take issue with you and that statement, I'm not even sure if I know what he was talking about. I'm guessing he means that BMW should force Hybrids on people and he is assuming that people don't really want them? If so then yeah he should have kept his mouth closed on that one. Still though you guys act like only German car executives say stupid things when they clearly aren't alone in that regard.
I just received my hard copy of the brochure. Smoky Granite Mica is a dark metallic green, Verdigris Mica is lighter green metallic, Truffle Mica is a grey metallic. The grey color had green tones in it when it was light but now under the light I do not see the green and is just grey. That was the most interesting color to me. There are two blacks (obsidian and black sapphire pearl). I am sorry Lexus but my eyes do not see the difference. They are just the same color and none of them are metallic. The black opal is exclusive to 600h which I believe is the same color as the show car in NY. Almost black but with a hint of blue or purple. The interesting color of the light colors is the Mercury Metallic which is between Opaline Pearl (silver) and Heirloom Pearl (pearl white).
There are two blacks (obsidian and black sapphire pearl). I am sorry Lexus but my eyes do not see the difference. They are just the same color and none of them are metallic. The black opal is exclusive to 600h which I believe is the same color as the show car in NY. Almost black but with a hint of blue or purple.
I am going to speculate that under direct sunlight, and with paint as it is applied in the actual paint process used for cars (rather than brochures), these colors will look more differentiated. For instance I have seen some pictures of the black opal NY autoshow car that look more purplish where the light is strongest. I also suspect that the sapphire pearl is going to turn out looking a dark blue in direct sunlight and near-black when overcast.
No doubt they are the best in the game. I also hope the driving dynamics will significantly close the gap with S550 and 750/760 to pacify the slalom lovers.
It is hoped that the potential german only customers who had severe allergies to Lexus LS will now be more comfortable in and around it.
It seems like BMW's next V8 for 7-series will churn out at least 400 hp. And V12 will exceed 500 hp.
I have the hardcopy brochure now and the Black Opal looks dark purple to me (not just a hint of purple), while the Obsidian and Black Sapphire Pearl look an identical black (I think a limitation of the printing process for the brochure).
I know it is a wee bit early to be thinking of this, but down the pike some of you will be laying down some green for a shiny new LS600hL. While the vehicle may initially be a slam dunk, consider what could happen if there is a significant technology shift or further industry advancement after a number of years.
Specificaly, the LS600hL will be first sold let's say approximately in April 2007. A typical four or five year finance or lease contract would end 2011 or 2012. By that time, it is entirely conceivable that engine and/or powertrain technology could be either different or approaching different, or already evolved/advanced/improved enough to threaten the resale of a vehicle like the LS600hL.
With that in mind, a lease may be the best bet. Not just for the usual reasons, but also for the increased insurance against what I would call potential partial obsolescence.
With a lease contract, you could walk away from a vehicle that may very well have become partially outdated from a technological standpoint. It sounds safer and smarter to me, given the climate of rapid technological advancements, improvements and changes.
I am suggesting that it may be prudent to beware of and avoid any purchase finance contract or any outright purchase of the LS600hL, and only LEASE this vehicle for the reasons I have given, no matter what you might have done in the past.
This makes sense but it isn't terribly different from the situation 2 or 4 or 6 years ago when considering a new vehicle, because there are always improvements coming down the pike in performance and safety and new technologies generally.
To Dennykrane. Thanks for the info.on when Lexus 460LS will be in the showrooms. I am looking to buy either this or a Mercedes( I own one now ) or a BMW Oct or Nov. I doubt if I will be able to deal on a Lexus that early. I have said in other postings that I live in Pittsburgh, Pa area 9 months of the year--3 months in central florida(snowbird). I did not pay full sticker on my Mercedes bought in the Pittsburgh area and do not intend to pay full sticker on another automobile. I will buy in either area. Any good suggestions in buying one of these automobiles in that time frame would be helpful. I don't mind chasing down good leads with my computer or phone. I will open up my e-mail to you if you have anything not allowed on this posting. All you have to do is ask. I have check on how to do this. Again thanks to you and anyone else who can help. As you can see I am planning way ahead.
Good luck getting a deal on a newly redesigned car that might prove to be fairly popular. You might have to pay list.
If I were you I would try the South FL dealers...that is a very competitive market (along with southern CA) and likely to have the best prices, assuming that any dealers are discounting the LS in that timeframe.
As hard as it may be, buying the changeover LS460 will cost you dearly. If you can wait at least six months, things will lighten up. Waiting until 2007 would allow for some kinks to be fixed...there will be some.
There will be a base level LS600HL with AWD only. So you will be able to take this car in its version of stripped at a very reasonable price. There is definitely a Lexus V12 in the future that will be priced in the $110-130K range. The $102K LS600HL is a bells and whistles car for the Hollywood and chaffeured crowd. Apparently Lexus is looking to change the dynamics of this whole segment with that pricing. I asked about volume and was told that updated research indicates that 60-70% of LS cars to be sold will be LWB. But they would not give me any data on number of LS600HL's that will be made so I am still fearful of well above sticker prices. But I was told there will be enough volume at the low end of the LS600HL and that the bigger fear is whether the supply for the $102K car will be sufficient.
The car was viewed in awe by everyone that was looking at it when i was there.
Oh, I'd lease it - for the reasons you mentioned, tagman, but moreso, because this car will be so sizzlin' hot, the residual on the car will be enormously high, making the payment very lowwwwwwww..........
Spectacular. The car is far better looking in person than on paper. When you see it in person you'll also see that there is no resemblance whatsoever to a 7-series the way some were posting when it was first unveiled. Everyone at the show seemed to love this car. They better make about 40-50K of them across the board next year because they should have no problem selling that many at those prices.
Lexus strategy became very clear today. They are going to make V12 like cars affordable to the low end rich and big income people and they are going to make $120-150K cars for the higher end wealth. That was the key to the strategy on pricing this hybrid. It is indeed their uppermost car but it's tenure at that spot will be short lived. All of us were thinking this is the ultimate Lexus car - it's not - something more wicked is coming soon with probably 600HP.
I am trying to go back to the show on Saturday. I had very little time to really enjoy the show today as we were entertaining an out of town client. Ray Catena sent me 4 tickets to the show for my family for Saturday but some health matters in my extended family may not allow me to get there.
lj - thanks for the feedback so far. Glad to hear the 600 is even more beautiful in person. And the price is about as we all figured. Sounds like Ray Catena knows how to treat a good customer! Hope the extended family's health works out. Keep us posted . . . I'm looking forward to more reports from you.
Thanks ljflx! This is really good info. I have a "stupid" question. What is the purpose of the letter "L" in LS600HL? Is it not obvious that this will be a long wheelbase vehicle? It seems redundant.
Greetings Tagman, you seem to know a lot about leasing vs. buying. I am 8th on my dealers list for this car. I am torn between buying and leasing. I am hoping to get a lioghtly equiped Ls460swb for under 65k. My plans were to keep the car for several years, but considering first year bugs and having to pay list, and high residuals, I might be better off leasing, and buying one three years later for a lower price. What is your advise, and what kind of lease payment would you guess i would end up with for 3 years 15,000 miles a year?
According to the US Lexus site, the 600 has the following options: Four Zone Air Rear Seat Climate Control Four Seat Configuration Cruise Control Pre Crash I estimate the price of these options to be about $10K. So if base 600 is $82K, fully loaded one is $92K. I believe that is a reasonable price for the high end Lexus. Moving from current high end LS of 70K. Then will come the LF-A @ about $110K and the bigger sedan to follow at 120K. But one should ask what can the bigger (more expensive) sedan possibly offer more than the 600? I have always questioned the German's ultra high end cars (Ms, AMGs, and the V12s). Why would someone spend that amount of money on a car that can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a less powerful model? You say because they can. I say why not move to a more premium brand like Bentley, AM, Ferrari, etc. You say they probably have one of each. I say you are probably right! So sky is the limit for Lexus.
landi - they told me point blank that the loaded hybrid will be $102K. That would include a 19" DVD player. The LF-A is going to be a lot more than $110K. It's target is the $120-150K market along with the car that will come in over the LS. Lexus is really loading things up for a continuation of exciting car intros after this worldwide debut. I'll tell you the power of Toyota's cash register is very apparent. They are out to blitz the world now. I'm glad I don't compete with them.
"I have always questioned the German's ultra high end cars (Ms, AMGs, and the V12s). Why would someone spend that amount of money on a car that can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a less powerful model? "
Because their (Lexus) market research says there is demand for Lexus to enter this price arena.
Cyclone - I asked that today and they said it was to signify the LWB. It's a real longshot but apparently a SWB AWD hybrid is not entirely ruled out as yet. It is a very low probability here but it seems that it may happen elsewhere.
There will be four versions of the LS but only three sold in N.A.(460,460L, 600h L) So thats why the LS600h L will be dubbed that way but I understand your point. Other places in the world will have the SWB LS600h.
Greetings Tagman, you seem to know a lot about leasing vs. buying.
What is your advise, and what kind of lease payment would you guess i would end up with for 3 years 15,000 miles a year? . . . . on a lightly equiped Ls460swb for under 65k
Thanks. I have not leased that exact vehicle, but others here have done so. So . . . it makes sense to pass the torch on your question to those others. If no one helps you out, I'll be glad to, but I'll bet that someone will.
Yep - sorry I meant to say 9" DVD player and 19 speaker stereo.
BTW - on colors here's my take:
Black sapphire pearl is a black with a hint of dark blue, very rich color.
Black Opal is midnight blue and very dark - but clearly a blue.
Obsidian is the genuine black color.
Smoky granite metallic - looks like a knockout color - this is an extremely dark gray color bordering on black and even has a hint of very dark brown. My initial first choice color. I've seen one or two past generation S-class in this type of color (I'm sure it's an MB special order color) and love it.
Truffle Mica - could be a sleeper color - looks great but have to see it on the car.
Mercury metallic - this is a whitish silver and it's confusing as Mercury metallic in the past has been Lexus silver color.
Heirloom pearl is the white color; Opaline pearl appears to be the new silver.
Verdigris Mica - another possible sleeper color in a rich dark forrest green. Looks like a rich color but it has to be seen on the car.
Golden almond metallic (gold cashmere color) and noble spinel mica (burgundy shade of red) are my bottom choices but the latter may look interesting on the car.
BTW - the S-class looks great from the side view but the car falls short to me from a side frontal view and most definitely a side rear view. The wheel arches are too massive and the trunk is just too bulky and disconnected. The front of the car is nice and sleek but that back is massive and seems like a different car was pasted onto the front end. It's not that it's bad or ugly but IMO MB just missed the styling on this car and went too Maybach like with the back of the car. My honest opinion is that MB is being pulled into a few different styling directions right now but I don't know why. If I had to guess I'd say they are still trying to justify their Maybach styling which has always been questionable.
On the S - ONLY minor complaint for me is the trunk. You know it bugs me, as I've mentioned it before. It's definately Bangled, and the Maybach carry-over you mentioned is without a doubt correct. Problem is, that it doesn't really work seemlessly with the rest of the car and does look disconnected as you appropriately put it. It's not horrible, IMO, but there is no way to ignore it either. Perhaps it will grow on us as the car becomes seen more on a regular basis.
I think the new LS has clean design lines that don't necessarily send my pulse racing, but on the other hand, the car is truly very attractive, and as always, will be a terrific value.
Since you have learned and revealed that the loaded LS600hL is going to slide into the 6-digit arena, it now really makes me want to know more about their new flagship car that is in the pipeline. Heck, if we're already talking 100 large ones for an LS badge, then I really MUST know about the "killer" car. Coming from Lexus, you and I know it will be sensational. Possibly a car that would cost tons more if it were from another marque. It could set a whole new standard in luxury and performance for its price category. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see it blow everything else away.
Have fun tomorrow if you make it back to the show.
That's why I say MB just missed it. The silhouette of the car is perfect (hence the side view looks so good), the details are the problem. They'll probably nail it on the refresh.
The feeling I got is that the higher end Lexus is going to be a $175-200K Bentley like car at $125-135K S600 type prices. There wasn't any detail at all on that car but it came up in discussions we had with a very knowledgable Lexus rep. Basically it will be longer than the LS (but it also may have a shorter coupe version), that it will be a V12 and reach 600HP or better and be a techno powerhouse.
On the LS I almost got the feeling that the LS600L may be a short lived car. It was almost as if they were making this car to fill the time gap to next March when the hybrid hits and to make it available to anyone that is not yet ready for hybrids. I think AWD is not even an option on the car because if you added AWD you'd be almost up to the LS600HL starting price.
Gas - I think oil's a bit of a bubble and I'm almost starting to think Iran is playing a game here to drive oil prices higher. If you really were that far advanced why would you go public with it??
I have always had dark colors but this time I want to get a light color such as silver. Mercury metallic seems to be the one as long as it comes with a light colored interior. I do not like black interiors as black tends to make the space seem smaller. I wish though, that I can see the smoky granite before my final decision. In Canada the same USA colors are called by different names (at least I am hoping that the actual colors are the same). My question is, what are your thoughts on a light color for a prestige car. This would be my third LS, previous two were dark green.
Going by the specs it looks like the moonroof will open to the outside of the roof, to give space for the DVD system etc. Any disadvantages to this such as wind noise?
LS600HL. Timing is perfect as my lease ends late March next year. I actually called my dealer today (I was already wait listed but I told him this was a done deal) and told him to make sure there's one with my name on it right at that time and I picked that smoke color as my preference out of three colors.
MB has to reprove it's old reliability standards to me before they get me in a mainstream car. But in lux cars both MB and Lexus are my standards. Both hit the sweetspot perfectly as far as I'm concerned. The MB I covet is the SL and when my business hits a certain number it'll be in my garage - unless the LF-A blows me away or Lexus brings the SC up to the SL level. If that happens then I'll have to do some rigorous testing.
I am going to New York on the final day and will reply to you after observing everything first hand.
There is little doubt that this behemoth will be a technological marvel, but from ultra ($100K+) market standpoint I am not sure how much market penetration it will have.
Speculations are hazardous, only time will tell.
Will relay my messages to all of you including Tagman, Ljglx, merc1, and all fiends (sorry if I forgot someone)
The Top 1% market (vehicles above $65K) has only 9% Japanese (95% Lexus) share. So Lexus will have to work really hard to increase its share of the pie.
The germans are charging full steam in their panzers, and life is not going to be easy for every one else including Maserati.
I just came from the local dealer and he had a big surprize! He said after the V8 LS, a V10 (LS500) will be released about december-January. He called it ultra ultra in the $120K range. What do guys know about this? I had guessed the LS500 was coming but I thought for sure it would be after LF-A. BTW he said in 24 months the LF-A would be here. He also talked about the whole range of ISs including IS500 and hardtop convertible 2 door coup. Lexus is going nuts with cars but no news on the SUVs at all.
I don't see how this could all be. If you look at the available lexus.com options on the 600hL, there are about 5. If you look at the available options on the 460L, it is those same 5, plus another 6 or so. So logically the price range on the 460L should be wider than on the 600hL. Yet here it is only 7k on the 460L and 20k on the 600hL. Something isn't right.
I would have thought that, based on the option picture, a loaded 460L might even overlap, pricewise, with a base 600hL.
Very interesting and consistent with what ljflx said about a higher-end LS coming.
Not sure what a V10 is going to offer besides 2 cyl, versus the LS600hL, to make it worth a 20k-ish price difference. Supercharging or turbocharging? More wood? More/better leather? Sounds like a ICE, non-hybrid (from the name LS500). I wonder why they would call it 500 yet price it higher than a 600hL? Maybe its an AMG-type car?
The range of ISs has already been widely speculated and pretty much accepted.
I'd like them to update/replace the LX soon too, and/or introduce a R-Class type vehicle (but with 7 or 8 seats) but I expect it won't come soon enough for my family...we'll end up in a 2007 MDX or Sienna or possibly GL (and maybe diesel at that) if I can get confidence in MB quality.
Syswei - They are almost looking at the LS460L as a car for people that are not ready for hybrids. I don't think they have a concern on price and I have a feeling the only fully optioned LS460L's you'll ever see are custom ordered cars. Otherwise expect this car to come in with the normal options of nav and ML and be about 74K. If you can load it to the hilt you'll likely reach the low 80's but you'll need to get to the low 100's if you load up the 600HL the same way. Would you prefer a loaded LS460L or a base LS600HL if you were to lay out $82K. I can easily see people who'd go for the first one.
Landi - I pursued pricing and the V12 Lexus that has long been rumored when I was at the show. The rep I talked to said there would be a stream of exciting cars coming from Lexus after the worldwide intro. That could just be another one. That is probably the same V10 that is going into the LF-A. But the V12 I was told about is a car apart from and above the LS not the car you are describing. I have a feeling your car is the first tuned LS that Lexus will bring out. As I said before the power of Toyota's cash register was readily apparent at that auto show.
That's what I asked the guy too, another LS? What can they possibly add to the features of the 460 and 600? Yes more power but what else? He said it is ultra ultra luxury. Whatever that is. The sport model seems the logical explanation.
I need an SUV too. But just like you, none of the Lexus SUV offerings are appealing to me. I am excited about the Q7 but I rather not go German. I have no time for headaches.
Just checked the JDP ratings for the 2005 and 2006 M-Class...the GL will be out of the same factory and of course is based on the M. Lousy quality and dependability ratings, so forget that GL idea for me.
"I need an SUV too. But just like you, none of the Lexus SUV offerings are appealing to me. I am excited about the Q7 but I rather not go German. I have no time for headaches."
I have the same issue. Frankly, I still think Ford has the best SUV designs on the planet. Nissan has copied them so far, and Mercedes just arrived with their new one, but Toyota has neglected their SUV engineering. The product is good, but out of date. Unless Lexus gets an SUV with the seats that power fold into the flat floor, I'm not ready to buy one, and will stay with Lincoln or Mercury until then. The Nissan offerings have more quality and repair issues than the Ford's do.
Comments
Maybe they'll save an AWD LS460 or LS500 for the mid-cycle refresh.
I need AWD too and am afraid I'll have to choose between the LS600 and S450/550 (and 750Li if they add AWD).
But, the flip side is that no one ever got hurt, as I understand it. I am always troubled that manufacturers get smacked around when there is a recall. The alternative is worse . . . that they wait until there is a serious incident, as GM has done in the past.
I highly praise those manufacturers that recall their vehicles for fixes, however minor. Do these services go down in the logbooks and work against them? Will Consumer Reports now have this as a statistical service problem, even though Lexus did the right thing to recall those 57K vehicles when there was not one single incident of anyone getting hurt? It's a dilemna, isn't it? Keep it a secret or risk the statistical ding!
Regarding the quality concerns you mention - I recently posted similar concerns that the complexity and quantity of so much technology in one vehicle like the LS600hL raises the likelihood of service issues. Possibly so, but it comes with the territory, and who but Lexus could do it better? I truly think MB is on the right path, but as much as I love MB, I don't think they will ever be MORE reliable than Lexus. They will reasonably close the gap for sure.
So, with the Lexus history of ultra reliability, it will still be the best game in town, if reliability is your concern. Of course, if you are willing to concede a little reliability, there are other choices out there that deliver lots of style and good ol' F-U-N. But you WILL sacrifice some level of reliability. That's just the way it is, don't you agree?
TagMan
Lexus recalled about 15,000 2004 LS430s for transmission and fuel pump replacements. They choose to replace the transmission with new transmissions rather than try and fix the existing transmission. The work was accomplished in one day, the dealer filled the tank with gas. Later, Lexus sent me a Chevron Gift Certificate for $200 and hoped that the "recall" had not caused me an inconvenience.
M
I am going to speculate that under direct sunlight, and with paint as it is applied in the actual paint process used for cars (rather than brochures), these colors will look more differentiated. For instance I have seen some pictures of the black opal NY autoshow car that look more purplish where the light is strongest. I also suspect that the sapphire pearl is going to turn out looking a dark blue in direct sunlight and near-black when overcast.
It is hoped that the potential german only customers who had severe allergies to Lexus LS will now be more comfortable in and around it.
It seems like BMW's next V8 for 7-series will churn out at least 400 hp. And V12 will exceed 500 hp.
1 - obsidian? (pure black?)
2 - black sapphire pearl? (black w/ hint of blue?)
3 - black opal? (black w/ hint of purple?)
Is all that correct?
Well sir you need to visit www.bmwusa.com and see the 2006 760iL and that nice 6.0 liter makes 438hp.
A8 W12 makes450 hp with 6-speed Tiptronic automatic transmission and quattro all-wheel drive
And Audi has some of lowest hp in its classes. Please the Cadillac STS-V(469) makes more hp than Audi or BMW 2006 V12s.
Why must people hate Lexus. Like the old saying goes "people hate the best." And yeah its HYRIB V8 not V12!
Specificaly, the LS600hL will be first sold let's say approximately in April 2007. A typical four or five year finance or lease contract would end 2011 or 2012. By that time, it is entirely conceivable that engine and/or powertrain technology could be either different or approaching different, or already evolved/advanced/improved enough to threaten the resale of a vehicle like the LS600hL.
With that in mind, a lease may be the best bet. Not just for the usual reasons, but also for the increased insurance against what I would call potential partial obsolescence.
With a lease contract, you could walk away from a vehicle that may very well have become partially outdated from a technological standpoint. It sounds safer and smarter to me, given the climate of rapid technological advancements, improvements and changes.
I am suggesting that it may be prudent to beware of and avoid any purchase finance contract or any outright purchase of the LS600hL, and only LEASE this vehicle for the reasons I have given, no matter what you might have done in the past.
TagMan
If I were you I would try the South FL dealers...that is a very competitive market (along with southern CA) and likely to have the best prices, assuming that any dealers are discounting the LS in that timeframe.
LS460 - 65K
LS460L - 68-75K
LS600HL - 82-102K
There will be a base level LS600HL with AWD only. So you will be able to take this car in its version of stripped at a very reasonable price. There is definitely a Lexus V12 in the future that will be priced in the $110-130K range. The $102K LS600HL is a bells and whistles car for the Hollywood and chaffeured crowd. Apparently Lexus is looking to change the dynamics of this whole segment with that pricing. I asked about volume and was told that updated research indicates that 60-70% of LS cars to be sold will be LWB. But they would not give me any data on number of LS600HL's that will be made so I am still fearful of well above sticker prices. But I was told there will be enough volume at the low end of the LS600HL and that the bigger fear is whether the supply for the $102K car will be sufficient.
The car was viewed in awe by everyone that was looking at it when i was there.
Lexus strategy became very clear today. They are going to make V12 like cars affordable to the low end rich and big income people and they are going to make $120-150K cars for the higher end wealth. That was the key to the strategy on pricing this hybrid. It is indeed their uppermost car but it's tenure at that spot will be short lived. All of us were thinking this is the ultimate Lexus car - it's not - something more wicked is coming soon with probably 600HP.
I am trying to go back to the show on Saturday. I had very little time to really enjoy the show today as we were entertaining an out of town client. Ray Catena sent me 4 tickets to the show for my family for Saturday but some health matters in my extended family may not allow me to get there.
TagMan
Four Zone Air
Rear Seat Climate Control
Four Seat Configuration
Cruise Control
Pre Crash
I estimate the price of these options to be about $10K. So if base 600 is $82K, fully loaded one is $92K. I believe that is a reasonable price for the high end Lexus. Moving from current high end LS of 70K. Then will come the LF-A @ about $110K and the bigger sedan to follow at 120K. But one should ask what can the bigger (more expensive) sedan possibly offer more than the 600?
I have always questioned the German's ultra high end cars (Ms, AMGs, and the V12s). Why would someone spend that amount of money on a car that can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a less powerful model? You say because they can. I say why not move to a more premium brand like Bentley, AM, Ferrari, etc. You say they probably have one of each. I say you are probably right! So sky is the limit for Lexus.
"I have always questioned the German's ultra high end cars (Ms, AMGs, and the V12s). Why would someone spend that amount of money on a car that can be had for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of a less powerful model? "
Because their (Lexus) market research says there is demand for Lexus to enter this price arena.
Cyclone - I asked that today and they said it was to signify the LWB. It's a real longshot but apparently a SWB AWD hybrid is not entirely ruled out as yet. It is a very low probability here but it seems that it may happen elsewhere.
What is your advise, and what kind of lease payment would you guess i would end up with for 3 years 15,000 miles a year? . . . . on a lightly equiped Ls460swb for under 65k
Thanks. I have not leased that exact vehicle, but others here have done so. So . . . it makes sense to pass the torch on your question to those others. If no one helps you out, I'll be glad to, but I'll bet that someone will.
TagMan
lj - don't you mean a NINE-inch DVD monitor?
TagMan
BTW - on colors here's my take:
Black sapphire pearl is a black with a hint of dark blue, very rich color.
Black Opal is midnight blue and very dark - but clearly a blue.
Obsidian is the genuine black color.
Smoky granite metallic - looks like a knockout color - this is an extremely dark gray color bordering on black and even has a hint of very dark brown. My initial first choice color. I've seen one or two past generation S-class in this type of color (I'm sure it's an MB special order color) and love it.
Truffle Mica - could be a sleeper color - looks great but have to see it on the car.
Mercury metallic - this is a whitish silver and it's confusing as Mercury metallic in the past has been Lexus silver color.
Heirloom pearl is the white color; Opaline pearl appears to be the new silver.
Verdigris Mica - another possible sleeper color in a rich dark forrest green. Looks like a rich color but it has to be seen on the car.
Golden almond metallic (gold cashmere color) and noble spinel mica (burgundy shade of red) are my bottom choices but the latter may look interesting on the car.
BTW - the S-class looks great from the side view but the car falls short to me from a side frontal view and most definitely a side rear view. The wheel arches are too massive and the trunk is just too bulky and disconnected. The front of the car is nice and sleek but that back is massive and seems like a different car was pasted onto the front end. It's not that it's bad or ugly but IMO MB just missed the styling on this car and went too Maybach like with the back of the car. My honest opinion is that MB is being pulled into a few different styling directions right now but I don't know why. If I had to guess I'd say they are still trying to justify their Maybach styling which has always been questionable.
I think the new LS has clean design lines that don't necessarily send my pulse racing, but on the other hand, the car is truly very attractive, and as always, will be a terrific value.
Since you have learned and revealed that the loaded LS600hL is going to slide into the 6-digit arena, it now really makes me want to know more about their new flagship car that is in the pipeline. Heck, if we're already talking 100 large ones for an LS badge, then I really MUST know about the "killer" car. Coming from Lexus, you and I know it will be sensational. Possibly a car that would cost tons more if it were from another marque. It could set a whole new standard in luxury and performance for its price category. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see it blow everything else away.
Have fun tomorrow if you make it back to the show.
BTW, what's your take on the price of gas?
TagMan
That's why I say MB just missed it. The silhouette of the car is perfect (hence the side view looks so good), the details are the problem. They'll probably nail it on the refresh.
The feeling I got is that the higher end Lexus is going to be a $175-200K Bentley like car at $125-135K S600 type prices. There wasn't any detail at all on that car but it came up in discussions we had with a very knowledgable Lexus rep. Basically it will be longer than the LS (but it also may have a shorter coupe version), that it will be a V12 and reach 600HP or better and be a techno powerhouse.
On the LS I almost got the feeling that the LS600L may be a short lived car. It was almost as if they were making this car to fill the time gap to next March when the hybrid hits and to make it available to anyone that is not yet ready for hybrids. I think AWD is not even an option on the car because if you added AWD you'd be almost up to the LS600HL starting price.
Gas - I think oil's a bit of a bubble and I'm almost starting to think Iran is playing a game here to drive oil prices higher. If you really were that far advanced why would you go public with it??
Going by the specs it looks like the moonroof will open to the outside of the roof, to give space for the DVD system etc. Any disadvantages to this such as wind noise?
MB has to reprove it's old reliability standards to me before they get me in a mainstream car. But in lux cars both MB and Lexus are my standards. Both hit the sweetspot perfectly as far as I'm concerned. The MB I covet is the SL and when my business hits a certain number it'll be in my garage - unless the LF-A blows me away or Lexus brings the SC up to the SL level. If that happens then I'll have to do some rigorous testing.
There is little doubt that this behemoth will be a technological marvel, but from ultra ($100K+) market standpoint I am not sure how much market penetration it will have.
Speculations are hazardous, only time will tell.
Will relay my messages to all of you including Tagman, Ljglx, merc1, and all fiends (sorry if I forgot someone)
The Top 1% market (vehicles above $65K) has only 9% Japanese (95% Lexus) share. So Lexus will have to work really hard to increase its share of the pie.
The germans are charging full steam in their panzers, and life is not going to be easy for every one else including Maserati.
LS460L - 68-75K
LS600HL - 82-102K
I don't see how this could all be. If you look at the available lexus.com options on the 600hL, there are about 5. If you look at the available options on the 460L, it is those same 5, plus another 6 or so. So logically the price range on the 460L should be wider than on the 600hL. Yet here it is only 7k on the 460L and 20k on the 600hL. Something isn't right.
I would have thought that, based on the option picture, a loaded 460L might even overlap, pricewise, with a base 600hL.
Not sure what a V10 is going to offer besides 2 cyl, versus the LS600hL, to make it worth a 20k-ish price difference. Supercharging or turbocharging? More wood? More/better leather? Sounds like a ICE, non-hybrid (from the name LS500). I wonder why they would call it 500 yet price it higher than a 600hL? Maybe its an AMG-type car?
The range of ISs has already been widely speculated and pretty much accepted.
I'd like them to update/replace the LX soon too, and/or introduce a R-Class type vehicle (but with 7 or 8 seats) but I expect it won't come soon enough for my family...we'll end up in a 2007 MDX or Sienna or possibly GL (and maybe diesel at that) if I can get confidence in MB quality.
Landi - I pursued pricing and the V12 Lexus that has long been rumored when I was at the show. The rep I talked to said there would be a stream of exciting cars coming from Lexus after the worldwide intro. That could just be another one. That is probably the same V10 that is going into the LF-A. But the V12 I was told about is a car apart from and above the LS not the car you are describing. I have a feeling your car is the first tuned LS that Lexus will bring out. As I said before the power of Toyota's cash register was readily apparent at that auto show.
I need an SUV too. But just like you, none of the Lexus SUV offerings are appealing to me. I am excited about the Q7 but I rather not go German. I have no time for headaches.
Yes, my wife knows someone who has had terrible problems with a Cayenne and wants to get rid of it, so I too cast a wary eye toward the Q7.
But if MB has improved enough in its reliability, the GL might be interesting, especially in diesel form.
I have the same issue. Frankly, I still think Ford has the best SUV designs on the planet. Nissan has copied them so far, and Mercedes just arrived with their new one, but Toyota has neglected their SUV engineering. The product is good, but out of date. Unless Lexus gets an SUV with the seats that power fold into the flat floor, I'm not ready to buy one, and will stay with Lincoln or Mercury until then. The Nissan offerings have more quality and repair issues than the Ford's do.