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Comments
garyh1 - Perhaps the traditional badging has historically been based upon displacement, but times have changed, and since this engine is married to electric motors, it makes the overall powerplant more than just that 5.0 liter engine itself, and logically the 600 designation refers to the "sum" of all power components, ICE and electric combined.
To have used a 500 designation would have been to neglect the added power from the elecric motors. I think the 600 designation is therefore a good choice, regardless of what Mercedes does.
But, it's a winner either way, isn't it?
TagMan
Like tagman, I do think the 600hL is a car to beat, and it will be a great one in Lexus' drive to even greater sales in the NA market. Can Lexus replicate the success formula in Europe and Asia ? This is the key question...
And gary: your use of the word "litre" betrays you a tad... Here in the US, we use "liter"... Hmmmm ! do I sense some British or Euro tinge to your writing style ?
1. Value
2. Power + Value
The 380HP LS460 seems to be ready to match an S550, power to power, feature to feature, wheelbase to wheelbase, and may one up it in style, yet cost $20-25k less, similarly equipped.
The LS600h can be priced right on top of the S550 ($90's), while providing more power, more standard features, and more economy, plus a hint of exclusivity with a Hybrid powertrain.
If you shop both Lexus and Benz dealers, the Lexus dealer can show you how one Lexus is a much better value, and how another Lexus makes the S550 a poor investment, if not obsolete.
Why go over there, pay the same money (or more), and get less power, eat more gas, and pay extra for features you get standard in a 600h?
Maybe Lexus also doesn't see much of a market for an LS priced over $100k, when you will see plenty on the street sold for under $75k. Stretching one model $40-50k, maybe they don't see a "Business case" for that.
I don't see any car from Lexus becoming MORe opulent than a 600h, unless the seats will actually be made out of adjustable Cocoa Butter!
BTW, my C&D quotes a 4.2 0-60 time this month for the S600, with 16 MPG.
I see the 600h getting just under 5 seconds, with 21-22 MPG, while staying approx. $40k under the S600s $143k price tag.
Time will reveal.
DrFill
Yes . . . key question. My opinion:
Replication of U.S. formula won't work.
Very different markets. Different formula required.
TagMan
But, it's a winner either way, isn't it?
Agreed that "LS 500hL" would have understated the value of the electric motor, but there are lots of numbers above 500 that could have been used. I still think that Lexus didn't miss the significance of the number 600 in the MB lineup when they made their choice.
Is it a winner? I will be able to answer that more definitively after (a) it has been driven by someone who can report if its driving dynamics are good enough to compete in the upper reaches of this class, (b) we find out whether all of its electronics are as reliable as previous Lexi have been, (c) it is priced reasonably attractively, and (d) how much trunk space is lost to batteries - and will the limited life of the batteries themselves ruin resale value.
To me, I would be happy with a LS 460 if only it was available with AWD. But the good news is that my wonderful wife just told me this week that if I want the next new car, she will be willing to take my current '05 LS430. Now the question is, do I really want to be a two LS family? And do I want another car without AWD, or spend a lot of extra money for a car (LS600hL) that is larger and more powerful than I need, just to get AWD.
Who knows, maybe I'll wait for an MB S450 4matic to come out - if I can get beyond the ugly butt and wheel flares. But only if I can be convinced that it is reasonably reliable.
You are correct when you suggest that Lexus did not miss the significance, and going beyond the engine displacement for the product designation is also very logical in this vehicle's case.
Sounds like you really must have that AWD!!!!
If you've already got a sedan in the family, why not go with a coupe or something else?
TagMan
No, I'm just originally from exotic upstate New York. I first wrote "liter", but it looked too much like a size of soft drink bottle. "Litre" looked more correct, since it is really European in derivation (remember when US engines were measured in "cubic inches"?).
Sorry if it came off as "putting on airs"!
I just hate to be stuck in the snow the few times a year it happens in this area (DC).
If you've already got a sedan in the family, why not go with a coupe or something else?
Well, 2 reasons really: (1) I have a bad back (failed surgery), and unfortunately no longer can get comfortable in a low slung sporty car - maybe a Cayenne would work for me, but a big SUV never has appealed to me; and (2) I carry business associates in my back seat, and need room and easy access for them. My LS is meeting both of those needs beautifully, but I agree with merc1 that the styling of the current LS is unexciting (to put it politely). The '07 seems to be a big improvement in that regard.
As some of you may remember (I asked for expert guidance at the LS board....), I was trying to buy the last LS430 at an MSRP discount since LS will switch to the Lexus brand with the LS460 (currently in Japan LS430 sports the proleteriat Toyota badge) - I told my dealer that come a 15% discount from MSRP and I would put the cash on the table.
Well, he came back to me yesterday to tell me that Toyota has more or less stopped production of LS430, so no discounts would be available. I countered him with "surely this is not possible since they need to make something on the production line" logic - to which he said that the LS460 demand was beyond Toyota's expectation so production lines are being ramped for that.
Dont know if this is indeed true, but just for information...at least the LS430 end of line discount strategy is not working here...
??? I guess the marketing folk should be running their stuff through engineering before sending things out. I assume they meant to say the ICE portion of the 600hL is a 5-liter 405hp unit.
Ouch !!! There goes any thought of a discount off MSRP for the LS460 for the foreseeable future. I hope Lexus doesn't try to take advantage and load up these 460 twins in the higher price brackets... Unfortunately we will not know the final pricing until a few days before release. Looks like the 460/600hL are winners long before they arrive on our shores.
Toyota/Lexus must be minting $$$ these days... Good for them.
OAC - some LS ultras were selling $5k+ over sticker in 2001 when they were initially released. It's probably going to happen again with the LS460L and the hybrid unless production is way up. The good news in the silver lining there is they are gearing up for a high production output. That's the music to my ears in that exchange.
"Toyota/Lexus must be minting $$$ these days... Good for them."
Great earnings report, increased dividend and pushing $200bln now in market cap. Just look at the change since late last year when Dewey was arguing DCX was the better stock purchase. Remember that? On the flip side though I was dead wrong on Microsoft though I think it's still a good LT play and the market badly over-reacted to investment related expenses. The key there was strong revenue growth of a behemoth but the market looked at the expense line instead. As an entrepeneur I'd parlay strong revenue growth into future product too if I was at Microsoft's lifestage. The big difference though between a manufacturer and a software developer is that it's much easier for the mfr to capitalize those costs, thereby hiding them from view in the P&L.
True fact: A recent and very interesting survey indicated that women who drive BMW's have better sex lives than those that drive other makes.
That makes me wonder if you heard the rattle from inside or outside the car? :P
TagMan
TagMan
Another laughable, pathetic post based purely on biased opinion and pure speculation with no basis in recent facts.
And by the way, how many MB's and BMW's have you seen stuck on the side of the road within the last 3 years? Quality control is up dramatically.
Why are MB and BMW sales way up? People would have to be pretty stupid to sink all that money in such poorly put together vehicles according to your scenario.
Or, more likely, they know something that you apparently don't know.
Lexus wishes it has the international prestige the "Euro has-beens" like BMW and MB have been able to muster.
I must have gotten on the Bentley page by mistake.
One would figure that if one discussed a vehicle, one would at least spell the name of the vehicle correctly.
But that's just me.
DrFill
See ya at the dealers for the test drive.
More crumpets, anyone?
Just my 2 cents.
A Honda Accord EX-6 is comfortable and reliable.
Won't see too many at the Country Club, though.
The best front legroom and seat comfort I ever found belonged to the BMW X5, but when I found out the gas mileage, I turned it down. "Settled" for the 545-not as much legroom but the comfort seats are truly that.
I also tried the GS 430 last summer and couldn't find a comfortable seating position. In addition, my right leg kept hitting the console. Then when I saw the "trunk", I was outta there!
I am looking forward to driving an LS 460 this Fall and of course will be paying close attention to the legroom and seat comfort.
Went biking this morning. Saw a 2007 Camry in gray parked in the driveway. Couldn't take my eyes off it. Huge improvement in looks. The car actually looks expensive.
Makes me even more eager to see the new LS 460. A shame they can't have one in the showroom just to see and sit in. Of course if they did that, they would have a tough time getting rid of the leftover 2006's.
Base $82K
Popular options $87K or so
Loaded with everything including pre-collision, limo rear seat/dvd etc - just over $100K.
Let's see - but demand is sky high for this car and MSRP may not matter.
BTW - I was told the car will now hit the US in January (probably late January) rather than March because demand is sky high here. I also read that somewhere too. See if you can find out. It's quite possible that the car is released to the American market before the Japanese market.
The other thing to look at is how do the current cars price out. Is the LS more expensive in Japan than here? If I remember right there is a $20K difference which could be due to taxes as well. Pricing is also set to market per capita ratios so it could also be purchasing power differentials.