General Motors recently introduced a dual-mode hybrid for the Chevy Tahoe and the GMC Yukon. In addition, GM is developing a 4.5-l diesel V-8, the first light-duty V-8 clean diesel for North America. The Tahoe and Yukon will possibly have the diesel engine as an option, as well. This raises some interesting questions.
How do these two quite different power trains fit into GM's future?
We have an energy and propulsion strategy at General Motors and it's all centered around a path that eventually removes the vehicle from the energy and environmental debate. The intention is to get increasingly better fuel economy and reduce the emissions that are emitted by our power trains. We have a road map that gets us moving down that path that goes through the near term, the midterm and then eventually the long term.
The diesel engine is a critical part of that propulsion strategy. It is important to put it in context, though, because there is not a single 'silver bullet.' You might think of it that there is silver buck shot and it depends really on what your specific application is — what kind of a vehicle consumer/buyer you are and how you use the vehicle that best addresses what power train is the best option for you.
Interesting changes from GM big wig Lutz's earlier PR stated diesel positions. As a practical matter, (my .02 cents) seems the only way to keep GM SUV/1500 series truck sizes (Ford, Chrysler, also) on life support. I would NOT be surprised if GM/Ford/Chrysler did this on their product lines, that Toyota will follow with a D2 Sequoia / Forerunner/ Tundra (or some such). Finally, 20-40% better fuel economy is making the "energy efficient" light bulbs (lamps, for you stage lighting folks) come on!? :shades:
We have been watching a slew of (diesel) changes. Some that come to mind: tightening rules, loose rules, VW delays of new product due to further durability testing, people really starting to "GET" diesels. Honda going from a diesel Civic to Accord platform diesel to....Acura...., etc. Less than 3% of the passenger diesel fleet to 2%.... :lemon: :shades: Perhaps it is all fiction!?
True last statement! Out of sight is...- out of mind. Actually I have given serious thought to removing the TDI logo plate on the rear of the car. But then again, ...who really knows what it means? More germane...who really CARES!?
I would say no, but I have been wrong before. :shades: In NY diesel is at $4.39 and RUG is at $3.47. (AAA) A year ago diesel was $3.00 a gallon. The good old days!! You would think that demand would drop and prices would peak. I have a feeling people are still putting their fuel purchases on credit cards -- even the truckers. It might take another 6 months or so before we see the full impact of the high diesel prices.
It is surprising that diesel costs a lot more to refine vs. gasoline even when you consider that it is ULSD. 3.38 x 0.18 = $0.61 3.03 x 0.08 = $0.24 Diesel cost to refine per barrel $25.62 Gasoline cost to refine per barrel $10.08
I find it difficult to understand why it should cost more to refine Diesel than it does Gasoline, (when both are of the ULS variety we get here in Europe). Surely to refine Gasoline takes more heat input than for Diesel ? Maybe I'm missing something so I'll ask my refining chum.
From my point of view the question of Diesel vs Gasoline came down, at least in part, to "Do I want to use less fuel long term ?". Yes I do, so I switched to diesel about 4 years ago - but it helps that we have the choice of most makes/models in either fuel.
U.K. fuel prices are currently averaging as follows : Gasoline = $8.13 and Diesel = $8.81 per US Gallon equiv. Even at that delta it still makes sense to run Diesel on purely economic grounds and also on the "Use less" premise. Win win. I think choosing your fuel purely on a "today's cost to run" is one of those quests that will run forever. Choosing your fuel on a "Use less long term" basis makes it much easier to choose Diesel.................if you can choose a car you want with a Diesel engine.
Just looking real fast at the eia.gov you posted , it would seem you may not have accounted for the application (ratio) which would explain the $15.37 or so dollar differential: more importantly 8% vs 18% cost differential (per barrel- your example) . As such 55% D2 and growing in Europe and 2% in US down from 3%= 27.5 x greater demand. A non technical view:D2 is a limited edition designer fuel. The interesting thing is that since D2 is the back bone of the transportation and/or trucking industry part of the equation indicates it is a HAVE to HAVE.
So for example refinery costs are per gal .6084 cents D2 vs .24.24 cents RUG. (=.366 per gal more) What goes unsaid: passenger vehicle fleet: 98% RUG to PUG vs D2. @ 2 % .
So for example with out a doubt, they recover MORE than their costs even with the ratio mismatch in the gal price difference between 3.38 and 3.03 per gal (=.35 cents per gal) . They also get huge subsidies and tax credits etc, etc.
Another is that D2 can be refined from light sweet crude and more importantly OTHER THAN light sweet crude @ 30-40% discount!!!!! LSC is what almost EVERYBODY refers to the price of a barrel of oil. Now gasoline CAN be refined from other than light sweet crude but not unexpectedly the refinery costs are FAR higher.
So in the overall picture of things, if one set of costs is 10% higher (refinery), but it is offset by 30-40% cheaper costs crude oil) of goods, am I making more or less money? (not even factoring in here the tax subsidies, write offs, tax credits)
Again it would be interesting to see what Al Torque's example would be in the UK equivalent of EIA.gov. aka D2 passenger vehicle fleet @ 55% and growing.
... Your percentages may be correct; however I don't think that equates to retail price, just the refiners cost. There must be a rather large percentage of marketing in the retail price.
The EIA web site said that the prices listed were for retail. It said "Retail Price: $3.03/gallon"
The marketing part actually comes under the Marketing and Distribution. I left out the word marketing just to make the line a bit shorter. It is probably best to go to the actual web site and see for yourself.
" would seem you may not have accounted for the application (ratio) which would explain the $15.37 or so dollar differential:"
I would suggest that the application ratio would be total European diesel vehicles versus total U.S. diesel vehicles - not just cars. The demand would be based on all vehicles (trucks, cars, RVs...) and heating oil demand. The 55:2 ratio would be different if all diesels are added in.
To be honest, I am not sure what the deal is with the EIA numbers. They do seem a bit off. As an example Gas crude costs $2.09 = $3.03 x 0.69 Diesel crude costs $2.13 = $3.38 x 0.63
How can the crude costs be different? A percent of the oil gets turned into diesel and a percent gets turned into gasoline in a typical refinery. Both should have the same cost if they are being made from the same barrel of oil. I suppose they could be using some "ancient" formula that no longer matches the current situation.
"...So, do you see someone actually paying 20 percent more to purchase a diesel-powered vehicle and 20 percent more to fill up the tank... only to wind up with a 20-percent lower fuel consumption?..."
$11,000 more for a Duramax diesel truck, Ouch!!!! And this is a guy with access to the numbers. He is also a key decision maker at GM. We should not expect too many diesel cars coming out of GM anytime soon.
In another year or two all this should clear up and we will have some real numbers to work with regarding the new diesel vehicles. In the mean time the fur is flying. I am thinking of going with one of those new air cars.
I'm in full agreement with you. That is the reason I say the EPA and CARB have a different agenda than cutting back on oil usage. The US could have implemented a gradual reduction in diesel emissions as has been done in the EU. Instead they keep upping the anti each time a new level is reached in diesel emissions development. The old carrot in front of the horse trick. The US and especially the powers in CARB states are so anti diesel I will be surprised if they ever open the door for diesel cars. They cannot stand the thought of losing 50% of their highway revenue. And they have sold the dirty diesel story to gullible Americans that believe every thing the talking heads tell them.
As the main man behind the Chevrolet Volt project, Bob Lutz is clearly interested in developing new solutions to reduce our collective dependence on oil. But according to him, diesel is not the way of the future.
So starving the worlds population is the better alternative?
CNN) -- Riots from Haiti to Bangladesh to Egypt over the soaring costs of basic foods have brought the issue to a boiling point and catapulted it to the forefront of the world's attention, the head of an agency focused on global development said Monday.
"This is the world's big story," said Jeffrey Sachs, director of Columbia University's Earth Institute. "The finance ministers were in shock, almost in panic this weekend," he said on CNN's "American Morning," in a reference to top economic officials who gathered in Washington. "There are riots all over the world in the poor countries ... and, of course, our own poor are feeling it in the United States." World Bank President Robert Zoellick has said the surging costs could mean "seven lost years" in the fight against worldwide poverty. "While many are worrying about filling their gas tanks, many others around the world are struggling to fill their stomachs, and it is getting more and more difficult every day," Zoellick said late last week in a speech opening meetings with finance ministers.
Actually it has been a hidden in plain sight secret for a very long time. The fact of the matter (Gagrice might want to chime in here) is that not all "crude oil is= to or same as "crude oil". Light sweet crude refines to RUG to PUG far more efficiently and hence "costs less" than other than light sweet crude.
On the other hand, or should we say hand in glove with that, "other than light sweet crude" converts far more readily (other things also: but on topic) to D2.
... There's a new Ford 4.4, V~8, in Google news. It has urea after treatment and a particulate trap. Probably cleaner than any gasser and definitely less carbon. Even CARB will not be able to complain. So why is it a mid-year, oh-ten introduction ? Suppose to top off the urea @ the same time as oil changes. Infrastructure.
...""The international community must fill the at least $500 million food gap identified by the U.N.'s World Food Programme to meet emergency needs," he said. "Governments should be able to come up with this assistance and come up with it now."
The White House announced Monday evening that an estimated $200 million in emergency food aid would be made available through the U.S. Agency for International Development."...
Funny how the USA gets stuck with 40% of the total of the "emergency fund" with places like China, Russia, Middle East, London, (hope I did not leave any body elses fav cash generating economy) absolutely and totally FLUSH with WORLD money's.
..."numerous statistical analyses have demonstrated that the price of oil -- not corn prices or ethanol production -- has the greatest impact on consumer food prices because it is integral to virtually every phase of food production, from processing to packaging to transportation."...
So the answer is use MORE of it; not less !?
(Diesel gets 20-40% better fuel mileage on like model cars example diesel Jetta gets 49 mpg vs gasser Jetta 2.0/1.8T gets 29 mpg? ) Point being 98% of US Passenger Vehicle fleet is RUG to PUG with 2% being diesel?
Seems like the new "3rd world look" is offensive to the French.
"France may outlaw inciting thinness"
By DEVORAH LAUTER, Associated Press Writer
Funny when ART mirrors REALITY!?
Or is the "let em eat cake" policy still around?
..."if a young girl is skinny or not skinny," he said. "That doesn't exist in the world, and it will certainly not exist in France.""...
While there might be half truths, certainly there are the appearances of truths. In today's society that is really all it takes.
Again this plugs into the prior posts about algae and its adaptive use for bio diesel. Not that some or most will switch to eating algae products, but truthly on a multitude of levels, hydroponic growth is way more efficient and effective than land growth. So FOOD products can be added if the demand should pick up. It goes without saying there is/has been/will continue to be OIL demand.
Silly Bob. I guess he thinks that we the American public just don't know that all GM brands in Europe sell diesels with no premium or far less than 20%.
Lutz has always worked hard to push diesel aside in the US market.
He might find that his position is not tenable when the competition starts to market F-150's that get 25 mpg.
I thought it might be good to do another comparison between diesel and RUG. It would be interesting to see what the cost breakdown for diesel is in Alaska versus Mass. Is the cost difference because of distribution, marketing, cost of crude or maybe profits?
State Diff. Percent Alaska $0.52 14.2% Alabama $0.72 22.0% Arkansas $0.74 22.6% Arizona $0.72 21.6% California $0.56 14.6% Colorado $0.71 21.2% Connecticut $0.89 25.6% D. C. $0.72 20.9% Delaware $0.93 28.3% Florida $0.69 20.3% Georgia $0.72 21.5% Hawaii $0.55 14.7% Iowa $0.73 22.0% Idaho $0.82 24.5% Illinois $0.69 19.8% Indiana $0.70 20.5% Kansas $0.79 24.0% Kentucky $0.64 18.9% Louisiana $0.70 21.3% Massachusetts $1.03 31.9% Maryland $0.82 24.6% Maine $0.87 26.0% Michigan $0.74 21.3% Minnesota $0.79 24.4% Missouri $0.74 22.8% Mississippi $0.68 20.8% Montana $0.75 22.1% North Carolina $0.71 21.1% North Dakota $0.70 20.8% Nebraska $0.67 20.0% New Hampshire $0.97 30.3% New Jersey $1.02 32.5% New Mexico $0.72 21.4% Nevada $0.58 16.5% New York $0.95 27.3% Ohio $0.78 23.4% Oklahoma $0.69 21.2% Oregon $0.71 20.4% Pennsylvania $0.99 29.6% Rhode Island $1.01 30.9% South Carolina $0.75 23.3% South Dakota $0.67 20.0% Tennessee $0.73 22.5% Texas $0.71 21.6% Utah $0.80 24.0% Virginia $0.74 22.4% Vermont $0.97 28.9% Washington $0.76 21.2% Wisconsin $0.70 20.5% West Virginia $0.78 22.5% Wyoming $0.75 22.9% Average $0.76 22.7% Based AAA numbers from 4/15/08
I am still puzzled by the high cost of diesel in NY ($4.44) and New England. The heating season is over, the prices should be coming down.
Yeah, they are taking it on the chin. This is one of the reasons I would not buy a diesel now. I would prefer not to be "angry" each time I went to fill-up with more expensive diesel. I know a few people that were very happy with their diesel trucks when the price of diesel was less and they were getting the extra 20 to 40% better mpg. I hear a lot more complaining now. Some are trying to get use to the idea of it costing $100 for a fill. The big rigs are pushing $1,000...ouch!
You know, that reminds me. Back in the early 80's I owned a diesel MB. Back then diesel was cheaper than regular. Now all of a sudden it costs more to refine, the oil it comes from is more expensive, ulsd costs more, taxes are higher blah, blah, blah....and that converts to over $1.00 per gal more expensive than regular gas in some places! Who's kidding who here? :mad:
I really hope that no one ever perfects an engine that runs on water , as the cost of water would go up to 5 or 6 bucks a gallon. I really do have some concerns that if plug electrics ever become popular electricity rates will skyrocket.
Some of that difference is taxes. CA has a total 72 cents where AK is like 28 cents. It really makes little sense now that the heavy heating season is coming to a close. If it does not drop by May we will know that something fishy is going on. I personally think the powers in DC do not want us to be attracted to diesel cars as they are in the EU.
Fill average between 10-12 gals per visit. (14.5 gal tank capacity 2003 VW Jetta)
3,449 gals, 3,449 gals, 2,041 gals
345 to 288 visits , 345 to 288 visits, 204 to 170 visits.
2 sides of the deal: big oil/YOU.
Would you rather see more or less visits?
Would you rather see more or less fuel?
My personal bias? I like the 700 miles RANGE. Most times, I can make a round trip and fuel at the place offering the cheapest D2. On a recent trip, that meant 3 states and one foreign country. :shades:
The guy that wrote the article either doesn't have a clue or he wrote an article just to get people to react.
"So why is diesel suddenly so expensive just when the country needs it badly? That's a question that Congress should be asking oil executives next time it has them lined up for a grilling."
Since when has any of the dog and pony shows congress puts on done anything besides waste good air time. People would be better off watching Sponge Bob Square Pants.
We know at least a couple of good reasons why diesel is expensive. First, Europe is using a lot for their cars and sending the excess gasoline from their refiners to the U.S. (high diesel demand increases the price, while excessive supply of gasoline lowers gasoline prices) Second, ULSD is more expensive to produce. Third, the demand is there. We also know that each refinery has a monopoly of sorts in their specific area. They can charge whatever the traffic will bear. Some people have trouble with this concept called capitalism, but that is the way it works. Cheap fuel is not a birthright.
He also makes the comment: "If auto companies were making giant profits like the oil industry and there was sufficient consumer demand for vehicles, they would build new plants in a hurry, even though factories (like oil refineries) cost billions of dollars." No, they would not build plants in a hurry. A smart business looks at the long term ROI.
He is also ignoring the fact that refineries have done hundreds of expansions over the years and we may actually see a world wide glut of refineries in the future. There are some major 300,000+ barrel a day refineries coming on line in 2010 to 2013 in the Middle East and other places. The little and older 50,000 to 100,000 bpd refineries in the US may have trouble competing. They could go out of business. And yeah, not only will the Middle East countries make lots of money off the oil, they will also get to make money refining the oil into diesel and gasoline.
Funny how with all this modern information and systems retrieval, that one can not get the current price of RUG in Venezuela. For all the information I got on Venezuelan D2, you would think they have never even heard of it; let alone use it. So I was forced to do a comparison.
When... 4/20/2007 RUG was... "According to the American Automobile Association (AAA), gas is an average $2.86 per gallon (3.785 liters) for regular unleaded in the United States"...
The price of RUG was ..."and Venezuela at $0.19 a gallon."...
..."Taurisano pays the equivalent of $1.50 to fill his Hummer's tank."...
..."Critics of Chávez, and the president himself, agree that the subsidy is a threat to his project to transform Venezuela into a socialist society, "...
The downside for the European car makers like Mercedes is that the Euro/dollar situation has really cut into their profits. A few years back when they could sell a Benz for $60,000 they would get 60,000 Euros. Now it is about $1.60 to one Euro. At current exchange rates the $60,000 would only net them about 37,500 Euros.
So, do we call the new engine an Ethiesel or a Diethanol ?
According to Wiki (the all knowing and all seeing ) Diesel or diesel fuel in general is any fuel used in diesel engines. And, a diesel engine is an internal combustion engine which operates using the Diesel cycle. This would mean that ethanol, #1 and #2 are just part of the same big, happy family. :shades:
The year I bought the TDI, (2003 VW Jetta), VWA (as I recall or was it VWG) lost one/half billion (dollars)! I have read 4% of their total US sales were TDI's, which they had NO trouble selling.
This past weekend, I had the oppotunity to (literally) see the guts of a TDI converted to run on WVO (aka veggie oil- want fries with that?), during a clutch/flywheel upgrade. While D2 is at 4-4.35, veggie oil was at $1.75.
The downside for the European car makers like Mercedes is that the Euro/dollar situation has really cut into their profits. A few years back when they could sell a Benz for $60,000 they would get 60,000 Euros. Now it is about $1.60 to one Euro. At current exchange rates the $60,000 would only net them about 37,500 Euros.
Don't worry, they make it up in the U.K. the C-class ranges from about GBP20k for the C180 Coupe to over GBP50k for the C55 AMG Auto estate....in standard trim before any options. With the GBP hovering around the USD2 mark they look rather expensive. BMW and Audi are no cheaper. The Smart ForTwo runs from circa GBP7k for the 1.0 Pure to around GBP11k for the 1.0 Passion Cabrio.
Hybrids,(unregulated) were kept low to keep the perceived buzz going and probably the profits up. Keep in mind the TDI's (Passat, Jetta, New Beetle, Golf,) were BARELY advertised. This is is in STARK contrast with Hybrids. (Prius being the most notable.) Indeed Civic hybrid despite being a GREAT product and coincidently app 5,000 cheaper than Prius- BOMBED!! My take is Toyota called it correctly on the "looked at me", environmental statement, SNOB appeal factor. Since I did not buy one in that sense MY opinion really does not matter, but I liked the Civic hybrid as it looked like another Civic: be it gasser, diesel, hydrogen, natural gas, etc.
Unfortunately hypothetical, as they were REGULATED in the %. If they were able to have brought more-say 2x, they would not have had any problems- swag on my part, but perhaps they would have lost less money! I tell you what, at the time I was tempted to buy more than one, and looking back, it was a mistake not to have. Up until 4/5th year the car with much more mileage could have fetched 1,000 over the cost @ the time. Imagine what a up to 4 year old car with new car mileage would have done!
What is REALLY happening is the "constriction" of the diesel passenger vehicle fleet from less than 3% to 2%. It is pretty clear the various levels of regulatory agencies do not embrace diesel.
Like model gasser vs diesel numbers (on very many levels) tell the real story.
I followed an old Mercedes diesel on a back road for several miles today. They had added a placard to the bumper that said "Veggie Power". It was like following a McDonald's restaurant. You see a lot of old vehicles on the big Island. Many are more rust than painted metal. Diesel is selling for $4.35. I did see RUG for $3.98 in a remote town on the Island. I filled the Equinox for $3.65 at Shell. Not much different than CA prices.
If it is any consolation, there is snow on Mauna Kea at about the 13,000 foot level. We drove up to about 4000 foot and it was a chilly 70 degrees brrrrr. 85 in Hilo today with very little wind. The trades are coming back now and it is a very nice 70 degrees on the lanai where I am typing this. A midsized diesel quadcab or SUV would be perfect for over here.
... The latest AutoWeek has an Audi, R~8 TDI Le Mans on the cover. Not much of a test or info inside. Zero to sixty, under 4 seconds (manu.), V~12, six liter, 500 HP and large torque @ 737 pounds feet, (twice that of a gas R~8). The most significant thing is the engine passes Euro VI, not to be enforced til 2014. So all we need is public awareness and D~2 priced @ RUG levels (ha ha). Audi says there is a fifty fifty chance it will be built. The powerplant is ready for production now and will be used in their Q~7, SUV.
That TDi R8 has been out in the open for a couple of months here in Europe. A few mags have driven it, (to about 54mph IIRC, as the g/box is a quick-fix loan item from something else and not really production ready). Would be a stunning car if, when ?, they build it.
A friend has just told me that Audi have announced the TT with a 2.0 TDi and Quattro and he's hoping to change in Jan '09, (when the annual tax runs out on his A3 2.0 TDi DSG). Once the TT diesel is launched it leaves Audi with just the R8 without a production diesel option. Even the A5 gets 2.7 V6 and 3.0 V6 TDi options.
As I've said before - over here, if you don't have diesel options you lose sales. Interesting to see diesel creeping into the sports car market though. It's really polarising opinions and the petrolheads are aghast. The rest of us, the diesel converts, are delighted.
Looks like avalanches have damaged hydroelectric power lines near in Alaska. They plan to burn about 100,000 gallons of diesel per day to generate power. It makes a person wonder if the price of diesel will go up in Alaska.
... Ahhh, "public awareness", I just contributed to one of the main problems that has CARB and EPA fostered for thirty plus years. With the parameters of: NOx, CO and unburned HC, having zero reference to tailpipe volume, the public thought that it was fine if a seven thousand pound behemoth met their criteria. Now-a-days the public is starting to pay attention to total carbon output. .. ... With my post above saying that the R~8 Diesel will meet 2014 standards I should mention that it would still be a blast to drive with an engine of one third it's present capacity. A hot little 2.0 liter, turbo four, Diesel, with a six speed tranny might actually beat the tanky, six liter, V~12, on a go-cart track, and with much less carbon footprint.
With my post above saying that the R~8 Diesel will meet 2014 standards I should mention that it would still be a blast to drive with an engine of one third it's present capacity. A hot little 2.0 liter, turbo four, Diesel, with a six speed tranny might actually beat the tanky, six liter, V~12, on a go-cart track, and with much less carbon footprint.
Ah, that would be the new Audi TT 2.0 TDi/6MT/Quattro then. Has to be more chuckable than a tank - even a very fast tank.
Just for jollies - Subaru have now launched their 2.0 4-cyl Boxer diesel engine over here. 150bhp/350Nm from it's Turbo/DOHC engine should do nicely in the Legacy Tourer and Outback, which seem to be the first ones to get it. Overall economy is said to be around 40mpg overall, (I've converted to US Gallon figures 'cos I like to be helpful).
I could be persuaded to give up my Sequoia for an Outback that gets 40 MPG. I have to feel I am getting some benefit by giving up a big SUV. Of course a Land Cruiser that gets 30 MPG would be even closer to my liking.
My guess is this new diesel will really wake up (gasser) Subbie owners with both its new mileage (40 vs 25=15/40= 38% BETTER) and Torque 258 #ft of torque vs 170=88/258=34% better. Are they any hints on the $. diesel premium?
On some recent ski trips, traveling up the mountains with Subbies (Zero to 6,200 ft) I always thought gasser turbo Subbies way out powered (torqued) my diesel Jetta. They of course would pass me in the flats (I like to keep a steady mph) , but long about 4,000 ft, I would overtake and pass (same steady mph) and not even see them till the destination. With the new Turbo diesel's 258 # ft of torque, I doubt that will continue to be the case. Time for a clutch upgrade (to handle 300# ft of torque) bigger nozzles, chipping, and a higher 5th gear modification for app 235# ft and longer legs. :shades:
Comments
General Motors recently introduced a dual-mode hybrid for the Chevy Tahoe and the GMC Yukon. In addition, GM is developing a 4.5-l diesel V-8, the first light-duty V-8 clean diesel for North America. The Tahoe and Yukon will possibly have the diesel engine as an option, as well. This raises some interesting questions.
How do these two quite different power trains fit into GM's future?
We have an energy and propulsion strategy at General Motors and it's all centered around a path that eventually removes the vehicle from the energy and environmental debate. The intention is to get increasingly better fuel economy and reduce the emissions that are emitted by our power trains. We have a road map that gets us moving down that path that goes through the near term, the midterm and then eventually the long term.
The diesel engine is a critical part of that propulsion strategy. It is important to put it in context, though, because there is not a single 'silver bullet.' You might think of it that there is silver buck shot and it depends really on what your specific application is — what kind of a vehicle consumer/buyer you are and how you use the vehicle that best addresses what power train is the best option for you.
We have been watching a slew of (diesel) changes. Some that come to mind: tightening rules, loose rules, VW delays of new product due to further durability testing, people really starting to "GET" diesels. Honda going from a diesel Civic to Accord platform diesel to....Acura...., etc. Less than 3% of the passenger diesel fleet to 2%.... :lemon: :shades: Perhaps it is all fiction!?
I should say on EBAY that you can actually get better MPG with the tdi BADGE!!!
On another note, EIA has an interesting comparison between cost of gasoline and diesel at
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
Diesel Gasoline
Crude oil 63% 69%
Refining 18% 8%
Distribution 5% 10%
Taxes 14% 13%
Price $3.38 $3.03
It is surprising that diesel costs a lot more to refine vs. gasoline even when you consider that it is ULSD.
3.38 x 0.18 = $0.61
3.03 x 0.08 = $0.24
Diesel cost to refine per barrel $25.62
Gasoline cost to refine per barrel $10.08
From my point of view the question of Diesel vs Gasoline came down, at least in part, to "Do I want to use less fuel long term ?". Yes I do, so I switched to diesel about 4 years ago - but it helps that we have the choice of most makes/models in either fuel.
U.K. fuel prices are currently averaging as follows : Gasoline = $8.13 and Diesel = $8.81 per US Gallon equiv. Even at that delta it still makes sense to run Diesel on purely economic grounds and also on the "Use less" premise. Win win. I think choosing your fuel purely on a "today's cost to run" is one of those quests that will run forever. Choosing your fuel on a "Use less long term" basis makes it much easier to choose Diesel.................if you can choose a car you want with a Diesel engine.
So for example refinery costs are per gal .6084 cents D2 vs .24.24 cents RUG. (=.366 per gal more) What goes unsaid: passenger vehicle fleet: 98% RUG to PUG vs D2. @ 2 % .
So for example with out a doubt, they recover MORE than their costs even with the ratio mismatch in the gal price difference between 3.38 and 3.03 per gal (=.35 cents per gal) . They also get huge subsidies and tax credits etc, etc.
Another is that D2 can be refined from light sweet crude and more importantly OTHER THAN light sweet crude @ 30-40% discount!!!!! LSC is what almost EVERYBODY refers to the price of a barrel of oil. Now gasoline CAN be refined from other than light sweet crude but not unexpectedly the refinery costs are FAR higher.
So in the overall picture of things, if one set of costs is 10% higher (refinery), but it is offset by 30-40% cheaper costs crude oil) of goods, am I making more or less money? (not even factoring in here the tax subsidies, write offs, tax credits)
Again it would be interesting to see what Al Torque's example would be in the UK equivalent of EIA.gov. aka D2 passenger vehicle fleet @ 55% and growing.
The marketing part actually comes under the Marketing and Distribution. I left out the word marketing just to make the line a bit shorter. It is probably best to go to the actual web site and see for yourself.
I would suggest that the application ratio would be total European diesel vehicles versus total U.S. diesel vehicles - not just cars. The demand would be based on all vehicles (trucks, cars, RVs...) and heating oil demand. The 55:2 ratio would be different if all diesels are added in.
To be honest, I am not sure what the deal is with the EIA numbers. They do seem a bit off. As an example
Gas crude costs $2.09 = $3.03 x 0.69
Diesel crude costs $2.13 = $3.38 x 0.63
How can the crude costs be different? A percent of the oil gets turned into diesel and a percent gets turned into gasoline in a typical refinery. Both should have the same cost if they are being made from the same barrel of oil. I suppose they could be using some "ancient" formula that no longer matches the current situation.
Here is the link:
http://www.auto123.com/en/news/car-news/no-future-for-diesel?artid=96390
The line that got me was:
"...So, do you see someone actually paying 20 percent more to purchase a diesel-powered vehicle and 20 percent more to fill up the tank... only to wind up with a 20-percent lower fuel consumption?..."
$11,000 more for a Duramax diesel truck, Ouch!!!! And this is a guy with access to the numbers. He is also a key decision maker at GM. We should not expect too many diesel cars coming out of GM anytime soon.
In another year or two all this should clear up and we will have some real numbers to work with regarding the new diesel vehicles. In the mean time the fur is flying. I am thinking of going with one of those new air cars.
So starving the worlds population is the better alternative?
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/04/14/world.food.crisis/index.html
CNN) -- Riots from Haiti to Bangladesh to Egypt over the soaring costs of basic foods have brought the issue to a boiling point and catapulted it to the forefront of the world's attention, the head of an agency focused on global development said Monday.
"This is the world's big story," said Jeffrey Sachs, director of Columbia University's Earth Institute.
"The finance ministers were in shock, almost in panic this weekend," he said on CNN's "American Morning," in a reference to top economic officials who gathered in Washington. "There are riots all over the world in the poor countries ... and, of course, our own poor are feeling it in the United States."
World Bank President Robert Zoellick has said the surging costs could mean "seven lost years" in the fight against worldwide poverty.
"While many are worrying about filling their gas tanks, many others around the world are struggling to fill their stomachs, and it is getting more and more difficult every day," Zoellick said late last week in a speech opening meetings with finance ministers.
Actually it has been a hidden in plain sight secret for a very long time. The fact of the matter (Gagrice might want to chime in here) is that not all "crude oil is= to or same as "crude oil". Light sweet crude refines to RUG to PUG far more efficiently and hence "costs less" than other than light sweet crude.
On the other hand, or should we say hand in glove with that, "other than light sweet crude" converts far more readily (other things also: but on topic) to D2.
The White House announced Monday evening that an estimated $200 million in emergency food aid would be made available through the U.S. Agency for International Development."...
Funny how the USA gets stuck with 40% of the total of the "emergency fund" with places like China, Russia, Middle East, London, (hope I did not leave any body elses fav cash generating economy) absolutely and totally FLUSH with WORLD money's.
..."numerous statistical analyses have demonstrated that the price of oil -- not corn prices or ethanol production -- has the greatest impact on consumer food prices because it is integral to virtually every phase of food production, from processing to packaging to transportation."...
So the answer is use MORE of it; not less !?
(Diesel gets 20-40% better fuel mileage on like model cars example diesel Jetta gets 49 mpg vs gasser Jetta 2.0/1.8T gets 29 mpg? ) Point being 98% of US Passenger Vehicle fleet is RUG to PUG with 2% being diesel?
Seems like the new "3rd world look" is offensive to the French.
"France may outlaw inciting thinness"
By DEVORAH LAUTER, Associated Press Writer
Funny when ART mirrors REALITY!?
Or is the "let em eat cake" policy still around?
..."if a young girl is skinny or not skinny," he said. "That doesn't exist in the world, and it will certainly not exist in France.""...
link title
Again this plugs into the prior posts about algae and its adaptive use for bio diesel. Not that some or most will switch to eating algae products, but truthly on a multitude of levels, hydroponic growth is way more efficient and effective than land growth. So FOOD products can be added if the demand should pick up. It goes without saying there is/has been/will continue to be OIL demand.
Silly Bob. I guess he thinks that we the American public just don't know that all GM brands in Europe sell diesels with no premium or far less than 20%.
Lutz has always worked hard to push diesel aside in the US market.
He might find that his position is not tenable when the competition starts to market F-150's that get 25 mpg.
State Diff. Percent
Alaska $0.52 14.2%
Alabama $0.72 22.0%
Arkansas $0.74 22.6%
Arizona $0.72 21.6%
California $0.56 14.6%
Colorado $0.71 21.2%
Connecticut $0.89 25.6%
D. C. $0.72 20.9%
Delaware $0.93 28.3%
Florida $0.69 20.3%
Georgia $0.72 21.5%
Hawaii $0.55 14.7%
Iowa $0.73 22.0%
Idaho $0.82 24.5%
Illinois $0.69 19.8%
Indiana $0.70 20.5%
Kansas $0.79 24.0%
Kentucky $0.64 18.9%
Louisiana $0.70 21.3%
Massachusetts $1.03 31.9%
Maryland $0.82 24.6%
Maine $0.87 26.0%
Michigan $0.74 21.3%
Minnesota $0.79 24.4%
Missouri $0.74 22.8%
Mississippi $0.68 20.8%
Montana $0.75 22.1%
North Carolina $0.71 21.1%
North Dakota $0.70 20.8%
Nebraska $0.67 20.0%
New Hampshire $0.97 30.3%
New Jersey $1.02 32.5%
New Mexico $0.72 21.4%
Nevada $0.58 16.5%
New York $0.95 27.3%
Ohio $0.78 23.4%
Oklahoma $0.69 21.2%
Oregon $0.71 20.4%
Pennsylvania $0.99 29.6%
Rhode Island $1.01 30.9%
South Carolina $0.75 23.3%
South Dakota $0.67 20.0%
Tennessee $0.73 22.5%
Texas $0.71 21.6%
Utah $0.80 24.0%
Virginia $0.74 22.4%
Vermont $0.97 28.9%
Washington $0.76 21.2%
Wisconsin $0.70 20.5%
West Virginia $0.78 22.5%
Wyoming $0.75 22.9%
Average $0.76 22.7%
Based AAA numbers from 4/15/08
I am still puzzled by the high cost of diesel in NY ($4.44) and New England. The heating season is over, the prices should be coming down.
You just hit on why the truckers are angry.
kcram - Pickups Host
Yeah, they are taking it on the chin. This is one of the reasons I would not buy a diesel now. I would prefer not to be "angry" each time I went to fill-up with more expensive diesel. I know a few people that were very happy with their diesel trucks when the price of diesel was less and they were getting the extra 20 to 40% better mpg. I hear a lot more complaining now. Some are trying to get use to the idea of it costing $100 for a fill. The big rigs are pushing $1,000...ouch!
I really hope that no one ever perfects an engine that runs on water , as the cost of water would go up to 5 or 6 bucks a gallon. I really do have some concerns that if plug electrics ever become popular electricity rates will skyrocket.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
A case in point on why D2 products REALLY did not take off!!
I think you probably would agree those reasons prevail today!? :lemon:
Diesel passenger vehicle fleet population has slipped from under 3% to 2% !!!??
In the context of the (my) corner store prices of $3.73 RUG $3.93 PUG $ 4.35 D2
like model
03 VW Jetta 2.0 @29 mpg =.1286206 cents (per mile driven)
03 VW Jetta 1.8 T @29 mpg =.1355172 cents
03 VW Jetta 1.9 TDI @49 mpg = .0887755 cents
Pre Katrina (2 weeks to 1 day before, in a suburb of New Orleans) D2 was 2.87 per gal. :shades:
100,000 miles/29,29 , 49 mpg (VW Jetta 2.0 RUG, 1.8T PUG, 1.9 TDI D2),
Fill average between 10-12 gals per visit. (14.5 gal tank capacity 2003 VW Jetta)
3,449 gals, 3,449 gals, 2,041 gals
345 to 288 visits , 345 to 288 visits, 204 to 170 visits.
2 sides of the deal: big oil/YOU.
Would you rather see more or less visits?
Would you rather see more or less fuel?
My personal bias? I like the 700 miles RANGE. Most times, I can make a round trip and fuel at the place offering the cheapest D2. On a recent trip, that meant 3 states and one foreign country. :shades:
"So why is diesel suddenly so expensive just when the country needs it badly? That's a question that Congress should be asking oil executives next time it has them lined up for a grilling."
Since when has any of the dog and pony shows congress puts on done anything besides waste good air time. People would be better off watching Sponge Bob Square Pants.
We know at least a couple of good reasons why diesel is expensive. First, Europe is using a lot for their cars and sending the excess gasoline from their refiners to the U.S. (high diesel demand increases the price, while excessive supply of gasoline lowers gasoline prices) Second, ULSD is more expensive to produce. Third, the demand is there. We also know that each refinery has a monopoly of sorts in their specific area. They can charge whatever the traffic will bear. Some people have trouble with this concept called capitalism, but that is the way it works. Cheap fuel is not a birthright.
He also makes the comment: "If auto companies were making giant profits like the oil industry and there was sufficient consumer demand for vehicles, they would build new plants in a hurry, even though factories (like oil refineries) cost billions of dollars." No, they would not build plants in a hurry. A smart business looks at the long term ROI.
He is also ignoring the fact that refineries have done hundreds of expansions over the years and we may actually see a world wide glut of refineries in the future. There are some major 300,000+ barrel a day refineries coming on line in 2010 to 2013 in the Middle East and other places. The little and older 50,000 to 100,000 bpd refineries in the US may have trouble competing. They could go out of business. And yeah, not only will the Middle East countries make lots of money off the oil, they will also get to make money refining the oil into diesel and gasoline.
When... 4/20/2007 RUG was... "According to the American Automobile Association (AAA), gas is an average $2.86 per gallon (3.785 liters) for regular unleaded in the United States"...
The price of RUG was ..."and Venezuela at $0.19 a gallon."...
Chavez has at least one capitalist idea correct.
link title
..."Taurisano pays the equivalent of $1.50 to fill his Hummer's tank."...
..."Critics of Chávez, and the president himself, agree that the subsidy is a threat to his project to transform Venezuela into a socialist society, "...
link title
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/mercedes-benz-i.html
The downside for the European car makers like Mercedes is that the Euro/dollar situation has really cut into their profits. A few years back when they could sell a Benz for $60,000 they would get 60,000 Euros. Now it is about $1.60 to one Euro. At current exchange rates the $60,000 would only net them about 37,500 Euros.
They also had an interesting story on a diesel like engine that uses ethanol.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2008/04/scania-extendin.html#more
and
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/03/scania_touts_et.html
So, do we call the new engine an Ethiesel or a Diethanol ?
According to Wiki (the all knowing and all seeing
This past weekend, I had the oppotunity to (literally) see the guts of a TDI converted to run on WVO (aka veggie oil- want fries with that?), during a clutch/flywheel upgrade. While D2 is at 4-4.35, veggie oil was at $1.75.
Don't worry, they make it up in the U.K. the C-class ranges from about GBP20k for the C180 Coupe to over GBP50k for the C55 AMG Auto estate....in standard trim before any options. With the GBP hovering around the USD2 mark they look rather expensive. BMW and Audi are no cheaper. The Smart ForTwo runs from circa GBP7k for the 1.0 Pure to around GBP11k for the 1.0 Passion Cabrio.
Had they "flooded the lots" with TDIs, they would have had to start discounting them.
It's like the hybrids in the early years - low supply generates high demand and buzz.
Unfortunately hypothetical, as they were REGULATED in the %. If they were able to have brought more-say 2x, they would not have had any problems- swag on my part, but perhaps they would have lost less money! I tell you what, at the time I was tempted to buy more than one, and looking back, it was a mistake not to have. Up until 4/5th year the car with much more mileage could have fetched 1,000 over the cost @ the time. Imagine what a up to 4 year old car with new car mileage would have done!
What is REALLY happening is the "constriction" of the diesel passenger vehicle fleet from less than 3% to 2%. It is pretty clear the various levels of regulatory agencies do not embrace diesel.
Like model gasser vs diesel numbers (on very many levels) tell the real story.
Just to stay on topic, tomorrow we get 11,000 diesel, I’ll check the paper work and let you know if it’s ULSD.
So at least this company is purchasing ULSD marine diesel on a regular basis.
And for those in Warmer climates,
The latest measurable snow fall at SeaTac was 4/17/1972. We might beat it this weekend.
A friend has just told me that Audi have announced the TT with a 2.0 TDi and Quattro and he's hoping to change in Jan '09, (when the annual tax runs out on his A3 2.0 TDi DSG). Once the TT diesel is launched it leaves Audi with just the R8 without a production diesel option. Even the A5 gets 2.7 V6 and 3.0 V6 TDi options.
As I've said before - over here, if you don't have diesel options you lose sales. Interesting to see diesel creeping into the sports car market though. It's really polarising opinions and the petrolheads are aghast. The rest of us, the diesel converts, are delighted.
Let's see, 24K Canadian, that would be about $2 million U.S.dollars.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/thenews/2008/04/17/volkswagen-canada-announces-pri- ce-of-2009-jetta-tdi.htm
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BC, Vancouver Boundary Rd & Marine Way 1.2680 *3.785411 liters per gal= 4.776 per US gal (CAD 4..80)
US corner store 4.29 per gal.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/04/18/alaska-avalanche.html
..
... With my post above saying that the R~8 Diesel will meet 2014 standards I should mention that it would still be a blast to drive with an engine of one third it's present capacity. A hot little 2.0 liter, turbo four, Diesel, with a six speed tranny might actually beat the tanky, six liter, V~12, on a go-cart track, and with much less carbon footprint.
Ah, that would be the new Audi TT 2.0 TDi/6MT/Quattro then. Has to be more chuckable than a tank - even a very fast tank.
Just for jollies - Subaru have now launched their 2.0 4-cyl Boxer diesel engine over here. 150bhp/350Nm from it's Turbo/DOHC engine should do nicely in the Legacy Tourer and Outback, which seem to be the first ones to get it. Overall economy is said to be around 40mpg overall, (I've converted to US Gallon figures 'cos I like to be helpful).
On some recent ski trips, traveling up the mountains with Subbies (Zero to 6,200 ft) I always thought gasser turbo Subbies way out powered (torqued) my diesel Jetta. They of course would pass me in the flats (I like to keep a steady mph) , but long about 4,000 ft, I would overtake and pass (same steady mph) and not even see them till the destination. With the new Turbo diesel's 258 # ft of torque, I doubt that will continue to be the case. Time for a clutch upgrade (to handle 300# ft of torque) bigger nozzles, chipping, and a higher 5th gear modification for app 235# ft and longer legs. :shades: