Lexus LS 460/LS 460L Styling Impressions

2001gs430

One last off topic comment to clarify a point.

Well the whole point of a GS450h is to have V8 power and 6-cylinder economy right? The price of the GS450h sits in between a loaded 530i and a base 550i I assume??

I looked at the Canadian pricing and the GS450h has the same price as a 90-95%loaded 530i (not fully loaded, but similar equipment level to the 450h). On top of that, the Lex has approx 25% better city milage.

syswei

I don't believe the one configuration speculation. I think Lexus has indicated the 4-seater would be an optional configuration. And I think a very substantial portion of the market is families that might have at least occaisional need for 5 seats.

ljflx

Tagman - comes down to volume. The problem with that article is it presumes Lexus wants to sell 10-15K LS hybrids a year. So if volume is choice than I agree with them but I've read elsewhere that 50-60% of all LS cars are still anticipated to be SWB according to Lexus execs. So how much of the other 40-50% is left for the hybrid. If the volume argument is true than the supply will be good, they'll easily sell them and take away marketshare from MB as you get a lot more, plus a technology image statement for the price of an S550. Personally I see that as short-term wise and long-term foolish UNLESS there's a higher HELM in Lexus' not to distant future. But if their aim is only 2-3K cars a year than the base price will be meaningless and the price will easily jump over $100k. At the Autospies price point, demand will blow away supply.

I talked to my sales guy yesterday and he says there is a new LS brochure out and he's sending it to me. Don't know if this has much detail in it or even if it captures the LS600HL but I'll report back anything new I gleam. Consensus among sales guys in his shop is that the LS460 will be $65-68K (base car to premium luxury but short of the current ultra), the LS460L will be $72-82K (base to loaded with one model choice in between and you'll probably have to custom order a base car) and that the hybrid will hava a 3-4K production output and sell at or over $100K. That latter statement on production would seem to be in sync with Lexus execs saying 40-50% of LS cars will be LWB. I'd expect that about 15-20% of LWB sales will come from the LS600HL.

ljflx

Syswei - the ultra was originally expected to be a chaffeured car and Lexus thought it would not be in great demand. Then it debuts and the first 9 months of supply are gone in the first month. Clearly families wanted it. Did they learn from the past mistake? Maybe, maybe not. This thing is very confusing. If it's optionable than it fits a lower priced higher volume strategy. If it's not than it is aiming for a market beyond families and it will be high priced and only available one way. There is a small possibility that the car is the same in all attributes except the rear seat though so that they leave an availability to handle families of 5.

syswei

here is a scan from the brochure

specs

ljflx

"We should not try to educate or teach the customer about what he or she wants," Helmut Panke, the chief executive at BMW, said in an interview this week.

What am I missing in this statement? This has nothing to do with perfomance. It's a dumb arrogant statement that says we will give the customer what we want.

syswei

He did say "not".

syswei

I think the scan certainly supports the notion that there will be 4 and 5 seat versions, though I suppose it is conceivable (but imho very unlikely) that the 5-seater will be available in theory but not in practice.

syswei

I too think they should put AWD on the LS460L. In my case, I don't need the performance of the 600 and don't want to lose 1/3rd of my trunk space to batteries.

tagman

ljflx - Good post. I'm thinking that maybe the 4-seater and 5-seater option is in the NON-hybrid long wheelbase and the hybrid is possibly a 4-seater only?

I'm concerned that the 430+ horsepower representation is a long ways shy of 500 ponies, and that, at the end of the day, the car will maybe reach 450.

That's still remarkable and acceptable, but deep down I really hope it's more power . . . screamin' power.

TagMan

stevekilburn

Thanks, I noticed in another scan on exterior colors that there is no blue or green. That is terrible. There are many of us who like dark blue instead of black.

syswei

First of all, the scan may not be color callibrated, and your monitor may not be either. Some of the colors appear to be dark blue or dark green. But there does some to be a paucity of middle-tone colors, and an abundance of dark and light choices.

stevekilburn

He very clearly told that Lexus expects 10-15% of LS sales to be LS600hL. Which means roughly 2,500-3,000 units a year.

Jim Press also said 35% will be LWB and 65% will be SWB. The LWB sales will be conquest sales from 7-series and S-class.

I think the price gap between SWB and LWB will not be more than $4,000. If LWB will start at minimum 72K, then there is good chance that SWB will start at 68K and both these prices seem to match Audi A8 which is good news.

But if SWB starts at 59,995 then Lexus is just a cut-rate moron. And I dont want to boil your blood anymore ljflx so I will just stop here. :P

stevekilburn

no the text clearly says what colors are those and none of it says blue or green, so its not my eyes or color calibration or monitor.

syswei

Well, I would translate "black sapphire pearl" to mean "dark blue" and "verdigris mica" to be a green. On my monitor this larger scan (here) does show the latter to be greenish, though the former still looks black.

ljflx

You can't go by base prices with Lexus. They still advertise the base car as $55K but there is no such thing as a base car. You've got to go by the most likely configuration they will be shipped in. I like the prices quoted yesterday by my sales guy as what salesman in his shop were guessing . It would seem to me most SWB's will be $65-67K and most LWB cars will be $74-77K. There is always a logic problem when you load up a lower tiered sedan. When I shopped MB in 2001 I could have gotten an S430 MSRP to $6K higher than an S500 outitted with some logical options - and that took into consideration the gas guzzler tax on the S500. Likewise I'd expect that a fully loaded SWB car may get to within 4-5K of a LWB car and there may be folks who do not want the LWB car and want a fully optioned SWB who are willing to pay it. I wouldn't do that but I won't be surprised to see people do it.

2001gs430

I'm concerned that the 430+ horsepower representation is a long ways shy of 500 ponies, and that, at the end of the day, the car will maybe reach 450.

That's still remarkable and acceptable, but deep down I really hope it's more power . . . screamin' power

I would guess the LS600h will have at least 480 hp. The LS460 is coming with 380hp from 4.6l V8 so I don't believe for 1 second that the 5l V8 + electric motors can add only 50-70 hp. That just doesn't make sense.

stevekilburn

The gearbox is different so it may be that it will be just 430 hp.

My main concern is this:

430 hp is comparable to 4 year old V12 of BMW and Audi. Most likely, by next year, BMW and Audi will upgrade their V12 to 500 hp or more to keep a solid gap between their V8 (360 hp) and V12 offerings and compete with benz S600's 510 hp V12.

Although LS600hL is a technological marvel, customers will question if a mere addition of 50 hp is worth the extra $20,000?

On the other hand S-class will offer 382 hp V8 versus 510 hp V12
BMW will offer 360 hp V8 versus 500+ hp V12
Audi will probably upgrade both V8 and V12 to compete with Benz.

tagman

Although LS600hL is a technological marvel, customers will question if a mere addition of 50 hp is worth the extra $20,000?

Exactly my horsepower concerns . . . but remember, Steve, that there would still be a lot more for that 20 grand than just 50 + more ponies.

Still . . . like I said, I'm hoping it's a screamer!

TagMan

tagman

Well, I would translate "black sapphire pearl" to mean "dark blue"

Often on the HELMS, there are two or more blacks. One is a standard midnight black, known by different names, of course. The other black is is a metallic black, which is just like its name implies, black with metallic properties. Since metallic white is often referred to as white pearl, maybe this black sapphire pearl is actually metallic black. Is this possible?

TagMan

syswei

I tend to doubt it, simply because the actual stone (sapphire) is blue. Maybe when lj gets his brochure he can shed some light on this.

tagman

syswei - You are probably right. I've seen cars in very dark metallic blue. Good looking, IMO, although not my pick necessarily. Thanks.

TagMan

stevekilburn

This article here

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051123/OPINION03/511230428/1- - - 148/AUTO01

I am surprised because I was just googling info on Lexus LS and found this.

It says Lexus is actually working on a V12 above current LS. Is that true??

Also, this article says Lexus is making more diesels for Europe, which is good news, but the real disturbing story is that

benz and BMW sell "fifteen" times as many vehicles as Lexus. That is some competition. I wonder why Lexus is doing so poorly even in the
gasoline market.

tagman

good article. Same answer as before. Once Lexus delivers what the Europeans want, they will improve sales.

Two things:

A good diesel.

Good performance - looks like the new IS may have allowed Lexus to get its foot in the door.

One reason that Lexus was a slam dunk in the U.S. market and not the European market was that the U.S. domestic manufacturers were quite honestly an easier target. They were complacent giants caught in a serious nap. That is not the situation at all in Europe where you have the likes of BMW and Mercedes Benz and Audi and VW and others.

It's a little interesting that some of the Lexus guys don't get this, but the fact of the matter is that European cars are generally incredible vehicles, and the Europeans embrace them. Unlike U.S. domestics, where so many Americans have lost respect and interest in buying an American car.

Still, Lexus can do better in Europe and certainly will, IMO.

TagMan

stevekilburn

I think parts are cheaper and service costs much less for repairs in Europe. Thats the reason.

If the market is so damn tough in Europe, then good luck to Lexus and its LS. And I am not sure what will happen to Infiniti and Acura.

They will be creamed.

feverhart

My hardcopy brochure that I received from dealer shows the Verdigris Mica to be indeed a dark green. There are no blues. Also of note is that the LED headlights will not have the Adaptive Front Lighting System, regretably.

tagman

It's no slam dunk in Europe. You are right. But ultimately Lexus does build a decent product, and once they get the combination of performance, style, engine selections and pricing all dialed in, they will be successful. It won't happen overnight, and they will NOT do to Europe what they have done here, IMO, but there will be much more future market share for them in Europe then they currently have. When you think about it, it's wide open territory.

So, Steve, BTW, how long have you been driving a Prius, anyway? :P

TagMan

tagman

so what is black sapphire pearl?

ljflx

Yes - That's why I keep referencing a potential car above the LS600HL. That may be their power car in the $110K range that becomes their "sin" car. The issue on price is tied to strategy. Is the LS600HL set up to be an S550 killer or the premium car? If the first one than a $90K pricetag is probable, it's a volume car and the real power to go after the S600 and BMW 760LI comes in the car you just found. I've seen 550-600HP numbers thrown out for the car you just found.

MB sells about 1.1mln cars worldwide if I remember right. BMW has passed them in the last few years. Lexus sells 300K just in the US so a 15X multiple is impossible. Lexus has only been a North American brand till now with a small distribution set up in Europe. The car was developed only for here and Japan but in Japan the Lex vehicles sell under Toyota (till the past 6 months). The Toyota version of the Lexus cars are not counted as Lexus sales. As for diesels - it never made sense to develop them given the handful of diesels sold in Japan and the US. Now that they are preparing for Europe the diesels enter their strategy.

tagman

Yes - That's why I keep referencing a potential car above the LS600HL. That may be their power car in the $110K range

lj - Excuse me for getting in on this, but what kind of car are you talking about here? What would it be, and when?

TagMan

ljflx

Supposedly a Lexus nameplated car that is $20-30K higher in cost than the uppermost LS. That has been the story. From things I've read/heard Lexus/Toyota wants no part of the real high-end $200K+ areana but is very interested in playing in the $100-150K world. The first two cars there are supposed to be an LS+ and the LFA. So if they build an LS+ car with a V12 than it affects the pricing strategy of the LS600HL. I'm really not sure where this will go. But if I'm Lexus I look to hurt the S550 with the hybrid and hurt the S600 with a powerful V12 that is a different car than the LS. My problem with the S600 has always ben that the only way an outsider knows it's an S600 is by its nameplate but your wallet is 40-50K emptier.

tagman

I think the LS marketing platform (not chassis) is adequate to go as far as the LS600hL with little difficulty. Beyond that, I think the LS badge gets stretched too far past its sweet spot. If there is really to be a higher representation, then it should be a different car altogether, IMO.

When?

TagMan

tagman

My problem with the S600 has always ben that the only way an outsider knows it's an S600 is by its nameplate but your wallet is 40-50K emptier

That's why I never bought another Porsche 911 after the Boxster came out. I was so upset that it (the new 911) looked so darned much the same as the much cheaper Boxster from the front, so I stubbornly kept the Boxster (until recently), even though it was so much less power. Sounds crazy, and it probably was.

TagMan

ljflx

Sorry - I should have been clearer. That car - if it is produced - will be a different sedan than the LS but will still be under the Lexus nameplate. Toyota is not creating a nameplate above Lexus just a sedan above the LS. The LS train stops at the LS600HL.

Great market day. Let me know if you turn bearish at any point and I'll do the same and let you know if I do. Price of oil has me a bit concerned but LT weather models show a big Ridge across the south for the warm season. If that's accurate the northern gulf stays quiet this year and hurricanes are much further south than last year or stay in the Atlantic.

tagman

I'm a long term bull at this point, until there is a national or world crisis. If I see something to change my mind, you've got a deal . . . I'll let you know, and you do the same. You are not a day-trader, or are you?

So, the next upper, upper end for Lexus . . . when?

TagMan

stevekilburn

I meant 15 X multiple in Europe. half million for benz, bmw and audi versus 30,000 for lexus.

Globally I think it would be 4 times for benz and bmw and 3X for audi compared to Lexus.

stevekilburn

Honestly I wouldn't be caught dead in the driver's seat of a prius. With all due respect to hybrid technology, I will take LS 600hL any day but not prius.

I have owned a porsche 928 before (used of course) and a mitsubishi mirage (used again).

My current car is Benz 230 sedan which I intend to keep for next 2-3 years and then I want to shoot for a used 2-3 year old Cayman. And perhaps one day a Ferrari F430, A Ford mustang SVT with 450 hp, and a Lexus Sedan with a dream 600 hp+ V10 or v12 or hybrid whatever it is.

Thats all. I think its do able. What do you think??

stevekilburn

Not to divert from the topic but Iran is opening its own oil bourse on an island in euros and its a really disturbing news.

I wonder how soon we can take some military action. We must show them some of our hummers too.

tagman

I have NO DOUBT that you don't drive a Prius. Quite honestly, neither do I. And, yes, (it is becoming very obvious) I like the LS600hL. It's the first Lexus sedan that I have ever really liked.

The Cayman is a terrific fantastic car, and if you've been following the reviews so far, or driven it for yourself, you know it is one of the best Porsches EVER. The Ferrari F430 will cost you some serious maintenance from time to time, so be warned, but it is so beautiful. If your budget permits, then you should have at least one Ferrari in your life. Maybe you already have. Mine was a brand new late 80's 328 GT S. Yes, an entry Ferrari, but who cared back then, it was FUN (for a while). You mentioned the Mustang. A guy that works for me just loves Mustangs, but I've never been hooked on them, so I couldn't give you any worthwhile feedback on them. (I was more of a Camaro kid . . . so the Mustang was the enemy ).

If you REALLY want my vote, it would be the Cayman, unless you need the extra passenger capacity, then the LS is the obvious choice. But, why did you not mention the new S-Class?

TagMan

ljflx

No day trading for me.

I'd say that car - if it's built - is 2009-2010 range.

tagman

There goes my Panamera, darn you.

Glad to hear you don't day trade . . . too dangerous.

tagman

Iran

Jimmy Carter sure missed the chance way back then to do the right thing. Now look.

stevekilburn

I have never owned or driven a ferrari before and thats the one thing I have always missed. I know service and maintenance is atrocious thats why I am going to wait for 5-6 years on that.

Its probably going to be cayman in 2 years, so you are right on your guess.

I did not mention S-class because I already have C230 and one benz experience is enough for me. besides I have faced two recalls already and I am quite pissed with MB right now. One for drivers side air bag and another for electronic parking brake. There was a third problem (not a recall) where the cupholder got jammed all of a sudden. The dealership rudeness just hit a nerve in me. :mad: Overall I still like Benz because of heritage.

I pray everyday to save me from more troubles.

I hope LS stays a shining engineering and craftsmanship example for next 20-30 years at least.
As the Lexus VP said ".. unmatched by anyone anywhere on earth" and then Carter in New York. "...un-approachable by anyone, anywhere in the world..."

nvbanker

I don't read it quite that way. I'm pretty sure there is more to the story, but even taken out of context, it could be interpreted that Mr. Panke may be telling his people that they can no longer tell the customer what they want - they should listen to what the customer wants, and provide it.

tagman

Its probably going to be cayman in 2 years, so you are right on your guess.

I'll look forward to congratulating you when it happens . . . don't think they make it in dark blue, do they? Go for black!

The Lexus hype is good PR right now . . . good timing.

stevekilburn

I have not been too much of a camaro fan, but I am curious how long you kept the ferrari. How was the maintenance then?

I am sure you had a blast. Its actually tragic that there is no good ferrari thread and perhaps not enough traffic to have such a thread going.

Are you looking into purchasing LS600h ??

stevekilburn

I would say a Super-Lexus "sinful" V12 on the 20th Anniversary at Jan 2009 NAIAS Detroit Auto Show.

A perfect Gift to Lexus Fans!!!!!

tagman

on the LS - Not the first wave. But, things change more quickly than they used to, don't they? Gosh, maybe the anniversary car you predict!!!

Kept the Ferrari for only one year, because I moved to Hawaii, and did not want to ship it or even think about service over there. Hawaii lasted three years. I should have NEVER left. I have truly been an idiot more than once in my life, and still continue to shake my head at myself from time to time.

TagMan

stevekilburn

I think first two years of reliability ratings for panamera will be atrocious. Like Cayenne. It will then stabilize and improve quite a bit.

The advantage with LS and most lexus products till "now" is that they are awesome from get go.

But Lexus had to recall 57,000 cars for seat belts and I worry that rising volume in US would create more quality control problems.

Lexus will have to get a grip on this fast otherwise all the reputation may go down the hatch.

Especially with so many gizmos in LS 460L and LS 600h it is frightening how they are going to manage it.

mcescher1

Do we know if the 460 will have AWD and, if not, do we know when we will know? And if it will have AWD, do we know when it will be for sale in the United States?