Indeed the (2004) Toyota Prius EPA mileage bru ha ha made the EPA do what I consider a knee jerk reaction , which forced it to subsequently change the infinitely repeatable and decades old EPA mileage test procedures. Now, it is almost a rubber ruler type of measurement. It would seem that Toyota put POLITICAL pressure on (whomever) to make the EPA change a standard that really did not need changing.
The truth is the new EPA testing did NOT change my already real world DIESEL 50 mpg. It did however change the 60/50 Prius rating to (2008) "Automatic: : 48 mpg / 45 mpg ", which in my .02 cent opinion was what it should have been all along and with NO changes to the EPA testing procedures.
Instead of saying/implying it was the TEST'S fault, Toyota should have gotten folks to sign releases saying they understood mpg would not approach 60/50 mpg UNLESS they RADICALLY changed their driving behavior, environment, etc, etc. At least that was very apparent to me when I did a 24 hour test drive. While I have never driven the Prius more autobahn like, I am sure it would have problems meeting the mid 40's.
If I drove the (2003) TDI more autobahn like, I could easily get its 42/49 epa ratings. . If I drove the speed limit (65 mpg) 55-65 mpg is/was a can do easy. My gosh, keeping it at 75 mph can clock 59 mpg.
Truly my biggest challenge is fighting road hypnosis @ speeds of 60-65 mph where we are talking an easy 62 mpg.
It's not merely "my opinion" that the Prius in 2004 was one of the cleanest, if in fact not the cleanest, passenger car in the world. It was. It might not be TODAY, but it WAS in 2004.
You want to Google the green awards it won that year? It will take a while.
This was never setup by ME to be a "hybrid versus diesel" thing at all. Some people are trying to make it that.
P.S. Actually, the cleanest combustion engine in the world belongs to the Honda Civic GX. 2004 Prius was the cleanest LIQUID GASOLINE burner.
But to hear the gospel according to larsb, if competition was opened up and held again (with all players present this time), the Prius would still take top honors. Yes, I know you didn;t exactly say that (at least not here and not in the last 50 or so posts), but your extreme pro hybrid bias is well known and it sure seems as that's exactly what you were implying. So, to that I say, "your opinion".
No, I did not get it backwards. I agree that diesel is only about 2% of the fleet (cars). I also agree that diesels get much better mileage.
"Nobody, especially diesel users/advocates have even remotely claim/s/ed diesel WAS/can be PERFECT."
You may not think so but that is certainly the perspective of others. Look at what happens when someone posts an article on emissions.
You mentioned the TDI many times and I agree that MPG is excellent and that the engine is built for the long haul. But as far as the engine going 500,000, that fact is completely irrelevant for me and I suspect for many other car owners. It has taken me 6 years to put 50,000 miles on my car. To reach 500,000 miles with a brand new TDI, it just will not happen. I will wear out long before the engine will. I also have no desire to keep a car that long.
The second issue with the VW cars is that their reliability is less than other makes. So while the engine will last forever the rest of the car will give you fits. Page 21 of the 4/08 issue of CR shows the VW has 175 problems per car after 10 years. VW cannot even beat the Koreans. How long has VW been making cars? For Hyundai to step in after just two decades or so and beat an ancient car maker like VW is rather interesting.
"Again what is the overwhelming position of the so called "religious" folks you are talking about? "
Just an observation. Maybe I could start a RUG or PUG in the News topic.
Ending on a diesel note, I see that diesel has slipped in price by a few tenths of a cent in NY and nationally. Not much of a change but maybe it will accelerate a bit as the weeks wear on. I do have an interest in how high diesel prices are because I like the rest of us pay for higher transportation costs. $4 a gallon diesel is doing nasty things to truckers. Spring planting is coming and farmers will feel the heat. Corn and wheat prices may be high but the inputs like diesel, seed and fertilizer are also high.
My intent was to say that in 2004, the Prius was indeed the cleanest car in the world, other than the Civic GX.
That is not an opinion, not "gospel according to larsb" at all. It's a fact. Look it up if you have doubts. It was 4 years ago - the facts are now part of the world's historical record.
And any "greenest" contest in today's world which contains the current Prius will see the Prius scoring highly, if not the top spot.
Again: not my opinion, but fact.
But remember: these contests/awards are mostly subjective votes ANYWAY. I don't think it would be possible to actually measure and compare cleanliness of vehicles down to the milligram of every measurable pollutant and come out with a definitive, scientifically proven Number One.
The carmakers who spend extra R&D money making "clean green cars" know what they are doing.
P.S. For a good update on clean car technology for 2008, including trends and current data, see this page:
This year, the natural gas-powered Honda Civic GX claims the title as the greenest vehicle for the fifth year running. Toyota's hybrid-electric Prius, which places second, is the year's top-scoring gasoline vehicle, while Honda's Civic Hybrid ranks a close third. Rounding out the top five are the recently released Smart Fortwo Convertible and Coupe and Toyota Yaris. In total, the Greenest Vehicles list contains one natural gas, four hybrid-electric, and seven conventional gasoline vehicles, a mix of technologies that demonstrates some of the avenues automakers have taken in developing greener vehicles. Whether using hybrid gasoline-electric designs, compressed natural gas, or simply clean and efficient conventional gasoline designs, automakers have visibly demonstrated their ability to engineer with the environment in mind.
Being "clean" isn't the only requirement for being "green", and depending upon which metrics you want to focus on, the new European Diesels are cleaner in many ways than all but the Civic GX. That said, the GX doesn't qualify for the World Green Car of the Year simply because it uses a boutique fuel (as far as cars are concerned), and as such, while the GX is interesting, it is also irrelevant.
But remember: these contests/awards are mostly subjective votes ANYWAY.
If that is the case. Why do you consider them Facts only when they agree with your opinion? We are just one country in the World. When other countries have "Green Car" awards they have a lot more to choose from. For you emissions is the most important issue. You manage to discount the emissions you consider unimportant and emphasize the ones you consider bad.
For my way of thinking the EU is much more advanced in their method of doing emissions and fuel economy. ALL means of vehicle motivation carry some negatives. If the USA was progressive instead of regressive we would be saving as much fuel as the EU. We are not and are now suffering the consequences.
All these so called studies being brought to the diesel board to try and lessen the value as a fuel are of little value. Most are old or in the case of sticking 10 idiots in a room with diesel exhaust, it is plain stupid.
Bring us some data on current diesel cars using ULSD that is now readily available in the US. Show comparisons between like vehicles using both gas and diesel. I want to see all the emissions being spewed out by both. Not these cherry picked studies by those with a definite anti-diesel agenda.
There is a difference between the exhaust of a semi-truck and a Smart TwoFor diesel. Most of the biased studies posted do not differentiate.
Yes the E350 gasser uses 27% more fossil fuel and dumps 1.5 tons more CO2 per year.
As the emissions is weighted for certain elements how is that portion relevant. If CO or HC were more important to the EPA than PM the diesel would be rated higher. The E320 CDI has been accepted by CARB. If you consider cars using 30% more fossil fuel giving the same service a good deal, that is your opinion. I would just as soon use less fuel.
....""Nobody, especially diesel users/advocates have even remotely claim/s/ed diesel WAS/can be PERFECT."
You may not think so but that is certainly the perspective of others. Look at what happens when someone posts an article on emissions. "...
Well, using your logic, then by default you are in effect claiming RUG to PUG is the perfect fuel!!?? ? YES or NO?
I did post about how perception can trump the real facts. That is why I do post the facts, aka numbers.
When someone post about diesel emissions, questions were asked. I would agree you probably didn't like the questions or the answers you would give, if you truly responded.
But on the other hand, I am ok with answers like: don't confuse me with the facts, I already have my mind made up.
In addition, just as long as diesel models are expanded, hey you are entitled to your opinion.You don't like diesels, don't buy them. Pretty simple I think and you have the FREEDOM to or not to. The reason for the discourse is passenger diesels are a minority position @ three percent and as I have updated, has shrunk to 2%.of the passenger vehicle fleet. The funny part is D2 is infinitely more available than RUG to PUG. If more truckers leave the business, oxyomoronically and sadly, MORE D2 will be available and at cheaper prices!!!!!
..."I do have an interest in how high diesel prices are because I like the rest of us pay for higher transportation costs. $4 a gallon diesel is doing nasty things to truckers. Spring planting is coming and farmers will feel the heat. Corn and wheat prices may be high but the inputs like diesel, seed and fertilizer are also high. "...
I would agree.
Not to beat the context issue to death but if truckers were using RUG to PUG and getting 30% less mileage per gal @ 3.61 per gal, would that be better or worse?
( 6 mpg diesel/4= .67 cents per gal @ 30% less=-1.8 mpg=4.2 mpg/3.61=.86 per gal
That is truly an almost total mis characterization.
It bears noting that American light truck diesels 2,250,2500, and 3.35, 3500 vehicles are all 2008 compliant. They haven't missed a lick for literally decades.
A couple of years ago, there were supposed to be SEVERAL clean diesel cars available to US buyers by 2008.
Now, we have one.
Did the carmakers not know all this time that diesel specs were going to require more stringent emission controls? OF COURSE THEY KNEW - it's their job to know.
Again another intentional mischaracterization. American oem diesel sales have continued totally unabated all 50 states, literally for decades.
New car foreign diesels sales were banned in CA starting in model year 2005, but sold in the other 45/49 states. So there are the cars.
And know they did!!!! Why the interruption? First off, production limits. 2nd. Pretty easy, moving targets. When the targets stopped moving R& D , development to market and longevity testing time frames.
"cars" is a misnomer. One car. Only one. Priced out of "everyman's" range.
and:
Please note that light-duty diesel models are not available for sale in California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont.
..."Here is a list of the vehicles (from a pro-diesel website) available for sale in the USA this year, right now:
Cars/Trucks for sale today in the USA as a diesel
"cars" is a misnomer. One car. Only one. Priced out of "everyman's" range.
and:
Please note that light-duty diesel models are not available for sale in California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont.
Kinda rules out a lot of buyers. "...
Your own link ( posted web site )shows 13 diesel models for 2008 passenger diesels.
All meet the passenger vehicle fleet moniker. Could not be sold as such if it didn't.?Another intentional mis characterization? We appreciate you stating your bias, but these types of elitest attitudes that makes diesels "dear" in the first place.
Please do note an American made diesel can be purchased in any state. i.e. 50 states.
Pretty interesting dynamics. First you applauded the anti diesel forces for limiting diesels and in effect getting the diesel populations down from 3% to 2%; then you slam the oems who want to offer diesels, for not having a greater population. !!!!!
But really the Toyota Prius has been out for a number of years and has NEVER been priced for Joe everyman/woman, even as they have as a goal to lower the costs.
But really to put this in context I was surprised to find that the average age of a new Corolla/Civic owner was 50's to 60's!!!! So it seems that even everymans best of breed "ECONOMY" options are not affordable to the majority of folks without 30-40 years of time on the work force. So for example at the time the 2004 Prius was 25k and the 2004 Civic was 12.6k.
ruking1 says, "Your own link ( posted web site )shows 13 diesel models for 2008 passenger diesels."
Yep. and ONE passenger car. That was my point. Where are the passenger cars we have been promised for the last few years?
ruking1 says, "But really the Toyota Prius has been out for a number of years and has NEVER been priced for Joe everyman/woman, even as they have as a goal to lower the costs. "
Uh-Uh. MSRP of Prius 1 was $19,995. Current Prius MSRP is $21,100.
Almost all Priuses go out the dealer door today at less than the "average price paid" for a new car in the USA, which is around $28,000.
I have NEVER "applauded" anti-diesel forces for limiting diesels, in part because they have never done that. The diesel exhaust itself is it's own worst enemy, and that is what limits the diesel cars.
All the automakers need to do is provide adequate filtering and the cars meet the regs.
And where is my 5-passenger diesel/hybrid sedan? That's all I want to see.
If a good electric car beats the diesel/hybrid sedan to the US market, that would be a crying shame.
"Uh-Uh. MSRP of Prius 1 was $19,995. Current Prius MSRP is $21,100.
So is 21,100 greater or lesser than 12,600 ? (the attending explanation does not change)
"The diesel exhaust itself is it's own worst enemy, and that is what limits the diesel cars."
"All the automakers need to do is provide adequate filtering and the cars meet the regs."
The answer to both: All the diesels sold during the periods mentioned met ALL applicable emissions laws. Indeed CA would have registered that year's diesel from another state with 7500 miles.
..."And where is my 5-passenger diesel/hybrid sedan? That's all I want to see."...
I do not know where is it? Sort of like wanting a sub 13k Prius?
..."If a good electric car beats the diesel/hybrid sedan to the US market, that would be a crying shame. "...
Sorry, stop crying, been there, done that already. approximately 12 years ago I was involved in getting an all electric Ford Ranger (28,000 price tag) for our municipality. (the competition was a Toyota RAV IV)
I have no idea why you introduced the price of a base Civic into the discussion - nothing we talked about before or after had any bearing on that vehicle or it's price.
If the diesels in the applicable period met all regs, then they would currently be for sale in all states, and we would have more than one clean diesel passenger vehicle for sale in the USA right now.
Actually I stated the pretty simple reason, there are of course many more. The easy 2004 Prius/Civic comparison was 25k WAS the "STRIPPED" Prius version. The other is most folks do most of their mileage commuting. So if all you need is a commute car (AFFORDABILITY?) then really the fuel cost is nothing compared to the other items of ownership (per mile driven) Civic really meets the commute economy metric. Indeed one could have gotten 2 Civics for one Prius @ that year. We got one so by default that leaves 12,000 dollars for fuel@ 3.60 per gal=3,333.* 39 mpg= 130,000 miles of commuting. @ 12-15k average that is 8.67 to 10.8 years of commuting, for the the purchase price of a Prius!!???
... I disagree with your statement that the air would be unbreathable in Phoenix. If the 100 percent Diesel fleet had particulate traps I believe the air would be better than a gas fleet, and with significantly less carbon output, and about thirty percent less fuel being unloaded into the hundreds of service stations.
I dont think he would appreciate these hypothetical projections. :shades: Burning 30% more is better!! More carbon is better also. They say it is not but that is NOT what they actually do.
I believe the air would be better than a gas fleet
Don't confuse larsb with facts. His mind is made up. Hybrids are his life. He has money to burn and believes we all want to waste money on every new flaky technology that comes to market. One day when his warranty is up if has not already bought a third hybrid, he will be posting about how he was gouged owning that overly complex car. I am sure he is right that after the regulators get done with the diesels they will be nearly as complex and trouble prone as the hybrids. I am about to just buy me a 3/4 ton diesel truck that does not have to be smogged. Strip all the crap that causes problems with them running well and call it my last vehicle. It will get better mileage than this gas guzzling Toyota I am driving.
Gary, that's very insulting, and misleading to people who don't know me.
I never ignore facts. I never "get confused" by facts.
I have repeatedly said, and this is a FACT not my opinion, that ALL modern clean diesel and hybrid cars are very complex. The clean diesel technology on the BluTec cars alone is very, very complex !! I read a 15-page description of the whole system one time, and it's not exactly your 1975 Ford Truck my friend.
Cars in 2008 are complex. That's life.
The only thing "my mind is made up about" is that Hybrids save fuel, and so do clean diesels. That's why I want a clean diesel hybrid sedan in my driveway.
..."Gary, that's very insulting, and misleading to people who don't know me."...
Might be, might be not. We can only "know you" on this thread by what you write. In a sense any of us are connecting the dots. You are the one providing the dots.
You could be a PH D in world wide emissions technology and policy, for all we REALLY know, writing in the provocateur style as a foil to the cap of your profession: or anything in between. So any to all of us are responding at any to all levels to what you are writing at whatever level you are writing. I know a lot of Ivy Leaque educated folks who write in the email format like they are hoping to get their high school ged in another 6 years of full time study, after they didnt really get the first 4 years. .
..."Cars in 2008 are complex. That's life."...
Your quote conveys no real information. We can of course draw conclusions; that you feel victimized by technology being complex to that is a can do easy..
But really when it comes to automobiles, I really do not have any problems a big work shop filled with 50,000 to 100,000 worth of tools, computers, equipment, and access to the parts logistics can not solve!!!
My statement that "cars are complex" was not meant to relay "real information" to anyone about anything except to let Gary know AGAIN that his attack of hybrids because of their complexity is a waste of time, because ALL modern hybrids and clean diesel cars are complex.
Well it gets back to what he was saying, "Complex", deal with it by throwing money at the problem. He said it, So have you. I have said it. Indeed I have illustrated it with the $bux comparison of 25k for Prius-12.6k for Civic. So when you blow it off multiple attempts to clarify, like you don't have a clue to what we are saying etc etc, certain conclusions can be/are drawn.
Cut to the chase? SOS DD.
PC? It was put in context. You know that. You even know why diesels, normal cars and hybrids are cited in the diesel thread. I can repeat it as many times as you profess not know that, reread that, or ignore that. So what would be the purpose of that?
Again, I'm not sure why a 12.6K Civic was even brought into the discussion. It's neither diesel nor hybrid, and has no bearing on anything we have discussed.
The Civic at 12.6K is about 16K less than the average price of a new car. That's the only thing that can be said about it that has any bearing on this discussion.
The clean diesel technology on the BluTec cars alone is very, very complex
I believe that is what I said. If you are so pro diesel. Would you buy a diesel only car if it was equal to or better mileage than your current hybrid? The Jetta wagon TDI is due out in a few months for all 50 states. It will I am sure get better mileage than the TCH.
True, they are both complex, however, to try and equate the two as being similarly complex is disenginous to say the least. If you take a regular old 2008 CIvic and use it as a base for a "complexity scale", and give it a score of "1" (i.e. low complexity), then the complexity of the emissions system of the new 2009 VW Jetta TDI would probably come in somewhere between 3 and 5, meanwhile the Prius would probably rank in there at an easy 9 or 10 (on a scale of 1-10).
Yes, all of these cars are complex, but the complexity is extremely relative.
No on the Jetta Wagon TDI. But not because it's a diesel. Until I can drive one, I would consider it too small for my needs. If I had wanted "small and max MPG" I would have kept my HCH.
The closest I would come to a "diesel only" might be a Passat TDI wagon. It's larger, and would still likely beat my TCH on mileage. I'd like to drive one.
I would have to figure cost per mile and figure in the cost of diesel fuel also.
The only vehicles I would SERIOUSLY consider replacing my TCH with right now would be:
1. A diesel/hybrid 5-passenger sedan with comparable interior size and MPG around 60 combined (easily done with a diesel/hybrid) 2. A 5-passenger electric car with A/C and range of at least 40 miles.
Until one of those comes out (or unless the Passat TDI wagon could woo/wow me) then I will keep my TCH for now.
I was not comparing or evaluating levels of complexity.
Just pointing out to Gary (it's been an ongoing theme between us ever since his first post saying "hybrids are overly complex") that most high-technology vehicles today are complex, and that criticizing said complexity is just a waste of time.
Another, might be you wake up in a brand new world every day. (or every post) You might be a handle for 50 folks in 100 different locations, who just use your name for laughs.
..."Until one of those comes out (or unless the Passat TDI wagon could woo/wow me) then I will keep my TCH for now. "...
If I may put in my .02 cents, KEEP your TCH. I have always been curious about the reliability and durability of the hybrid batteries (TCH in your case) @ 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 miles and beyond.
My take and or swag is it is a slam dunk no brainer to 100,000, 200,000 miles, BUT... I would NOT want to put words in a TCH owners mouth.
To make it applicable to diesels, the same is true. I am doing the normal tasks necessary (actually less than gassers) to see the TDI to (already approaching 105,000 miles- ZERO defects) 200,000, 300,000, 400,000, 500,000 miles and beyond.
My sense as of this period; 200,000 miles for the TDI is a slam dunk, no-brainer. It still amazes me, the mpg is 48-52 mpg. Depending on the procedures I want to follow, the fuel consumption range is between 44- 70 mpg. I am still on the "crappy"(worst of three oem choices) oem tires (@105,000 miles). The alignment is from new car delivery. I am doing a conservative 25,000 miles OCI's. :shades:
... Maybe Larsb is subjected to all those medical reports cropping up in Google news that have almost zero consideration of particulate traps. I only post this because it appears that Larsb wants to drop out of his hypothetical Phoenix statement.
The inconvenient truth about; for example, USLD and particulate traps is each by themselves is a relatively NEW product. To do a longitudinal study on each would take (literally) YEARS. Who knows whether each will yield the so called preselected "desired" conclusion. (aka fraud)
To link these two products by scientific experiment, again would take YEARS after that. Again can we come to another preselected "desired" conclusion? (aka fraud)? Hysteria works best when the crisis drums are in rapid staccato, accented by "end of the world" syncopation. A boring longitudinal study....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... sorry I am awake now,... good for way in the future SLOW news days.
But then again the Myans predicted the end times happening in 2012. :lemon: :sick: The bad news? They are extinct!? The good news? They just might be WRONG! :shades:
"I was not comparing or evaluating levels of complexity. "
Well maybe that wasn't what you were intending to suggest, however, anybody who is unfamiliar with these two cars would almost assuredly translate your words to mean Jetta TDI = Prius (from the perspective of complexity).
larsb Mar 28, 2008 (9:36 am)
I have repeatedly said, and this is a FACT not my opinion, that ALL modern clean diesel and hybrid cars are very complex. The clean diesel technology on the BluTec cars alone is very, very complex !! I read a 15-page description of the whole system one time, and it's not exactly your 1975 Ford Truck my friend.
larsb Mar 28, 2008 (1:21 pm)
"...ALL modern hybrids and clean diesel cars are complex."
Uh-huh, well unless you acknowledge the relative differences of complexity, you could just as easily say that a Honda Fit, a VW Jetta TDI, and a Toyota Prius are all complex, and leave it at that.
The truth of the matter is that while the emissions system of the late model "Blue" diesels is more complex than the typical emissions system from a gasoline engined car, the overall complexity of the complete engine and drivetrain could be considered roughly on par with comparable gasoline engined vehicles. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a Honda Civic and a Jetta TDI are of a similar level of complexity, and both are way-WAY less complex than a Prius or HCH.
"GASP!", you say, "How could I possibly say that the engine and drivetrain of a TDI is on par with that of a Civic (from a complexity perspective of course)?" Simple, the exhaust system of the Jetta is more complex; however, the Honda has a spark ignition system that is very complex, as is its VTEC system as well as the variable compression ratio scheme Honda has employed on that engine by means of dynamically delaying the closing of the intake valve until part way into the compression stroke. Geez, I might even venture to say that the Jetta TDI is even a bit less complex than a gasser Civic.
For the sake of what this was about, i.e. Gary saying "hybrids are overly complex" then I do not change my opinion that all modern cars, particularly the emission control systems on clean diesels and the hybrid drivetrain, are all very complex.
If you are going to complain about complex cars, buy a 1975 Ford Truck.
A 1975 Ford Truck is good. Simple to repair. Lasts forever if taken care of. In spite of the complexity issues, I would consider an SUV diesel if they get to our shores. I am about 50% happy with my Toyota Sequoia. Nice to drive. Crappy electronics. In the future I will test the sound system before writing a check.
While getting my Sequoia serviced the rep told me a guy in Poway drives a 2008 DIESEL Land Cruiser bought out of the country. He has several LCs and just brought this one into the states. He is getting me the guys number so I can find out how he pulled it off. I am thinking it is probably licensed in another country. That may be the secret. Then I could have my diesel without all the extra crap that cuts down the MPG.
Nope, like ruking1, I have no problem with complex cars (assuming the complexity serves a good purpose). I just have a problem with overly vague language and careless analogies that are (IMHO) designed to mislead the reader.
Yes in late 2003 (2004 MY), I could have just as easily gotten a Toyota Prius. I even knew at the time that the lower than advertised (60/50? I forget) mpg WAS the norm (45-48 mpg). For a purposeful commute, I am still glad we got the 2004 Civic; 38-42 mpg in a normal commute. (Prius has a 8 mpg advantage, ) It would take 51 .4 years to break even on the 8 mpg advantage alone.
#5258 of 5259 Re: Nice opinion [shipo] by ruking1 Mar 28, 2008 (2:54 pm) Save | Reply Replying to: shipo (Mar 28, 2008 2:30 pm)
Yes in late 2003 (2004 MY), I could have just as easily gotten a Toyota Prius. I even knew at the time that the lower than advertised (60/50? I forget) mpg WAS the norm (45-48 mpg). For a purposeful commute, I am still glad we got the 2004 Civic; 38-42 mpg in a normal commute. (Prius has a 8 mpg advantage, ) It would take 51 .4 years to break even on the 8 mpg advantage alone.
Sad to say but 98% of the US consumers are not capable enough to understand this math. LOL Which you are right the Prius is mainly marketing hype. I would like to mention the Civic will probably have a higher resale value than the Prius in say 8yrs also given the Prius has pretty expensive parts which are not really tested on the age perspective yet.
Now having said all that. I doubt we will be seeing diesel hybrids in the manner we see hybrid "Prius like" however I do think we will see diesel cars with smart systems to maximize milege such as regenerative breaking for the battery which inturn allows reduced alternator use - perhaps more electrically driven systems such as electric airconditioner compresor- electric break vacume pump water pump etc. Given electric motors are more efficient for this application. Thus leaving the diesel to do one thing- move the car forward.
If you can have a civic sized car or even slightly larger that gets 60-70mpg without fancy and expensive batteries and two drive systems wouldn't that be better? But here is the catch! We will see more families that own an efficient diesel family hauler and an all electric city car soon enough. The only issue we face is American Auto will be caught with its head up its back side once again and they won't have any engineering or products that come even close to this. So now you have deep pockets trying to influence Gov policies to keep the competition out instead of getting with it and giving people what they want.
Smart well designed vehicles that get good milege which all the foreign car companies already know and have done their homework on.
That pretty well lays out the facts. The only reason the Prius sells well in the USA and Japan is because they are both closed societies. Open market societies like the EU have LOTS of choices. MANY cars in the EU get much better mileage than any hybrid. That is the reason the hybrids do not sell well where there are diesel options.
You can buy a 5 series BMW in the EU that gets equal to or better mileage than any hybrid. If you do want a small vehicle you can get 60-70-80 MPG all on diesel. Not in the good ole USA. We have lobbyist that are not interested in our getting better mileage. So they put out negative propaganda that the politicians push when they hear that jingling sound in their coffers. The masses, they will believe anything they see on TV as that is where they live. In front of a TV set.
If EU5 is clean enough in that cramped bunch of EU countries, it is clean enough for the USA.
Yes he has made that statement. My experience as recent as last Thanksgiving is the air is not all that good with less than 2% of the vehicles diesel. It is a dust bowl with no regulation on construction. They are leveling the desert and building homes faster than can be imagined. Except now that the CA housing market has crashed no one will be selling here and moving there, so they may get a breather. You can see the smog of Phoenix from 150 miles away. It is horrible. Almost as bad as San Bernardino. Not quite yet as that is the armpit of CA.
Comments
The truth is the new EPA testing did NOT change my already real world DIESEL 50 mpg. It did however change the 60/50 Prius rating to (2008) "Automatic: : 48 mpg / 45 mpg ", which in my .02 cent opinion was what it should have been all along and with NO changes to the EPA testing procedures.
Instead of saying/implying it was the TEST'S fault, Toyota should have gotten folks to sign releases saying they understood mpg would not approach 60/50 mpg UNLESS they RADICALLY changed their driving behavior, environment, etc, etc. At least that was very apparent to me when I did a 24 hour test drive. While I have never driven the Prius more autobahn like, I am sure it would have problems meeting the mid 40's.
If I drove the (2003) TDI more autobahn like, I could easily get its 42/49 epa ratings. . If I drove the speed limit (65 mpg) 55-65 mpg is/was a can do easy. My gosh, keeping it at 75 mph can clock 59 mpg.
Truly my biggest challenge is fighting road hypnosis @ speeds of 60-65 mph where we are talking an easy 62 mpg.
You want to Google the green awards it won that year? It will take a while.
This was never setup by ME to be a "hybrid versus diesel" thing at all. Some people are trying to make it that.
P.S. Actually, the cleanest combustion engine in the world belongs to the Honda Civic GX. 2004 Prius was the cleanest LIQUID GASOLINE burner.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, I did not get it backwards. I agree that diesel is only about 2% of the fleet (cars). I also agree that diesels get much better mileage.
"Nobody, especially diesel users/advocates have even remotely claim/s/ed diesel WAS/can be PERFECT."
You may not think so but that is certainly the perspective of others. Look at what happens when someone posts an article on emissions.
You mentioned the TDI many times and I agree that MPG is excellent and that the engine is built for the long haul. But as far as the engine going 500,000, that fact is completely irrelevant for me and I suspect for many other car owners. It has taken me 6 years to put 50,000 miles on my car. To reach 500,000 miles with a brand new TDI, it just will not happen. I will wear out long before the engine will. I also have no desire to keep a car that long.
The second issue with the VW cars is that their reliability is less than other makes. So while the engine will last forever the rest of the car will give you fits. Page 21 of the 4/08 issue of CR shows the VW has 175 problems per car after 10 years. VW cannot even beat the Koreans. How long has VW been making cars? For Hyundai to step in after just two decades or so and beat an ancient car maker like VW is rather interesting.
"Again what is the overwhelming position of the so called "religious" folks you are talking about? "
Just an observation.
Ending on a diesel note, I see that diesel has slipped in price by a few tenths of a cent in NY and nationally. Not much of a change but maybe it will accelerate a bit as the weeks wear on. I do have an interest in how high diesel prices are because I like the rest of us pay for higher transportation costs. $4 a gallon diesel is doing nasty things to truckers. Spring planting is coming and farmers will feel the heat. Corn and wheat prices may be high but the inputs like diesel, seed and fertilizer are also high.
That is not an opinion, not "gospel according to larsb" at all. It's a fact. Look it up if you have doubts. It was 4 years ago - the facts are now part of the world's historical record.
And any "greenest" contest in today's world which contains the current Prius will see the Prius scoring highly, if not the top spot.
Again: not my opinion, but fact.
But remember: these contests/awards are mostly subjective votes ANYWAY. I don't think it would be possible to actually measure and compare cleanliness of vehicles down to the milligram of every measurable pollutant and come out with a definitive, scientifically proven Number One.
The carmakers who spend extra R&D money making "clean green cars" know what they are doing.
P.S. For a good update on clean car technology for 2008, including trends and current data, see this page:
Where Green Technology Stands in 2008
This year, the natural gas-powered Honda Civic GX claims the title as the greenest vehicle for the fifth year running. Toyota's hybrid-electric Prius, which places second, is the year's top-scoring gasoline vehicle, while Honda's Civic Hybrid ranks a close third. Rounding out the top five are the recently released Smart Fortwo Convertible and Coupe and Toyota Yaris. In total, the Greenest Vehicles list contains one natural gas, four hybrid-electric, and seven conventional gasoline vehicles, a mix of technologies that demonstrates some of the avenues automakers have taken in developing greener vehicles. Whether using hybrid gasoline-electric designs, compressed natural gas, or simply clean and efficient conventional gasoline designs, automakers have visibly demonstrated their ability to engineer with the environment in mind.
Best Regards,
Shipo
If that is the case. Why do you consider them Facts only when they agree with your opinion? We are just one country in the World. When other countries have "Green Car" awards they have a lot more to choose from. For you emissions is the most important issue. You manage to discount the emissions you consider unimportant and emphasize the ones you consider bad.
For my way of thinking the EU is much more advanced in their method of doing emissions and fuel economy. ALL means of vehicle motivation carry some negatives. If the USA was progressive instead of regressive we would be saving as much fuel as the EU. We are not and are now suffering the consequences.
All these so called studies being brought to the diesel board to try and lessen the value as a fuel are of little value. Most are old or in the case of sticking 10 idiots in a room with diesel exhaust, it is plain stupid.
Bring us some data on current diesel cars using ULSD that is now readily available in the US. Show comparisons between like vehicles using both gas and diesel. I want to see all the emissions being spewed out by both. Not these cherry picked studies by those with a definite anti-diesel agenda.
There is a difference between the exhaust of a semi-truck and a Smart TwoFor diesel. Most of the biased studies posted do not differentiate.
Go compare the E350 and the E320 cdi on that site.
As the emissions is weighted for certain elements how is that portion relevant. If CO or HC were more important to the EPA than PM the diesel would be rated higher. The E320 CDI has been accepted by CARB. If you consider cars using 30% more fossil fuel giving the same service a good deal, that is your opinion. I would just as soon use less fuel.
You may not think so but that is certainly the perspective of others. Look at what happens when someone posts an article on emissions. "...
Well, using your logic, then by default you are in effect claiming RUG to PUG is the perfect fuel!!?? ? YES or NO?
I did post about how perception can trump the real facts. That is why I do post the facts, aka numbers.
When someone post about diesel emissions, questions were asked. I would agree you probably didn't like the questions or the answers you would give, if you truly responded.
But on the other hand, I am ok with answers like: don't confuse me with the facts, I already have my mind made up.
In addition, just as long as diesel models are expanded, hey you are entitled to your opinion.You don't like diesels, don't buy them. Pretty simple I think and you have the FREEDOM to or not to. The reason for the discourse is passenger diesels are a minority position @ three percent and as I have updated, has shrunk to 2%.of the passenger vehicle fleet. The funny part is D2 is infinitely more available than RUG to PUG. If more truckers leave the business, oxyomoronically and sadly, MORE D2 will be available and at cheaper prices!!!!!
..."I do have an interest in how high diesel prices are because I like the rest of us pay for higher transportation costs. $4 a gallon diesel is doing nasty things to truckers. Spring planting is coming and farmers will feel the heat. Corn and wheat prices may be high but the inputs like diesel, seed and fertilizer are also high. "...
I would agree.
Not to beat the context issue to death but if truckers were using RUG to PUG and getting 30% less mileage per gal @ 3.61 per gal, would that be better or worse?
( 6 mpg diesel/4= .67 cents per gal @ 30% less=-1.8 mpg=4.2 mpg/3.61=.86 per gal
I never said that.
Quiz:
What vehicle have I repeated stated is the car I am waiting to buy once it's available?
I never said that. "....
Operatively that IS the result!! So burning 30% more is not only mandated but increasing!!!!
I know of only one: the E320.
That's no one's fault but the automakers. Just put the technology on the cars to make it clean enough to meet mandates.
It's not that the mandates are too strict - it's that the carmakers don't want to spend the money to outfit the cars with the correct technology.
It's plain old greed.
It bears noting that American light truck diesels 2,250,2500, and 3.35, 3500 vehicles are all 2008 compliant. They haven't missed a lick for literally decades.
Now, we have one.
Did the carmakers not know all this time that diesel specs were going to require more stringent emission controls? OF COURSE THEY KNEW - it's their job to know.
So where are the cars??????
New car foreign diesels sales were banned in CA starting in model year 2005, but sold in the other 45/49 states. So there are the cars.
And know they did!!!! Why the interruption? First off, production limits. 2nd. Pretty easy, moving targets. When the targets stopped moving R& D , development to market and longevity testing time frames.
Cars/Trucks for sale today in the USA as a diesel
"cars" is a misnomer. One car. Only one. Priced out of "everyman's" range.
and:
Please note that light-duty diesel models are not available for sale in California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont.
Kinda rules out a lot of buyers.
All talk or eventual reality?
Nissan is planning a high-mileage diesel option in 2010
Honda's first North American diesel engine, a V-6, is expected to debut on the 2010 TSX sedan.
Cars/Trucks for sale today in the USA as a diesel
"cars" is a misnomer. One car. Only one. Priced out of "everyman's" range.
and:
Please note that light-duty diesel models are not available for sale in California, Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, Rhode Island and Vermont.
Kinda rules out a lot of buyers. "...
Your own link ( posted web site )shows 13 diesel models for 2008 passenger diesels.
All meet the passenger vehicle fleet moniker. Could not be sold as such if it didn't.?Another intentional mis characterization? We appreciate you stating your bias, but these types of elitest attitudes that makes diesels "dear" in the first place.
Please do note an American made diesel can be purchased in any state. i.e. 50 states.
Pretty interesting dynamics. First you applauded the anti diesel forces for limiting diesels and in effect getting the diesel populations down from 3% to 2%; then you slam the oems who want to offer diesels, for not having a greater population. !!!!!
But really the Toyota Prius has been out for a number of years and has NEVER been priced for Joe everyman/woman, even as they have as a goal to lower the costs.
But really to put this in context I was surprised to find that the average age of a new Corolla/Civic owner was 50's to 60's!!!! So it seems that even everymans best of breed "ECONOMY" options are not affordable to the majority of folks without 30-40 years of time on the work force. So for example at the time the 2004 Prius was 25k and the 2004 Civic was 12.6k.
Yep. and ONE passenger car. That was my point. Where are the passenger cars we have been promised for the last few years?
ruking1 says, "But really the Toyota Prius has been out for a number of years and has NEVER been priced for Joe everyman/woman, even as they have as a goal to lower the costs. "
Uh-Uh. MSRP of Prius 1 was $19,995. Current Prius MSRP is $21,100.
Almost all Priuses go out the dealer door today at less than the "average price paid" for a new car in the USA, which is around $28,000.
I have NEVER "applauded" anti-diesel forces for limiting diesels, in part because they have never done that. The diesel exhaust itself is it's own worst enemy, and that is what limits the diesel cars.
All the automakers need to do is provide adequate filtering and the cars meet the regs.
And where is my 5-passenger diesel/hybrid sedan? That's all I want to see.
If a good electric car beats the diesel/hybrid sedan to the US market, that would be a crying shame.
So is 21,100 greater or lesser than 12,600 ? (the attending explanation does not change)
"The diesel exhaust itself is it's own worst enemy, and that is what limits the diesel cars."
"All the automakers need to do is provide adequate filtering and the cars meet the regs."
The answer to both: All the diesels sold during the periods mentioned met ALL applicable emissions laws. Indeed CA would have registered that year's diesel from another state with 7500 miles.
..."And where is my 5-passenger diesel/hybrid sedan? That's all I want to see."...
I do not know where is it? Sort of like wanting a sub 13k Prius?
..."If a good electric car beats the diesel/hybrid sedan to the US market, that would be a crying shame. "...
Sorry, stop crying, been there, done that already. approximately 12 years ago I was involved in getting an all electric Ford Ranger (28,000 price tag) for our municipality. (the competition was a Toyota RAV IV)
If the diesels in the applicable period met all regs, then they would currently be for sale in all states, and we would have more than one clean diesel passenger vehicle for sale in the USA right now.
Don't confuse larsb with facts. His mind is made up. Hybrids are his life. He has money to burn and believes we all want to waste money on every new flaky technology that comes to market. One day when his warranty is up if has not already bought a third hybrid, he will be posting about how he was gouged owning that overly complex car. I am sure he is right that after the regulators get done with the diesels they will be nearly as complex and trouble prone as the hybrids. I am about to just buy me a 3/4 ton diesel truck that does not have to be smogged. Strip all the crap that causes problems with them running well and call it my last vehicle. It will get better mileage than this gas guzzling Toyota I am driving.
I never ignore facts. I never "get confused" by facts.
I have repeatedly said, and this is a FACT not my opinion, that ALL modern clean diesel and hybrid cars are very complex. The clean diesel technology on the BluTec cars alone is very, very complex !! I read a 15-page description of the whole system one time, and it's not exactly your 1975 Ford Truck my friend.
Cars in 2008 are complex. That's life.
The only thing "my mind is made up about" is that Hybrids save fuel, and so do clean diesels. That's why I want a clean diesel hybrid sedan in my driveway.
Might be, might be not. We can only "know you" on this thread by what you write. In a sense any of us are connecting the dots. You are the one providing the dots.
You could be a PH D in world wide emissions technology and policy, for all we REALLY know, writing in the provocateur style as a foil to the cap of your profession: or anything in between. So any to all of us are responding at any to all levels to what you are writing at whatever level you are writing. I know a lot of Ivy Leaque educated folks who write in the email format like they are hoping to get their high school ged in another 6 years of full time study, after they didnt really get the first 4 years.
..."Cars in 2008 are complex. That's life."...
Your quote conveys no real information. We can of course draw conclusions; that you feel victimized by technology being complex to that is a can do easy..
But really when it comes to automobiles, I really do not have any problems a big work shop filled with 50,000 to 100,000 worth of tools, computers, equipment, and access to the parts logistics can not solve!!!
Cut to the chase? SOS DD.
PC? It was put in context. You know that. You even know why diesels, normal cars and hybrids are cited in the diesel thread. I can repeat it as many times as you profess not know that, reread that, or ignore that. So what would be the purpose of that?
The Civic at 12.6K is about 16K less than the average price of a new car. That's the only thing that can be said about it that has any bearing on this discussion.
I believe that is what I said. If you are so pro diesel. Would you buy a diesel only car if it was equal to or better mileage than your current hybrid? The Jetta wagon TDI is due out in a few months for all 50 states. It will I am sure get better mileage than the TCH.
Yes, all of these cars are complex, but the complexity is extremely relative.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The closest I would come to a "diesel only" might be a Passat TDI wagon. It's larger, and would still likely beat my TCH on mileage. I'd like to drive one.
I would have to figure cost per mile and figure in the cost of diesel fuel also.
The only vehicles I would SERIOUSLY consider replacing my TCH with right now would be:
1. A diesel/hybrid 5-passenger sedan with comparable interior size and MPG around 60 combined (easily done with a diesel/hybrid)
2. A 5-passenger electric car with A/C and range of at least 40 miles.
Until one of those comes out (or unless the Passat TDI wagon could woo/wow me) then I will keep my TCH for now.
Just pointing out to Gary (it's been an ongoing theme between us ever since his first post saying "hybrids are overly complex") that most high-technology vehicles today are complex, and that criticizing said complexity is just a waste of time.
It's not 1975 any more.
If I may put in my .02 cents, KEEP your TCH. I have always been curious about the reliability and durability of the hybrid batteries (TCH in your case) @ 100,000, 200,000, 300,000 miles and beyond.
My take and or swag is it is a slam dunk no brainer to 100,000, 200,000 miles, BUT... I would NOT want to put words in a TCH owners mouth.
To make it applicable to diesels, the same is true. I am doing the normal tasks necessary (actually less than gassers) to see the TDI to (already approaching 105,000 miles- ZERO defects) 200,000, 300,000, 400,000, 500,000 miles and beyond.
My sense as of this period; 200,000 miles for the TDI is a slam dunk, no-brainer. It still amazes me, the mpg is 48-52 mpg. Depending on the procedures I want to follow, the fuel consumption range is between 44- 70 mpg. I am still on the "crappy"(worst of three oem choices) oem tires (@105,000 miles). The alignment is from new car delivery. I am doing a conservative 25,000 miles OCI's. :shades:
To link these two products by scientific experiment, again would take YEARS after that. Again can we come to another preselected "desired" conclusion? (aka fraud)? Hysteria works best when the crisis drums are in rapid staccato, accented by "end of the world" syncopation. A boring longitudinal study....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....... sorry I am awake now,... good for way in the future SLOW news days.
But then again the Myans predicted the end times happening in 2012. :lemon: :sick: The bad news? They are extinct!? The good news? They just might be WRONG! :shades:
Well maybe that wasn't what you were intending to suggest, however, anybody who is unfamiliar with these two cars would almost assuredly translate your words to mean Jetta TDI = Prius (from the perspective of complexity).
larsb Mar 28, 2008 (9:36 am)
I have repeatedly said, and this is a FACT not my opinion, that ALL modern clean diesel and hybrid cars are very complex. The clean diesel technology on the BluTec cars alone is very, very complex !! I read a 15-page description of the whole system one time, and it's not exactly your 1975 Ford Truck my friend.
larsb Mar 28, 2008 (1:21 pm)
"...ALL modern hybrids and clean diesel cars are complex."
Uh-huh, well unless you acknowledge the relative differences of complexity, you could just as easily say that a Honda Fit, a VW Jetta TDI, and a Toyota Prius are all complex, and leave it at that.
The truth of the matter is that while the emissions system of the late model "Blue" diesels is more complex than the typical emissions system from a gasoline engined car, the overall complexity of the complete engine and drivetrain could be considered roughly on par with comparable gasoline engined vehicles. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that a Honda Civic and a Jetta TDI are of a similar level of complexity, and both are way-WAY less complex than a Prius or HCH.
"GASP!", you say, "How could I possibly say that the engine and drivetrain of a TDI is on par with that of a Civic (from a complexity perspective of course)?" Simple, the exhaust system of the Jetta is more complex; however, the Honda has a spark ignition system that is very complex, as is its VTEC system as well as the variable compression ratio scheme Honda has employed on that engine by means of dynamically delaying the closing of the intake valve until part way into the compression stroke. Geez, I might even venture to say that the Jetta TDI is even a bit less complex than a gasser Civic.
Best Regards,
Shipo
If you are going to complain about complex cars, buy a 1975 Ford Truck.
While getting my Sequoia serviced the rep told me a guy in Poway drives a 2008 DIESEL Land Cruiser bought out of the country. He has several LCs and just brought this one into the states. He is getting me the guys number so I can find out how he pulled it off. I am thinking it is probably licensed in another country. That may be the secret. Then I could have my diesel without all the extra crap that cuts down the MPG.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Replying to: shipo (Mar 28, 2008 2:30 pm)
Yes in late 2003 (2004 MY), I could have just as easily gotten a Toyota Prius. I even knew at the time that the lower than advertised (60/50? I forget) mpg WAS the norm (45-48 mpg). For a purposeful commute, I am still glad we got the 2004 Civic; 38-42 mpg in a normal commute. (Prius has a 8 mpg advantage, ) It would take 51 .4 years to break even on the 8 mpg advantage alone.
Sad to say but 98% of the US consumers are not capable enough to understand this math. LOL Which you are right the Prius is mainly marketing hype. I would like to mention the Civic will probably have a higher resale value than the Prius in say 8yrs also given the Prius has pretty expensive parts which are not really tested on the age perspective yet.
Now having said all that. I doubt we will be seeing diesel hybrids in the manner we see hybrid "Prius like" however I do think we will see diesel cars with smart systems to maximize milege such as regenerative breaking for the battery which inturn allows reduced alternator use - perhaps more electrically driven systems such as electric airconditioner compresor- electric break vacume pump water pump etc. Given electric motors are more efficient for this application. Thus leaving the diesel to do one thing- move the car forward.
If you can have a civic sized car or even slightly larger that gets 60-70mpg without fancy and expensive batteries and two drive systems wouldn't that be better?
But here is the catch! We will see more families that own an efficient diesel family hauler and an all electric city car soon enough. The only issue we face is American Auto will be caught with its head up its back side once again and they won't have any engineering or products that come even close to this. So now you have deep pockets trying to influence Gov policies to keep the competition out instead of getting with it and giving people what they want.
Smart well designed vehicles that get good milege which all the foreign car companies already know and have done their homework on.
You can buy a 5 series BMW in the EU that gets equal to or better mileage than any hybrid. If you do want a small vehicle you can get 60-70-80 MPG all on diesel. Not in the good ole USA. We have lobbyist that are not interested in our getting better mileage. So they put out negative propaganda that the politicians push when they hear that jingling sound in their coffers. The masses, they will believe anything they see on TV as that is where they live. In front of a TV set.
If EU5 is clean enough in that cramped bunch of EU countries, it is clean enough for the USA.