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Ford Mustang (2005 & newer) Problems and Solutions



  • konzykonzy Posts: 1
    Just picked up my 05 GT friday and the hesitation with the automatic is not just an issue your having. I don't see the engine rev-ing, it just hesitates from a complete stop or very slow roll. Please let me know what the dealer says.

  • tha1tha1 Posts: 7
    Well - just like I said - technician could not find anything wrong. He told me that with an auto tranny when you come to a rolling stop you are going to have some hesitation as the car downshifts then when you accelerate you will have some hesitation. So as I saw on a different board I tried disconnecting the battery and reconnecting in 30 minutes - reset the computer. Also shut off O/D and turned off traction control. Seems a little better based on one ride - will let you know after a long trip.
  • howieheelshowieheels Posts: 4
    They couldn't find anything wrong on mine either. I'll try disconnecting the battery. Thanks for the advise, also does your car make a clunk sound when shifting into reverse from park? dealer couldn't find anything wrong with that. I'll be taking it to another dealer this week. Good Luck
  • goldegolde Posts: 2
    I have a manual Gt that was built in Feb, it has the popping noise in the suspension, has engine hesitation and has a decided lack of torque plus it had a significant tranny noise that almost sounded that the tranny had no insulation around the shifter and dash you could basically hear road noise . I took it to the dealer and they have ordered the parts for the suspension , they apparently saw something in the tech codes and reset (but to no avail) for the engine hesitation and torque issue, they did reduce the tranny noise but it is still noticeable. As you can imagine I'm not liking this situation a whole lot. I had a 01 Stang and I think it was faster and handled better than the new one.
    Someone tell me its worth hanging on to this one.
  • I'm sure graphicguy will .
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,710
    Just a guess, but it sounds like the engine control module needs to be reflashed. Don't know if your dealer service dept has code to reflash with, but that's the first place I'd start.

    What kind of noise are you hearing around the shifter?

    I've never experienced any sort of "popping noise" in the suspension, but other have. I believe there's a TSB out there to fix it, however.

    If the '05 isn't noticeably faster and handles much better than your '01, then something is definitely wrong.

    If your current dealer can't help, go to another one.

    I've noticed a huge difference in service depts for all makes and models of cars. IMHO, poor dealer service depts are the culprits in probably 90% of owner dissatisfaction.
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • jhipsterjhipster Posts: 6
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    First of all, please release your CAPS LOCK...most people will not respond to this type of posting, as it is considered SHOUTING and not in keeping with online courtesy.

    RE: your howl----well now didn't the dealer put the car on a rack and check where this noise was coming from? Actually it sounds like they mis-diagnosed it anyway, since most pinion noise would occur when you APPLY the gas, while most bearing noises would occur when you release the gas.

    The dealer could also have disconnected the driveshaft on the rack to see if the noise went away. If it didn't you have a transmission issue perhaps.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,710
    Haven't seen you around much. Where have you been hiding?
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    I was biking in Italy, just to prove that not all old farts deserve to be declared legally dead just yet.

    didn't see any Mustangs over there, though, or many American cars except of all things a PT Cruiser and a 300C in Rome. But at $6 a gallon for gas and a US dollar that feels like a peso, not much chance of living with a big V-8 over there on an American salary. Would be fun, though, on some of those back roads.

    Gee you've all been so well behaved. Is this some kind of trick? :P
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,710
    I could think of much worse ways to spend my time than biking in Italy. Sounds like a wonderful trip. Matter of fact, I'm heading there this summer.....still have relatives there.

    Kind of surprising, in the land of Maseratti, Fiat, Lambos you'd actually see PTs and V8 300Cs.

    I think the Mustang would be popular if they could be had in Italy.

    Maybe some good old Mustang American flair would have been welcome.

    I was in Munich for business about 6 weeks ago. They really turn up their noses at American performance iron. That said, I did have a nice conversation with, of all people, a German Camaro fan. He actually had a nice looking '97 Z28 that he had imported to the "Rhineland".

    Of course we're "behaving". Did you expect anything else? :P
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    You will see Mustangs in Norway however, I am told. American iron is VERY popular there.
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Ok, I just got my new '05 Mustang GT 5-speed, and yes there certainly IS a loud vibration at 3200-3300 RPM,and that's not also happens at 1000 to 1,200 RPM as well. It dosen't matter if you have a load on it or not (ie. neutral), you still get the vibration at those two RPM, and if you keep it at those RPM's, the vibration stays. The earlier post I read about ford dealer telling the guy "just don't drive at those RPM's", is absolutly insane to say the least! A 30K car and that's the answer? Forget that, I would keep bugging detroit my freind, because the complaints are starting to pour in I'm sure...this obviously is not an isolated problem. My dealership says nothing is showing in Detroit on this problem yet, and they will look at it Thursday morning, and I am anxious to hear what they say. But of course in the mean time, I'm gonna try to do a bit of diagnosing myself.

    Let's see, Since you do not need a load on the car to get the vibration, then it wouldn't be the tranny or rear end. I had a 98 Corvette that did something simalar and it turned out to be a loose bracket on the tailpipe! But this vibration on the Stang is much stronger, and the new Mustang exaust is in rubber brackets, so I doubt it's that...but it could be something just as ridiculous (I hope). Of course we know what we are dreading here....the worst case senario is a bad crankshaft or harmonic balence (don't even want to think that way). However, it could be a bolt in the chassis or even the motor-mount (my best guess), and when the RPM reaches 1200 or 3200, that frequency causes the vibration thanks to the loose chassie bolt or loose motor-mount (I'm hopeing). Anyway, we shall see, but I would think that Detroit will issue something on it soon. In the mean-time, if my tech at the dealership or I figure it out Thursday the 24th, I will be sure to post it here for all to see...
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Oh, and let me add this to those that have the same problem like the guy earlier in this thread...your talking about sueing and "lemon laws" and stuff like that because no one can find your vibration problems, and you should of kept your 01 Cobra or whatever. Let me say that this Mustang is one of the most beautiful cars I have ever seen, and is light years ahead of your Cobra in design and engineering. Don't throw away this car because of the vibration problem, which is obviously a problem that others are having (including me). ANY problem can be fixed after it is diagnosed...and any problem can be diagnosed if enough time is spent on it. Just about any new car will have a problem or two and will have to be diagnosed just the same. I htink this Mustang GT is worth taking the time to diagnose and fix, so let's give it time and continue to try and find the problem. It probebly is something silly and small.
  • dantedante Posts: 92
    You see PT Cruisers in Europe because Chrysler makes those in France for their market. Don't know about the 300C, maybe an expat who doesn't care about the $6 per gallon cost.

    The Italians actually like some U.S. "iron." They appreciate the Vettes and are familiar with the Mustang. The V6 would probably have more appeal for them considering cost of gasoline...

    A couple years ago I was invited by a very well known Italian business man in Rome to a party at his "garage." His "garage" was three floors of a very nice Rome apartment where he displayed over 60 U.S. cars, from vintage Vettes and Mustangs to Packards. It was quite a party, everyone in black tie (and some lovely ladies to boot) admiring his U.S. car collection.

    Jon B.
  • cmnottcmnott Posts: 200
    I will be in Italy for the month of August as well as I have uncles and aunts in Calabria and my wife has aunts and uncles near Rome. Lots of food awaits!

    I would love to bring the Mustang there, that would be a blast! My cousin from Italy came here when I had my '99 GT and was white as a ghost when he got out, but he loved it. For these people, their turbodiesels and 1 liter engines make these cars feel like Ferraris, so it is quite a thrill.

    Last time I went in 1999 I rented a Renault Megane which was neat. Now with two kiddies I am going to experience a Lancia Lybra Station Wagon. Should be interesting, probably not as interesting as the 1994 Alfa 33 that I had in that trip, that boxer engined Lancia was fun!

    Errr, just to stay on topic, my Mustang has been great lately. I am still adjusting to the width of this car, combined with the seating position, feels like as wide as a Murcielago. I am still a good two feet away from the wall when I park too, odd.

    My 99 felt smaller, that's for sure.
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Your 99 was smaller, as was my 03.

    That's why I like this is roomy enough inside to feel luxorious. The C-4 Corvette was tiny inside, but the 1997 C-5 Corvette felt roomy inside, and I bought one. It might be better to have that "tighter feel" on the track, but for everyday driving I don't like that "stuck in a tin can" feeling...
  • dantedante Posts: 92
    O.K., I swear I will not, after this message, go off topic again but as you are going to Rome, I would be happy to email you my Rome restaurant list (I lived there for over 22 years and go back often). Drop me an email at [email protected] and I will forward to you.

    Now, back to topic. I got a call from a Chicago dealer that advised they had a GT. Unfortunately was an automatic and I just can't do that. Goes against my Italian nature... On the one hand, am more comfortable buying an 06 considering the first year bug a boos. On the other hand, the idea of waiting until november drives me nuts.

    Am considering a Cooper S (I am looking for a fun car under $30k to replace my Miata). Already own an Infinit FX which I love.

    Ciao, happy motoring. Jon B.
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    If you want the 'interior upgrade" (brushed aluminum) you better get the 05, because it will not be offered for 06. That will be reserved for the new Mustang Shelby 500.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,926
    Where'd you hear that? From what I've seen, the GT500 will have carbon fiber and black trim.
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    I have pictures but I forgot where I downloaded them from...wait here's a link that you may try....www.interior

    It could be carbon fiber but it looks like a dark brushed aluminum..I can't tell. Anyway I heard that they are dropping the option of brushed aluminum for the '06 GT for sure.
  • 5twenty5twenty Posts: 11
    Today I had the front suspension on my GT fixed for the popping noise. (Yes, there is a TSB) I haven't picked it up yet but it will sure be nice driving through a parking lot without the front end popping all the time.

    Does anyone know of a TSB concerning the power windows? Occasionally my window will go down further than it's supposed to and CLUNK when it hits the bottom, that is it goes down below the top of the door. Then the next time I put it down it does OK, that is the window sticks up a half inch or so above the door. I've read something about this but didn't pay much attention when I should have.
  • I have the same problem as jhipster. At first I thought the noise only occurs when I have the A/C on, but that turned out to be not the case. It comes on when the car reaches around 40 miles per hour. There seems to be no TSB for this problem as of now, but if anybody knows what is causing this problem please give your input.

    Besides this problem, my 05 GT has the A/C vent issue. When the vent knob is turned to the "bottom" position, air comes from the front window defroster vents and the bottom vents. And when the vent know is turned to the "defroster and bottom" position, the A/C automatically turns on (A/C light is not on, but cold air comes on, and you can hear the "click" noise when the A/C is being turned on).

    My gas tank problem (gas pump pop off before tank is full) will be fixed this Saturday! Finally!
  • I've had my GT '05 stang for about 3 months and am having several problems. Wondering if anyone else is having the same's a hassle to continue taking it back to the Ford place for repairs (3 times already) I love Mustangs and this is the 4th one I've owned...just wish they'd worked out the "bugs" before I purchased mine. I'm looking into the "lemon law" but really don't want to give up my car.

    The front end was making popping sounds when I turned right and left at slow speeds, there's a TSB out on it and mine should be repaired tomorrow. They've also revised it, because of some damaged it's caused and additional parts had to be ordered from Germany. My dealership says that was the 3 week hold up.

    My c.d. player skips sometimes.

    My fuel date error light comes on and the fuel hand shows empty, even when I've just filled it up. Then it resets itself, and does it again in a few minutes??

    And last but not least, my engine light just came on and stays on. Anyone else having this problem? Thanks for a response.

    I've babied the car, would hate to see what would happen if I drove it like a muscle car should be driven...
    Signed, Mustangsally3
  • I'm having the same popping noise in the suspension and there is a service bullentin on it, as you may already know. Make sure they order the "revised" part also...I took mine in for repair and they said Ford had updated the bullentin to include another part to fix some additional damage already caused by the problem. I've been waiting almost 3 weeks, they say the last part comes from Germany...It should be fixed tomorrow, thank goodness!
  • hi nice to meet you im Joe I have a mustang gt 05 myself , what type of fuel problems did you have with your 05 mustang ? because i think i am having the same you did , at the gas pump when your fueling up with gas does the gas pump start clicking thinking that the tank is filled up but it isn't? plaease right back and let me know thank you [email protected] take care
  • Hi i'm Joe, I have the same problems with my gas tank at stations with my new 05 gt to. Did you find out what was wrong? if so please please e-mail me back and let me know so I can bring it in to the dealership. reach me at [email protected] thank you so much .
  • mengineermengineer Posts: 1
    I agree. I have the same incident with my Expedition. After I replaced the OEM battery with Die Hard, it never happens again for 80,000 miles.

    Get a new battery from Sears and you will never have to worry about electrical problems.
  • cmnottcmnott Posts: 200
    Definitely, I will take you up on that as time to leave nears...if I can get away from the tug of war that we go through every night as the "invitati", since we go every four years, we are quite popular when we go. ;)
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Ok, for a "vibration problem" update....

    I took it in Thursday to be looked at. Two Ford tech's checked it out and this is their conclution:

    The "vibration issue" is NOT NORMAL. (so those dealers who are telling people it is "normal" are not telling the truth). It happens at 1200 RPM and 3250 RPM. It is "engine driven" (so the engine is causing the problem wether it is internal or external, but we already knew that). They informed Detroit. Detroit said their engineer's are "examining the problem".

    Well, let me tell you what else I have found on my own since Thursday. Driving the car on quiet roads for hours and listening VERY closley, I have discovered something very interesting indeed. The "vibration" is happening at OTHER RPM ranges, but you have to listen extreamly close to hear it at those ranges! For example, If I cruise at 2900 RPM, the sound is faint, but it is there. But at 2900 RPM I noticed something that could crack this case...the vibrating sound is intermittent, producing a "frequency" about it! In other words, if a steady 2900 RPM is kept, I can hear the vibrations, with even intervials of quiet. So it is like this: (vibration for a half sec than qiuet for a half sec then vibration for a half sec then quiet for a half sec) and so on. What that sounds like to me is something is turning lopsided inside the motor, which was my worst fear. :( I will inform Ford of this new development Monday, but if anyone else has this problem, then please post here....
  • mustang5mustang5 Posts: 4
    Hi everyone, I had the same problem with my cd and had it replaced by the dealer. Ive also had the fuel light and engine light problem also. The dealer is telling me that its a sensor problem on the fuel tank. The only problem is the part is on back order until June 30th and may under go a redesign of the unit. Which tells me they already know of the problem. Hope this helps , and your not alone with these problems. Otherwise this is by far the best mustang Ive ever owned.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,710
    cmnott....very cool.

    I'm joining my sisters there. We've got some family outside of Venice, so I'm looking forward to driving whatever rental car I get around the Tuscany region.

    A Mustang would be very, very fun to drive there indeed, but obviously won't happen. That said, I'm also looking forward to driving some Italian iron, too.

    We are starting our treck in Rome. It was strongly suggested that I not drive the rental in Rome. But, I've driven in Mexico City around the Zona Rosa so I can't imagine driving in Rome to be any worse than that.
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    Rome is fine if you understand Italians. They are VERY skillful drivers and very cool (patient). They do not exhibit road rage. But you have to grab every opportunity that presents itself. If you let people in and are overly courteous, you have basically forfeited your driving rights in Italy. Be decisive or forget it. Also learn how to wiggle through crowds of people. Cars and people are way more intimate there than here.

    A stickshift Mustang would be a chore in European cities but fine on back roads as long as they weren't too narrow. Italians love cars as you know.
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,710
    Hey Shifty.....thanks for the advice.

    Personally, I can't wait to drive a little Fiat, Citroen or whatever they give me at the rental counter.

    Sorry for hijacking the thread....back to regular scheduled programming.
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright Sonoma, CaliforniaPosts: 64,482
    Engine vibration: Did you say you can feel this in NEUTRAL or no? If it only happens in gear I would strongly suspect the driveshaft as driveshafts in general are notorious for producing periodic vibrations in various cycles and rpms.
  • Mustang 5: Thanks for the response on the fuel and engine light. I was just told late Friday that my fuel pump needs to be replaced because the sensor is bad. Did I understand you correct when you said your dealer said it was the fuel tank? I wonder which one is correct...thanks again for the info. They did fix the front suspension parts from the TSB, but the beeping sound that comes on because of the fuel data light error is driving me crazy. I'm driving it as little as possible. It'll take 7-10 days for the fuel pump to come in. Does your dealership give you a rental or are you just out of luck when it's in the shop? They gave me one for just the day, but I'm on my own now.
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Thanks for the reply Mr. Shiftright, and the answer to your question seems to be yes AND no. It now seems I have TWO different problems causing vibration. I even gave them names...there is the notorious "2900 vibration" and the now famous "3250 vibration". "The 3250 vibration" vibrates between 3250 and 3400 RPM and it is loud. The same vibration also occurs between 1200 and 1300 RPM, and sounds the same. With those two, it dosen't matter if it is in neutral or not, so they must be engine induced.

    The "2900 vibration" is much different. In this case, a light but irritating vibration occurs between the 2300 and 2900 RPM range. If I put in in neutral but maintain those RPM stops! So my conclution is that the "2900 vibration" is in the drivetrain (ie. tranny, driveshaft, or rear-end). You may be right about the driveshaft, I hear the yoke gets messed up easy. I'm going to see if the "2900 vibe" will do it's dance in every gear. If it does, then I'm looking at the driveshaft or rear-end. But if it dosen't...then I might be looking at a tranny :( I haven't informed ford yet of the "2900 vibration", just the "3250 and 1200 vibrations". I think I'm more worried about the 3250 then I am the 2900 because the 3250 is "engine induced which worries me. Others have the 3200 problem, but I haven't read anyone having the "2900" I may of found a new one. Thanks for the replies and any advice is appreciated.....

    Oh and one more thing ...has anyone noticed the "slowww RPM drop rate" or is it just me? I noticed that on ford's website the RPM gauge winds down as slowly as mine, so I am assuming it is that way in every 2005 Mustang. What I mean is when you rev it, it takes FOREVER for the RPM's to come back down! And if you get on it just a little, becuase of the mighty slow RPM drop, your practically at the same RPM from when you leave one gear, to when you shift into the next one, making it extreamly akward. A freind of mine says it is because Ford put a extra heavy flywheel in there so it takes forever for the RPM's to wind down. You think that's what it is? And what can I do about it? Thanks....
  • mustang5mustang5 Posts: 4
    Mustangsally3 Every time Ive had mine in , the dealer has given me a rental. My dealer said it was a sensor problem. Let me know how it goes. I am not getting any beeping sound yet because they cleared the signal from the computer. The dealer has worked with ford techs twice now and hopefully are figuring it out. I though if your car is under warranty , you should get a rental. The Scottsdale dealership I go to, was very eager to get me a rental when I need it.
  • lateralglateralg Posts: 929
    It's my guess that it's emission control related. An abrupt throttle closing or fuel shut off may have adverse effect on emissions. Although a heavy flywheel would have a similar effect, I doubt that it's the explanation.

    RPM's ???

    If Revolutions Per Minute = RPM's,
    Then shouldn't
    Miles Per Hour = MPH's ? :)
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Thank You for your helpful reply...I hope it is indeed an emissions thing. And if it is, is there a computer thingy I can buy to adjust the computer in the engine so that my RPM's can drop normally? And if it is the flywheel, would a 2004 GT's flywheel fit? I'm thinking it would since it's pretty much the same 4.6 liter engine. Of course, if it is emissions, it would be easier....
  • lateralglateralg Posts: 929
    "is there a computer thingy I can buy to adjust the computer in the engine so that my RPM's can drop normally?"

    Possibly, but I don't know.

    I'm confident that a flywheel change would accomplish nothing but reduce your bank account. I see no reason for Ford to increase the mass of the flywheel. I see reasons for reducing it: Better acceleration, Reduced vehicle weight, Lower cost.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the '04 and '05 service flywheels are the same part number. You may be able to determine this by checking with an on-line Ford dealer. Try Signature L-M.

    I'm now donning my terminology cop hat. It's RPM, not RPM's. RPM's would be the abbreviation for Revolutions Per MinuteS. :D
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Thanks I'll check the part numbers and see....I will ask around for info for a "programing tool" for the engine and if it will help.

    Your "RPM vs. RPM's" point is well taken'...from now on (for me at least) it shall be "RPM"
  • Hi I have had my new mustang for about 3-4 months too and am having problems with it . I already had the TSB on the 25r3z*18183*A
    Bracket fixed for the noisy clunking sound in steering right or left in driveways,but have more problem, was Wondering if anybody else has had this problem with there new 05 mustang, or what it is? It's like a wineing sound coming from the rear only acclerateing on the freeway a odd sound ? And has anybody had problems with there brake fluid reservoir leaking on the plastic that the brake fluid is in ?

    my brakes are also squeaking when coming to a stop.
    and have the problem like someone was having with the sound from puting it from park to drive or reverse on the automatic shifter its like a clunking sound .
    and when takeing of on the freeway it shifts different than it did from when i bought it. i made appoitment so they better check all of it out when i bring it in or all be mad i love the car gets alot of looks but the little defects or problems are getin on my nervese. If anyone has these problems or know what they are please respond to my message thank you very much i appreciate it take care Joe .
  • Hi i'm Joe I also have a 05 mustang auto and i just started to hear the whine from the back today when i was on the freeway with my windows up . I was woundering if you fixed your whine? and what it was? please respond back i'd appreciate it thank you take care .
  • graphicguygraphicguy Edmunds Poster EmeritusPosts: 12,710
    I'm just curious....what car did you own prior to your current Mustang?
    2019 Kia Stinger GT2
  • tmerrisstmerriss Posts: 42
    Ok, an update:

    Ford says that the famous "3200 RPM" problem that many GT owners seem to have, may be a faulty transmission they are going to put a new one on Thursday to see if that corrects that vibration problem. Still no word on the "2900 vibration" problem, but i will report as soon as I know anything....
  • 5twenty5twenty Posts: 11
    I had the front end popping noise issue fixed last week and it is wonderful to be able to drive around a parking lot without the front end making obnoxious noises. What I don't know is if I received the 'revised' part. What are the symptoms of having the part before it was revised?
  • jhipsterjhipster Posts: 6
    My 05 gt automatic mustang has been making a wineing and howling sound since mile 1.The sound starts at 45 mph to 60 mph then dissappears.The dealership has given up finding problem and is waiting for ford to come up with a fix .
    my buddy allens 05 gt mustang makes a similar whine.
    Please if you find out any thing about this whineing let me know
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Posts: 1,926
    I believe I read it here on in the other Mustangforums that there is a TSB out on the rear differential. IIRC, some of them may have differentials without enough runout in the spider gears or something and could bind and fail. Matter of fact, when I was scheduling my first service, the service writer asked me if I was hearing any noises coming from the rearend. Knock on wood, I haven't had any powertrain or drivetrain issues. No vibrations, no noises, etc. The only thing is very faint gear whine from the transmission, which is to be expected since the transmission is basically raised up into the cockpit of the car.

    The only common problems I've encountered are the suspension popping during crawl speed maneuvers, the knocking from the missing heat shield bolts, the intermittent gas fill problem, and the occasional skip from the Shaker1000. All very minor problems and the only annoying one is the gas fill thing.

    Anyway, your service department should know about the rearend noise and how to fix it. I think they're brushing you off.
  • stanggtstanggt Posts: 5
    Does the whine your hearing sound like an ambulance siren? If so, then I had the same problem and Ford couldn't find the problem so they put a brand new transmission in my 05 GT.
This discussion has been closed.