Thanks for this post, Len. This pricing makes me real happy. I can see myself in a Truffle Mica/tan SWB LS460 with ML/Nav as options. That'd be plenty good for me. Does anyone know when the auto show comes out here on the west coast ? I can't wait to see the LS460/600hL cos everyone swears they look so good in person. Even in pics, these cars are pretty sleek and sporty...
Interesting question - I was all over an S-class last year, had one on order - and then found an LS, and changed my mind. Still like the S-class, like most everything about it better - except the repair issues. I don't like down time...
I talked to several Lexus reps after looking at the gorgeous cars.
The consensus is
LS 460: mid 60s LS 460L: add 4K LS 600h L: priced around S550 (approx. 88-90K). Almost all of them were unanimous that it will never exceed 100K (even after loading all possible options).
There was no news on ultra-Lexus Sedan. They flat out denied anything like that and were clear that no such thing has been planned or will ever be introduced to the market. They also categorically affirmed that lexus will never go beyond V8 in sedans.
They were however wishy-washy on LF-A supercar.
My opinion: It will be a smashing success. The exterior looks stunning in person. The pics dont do justice.
The interior is absolutely ethereal, I can dare say no one including maybach, bentley, jag, comes close. I dont want anyone to cross swords on this one.
It does not have wood plastered all over like a moron. Very tastefully done. Understated, elegant, refined. Nothing overdone, very self-assured.
The cut-out for V8 mated with hybrid system was also enlightening, you could see all the minute details.
I was very disappointed with Maybach interior. I think that could be one reason why sales have nose-dived. Maybach was on the opposite end of the hall, far away from mercedes line-up.
Bentley, ferrari, maserati and porsche were all clustered together in the enter of the second floor, almost everyone was mesmerized by the red cayman s with tan leather.
Thank you for your comments. You expressed what many who have seen the car have commented - it looks fabulous in person.
It is also good to hear that Lexus will price the vehicles in a sensible way. When I add the appropriate % to the figures you have given, the Canadian $ price will be a reasonable increase over the current LS430.
I totally agree with you on the Maybach interior.
My problem now is choosing a color... may be my wife can have her say here..
Thank you for this very important information. What I don't understand is this. How can there be such a discrepancy between what ljflx is hearing and what you have been told about the pricing? Also, ljflx is reporting that a super, super LS (V12) is on the way 2 or 3 years down the road, but you have been told that is not the case. Personally, I could not care less about a V12. The LS600h will be my dream car. I am number 1 on my dealer's list for the 600h.
What ljflx has been told may be from the dealership guys. They were speculating with me too.
I kept hammering the lexus rep almost to the point of irritation and there was not much speculation there.
I would go more with what the lexus reps say.
As far as the colors go we will have to wait till we see all the paints in person. Do not count on colors in brochures, you will be disappointed.
I also went to the ESB 86th Floor again, even though it was very foggy. But it was romantic.
Apparently the V12 is not on its way. But the rep told me things could change after Lexus sees the market response to its LS 600hL over the next 2-3 years.
The photos of the LS460 from the Geneva auto show has passenger side seat memory controls on the door. I have not seen this in any US auto show pictures. Has anyone noticed them in the LS600hL in NY?
The leather stitching on the LS600hL dash looks fabulous in the photos.
My goodness, I took a few days off from Edmunds (while taking my daughter on a final college selection trip) and you guys had posted so many darn messages here and on HELM that it has taken me a week to catch up on reading. Sheesh.
So . . . is it the $100,000+ price as lj indicated? . . . or is it the $90,000 price that steve indicated?
I'm going all the way with my ORIGINAL prediction of $91,350.
I usually agree with Len on most issues, but on this one I think he got sold an over-priced bill of goods. Those prices are just too high. Lexus is simply not going to give up its price advantage over the Germans in one fell swoop. I'm going with Tagman this time on the price of the 600hL. I'll put the "typical" LS460 with NAV and ML, etc. (current Modern package, Smart Access, 18" wheels) at $65,500 list (up about $1500).
Does anyone know if the new LS460 short wheelbase will have a Sports Package option as they have for the past years, larger wheels/tires, sport suspension. Been looking at the new MB S550 and BMW 750, really don't see the reason to spend that kind of money. If I can get Sport Package option, that's the car for me. Thanks.
There sure is a lot of comparison of our beloved LS to MB and BMW only; the one we should be watching is Audi. The new A6 and A8 are some serious competition IMO...if you want driving dynamics and luxury in the equation at a reasonable price.
Just think . . . soon it will be college tuition time.
Yeah, someone once told me that sending a kid to (a private) college is like buying a new Mercedes (or Lexus) every year and pushing it off a cliff. And just to make sure it hurts even more, my daughter turned down a 3/4 tuition merit scholarship at U of Miami to give me the honor of paying full tuition at Emory.
And just to make sure it hurts even more, my daughter turned down a 3/4 tuition merit scholarship at U of Miami to give me the honor of paying full tuition at Emory.
And an honor it is, too!
Better wax up the '05 and keep it shiny for a while.
It's already obvious. The upper-tier hybrid sales pitch will not be about MPG. Reason? That's already a preconception well etched in the consumer's mind. It's POWER that needs to be sold, and that is exactly what the initial video ads are indicating. Perfect bullseye!
Gary, I feel your pain......my daughter is now going on 3rd year medical school, after 4 years in a private coll. I figure I'll have over 200K in it before its all over. We found it was easier to get a grant after she got through with the regular coll. part. Its not a lot, but it all helps.
So now I'll go after a new LS.(most likely the cheeper one.)
When I read the Lexus press release fo the LS600hL I came away feeling that it emphasized luxury over sport...you can read it here
The LS460 PR wasn't big on handling either, in my view, it can be found here.
syswei, I don't think one can put much weight in PRs... Looking at the sporty styling of the new LS series, the low profile 18"/19" tires, little gap in wheel wells, the 8-speed tranny/2-mode CVT, and the high HP/TQ ratings, it can be assumed that these cars would have good handling characters.... Had to wear 19" low profile tires, spot 380HP+, that many cogs (8), and do 0-60 under 5.5s and not have befitting underpinnings that can handle all that power being put to the ground... So I'd wager that the LS series cars will handle far better than their LS430 predecessor.
Yeah, someone once told me that sending a kid to (a private) college is like buying a new Mercedes (or Lexus) every year and pushing it off a cliff...
Ouch ! I never heard that one before... I gotta remember that.
And just to make sure it hurts even more, my daughter turned down a 3/4 tuition merit scholarship at U of Miami to give me the honor of paying full tuition at Emory.
I guess daughter knows best and dad can afford it so why not ! My 13-yr-old starts high school this fall, and I can already imagine what its going to be like 4 yrs from now. It is scary to imagine the cost. She wants to go to an IVY Leaguer, so I may as well buy the LS quick, else I won't ever be able to afford another car ever again
Thanks oac and the rest of you for the "welcome back", even though I felt like I hadn't left - I was just so behind in reading that every time I wanted to throw my 2 cents in on an issue, it was already 100 messages behind!
And I am also so proud of you all who follow the HELM forum for maintaining civility in ALL your postings, even without our hostess having to provide any reminders. I have a feeling oac's blood pressure is staying much lower these days.
Been away all week on business so I am just catching up. The prices I was quoted were from a Lexus rep (not a dealer) and I'll re-iterate the pricing schemes and these were in the range that Lexus will ship the cars to dealer lots. The base LS460 will ship with ML, nav and be in the $65K range. You can custom order pre-collision etc but then you'll bump up against $70K. The LWB car will start at $68K but popularly outfitted will mainly run $74-75K. Most shipments will include the air suspension plus the audio options and the nav plus radar cruise. In effect this is the ultra in LWB form. But customize it further with 4 seat pckge and pre-collision and you're falling just short of the LS600HL starting point. As for the LS600HL - they are anticipating different buyer groups here - the plain jane $82K car (which for all intent and purposes is loaded), a mid level car without prec-collision and 4 seat package that many consumers will buy (maybe this is the 85-89K car Steve is referring to) and then the ultimate luxury car for the Hollywood and chaffeured crowd that reaches $102K. The NY Times auto section on Sunday - in a report on Toyota hybrids and future competition - is again stating the LS600HL is a $100K+ car. But I can only assume that they mean a fully loaded one.
LFA and the Lexus sedan above the LS - the rep told me they were working on cars in the $120-150K range. He made it clear the sedan would be a V12 and that Danny Clements had gotten his point across to Japan. He said there were no official announcements but in his words it was something like this - "with the money they are spending here and with the marketing image they are planning you can bet your life these cars will be around soon". Keep in mind the car above the LS is a totally differennt car. This is not an S600, S550 situation. The LS600HL is the top end of the LS. There will be no LS above this. It's pretty clear that these $120-150K cars are halo cars and part of a broader global strategy.
This is the first NYIAS I've missed in several years, but I did go to Houston's Auto Show in Februaury, and saw the LS460 and S550 parked pretty much right next to each other (30ft?). The LS blew it away, due mostly to the "My Humps" rear, and Maybach taillights that don't fit in with the rest of the car. The $110k price on the display model didn't help.
It's not that the LS is particularly beautiful (like the 2003 A8), but it is more stylish without trying too hard to be stylish. It comes across as more expensive, longer, and with attractive uses of chrome on the doors and window surround, and the rear has nice, squared shoulders (compared to the S550), and a cohesive style that isn't out of left field, and isn't derivitive, although the C-pillar to trunk lid echoes the 750 slightly).
Re: LS460 pricing, the 460 will probably fall in at $65k to start, since the GS ends around $55-57k. The LS LWB should be under $70k, and top out at $85k.
I would personally put the LS600 at $95k, with any options getting it to just over $100k. As this car has a 5L V8 over the 4.6, AWD, and Hybrid tech, plus LED headlights, a $10k premium over a maxed-out LS seems easily justifiable to me.
I do worry that Lexus will aim too low in pricing. I expect Lexus to cap 600 sales at 2-3k the first year.
R&T said something a couple of years ago about an LS500GT for this generation, so lj may not be mistaken! I don't put much stock in it. But if a V10 will be in the LF-A in a couple of years anyway, it's possible.
As I've said before, if Lexus prices the LS600 anywhere near the S550, this will be only to do serious damage to Mercedes, and it would do just that!
As most S550s sticker closer to $100k than $90k, I would expect a similarly equipped LS to sit in that ballpark.
If the LS600 will only sell 2-3k a year, than making TWO new Lexus models, with no history to sell, seems like a reach to me. If the LF-A is $130k, that's fine, but making a car better than an LS600 will be virtually impossible.
Since the 760iL will not have 436HP for long, and the S600 is already over 500HP, I expected more than the 430+HP stated. With Hybrid and AWD, I expect weight to be around 5000lbs., which will mirror their competition. I think more power/speed will be needed to justify buying one over a LS460, loaded. 450HP at least, as the BMW and Audi prepare to reload. 20+ MPG is a nice mitigating factor, doh!
Based on these pricing, it will appear that the LS460 with ML/Nav at $65K is only about $8K more than comparably equipped LS430 ($57K). For 100 more ponies, new and better style, 2 more cogs in the tranny, better mpg, faster 0-60, and a much better audio system, Lexus only charges an additional $8K over the 2006 LS430... Not bad.
The LS600hL really is a nicer version of the LS460. The small change in the front looks (3 LED vs 2 HID, and all chrome grill), that nice-looking leather-stitched dash, AWD, 5L V8, HSD, should all be worth a lot more than $10K over the LS460L (at $85K).... Maybe DrFill is right that Lexus may be under-pricing the 600 too close to the 460L. I'd price it in the mid-90s and up to the A8 W12/760iL price point of the mid $100K level...
So I'd like to imagine the comparos here:
Price-based (USD): S550 v 600h v A8 v 750iL Displacement (L): S550 v 460L v A8 v 750 Engine-output (HP): S600 v 600hL v A8 W12 v 760iL
Which of these comparos would be the benchmark version the auto rags would choose to make ? Hmmmm....
OAC - The ML/Nav LS430 has a $61-62K MSRP, not $57K.
LS600HL pricing is dependant on strategy and production. If the strategy is there to roll out a $110-120K 207-209" Lexus sedan above the LS with a V12 engine then it will be priced down to leave room for that top car. If that is the case then production volume will go up substantially and it will short circuit the LS460L. This is what the rep I was talking to was indicating would happen. I almost got the feeling that if the LS600 HL was ready for production now then there'd be no LS460L in the first place. In fact all 4 people I was with (plus me) that heard that rep indicated to him that they'd pass on the LS460L and just wait for the LS600HL if it was really in that price range that he indicated. If that strategy data that I was told is right then it lends a lot of crecedence to pricing the LS600HL in that $82-102K range. If Steve got data that the pricing would be high $80's it also fits as it could be a car priced in the high 80's will be the dominant optioned production vehicle shipped to dealers and the fully optioned $102K car is shipped in low numbers or is a custom order.
Just think of strategy decisions that are out there. Is the LS600HL a car destined to be a cheap S600 competitor or is it priced to be an S550 killer? With all the news and talk it's getting it's hard to imagine this is planned as a low volume car. Just look at this board - most of the speculation is on this car and not the LS460 or 460L. I must say that the S550 looked like an obsolete car next to this LS600HL and I was hardly the only person that had such a thought. If it's an S550 killer than the higher end model of the future will be a value driven S600 competitor. More car, larger sedan at an equal or lower price and that price point would fit a lower volume car. If Lexus goes the route of 3 LS cars here long-term than I'd expect that some initial options available on the LS460L will drop by the wayside and no longer be available once the LS600HL hits the dealers if the latter car is pegged as a volume car.
Wow! My head is spinning with all these possibilities on pricing, models, etc. Since I like to describe myself as a "typical Joe Blow" high end Lexus buyer, then I see no reason not to wait for the LS600HL instead of jumping to the LS460L. Why go for the LS460L when I can have the ultimate in vehicles for about $10K more? Since I am #1 on the waiting list, I am positive that I will own one less than a year from now. The only question then becomes whether to buy or lease.
I am so glad to have people like yourself (Dr. Fill, tagman, oac, steve, etc.) on this forum to keep the rest of us "dummies" abreast of all the latest information about Lexus and other pertinent news. Through these forums, I think that at times I know more about what to expect from Lexus than does my dealer.
I am really upset that Lexus is not putting AWD in the LS460 or 460l--- I need AWD, and would be willing to pay for the 600hl, but can't wait until March for my next car.
Go here and click "LS hybrid" / "overview"...you will see awd listed as standard. Then click "LS460" / "overview" and you'll see that awd isn't listed at all, even as an option.
that you can always go down (in pricing), but it is hard to go up. I think Lexus knows exactly what they need to do with the LS460 class of cars. They proved with the intro of the LS400 that they could undercut the competition, attract buyers, gain reputation, then start the prices climbing. I bet they do it again with the 460s. Why go head to head with MB if you don't have to on price? Make people gasp at the MB sticker and then go buy the Lexus. They are a RICH company. Hooking buyers for the long haul is something they know how to do. Scaring them off on day one makes no sense.
lj - an excellent post. I agree that the LS600hL will dent the S550. Now I know you to be a numbers guy, so how many S550's will likely be sold and how many LS600hL's will likely be sold? Careful, because the comparison needs to be for the SAME future time period.
Have you noticed that it seems everyone without exception is saying that the LS600hL will come out in approximately March/April '07?
I'm not so convinced. I suspect that the LS600hL might be released significantly EARLIER than March/April '07!
OAC - The ML/Nav LS430 has a $61-62K MSRP, not $57K.
I was using real-world (typical) "selling price" commonly found in online shopping for buyers of '03 - '06 LS430 versus pretty much MSRP number for '07. Sorry that I didn't clarify the point. But you are right, its probably better to use MSRP v MSRP...
Regarding the other comments you made, I am going to assume that you feel the 600hL will go head-on with the S550. What role would the LS460 twins play then ? Methinks the LS460L with matching HP output with the S550 is purposely designed as such, while the 600hL is purposely designed exclusively to undercut the S600/A8 W12/760iL at significant price discounts, affording almost a V12-like performance as the competition provides. Maybe the final HP number for the 600hL will be 450, which should be fairly right in the sweet spot for this class...
Finally, would the auto rags take the 600hL against the S550 (price-wise) or the LS460 against the S550 (HP-wise) ? What do you all think ?
"I suspect that the LS600hL might be released significantly EARLIER than March/April '07!"
Funny - I had the same exact feeling.
Wish I could answer you on car sales. I think if Lexus allows the LS600H to have decent volume and an 80-90K price availability, they'll sell 10-12K of them. My guess is that they'll sell 40-45K LS cars in total with about 20-25K being LWB models. How they handle price strategy and option availability with the LS460L will determine LS600HL sales. On the the S550 - It's off to a great start but these are MB shipments to dealers. Wish I knew how they are retailing. My area is dominated by the LS and the S and I just saw my first S-class today and I am really shocked at the dearth of them here. Maybe the husbands are keeping them away from their wives or vice-versa.
Finally, would the auto rags take the 600hL against the S550 (price-wise) or the LS460 against the S550 (HP-wise) ? What do you all think ?
Both, IMO. They are both legitimate comps. But, for me, the LS600hL is going to be the most fun to read about, and, in any fair comparison I expect that it will probably destroy almost everything it is pitted against.
My area is dominated by the LS and the S and I just saw my first S-class today and I am really shocked at the dearth of them here. Maybe the husbands are keeping them away from their wives or vice-versa.
Most likely similar to you, here . . . MB, Lexus, Jags, Bimmers and Porsches are the primary flavors, (unusually large numbers of Range Rovers also) and yes I've spotted a few new S-Class cars, but it seems much too light. It's almost strange, and I am starting to wonder if we are ultimately going to see that the sales numbers are in fact weaker than the distribution numbers. I talked to my MB dealer last week, as I was curious about the GL and the diesel situation, but I neglected to ask about the S-Class sales.
Comments
link title
DK
The consensus is
LS 460: mid 60s
LS 460L: add 4K
LS 600h L: priced around S550 (approx. 88-90K). Almost all of them were unanimous that it will never exceed 100K (even after loading all possible options).
There was no news on ultra-Lexus Sedan. They flat out denied anything like that and were clear that no such thing has been planned or will ever be introduced to the market. They also categorically affirmed that lexus will never go beyond V8 in sedans.
They were however wishy-washy on LF-A supercar.
My opinion: It will be a smashing success. The exterior looks stunning in person. The pics dont do justice.
The interior is absolutely ethereal, I can dare say no one including maybach, bentley, jag, comes close. I dont want anyone to cross swords on this one.
It does not have wood plastered all over like a moron. Very tastefully done. Understated, elegant, refined. Nothing overdone, very self-assured.
The cut-out for V8 mated with hybrid system was also enlightening, you could see all the minute details.
I was very disappointed with Maybach interior. I think that could be one reason why sales have nose-dived. Maybach was on the opposite end of the hall, far away from mercedes line-up.
Bentley, ferrari, maserati and porsche were all clustered together in the enter of the second floor, almost everyone was mesmerized by the red cayman s with tan leather.
It is also good to hear that Lexus will price the vehicles in a sensible way. When I add the appropriate % to the figures you have given, the Canadian $ price will be a reasonable increase over the current LS430.
I totally agree with you on the Maybach interior.
My problem now is choosing a color... may be my wife can have her say here..
I'm going all the way with my ORIGINAL prediction of $91,350.
Any other solid number predictions, just for the fun of it?
BTW, steve, thanks from me too for all the info!
TagMan
There were dealership guys and Lexus guys.
What ljflx has been told may be from the dealership guys. They were speculating with me too.
I kept hammering the lexus rep almost to the point of irritation and there was not much speculation there.
I would go more with what the lexus reps say.
As far as the colors go we will have to wait till we see all the paints in person. Do not count on colors in brochures, you will be disappointed.
I also went to the ESB 86th Floor again, even though it was very foggy. But it was romantic.
Apparently the V12 is not on its way. But the rep told me things could change after Lexus sees the market response to its LS 600hL over the next 2-3 years.
The LS460 PR wasn't big on handling either, in my view, it can be found here.
The leather stitching on the LS600hL dash looks fabulous in the photos.
So . . . is it the $100,000+ price as lj indicated? . . . or is it the $90,000 price that steve indicated?
I'm going all the way with my ORIGINAL prediction of $91,350.
I usually agree with Len on most issues, but on this one I think he got sold an over-priced bill of goods. Those prices are just too high. Lexus is simply not going to give up its price advantage over the Germans in one fell swoop. I'm going with Tagman this time on the price of the 600hL. I'll put the "typical" LS460 with NAV and ML, etc. (current Modern package, Smart Access, 18" wheels) at $65,500 list (up about $1500).
TagMan
Could be, but do you REALLY think Audi will ever be much of a threat to Lexus sales? Or any others, for that matter?
The compliments towards Audi are definately abundant and growing, but will the sales ever be abundant?
How many buyers will really choose an Audi over a Lexus when it finally comes time to put down the green?
TagMan
Yeah, someone once told me that sending a kid to (a private) college is like buying a new Mercedes (or Lexus) every year and pushing it off a cliff.
And an honor it is, too!
Better wax up the '05 and keep it shiny for a while.
TagMan
Look at this GS hybrid ad, for example:
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=7167&categoryId=
Incredible, IMO. With that kind of advertising, I'm likely to be more optimistic about GS sales than I was originally projecting.
No doubt, the LS hybrid ads will pack the same message, but with added emphasis on luxury.
TagMan
So now I'll go after a new LS.(most likely the cheeper one.)
DK
The LS460 PR wasn't big on handling either, in my view, it can be found here.
syswei, I don't think one can put much weight in PRs... Looking at the sporty styling of the new LS series, the low profile 18"/19" tires, little gap in wheel wells, the 8-speed tranny/2-mode CVT, and the high HP/TQ ratings, it can be assumed that these cars would have good handling characters.... Had to wear 19" low profile tires, spot 380HP+, that many cogs (8), and do 0-60 under 5.5s and not have befitting underpinnings that can handle all that power being put to the ground... So I'd wager that the LS series cars will handle far better than their LS430 predecessor.
Ouch ! I never heard that one before... I gotta remember that.
And just to make sure it hurts even more, my daughter turned down a 3/4 tuition merit scholarship at U of Miami to give me the honor of paying full tuition at Emory.
I guess daughter knows best and dad can afford it so why not !
BTW, welcome back Gary... Missed you around here.
And I am also so proud of you all who follow the HELM forum for maintaining civility in ALL your postings, even without our hostess having to provide any reminders. I have a feeling oac's blood pressure is staying much lower these days.
LFA and the Lexus sedan above the LS - the rep told me they were working on cars in the $120-150K range. He made it clear the sedan would be a V12 and that Danny Clements had gotten his point across to Japan. He said there were no official announcements but in his words it was something like this - "with the money they are spending here and with the marketing image they are planning you can bet your life these cars will be around soon". Keep in mind the car above the LS is a totally differennt car. This is not an S600, S550 situation. The LS600HL is the top end of the LS. There will be no LS above this. It's pretty clear that these $120-150K cars are halo cars and part of a broader global strategy.
A forum here on Edmunds with often contentious debates.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Century
This is the first NYIAS I've missed in several years, but I did go to Houston's Auto Show in Februaury, and saw the LS460 and S550 parked pretty much right next to each other (30ft?). The LS blew it away, due mostly to the "My Humps" rear, and Maybach taillights that don't fit in with the rest of the car. The $110k price on the display model didn't help.
It's not that the LS is particularly beautiful (like the 2003 A8), but it is more stylish without trying too hard to be stylish. It comes across as more expensive, longer, and with attractive uses of chrome on the doors and window surround, and the rear has nice, squared shoulders (compared to the S550), and a cohesive style that isn't out of left field, and isn't derivitive, although the C-pillar to trunk lid echoes the 750 slightly).
Re: LS460 pricing, the 460 will probably fall in at $65k to start, since the GS ends around $55-57k. The LS LWB should be under $70k, and top out at $85k.
I would personally put the LS600 at $95k, with any options getting it to just over $100k. As this car has a 5L V8 over the 4.6, AWD, and Hybrid tech, plus LED headlights, a $10k premium over a maxed-out LS seems easily justifiable to me.
I do worry that Lexus will aim too low in pricing. I expect Lexus to cap 600 sales at 2-3k the first year.
R&T said something a couple of years ago about an LS500GT for this generation, so lj may not be mistaken! I don't put much stock in it. But if a V10 will be in the LF-A in a couple of years anyway, it's possible.
As I've said before, if Lexus prices the LS600 anywhere near the S550, this will be only to do serious damage to Mercedes, and it would do just that!
As most S550s sticker closer to $100k than $90k, I would expect a similarly equipped LS to sit in that ballpark.
If the LS600 will only sell 2-3k a year, than making TWO new Lexus models, with no history to sell, seems like a reach to me. If the LF-A is $130k, that's fine, but making a car better than an LS600 will be virtually impossible.
Since the 760iL will not have 436HP for long, and the S600 is already over 500HP, I expected more than the 430+HP stated. With Hybrid and AWD, I expect weight to be around 5000lbs., which will mirror their competition. I think more power/speed will be needed to justify buying one over a LS460, loaded. 450HP at least, as the BMW and Audi prepare to reload. 20+ MPG is a nice mitigating factor, doh!
Time will reveal.
DrFill
The LS600hL really is a nicer version of the LS460. The small change in the front looks (3 LED vs 2 HID, and all chrome grill), that nice-looking leather-stitched dash, AWD, 5L V8, HSD, should all be worth a lot more than $10K over the LS460L (at $85K).... Maybe DrFill is right that Lexus may be under-pricing the 600 too close to the 460L. I'd price it in the mid-90s and up to the A8 W12/760iL price point of the mid $100K level...
So I'd like to imagine the comparos here:
Price-based (USD): S550 v 600h v A8 v 750iL
Displacement (L): S550 v 460L v A8 v 750
Engine-output (HP): S600 v 600hL v A8 W12 v 760iL
Which of these comparos would be the benchmark version the auto rags would choose to make ? Hmmmm....
LS600HL pricing is dependant on strategy and production. If the strategy is there to roll out a $110-120K 207-209" Lexus sedan above the LS with a V12 engine then it will be priced down to leave room for that top car. If that is the case then production volume will go up substantially and it will short circuit the LS460L. This is what the rep I was talking to was indicating would happen. I almost got the feeling that if the LS600 HL was ready for production now then there'd be no LS460L in the first place. In fact all 4 people I was with (plus me) that heard that rep indicated to him that they'd pass on the LS460L and just wait for the LS600HL if it was really in that price range that he indicated. If that strategy data that I was told is right then it lends a lot of crecedence to pricing the LS600HL in that $82-102K range. If Steve got data that the pricing would be high $80's it also fits as it could be a car priced in the high 80's will be the dominant optioned production vehicle shipped to dealers and the fully optioned $102K car is shipped in low numbers or is a custom order.
Just think of strategy decisions that are out there. Is the LS600HL a car destined to be a cheap S600 competitor or is it priced to be an S550 killer? With all the news and talk it's getting it's hard to imagine this is planned as a low volume car. Just look at this board - most of the speculation is on this car and not the LS460 or 460L. I must say that the S550 looked like an obsolete car next to this LS600HL and I was hardly the only person that had such a thought. If it's an S550 killer than the higher end model of the future will be a value driven S600 competitor. More car, larger sedan at an equal or lower price and that price point would fit a lower volume car. If Lexus goes the route of 3 LS cars here long-term than I'd expect that some initial options available on the LS460L will drop by the wayside and no longer be available once the LS600HL hits the dealers if the latter car is pegged as a volume car.
I am so glad to have people like yourself (Dr. Fill, tagman, oac, steve, etc.) on this forum to keep the rest of us "dummies" abreast of all the latest information about Lexus and other pertinent news. Through these forums, I think that at times I know more about what to expect from Lexus than does my dealer.
Have you noticed that it seems everyone without exception is saying that the LS600hL will come out in approximately March/April '07?
I'm not so convinced.
I suspect that the LS600hL might be released significantly EARLIER than March/April '07!
TagMan
I was using real-world (typical) "selling price" commonly found in online shopping for buyers of '03 - '06 LS430 versus pretty much MSRP number for '07. Sorry that I didn't clarify the point. But you are right, its probably better to use MSRP v MSRP...
Regarding the other comments you made, I am going to assume that you feel the 600hL will go head-on with the S550. What role would the LS460 twins play then ? Methinks the LS460L with matching HP output with the S550 is purposely designed as such, while the 600hL is purposely designed exclusively to undercut the S600/A8 W12/760iL at significant price discounts, affording almost a V12-like performance as the competition provides. Maybe the final HP number for the 600hL will be 450, which should be fairly right in the sweet spot for this class...
Finally, would the auto rags take the 600hL against the S550 (price-wise) or the LS460 against the S550 (HP-wise) ? What do you all think ?
Funny - I had the same exact feeling.
Wish I could answer you on car sales. I think if Lexus allows the LS600H to have decent volume and an 80-90K price availability, they'll sell 10-12K of them. My guess is that they'll sell 40-45K LS cars in total with about 20-25K being LWB models. How they handle price strategy and option availability with the LS460L will determine LS600HL sales. On the the S550 - It's off to a great start but these are MB shipments to dealers. Wish I knew how they are retailing. My area is dominated by the LS and the S and I just saw my first S-class today and I am really shocked at the dearth of them here. Maybe the husbands are keeping them away from their wives or vice-versa.
Both, IMO. They are both legitimate comps. But, for me, the LS600hL is going to be the most fun to read about, and, in any fair comparison I expect that it will probably destroy almost everything it is pitted against.
TagMan
You know what they say . . .
My area is dominated by the LS and the S and I just saw my first S-class today and I am really shocked at the dearth of them here. Maybe the husbands are keeping them away from their wives or vice-versa.
Most likely similar to you, here . . . MB, Lexus, Jags, Bimmers and Porsches are the primary flavors, (unusually large numbers of Range Rovers also) and yes I've spotted a few new S-Class cars, but it seems much too light. It's almost strange, and I am starting to wonder if we are ultimately going to see that the sales numbers are in fact weaker than the distribution numbers. I talked to my MB dealer last week, as I was curious about the GL and the diesel situation, but I neglected to ask about the S-Class sales.
I think we should have seen more of them by now.
TagMan