Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    I don’t believe the article addressed gallons per acre so we might have to research that a little farther.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that algae may be the answer somewhere down the road. Many environmental obstacles in the way. I think the Camelina was being compared to canola and soybean. Camelina offers higher yields on poor ground. Looks like something to keep an eye on.

    I don't see the US flooding huge areas of the desert to produce algae for biodiesel. At least not until we are in dire straights on diminishing fossil fuel sources.
  • drewbadrewba Member Posts: 154
    I don't see the US flooding huge areas of the desert to produce algae for biodiesel. At least not until we are in dire straights on diminishing fossil fuel sources.

    But when the time comes when fuel is short, I expect that we will support just about anything to try and hang onto the American lifestyle. That would include flooding a desert or drilling in ANWR.

    I would actually support drilling in ANWR now if all of the lease proceeds would be directed toward renewable energy research or even infrastructure.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that ANWR will be opened to drilling when the flow from other fields in the Arctic slow down. ANWR is no more or less sensitive than all the areas that are now being produced. As long as government regs are in place and followed ANWR should be a good source of oil in the future.

    Flooding the desert to produce algae for fuel has a whole lot of bigger issues than drilling in ANWR. Flooding the desert is an unknown where ANWR is a viable safe source of energy.

    I think we will have developed oil off all our coasts before we try many alternatives.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This might be hugely off topic, But CALPINE got an electrical plant built on app 100-150 acres of land right in the heart of Silicon Valley during those Gov Davis,CA, Enron, golden, black out days: in RECORD time and under budget. All swore no new power plants would ever be built, not to even consider the Silicon Valley!! All it took was a couple of widespread outages in the summer and not even a peep from the environmental folks who rule the roost on most days. :) Funny how UN NIMBY folks can be when it is THEIR air conditioning and refers not working. The funny thing is the plant is located on a natural lowland reclaimed from the Bay. This of course means it is prone to flooding :):( Indeed I have been on the very land the plant is cited in an suv almost up to its axles in MUD. Before the electrical plant siting, the last couple generations of use were hot house flower farming.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    It reminds me of the bus load of NY environmentalists that were touring Kaktovik. The Eskimo village that sits in the middle of ANWR. One of the bright young environmental types told the Eskimo giving the tour that they would have real problems if ANWR was opened to drilling. The Eskimo's comment was the people in the states were the ones that would have the problem if they ran out of oil.

    It will be interesting as things get tighter on the energy front. I don't think we are close yet. If we were the government would start implementing ways to conserve, such as diesel cars. As long as the oil is flowing and the taxes are coming in Congress will do nothing to rock that boat.

    Status quo is a win/win for Congress. They get lobby money to stay in power and the tax money to spend.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    The thing with ANWR is that it is not a great reserve. Approximately 60 days of oil is the estimate so even if you drill it and get every drop, it's only a a literal drop in the ocean.

    Not sure where the concept of 'flooding deserts' came from for algae production. The science is based on using vat-like containers feeding carbon dioxide rich salt water. It would make most sense to position them near existing power stations to use the run-off waste water from the power station.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    When the leases were let for the Prudhoe Bay field in 1969 they figured there was about 9 billion barrels of oil. They started pumping in 1977. They are still getting oil from that field 30 years later. So far they have gotten about 3 times the original estimates. The trillions of cubic feet of Natural Gas have not been tapped for use yet. Even if ANWR came on line tomorrow it would still be producing in 2050 or longer. The approximate 16 billion barrels can only be produced as fast as the infrastructure will allow. Last I checked they were limiting the pipeline to a little over a million barrels a day.

    On flooding the desert. That was put forth by the University of New Hampshire I believe. It was a model to produce enough biodiesel with algae to replace all fossil fuel. I think they were referring to the area around the Salton Sea. I think the smaller scale production that you referenced would be more practical.
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Member Posts: 483
    For those who like information over pure hyperbole.

    http://www.calpine.com/index.asp
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I'm glad you brought that up. I am a big advocate of geo-thermal. Guess who has done more to block geo-thermal production in the USA. You hit it on the nose the environmentalists. The Geysers is a great source of cheap clean energy for the Bay Area. Yet not all people want to produce the other great geo-thermal sources in the state. We could produce a lot of cheap clean electricity if not for superstition and environmentalist looking for a hand out.

    Native American rights activists and environmentalists gathered at Calpine headquarters in San Jose today to dissuade the energy company from its decades long plan to develop a power plant on a sacred area near mount Shasta.

    The Pit River Nation and environmental groups took their battle to the 9th circuit court of appeal and won a decision from a three judge panel last year, which reversed leases, Calpine had to the land. Medicine Lake is in an area known as the Glass Mountain Geothermal Reserve, one of the largest untapped geothermal reserves in the state.


    http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2007/01/30/18354239.php
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Of course since that time Calpine has declared bankruptcy, I am guessing to reload and retool for machine gun fire vs bolt action action. :)

    I have also heard/read that EVERY building/structure has the capability to generate up to 2x the energy of that said building structure(passive solar energy) with NO increase in footprint. But another company that declared bankruptcy to reload for machine gun fire vs bolt action action has the most to lose and gain. Currently getting permits in the dozens of municipalities in the area is at best a hit and miss crap shoot proposition, with those very same municipalities being the major obstacles to getting those permits. There is literally NO standardization. Incidently B/E is currently SWAGGED at 10 years.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I don't know how people are supposed to develop alternative energy sources. I do not know of a single development that has not been fought by some environmental group.

    You would think wind generators would be considered great clean sources of energy. Companies spend millions getting them online and some crackpot group comes up with a reason to shut them down. Altamont Pass is one good example. Now they are trying to block new wind farms in the Mojave and Nantucket. I don't believe some environmentalists will be happy until we are all back living in caves chewing on peyote cacti.

    The example closest to us is the always changing regulations to block the use of diesel and subsequently biodiesel in our cars and small PU trucks.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Indeed my gas and electric bill looks more like a yearly real estate tax bill for all the taxable line items (min of 19 line items). I can literally cut my gas and electic use to ZERO yet still be required to pay app 97% of the bill. So say I was "able" to get off the power grid and stop the service (stop laughing, you all). The municipality can literally condemn the house as being unfit for habitation. Hard to conserve when consumption is MANDATED. Of course they would grant you the time it would take in the process of foreclosure proceedings. :(:)
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Another case in point; Many years ago we had a one or two year drought in the Seattle / Tacoma area, i.e. the Northwest and the people did such a great job answering the cries from the utility companies to save energy that the reduction in use was massive. The result, the utilities lost so much money they had to add a sure charge to the electric bills to make up the loss in revenue.
    While conservation is a good thing, it just goes against the grain to do your best and then get slapped with a fee for doing so well.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    Essentially a similar process or progression will/is happen/happening with diesels. It really doesn't take much computer power to see how it plays out. All anyone need/s to do is goggle the prices of unleaded regular and #2 diesel in Europe. 50% and growing are diesel and fuel is 6/7 US per gal and above. Fuel mpg can exceed 50.

    Some examples: PER MILE DRIVEN

    Euro Jetta 50 mpg/6/7 per gal =
    .12-.14 cents

    Z06 Corvette 25 mph/3.60 per gal=
    .144 cents

    USA Jetta 50 mpg/3.05 per gal #2 diesel=
    .061 cents per gal.

    USA Jetta 30 mpg/3.37 per gal ULR=
    .108 cents
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Honda's new diesels arrive in 2008. The 4 is said to be 2.5 liters and available in the Accord and the CRV. Honda is said to be using VCM with their diesels. Let's see. 2.5 liters should be about 160 horsepower and 280 ft. lb. of torque! I want one!
  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    Do you see a lot of Ranger PUs with Diesel there?

    Apparantly, not only is Ford not considering selling the diesel version of the Ranger here, it is thinking of killing it altogether.
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    It took Honda over 8 years to develop their first own (2.2 liter) diesel engine (the older 1.7 CDTI for the Civic essentially was an Isuzu), and I dare to doubt they will lay up an additional 2.5 liter version for the American market.
    So if you really are going to get a Honda diesel next year, it will apparently be the same 140hp/250lb.ft 2.2 CDTI 4-cylinder which is available here in Europe since January 2004. It´s a powerful, smooth-running and quick responding engine. I really liked it when I rented a CRV diesel during my summer holiday in Italy last year.
    And talking about VCM in this context should be a hoax.
    Being pretty useless with smaller engines anyways, it absolutely makes no sense with a diesel. Variable Cylinder Management was designed to eliminate so called "pumping losses" that occur when driving at low loads with the throttle valve almost closed. As you may know, diesel engines don´t have any throttle valve... ;)
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    Honda has already said they are reworking the 2.2 to meet the US standards for 2008/2009 and it will be there next generation diesel engine that will be introduced here. I think it may grow in displacement, but the 2.2 puts out plenty of power and torque as it is. Hopefully they will focus on efficiency/smoothness and not on maximum power and torque.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Check it out. Then let me know what you think.
  • bamacarbamacar Member Posts: 749
    Thanks, Blufz. The Inside Line link:

    Honda Accord Diesel

    Sounds good to me.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    I suppose the VCM would apply to the larger V6 diesel.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think that is for the USA made Ranger only. They are still very big in Australia and SO America. Not sure on the EU. We do not have any small PU trucks here. Only midsize and larger. Kind of a shame as a small PU will do what a big share of the current PUs will do using much less fuel. The Brazilian built Ranger Crewcab with 4 cylinder diesel engine and 5 speed stick gets an honest 45 MPG highway.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    I think the US Honda diesel will still be a 4 cylinder. I could try to find a decent Honda dealer in my area and buy an Ody diesel. Not sure that big box could squeak out the 30 MPG I am looking for.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Well the diesel Ridgeline is coming. The larger Trucks get a V6 Diesel. The 4 is for the CRV and the Accord. It states the Accord gets apprx. 45mpg highway.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Hopefully they make it look like a PU I would want to drive. The Ridgeline and Avalanche are two of the ugliest trucks ever built. I like straightline utility in my PU trucks. Pre 2002 GM are still the best looking trucks IMO. No new truck gets me wanting to write a check. If I ever get rid of this 2005 GMC hybrid I will buy an older GM PU truck and keep it. Unless a new small diesel truck hits our shores.
  • gagricegagrice Member Posts: 31,450
    Do you have any links on that Honda V6 diesel. I have not found any.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Yeah,those things definitely put the U in ugly. I could see more conventional PU variants of the Ridgeline that would sell well if it were regular cab and/or access cab diesels.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    No. From past reading I just know the 4 is used in the smaller vehicles and the V6 is for the larger vehicles. You should get 30 in the oddy on the highway w/ VCM.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Well, it looks like Ford and GM are busily refusing to get out of their own way again...

    From this linked article:
    http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/01/autos/diesels/
    this....
    Neither Ford nor GM has any plans to try again with diesel passenger cars or SUVs for their home market. It wouldn't be cost-effective for them, a Ford spokesman said, because Ford cars available in Europe as diesels aren't sold here. And the market is too small for them to develop U.S.-only diesels.

    This is in an article describing BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai planning on bringing 50-state legal, high mpg diesel engines to US market for passenger cars and big SUVs.
    I guess that Ford and GM think that the reliability will just keep selling their 11-14 mpg SUVs? :confuse:
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Gary, what info do you want about the Honda V6 diesel engine?

    It's not ready yet according to all the pages I can find, so there are no available specs yet.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Lemmings don’t get it either, they just keep running over the cliff.

    On Friday I mailed a letter to both GM and Ford to explain why I was not a happy consumer due there flat out refusal to develop a US diesel market and push of ethanol as an alternative fuel source. And because of the ethanol thing that food prices are going up, etc. etc.

    If and when I get a response I’ll post it.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    Not sure if you got to read the article but the strangest part to me is that they are not doing the development because they keep the US and non-US models separate.

    This just makes no sense when they can leverage their existing expertise, they use a business division model to justify non-implementation.

    Good for you for being pro-active with them and registering a complaint. I think the only thing that will change their position is if Dodge or Toyota put a diesel in their 1/2 ton trucks. That would be a real threat to their profitable truck business and would coincidentally be a great application of diesel technology.
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    blufz1, please have a glance through this wikipedia article and try to understand why VCM and all similar systems were exclusively designed for large gasoline engines.
    Diesel engines work in a completely different way and are generally operated under air surplus (absence of throttle valves). No matter if it´s a 6, 8, 10, 12-cylinder - they don´t have to suffer from pumping losses and related effects at light load driving.

    link title
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    The straightline news report said they were working on multiple displacement diesels for the U. S. market. That sounds like some form of VCM to me.
  • jkinzeljkinzel Member Posts: 735
    Today I got a call from GM regarding my letter. Basically it was just a “thank you” call for letting them know my concerns and opinion.

    The body of the letter is posted below.

    BTW, I would encourage everyone who feels strongly on this issue to write GM and Ford and express your views. I mailed the same letter to both so you don’t have to get too creative. We spend hours a day pounding the keyboard venting to each other, so send a letter to the people that need to hear it.
    Several of us have also written our Congress Person and in some cases received the usual form letter of yada, yada, BS, BS.

    About two years ago I wrote Ford and GM inquiring about diesel passenger cars and light trucks for the US market. Both stated at the time that they had no intention of bringing diesels to the domestic market and I can assume that both Ford and GM will continue to withhold these high mileage cars from US consumers for unknown reasons.

    Almost all of the vehicles Ford and GM produce have a diesel counterpart in the rest of the world so providing the US market with these vehicles is reinventing the wheel. The Ford Ranger with the diesel sold in Europe and the UK gets rave reviews from all that own or drive them. At 35-38 mpg for the diesel version as opposed to my <20 mpg for the 4L gas version, clean diesel is by far the better choice

    The domestic auto makers have not chosen the fuel efficient diesel, but a quick and cheap compliance of the CAFÉ standards by touting ethanol as the alternative fuel with some very negative results. And while I will not blame the auto industry entirely for the push to ethanol, you didn&#146;t step away.

    Diesel is 35% more efficient than gasoline and E85 is 25% less efficient than gasoline, i.e. a car that gets 20mpg on gasoline only gets 15mpg on E85 but can get 27mpg on diesel or bio-diesel. A 17mpg difference is a lot of fuel and a lot of money over the course of a year. Now add to the increased fuel cost due to lower mpg and the fact that the push for ethanol has raised the price of food in the grocery stores and I get hit twice in the pocket book. I&#146;m not a happy consumer right now because of the path the domestic auto makers have chosen. You could have done a lot better.

    Considering the marketing decisions the Captains at Ford and GM have made in recent years, it&#146;s not surprising to see why domestic sales are so appalling.

    You can offer us high mileage diesels or you can offer us cars that cause us to pay more at the grocery store. Ethanol was not your best choice as a marketing tool; it was and is, in fact, a disaster.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,356
    Very good post and I could not agree more. I guess I will have to continue to spend my money on Hondas, Nissans, Toyotas, Mercedes and BMWs.

    Our Mfgs. continue to make the wrong decisions every time. They will eventually figure it out but it will be far to late for them. I wish them good luck.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hwyhobohwyhobo Member Posts: 265
    Well, it looks like Ford and GM are busily refusing to get out of their own way again... [...]

    Having owned more Fords than any other make, I have to say this is just one more reason why I have lost any sympathy for Ford's plight. They have incompetent management that will ultimately bring the company down. Perhaps they will rise up from the ashes when the board of directors finally wakes up and fires the whole lot of them, for they have demonstrated than nothing short of a total disaster will make them act decisively.

    Not that GM is much better in that respect. Their sorry ads about how fuel-efficient Tahoes are proved it beyond any doubt.

    I have never owned a Honda before. When they bring Accord diesel (and hopefully the wagon version one day), that may change.
  • bristol2bristol2 Member Posts: 736
    My ideal vehicle is a 1/2 ton pick-up from Ford or Gm with @25-30 mpg.
    Right now though I drive an Accord and I have to tell you I have been very impressed with Honda's attention to detail.

    If they nail the diesel as well as they nail the I4 and v6 engines it will be very difficult to justify buying anything else.
  • ruking1ruking1 Member Posts: 19,826
    This is old news, but indeed the engineering designer of the VTEC I4 was/is the designer of Honda's iCTDI.
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    True. They definetely have to rework the 2.2CDTI, because the current configuration doesn´t neither meet American nor Japanese emissions standards.
    But as I learned they will keep the displacement due to the innovative (but very complicated) casting procedure for the all aluminum block. Bore and/or stroke obviously are not as easy to vary as on conventional blocks.
    Rework measures concentrate on modifications of the combustion chamber, turbocharger, EGR and ECU. Most important part is of course the two-chamber NOx catalyst. This catalyst is said to produce ammonia from a certain quantity of exhaust in first chamber, which converts NOx into normal nitrogen and water in second chamber. Works similar to Volkswagen´s NOx-reservoir catalyst, but apparently still requires EGR.
    Apart from increased fuel efficiency and lower emissions all those measures might also result in more power and torque, but there are no tangible specs available yet.
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    Make me an offer for my old mule: ´95 4.3 S-10 PU single cab/long bed, fairly good shape, only 155k on the odo and runs on LPG, too....!
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    The Honda guys obviously try to reinvent the wheel.
    If they keep up working on their V6 diesel at the same speed as on the 2.2, I wouldn´t expect this engine on your roads before 2012.
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    I read the straightline news report. I think there are some journalists who might not have the right technical understanding and put their own interpretation in the information they get.
    I know, Honda engineers love to make things complicated, but in this case they wouldn´t be able to justify their extravagance. The benefits VCM could give to a diesel are marginal, the disadvantages are worse.
    When talking about multiple or variable displacement they probably are refering to the turbocharger and not the engine. Electronically controlled variable displacement and airflow turbochargers meanwhile are state of the art with every advanced turbocharged engine, no matter if diesel or gasoline.
  • blufz1blufz1 Member Posts: 2,045
    Could be. I just read the piece and thought it interesting. The larger 2.5 displacement diesel makes sense for the U.S. market because it will be an automatic and diesel prices are not as high as Europe. Honda will err on the side of power over absolute economy for the U.S. markets first diesel experience. Honda re invents the wheel because they can. They are the premier engine builder in the world.
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... Honda, sure is behind in Formula One and Moto GP and they don't even have an entry in any of those divisions where a Diesel is a viable option. I wonder if they are going to buy or make their piezo-ceramic driver/triggers or really have an injection breakthrough.
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    I don´t know how long it took our ancient cavemen to invent the wheel the first time. But today, as everybody knows how it has to look like, the Honda guys should take a little less time....
  • tomcat63tomcat63 Member Posts: 82
    What do you think? The entire common-rail system including high pressure pump, regulators and piezo-trigged injectors is designed and produced by Bosch/Germany...
  • roland3roland3 Member Posts: 431
    ... I believe Siemans has some CR tech.
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