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Comments
It's my understanding (but maybe not a confirmed fact) that the new RAV4 has a system similar to (but not quite as advanced) as the MDX/Pilot and will likely outperform the AWD system of the current CRV. Is it the ideal traction system - no but I am VERY happy with the performance of the system in my MDX. If the new RAV is similar then it will perform quite well. Just something to consider.
I agree that there is significantly more overlap between the RAV4 and the Highlander now. The latter continues to hold the edge in ride comfort/isolation, passenger and cargo room, and luxury amenities, but the '06 RAV4 has narrowed the gap remarkably. In a few respects (e.g. more powerful V6, aux audio input), the RAV4 actually excels. About the only option the Highlander offers I wish the RAV4 did as well, is a navigation system (and both should offer satellite radio, BTW).
I strongly suspect the RAV4 will--once people are more familiar with it and prices stablize--start to cannibalize some of the Highlander sales, and/or put greater pricing pressure on it.
I don't think there's such a thing as an "ideal" AWD/4WD system. Some are clearly very advanced and offer incredible off-roading prowess (e.g. Mercedes G-Wagon, Range Rover), but these advantages are very expensive, complicated, and heavy. Simpler systems (like the RAV4's) may not get you through the Rubicon Trail, but undeniably offer substantially more traction than a 2WD drivetrain, and is suitable for the majority of drivers in slippery, on-road conditions.
It seems like some of these dealerships are not getting OFF the MSRP which I think is outrageous!
I have heard that the rule of thumb is to negotiate the following:
(Invoice - factory incentives - holdback) + 5% = my offer
I gave one offer of $21,500 (to include car, taxes, tags, processing fees, etc.)which was quickly denied. What have others experienced in their quest to find the best deal for a Base model Rav4 SUV?
Thanks
For non-off-road use the new AWD system in the Lexus IS and GS, or even the Volvo XC90 seem to be the ideal.
You bring up an excellent reason for the flip window though - transporting long items. I've used the flip rear window in my 2door Explorer a few times after going to Lowes or Home Depot. I could just as well put something on the roof rack but it's nice to have the item inside the car, and at an angle pointing downward to keep it secure even before you begin to tie it down. I tend to be very paranoid when I'm driving with something that has even a remote chance of flying out of the car and it makes me less nervous to have it inside with the flip window that almost all other options.
Jerry
We were give rates by our (mainstream) insurer back in 2004 for 4 vehicles. My wife and I are both roughly 50, have no kids drive 10,000 miles or less per year, live in a small college town in the midwest and have spotless driving records. We asked for quotes on 4 vehicles. The cheapest was the Ford Escape followed by the Honda CR-V, the Toyota RAV4 and the Subaru Impreza WRX wagon (admittedly in a different league that the others). For us the CR-V was about $60 less/year than the RAV4 and the Escape was about $150 less/year. The explanation from our insurance agent was that Ford parts/repair are the cheapest followed by Honda and then Toyota. The WRX was considerably more expensive because of the turbocharged engine (I believe that it was about $150/year more than the RAV4 and $300 more per year than the Escape. Safety features had minimal impact on the overall rate quoted for each vehicle and nothing was said about the rear-mounted tire on the CR-V and RAV4.
Gogiboy
Glad to hear that insurance on the new RAV is relatively inexpensive. So maybe they haven't had to replace many rear doors and this is all a tempest in a tea pot. I'm sure the 6cyl will be a little higher than the 4cyl. Hopefully not much.
For your professional interest, the Toyota model is one that's continually intriguing. Their thinking is at least 10 years out, sometimes 20 years out and sometimes they adjust on the fly so-to-speak.
My observations from studying their moves and successes, and occasional failures, is that as a full line manufacturer they strive to have solid continuity throughout the lineup. Continuity?
IMO Toyota has discovered (?) that to maintain the profitability of a specific vehicle that product must have solid support below it. It cant just exist alone in a vacuum. This assumes that prior studies have shown that the product, such as the RAV4, will be accepted in the first place. This 'cute-ute' segment btw was a product niche that Toyota discovered/created back in the mid 90's.
To whit: Utility vehicles
Continuity IMO means that if one single solitary vehicle is put into the market without solid support underneath it market forces will erode the price and profitability because there are no other less expensive choices. Now put another attractive but less expensive vehicle below it and the frugal buyer who doesnt want to pay say $26000 for a vehicle might be willing to pay $24K or $22K or 19K or $17K or $15K. Without these other 'choices' the market will drive down the price of say the 4c Highlander at $26K to the low $20K range. Some buyers will pay $20K some $23K some $26K etc. So, offer the frugal buyers other choices. Instead of one Highlander for all buyers how about:
Scion xB $15K entry level buyers
Matrix .. $16K
Matrix XR .. $18K
Matrix XR AWD $20K
RAV 4c FWD $22K
RAV 4c AWD $24K
RAV 4c Ltd FWD $26K
RAV 4c Ltd AWD $28K
RAV V6 FWD $25K ? TBD
RAV V6 AWD $27K ? TBD
RAV V6 Ltd AWD $29K ? TBD
Highlander 4c FWD $26K ( Huh? seems redundant )
Highlander V6 FWD $28K
Highlander V6 AWD $30K
Highlander V6 Ltd FWD $35K
Highlander V6 Ltd AWD $37K
HyHighlander V6 FWD $33K
HYHighlander V6 AWD $35K
HyHighlander V6 AWD $41K
As you can see the 4c FWD Highlander is ~$4000 more expensive than the RAV for about the same vehicle. IMO this trim level is finished next Fall when the Highlander is redone. The RAV has taken the place of all the 4c Highlander models. But also by having a world class V6 at the top of it's line the RAV supports the new Highlander which will have the same engine but a significantly bigger body and more features - and likely a higher price. The buyers who don't want to go into the $30K+ range for a V6 midsize crossover vehicle ( a segment which btw Toyota also created in the late 90's with the Rx300 ) then they can opt down to the RAV V6 in the mid to uppper $20k range.
In addition to building world class vehicles, the Marketing Dept makes relatively few 'oops' but they almost always seem to fix them right away. I can think of 4 in the last 6 yrs.
The Echo.. dull/uninspiring - replaced by the xA, xB and Yaris;
The rubber clad 4runners launched initially - market hated them; gone in 4 months never produced again;
The 4c Highlander - see above
The Hybrid Highlander V6 - jury is still out but I think it's the wrong engine for the Toyota buyer; I think it should be linked with the 2.4L to reach a different price point and more buyers.
All mechanical items have some level of error inherent in them ( see below ). In general the items you hear about are annoyances rather than major product failures. I've had 4 camry's in a row that I've put in excess of 150K miles on each with little or no failures. ( strut caps on one @98000 mi when our parking lot was being redone and it was filled with potholes; and a water pump on another @ 53000 mi replaced under warranty during an oil change. )
There was an interesting article I believe in Business Week recently about the comparison of the Georgetown KY Camry plant and the GM Oshawa plant. Both use the 'andon cord' to signal an error or failure during vehicle production. In KY it's pulled 2500 times in a day (!!!) I believe. When pulled the error has to be investigated/corrected. At Oshawa, one of GM's premier plants, it's pulled about 17 times in a day???? The conclusion isnt 'Wow GM is way better than Toyota' it's 'They dont understand that they dont understand yet'. Because of the inherent variability in any mechanical process there should be 2000-3000 daily occasions where things arent perfect in a large auto plant. Each needs to be corrected.
Interesting comment. Why do you feel it's outrageous? Would you feel differntly if you or your family owned the store?
That being said, even though I work for a Toyota store, I also shop for the best deal I can get... even maybe at a competitor!!! :surprise: I dont think it's outrageous for a store to stick to a price it's their product and their decision. It's how business is done everywhere on every product. It's not a big deal.
They may not be able to move the items they have in inventory at say Sticker Price but that's their decision. If they can't they will have to adjust the pricing. Prius' have been at sticker price since 2001. As an employee if I wanted an '06 I would have had to pay sticker just like anyone else. It's just business.
Frank
tidester, host
In my opinion, stability control (which, as you point out, is only available on the top-of-the-line Outback), is an important safety feature as well, arguably more so than AWD/4WD since it can help keep the car pointing straight (or wherever you steer it) while driving or braking at any speed on any road surface, while AWD is most helpful in maximizing traction when accelerating from slow speeds on slippery roads.
We compared these two vehicles as well, and ended up choosing the RAV4, mainly because of the higher seeting position, the more comfortable seats, the greater storage capacity, and the availability of stability control (at the $27k price point). Comparing their AWD/4WD systems, for us at least, was more academic than practical.
Dealer says he sees V6 units on the build schedule in January now but no allocations to him yet. He predicts he will get his first V6 in late Feb. The bad news is if your are in the NE region, only 7% of the build will be model 4443 which is Sport V6 4WD and none will come with Side curtain air bag option as far as he can tell. He sais the NE region will get about 1700 RAV4s each month near term ant that is about 12 RAVs per dealer..not much. About 68% will be base. Since he was telling me what I did not want to hear, I assume he had no reason to fib. He says story in NY is still...pay MSRP. I do know that you can see Sport with side bags on the Fritzmall site.
So I am waiting to drive the V6.
Believe it or not I am cross shopping with Scion xB and Honda Element for a family of 2 adults and 2 infants. I am also considering an Odyssey Minivan or Nissan Murano. I am frugal and will go for whatever meets the need. I am tall at 6' 4" with a 36 inch inseam and the RAV fits great thanks to the telescoping wheel and seat adjustments. This also leaves plenty of backseat even if I am comfy.
The RAV is a much more practical choice for me than the xB -- even more back seat and decent storage. I like the xB's unique looks and great interior space and it appeals to my frugal side. But it lacks cargo room and some amenities like cruise. In sum, the xB is a great every day around town car but the RAV4 would be a road trip car. I like the sport because you get a neat black interior. Inside is very functional and it goes for about $25k (about $10k more than xB). A better choice for my needs than an Element given the interior space and 5 door config.
The Fitzmall guys look better everyday. I had emailed them asking how I would get a car to NY if I bought from them and how I would get from BWI airport to the car. It costs $29+tax to fly from my house to BWI on a weekend advance.
This was their response, you gotta love it.
"Hi Jim,
My name is ..... at Fitzgerald Toyota. We would come to the Airport and drop off the vehicle to you there. We can fed ex paperwork prior to that and have everything done except for delivery. If you pay cash, we can give you a 60 day tag for $19 and you can title the vehicle yourself. If you want us to do the tag and title for N.Y we will gladly do that as well. Please call....
Sincerely,
Sales Manager"
Also they advised me that they will have V6 versions by the end of this month but they will sell for $1000 over invoice instead of $700. Capitalism at work!
My wife always said she would never own a mini-van but we test drove them before our first child was born and we quickly became believers in their functionality, and we purchased an '03 model.
Best features:
1. The Odyssey's power sliding doors are a life-saver when your arms are full of kids + groceries + sippy cups + whatever else.
2. Tons of storage with the 3rd row seat stowed, or someplace Grandma and Grandpa can sit when they visit and we all want to go somewhere in one vehicle.
3. f you can swing it, the optional rear entertainment system (DVD) is a real life-saver on those long road trips. I can practically recite Finding Nemo and Toy Story just from memory after 2.5 years of listening to them over and over.
4. Decent power, good handling. Definitely not a sports car but the fun factor is higher than you would think for a mini-van.
I'd be glad to give you my opinion on any specific questions you might have - just let me know.
Just kidding
Jim D
Frank
I have an Accord and a Subaru LL Bean wagon and the bean is what will be sold for this next car. My choices must have hauling ability, fit me and rear passengers / car seats. Perhaps because I over think things, I have convinced myself that if we get something as big as the Ody, I need the backup camera -- and that necessitates that you also get leather and DVD in the Honda world - ie a $35k purchase.
Now the RAV comes out and I don't have to tell you as another person 6' 4" tall - it is VERY exciting to find car you like that fits! It fits, the rear seats are big, it's sorta sporty and AWD is handy in MI, OH, and MN winters (where we travel). And its roughly $25k.
Ironically, a choice that seems even more FUN is $10k cheaper still - the xB. Again a tall guys dream in the interior - both front and rear seat. And sorta quirky cool. Not a trip car or one that can haul a lot stuff (but some with rear seats down) but arguably better for our circumstances than the Subaru.
I'll be 40 this year and the xB with a stick is actually FUN. Fun and cheap and reliable Toyota - its hard to resist. Plus the fact that I could essentially trade the '02 Subaru straight up for it, makes it very hard to resist.
I actually think the Ody looks better than the RAV and the interior with heated seats and room galore is better than the Toyos.
So my spectrum of choices spans $20k.
xB ($15k) - RAV4 ($25k) - Ody ($35k)
With kids, there are always other uses for money - retirement, college savings, unanticipated emergencies.
People buy on emotion but I am usually able to overcome that. Baby number 2 is due to be with us in September and I would like to pull the trigger before then.
Any how, the size and packaging impressed me right off the bat. It's tall, roomy, and the doors open wide. It feels more mid-size than small.
The spare protrudes past the end of the bumper, so I worry about backing into a pole or something. It would push against the glass and break it, just like the last generation did in IIHS tests.
It also blocks visibility somewhat. The rear glass is pretty high, and not that wide. There are blind spots on the D-pillars and right where the spare is, directly behind. They should make a backup camera an option.
The rear storage bin is impressively big, should fit a spare. The 2-row models should have that option.
It was Fitz, so they have a Subaru dealer back-to-back. I sat in a Forester and the first thing you notice is visibility is a whole lot better. But it is a lot smaller. Tough call, the Forester is lower to the ground yet is has more clearance, plus the visibility, but the RAV4 sure does offer a lot more space.
I'll compare AWD systems in a seperate posting.
-juice
Some say 4WD means you have a low range, if so the RAV4 is not truly 4WD. But others say if the two axles lock together, it is 4WD. And the RAV4 does that, albeit temporarily.
AWD is when it's full-time, i.e. when there is a center differential that allows the two axles to move at different speeds, yet both get power all the time. Audi pioneered AWD with its brilliant Torsen systems, though even those have a weak spot (more on that later). By this definition, the RAV4 is not AWD.
So what is it, then?
I would call it automatic, part-time 4WD. When active, the axles are temporarily locked together, i.e. there is no center differential so it can't be in effect on dry pavement, or you could not do a U-turn without a lot of tire squeel. I'm sure the owner's manual tells you not to use the manual lock button unless the pavement is slippery.
When I evaluate a traction system, the question I ask include:
* is the front axle managed?
* is the rear axle managed?
* is the system engineered for full-time use?
* is the system proactive (vs. reactive)?
* can the system send all the power to either axle?
For the RAV4, let's answer those:
YES. Traction control does that.
YES. Again, thanks to traction control.
NO. It's for slippery surfaces and part-time only.
NO. It's reactive.
NO. It cannot send 100% of power to the rear axle.
So it meets 2/5 criteria. But that ain't bad.
For the Volvo XC90, the answers are Y, Y, N, N, N. Haldex is still reactive, part-time, and limited in the torque distribution. It may react quicker, but other than that it's not better than Toyota's system.
For Audi Quattro, the answer are Y, Y, Y, Y, and N. 4 out of 5. Why? Because Torsens have a bias ratio, for Audi it is 2 to 1. That means the system is limited to sending 67% of torque to either axle, at most.
Surprise, Subaru's VDC wins here. It can do all 5. But you can only get VDC on the high-end Outback and the Tribeca.
The Forester with auto-AWD gets 3 of those, full-time, 100% to either axle, and the rear axle is managed by an LSD (on all but the base model).
Forester with a manual gets 2 or 3 also.
Subtle differences, but I do prefer the feel of having some power to the rear axle at all times. I'd rather not slip in the first place vs. slip and then try to catch the skid.
-juice
xB ($15k) - RAV4 ($25k) - Ody ($35k)
Maybe I missed it but you may want to take a look at the Honda Element. It doesn't have true 4 doors but it's larger than the xB and it seems very kid friendly and it's very reasonably priced imo. The Element also has excellent room in the back (after you recline the sit abit) as our saleman was 6'4" and he showed us that it was no problem for him. I'm not sure how much fun the Element would drive against the xB though - I found the Element to be a bit sluggish.
Any reason you're ditching the Subaru?
It is a big hassle to let people in and out of the backseat (which you would do often with kids) and only 2 people can sit in back since it's a 4-seater.
Element is for those who only have passengers in the back seat rarely.
F
I am waiting to try the v6 but would say the I4 is perfectly adequate for most drivers. Certainly around town and suburban driving. I would not want have it if I had lots of steep hills that I wanted to travel at 65-75 with loads or lots of passengers.
But in the final analysis, you have to drive it to decide for yourself. There are lots of RAVs around at dealers now and they seem anxious to let you have a drive. I have driven the base and 3 different sports. Two of those drives were without the salesman which is good.
I am guessing that the V6 Sport with a good set of tires might embaress some BMW X3 drivers and it is 9-10K cheaper. We shall see.