Diesels in the News

ruking1

we might not have to travel far outside of Erwin, New York????!!!!....for some innovative answers:

"Volkswagen Selects Corning DuraTrap Filters for Clean-Diesel Passenger Cars"

http://www.azom.com/details.asp?newsID=4369

Some more corporate releases: (some would label items such as this under propaganda)

http://www.corning.com/environmentaltechnologies/media-center/press-releases/2006020303.aspx

ruking1

"New bill would undermine California's emissions rule"

by Frank Davis, MediaNews Washington Bureau pg 8 A, Mercurynews.com, National News, Wed, June 6, 2007

Washington- In an unusual move that challenges Speaker Nancy Pelosi and California regulators, two House DEMOCRATIC (all caps my sic) leaders are pushing an energy proposal that would increase federal fuel efficiency standards but block any state from enacting more stringent controls.

If enacted it would halt efforts by California and 11 other states to limit greenhouse gas emissions from vehicles. The draft bill would block the Environmental Protection Agency from granting those states the permission to enact those regulations.

The proposal offered by two veteran House Democrates, John Dingell of Michigan and Rick Boucher of Virginia"...

jkinzel

Not a bad thing, but I can hear the screaming all the way up here in Washington.

fezo

Given who the two Congressmen are this does not surprise me. Don't expect that one to pass but it would not surprise me if we end up with a nice, watered down CAFE bill.

blufz1

If Honda took "less time" their products would be as shabby as the other makers.

tomcat63

Wow...! Did you ever apply for a job at Honda´s PR-department?

tomcat63

...but they only cook with water, too...

link title

ruking1

Sure glad I dodged those bullets mentioned in that article.

blufz1

Just tryin' to keep the conversation lively, boys.

ruking1

I think the diesel option in the upcoming Honda Accord (platform) will in some ways be a very interesting study in terms of how and where the iCTDI be positioned: both in the market place and where the rubber meets the road.

It is becoming more widely known that diesel motors have a very long design life. (as an example, VW 1.9 TDI specified at 80% (loading) for 25,000 hours @ 40/45 mph avg, the mileage life CAN be between 1,000,000- 1,125,00 miles.

This shows up in the (design) good/bad news of the 100k timing belt change. The good news is you in effect can tune it (up) 9/10 times during the motors life time. The bad news of course: you have to do it. The other news: who will likely keep it that long?

So do they design the body to last (far) longer,make no changes and emphasize the so called "sex" of the superficial advantages of diesels? Or do they scale DOWN the iCTDI design life way down and mention not a word. As a lead in to the discussion, the Honda Civics' have a rust warranty of 3 years vs 12 years for VW.

blufz1

Maybe VW knows their fenders will fall off before they rust out.

gagrice

That's Toyota man. VW has a decent rust warranty. Recognize that vehicle? All four fenders rusted through.

bristol2

Ouch. But now you have all the excuse you need to have some real fun in the truck!

ruking1

Actually that is an interesting comment, but I think it gets to the heart of the matter, and the title of my post. If you look at Gagrice's following post, it really hints at the almost massive design life differences between say VW and Honda/Toyota etc. A (gasser)engine in Japan is considered ready for the bone yard at 50,000 miles!? So really, it follows and not much sense to have a warranty or more importantly- durability much beyond 36,000 miles. There are literally a myriad of things this affects/effects. So a 1 M mile Honda diesel engine is a 20-1 mismatch vs the 50,000 mile metric.

If one operates in a relatively rust LESS environment, SOCA, AZ, NM, TX, etc, this level of durability might indeed be over kill. In the environment I operate, 420,000 miles or 4 ea 105k intervals timing belt changes is/are do able. I know I would be dreaming if I operated in say upstate New York.

gagrice

Its my son's 4Runner in Alaska. I think he is at 185k miles on it.

blufz1

Not sure what you are saying. You start out seeming to say that Hondas/Toyotas are not designed to last more than 50k. Then you state you plan to get 420k out of your Civic. What r u talking about?

ruking1

Correct. I am swagging that it is more probable the design life of the Honda iCTDI will not be 25,000 hours like the VW's.

blufz1

The VW diesel has a long life not because VW built it it. But because it's a diesel vs. gasser. I'm sure Honda can build a diesel engine at least as well as VW.

ruking1

Without a pathway to the specifications, that remains to be seen. There is an element of truth to your assertion of better because of diesel vs gasser. Again this is why it will be interesting when Honda comes out with the US markets iCTDI where we can compare diesels. The rest of the platforms in theory should support the diesel platforms.

I have said this before (on other threads) but Honda does reliability well on mediocre quality. VW needs to do reliability much better with already higher quality. Since I live with both side by side, to me, the VW has way better quality in comparison. Reliability for BOTH have been the same for similar miles. Honda's consumable parts seem to last half as long (at the same mileage intervals) as VW. This is also borne out albeit in an off handed way even in Honda's own advertising. One caveat they refer to is not counting consumable parts they are the rated very high in reliability and quality.

So to close the 420,000 miles seems do able on the Honda Civic. 500,000 to 1,000,000 miles seems do able on the VW Jetta.

larsb

Um, Yeah, I'd say Honda can build a diesel engine as well as VW. Here is a link:

Honda Diesel sets multiple world records

gagrice

It will not mean anything to our fossil fuel consumption until it is for sale in the USA. From that standpoint it does not match up to the VW TDI which are for sale in the USA. And will be in CA showrooms in 2008. In Honda's favor it has opened up the EU market that they were having a difficult time penetrating. I will try to find a decent Honda dealer for a test drive when they put their diesel in an Ody or Pilot.

ruking1

This is not my personal opinion, as I have read Honda (Japanese nameplates) has/have SEVERE challenges in the European markets. European's simply have not bought Japanese nameplates in the targeted volumes and percentages. Honda, as a result; for example has ventured into the China market and has done very very well.

bristol2

The Japanese imports are just seen very differently over there (I can only speak for the UK).

With manufacturers like Seat, Skoda, Peugeot, VW, Rover (not Range Rover), Ford, Fiat, Opel, Vauxhall all providing plenty of value offerings the Japanese have not been able to win the value/ small car market over there (that is one of the reasons that they do so well in that market here- because of the intense competition in that market in Europe).

Interestingly the Japanese imports are seen as cab driver's vehicles, reliable but not fancy. The Camry/ Accord/ Maxima size car is really too big for most buyers over there also, but great for luggage on a trip to the airport.

The next barrier has been the question of reliability over there. This is an odd one and I can only think that the shorter average distances travelled in Europe must explain this, but Audi, BMW and VW are all looked upon as ultra-reliable, solid vehicles. Not really our experience over here.

As the Japanese move the upscale models over there (Lexus is there already but struggling with no diesel to offer , Honda is going to make Acura world-wide) I think the Euro approach to Japanese cars will be a little more welcoming.

blufz1

Dunno re european sales. It's just my experience as an owner of all types of Honda cars,motorcycles and equipment that I have not found any brand better. I previously owned a Super Beetle and a Jetta. Test drove a Passat. I do like the interior of the new VW. Has a quality,comfortable feel,and good handling and paint. I do know their historical car to car quality/resale is not as good as Honda. The U.S. 4cyl diesel is rumored to be 2.5 liters. 280 ft. pounds of torque will blow the doors,maybe literally, off the smaller VW offerings. So I think that is of interest. You apparently got a very good VW. Just drive it forever. Just my .02.

ruking1

Experiences with Honda products have been flawless. The resale on the latest product, has exceeded (my) projections. The first year it could have sold for more used, than bought new! 2nd and third years continue: better than projected.

VW Jetta TDI is way OVER the (my) best projections!

Indeed if VW TDI's gets out in any vol and %'s, that 280 # ft torque figure will be the cause of marketing problems for like HP gassers!!! The torque on the 2003 Jetta is 155# and with a swap to Euro sized injectors can go to app 195# ft with app $285. US. VW has got it right to pump up the hp and torque. Stock, it will cruise easily at 120 mph ALL day. Indeed I did at 90/95 mpg across Texas (W/E and E/W) a tad before Hurricane Katrina. Didn't want to run afoul of TX State Troopers who passed me as if I was standing still at 90/95 mph!

Indeed on legs of the trip, I was swapping positions with fully loaded tractor trailers as each of us drove our torque curves. I really didn't want to cruise at 120-125 mph to outdistance them or slow to 60-65 mph to put a huge time lag between us. So when it became clear they were ok with the changing of positions, it was a pleasant journey, literally for hours on end.

blufz1

Just extrapolating from the 2.2 to the 2.5 would be about 160 horses and about 280 torque. Now I can get a bigger Bass boat and keep my economy!!

jlbl

"The Japanese imports are just seen very differently over there (I can only speak for the UK)....Audi, BMW and VW are all looked upon as ultra-reliable, solid vehicles."

You can extend such a judgment to the continent. May be it is a stereotype, but German brands are perceived as the paramount of reliability over here.

Jose

houdini1

Jose, I have also noticed that most Europeans have little use for Japanese cars. How do they compare price wise with European cars in Europe?

I think part of this is just loyalty on your part. Not a bad thing IMO. :shades:

jlbl

"I think part of this is just loyalty on your part."

You are right, Dan.

Indeed, there is chauvinism in the attitude towards German cars all over Europe, but in particular in the luxury segment. Japanese cars are generally thought to be after Europeans and American cars.

More and more cheap and medium price Japanese cars have however been bought by Europeans along the last fifteen years. Japanese brands were firstly appreciated because of their price. Another introductory cue being they had more extended warranty periods than the Europeans. There are many of them here now, yet there are not chic

Most of Japanese and American cars sold here have parallel gas/diesel versions, but I think you know well this.

Regards,
Jose

houdini1

I would make the comparison that in the U.S. we view South Korean cars (Hyundai, Kia) the same way you view Japanese cars. Not chic. It just takes time for a car company to earn respect and admiration.

jlbl

Do not forget the severe competence that Japanese cars face here in the low and medium levels. Opel (Vauxhall in the UK), Citroen, Peugeot, Renault, Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Skoda, Seat and the rest of VW Group models and brands.

Something happens with the web. It is painfully slow. May be is "hora de ir a la cama". Good night.

hwyhobo

I have also noticed that most Europeans have little use for Japanese cars

Please do not forget that Japanese products carry punitive import taxes in the EU countries compared to European products. From my conversations (anecdotal evidence only), Japanese products are perceived as being of excellent quality (Honda Civic being the best example) but quite expensive compared to European offerings.

gagrice

Maybe the EU matches the import duties that Japan puts on cars from out of their country. Too bad we have allowed Japan to have a one way street on import duties. I think it is time to level the playing field.

Japanese also prefer German cars to their own luxury brands. MB and BMW are very popular in Japan. I read the main reason that Toyota did not offer the Lexus brand until this year was fear of failure in their own market.

Back to diesel. I understand that diesel cars will start being sold in Japan this year. That should be interesting. I wonder if Honda can compete with VW at home.

bamacar

The same biases are held by Americans in reverse. Peugeot, Renault, Fiat, and Alfa are all seen as old unreliable cars that couldn't make it in America. Even though they have a number of good models now, their old reputations are still known by many, and I think that is why they are afraid to reenter the US market.

Since many see Volkswagen as about the least reliable brand in the US, Skoda and Seat would probably also not do well. GM is bringing select models from Opel under their Saturn brand so we will see more of those in the future.

mgata1213

From what I've seen in EU, a Honda Accord ( our TSX here) is about the same money as a nice BMW 3 series. A diesel Accord is even more money. Europeans do think that Japanese cars are very reliable, but lots of times unreachable because of price. Why have an Accord gasser for 27,000 Euros, when you can have a Passat for about 21-22. Why have an Accord diesel for 31-32000 Euros when you can have a BMW 3 series. My experience is fairly limited to Romania only, but I have a feeling it extends to other countries.
Of course, I have not even taken into account the other very good offerings from VW such as Skoda and Seat who are much cheaper than VW themselves.
An yes, in most of EU countries taxes are much higher for some Japanese cars...I think if it is made outside EU.

bristol2

Here's a link from another forum suggesting the Diesel Accord could get up to 52mpg...

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/06/new-accord-diesel-to-hit-60-mpg/

jkinzel

Not one word about diesels. The media sure does go to great lengths to ignor diesels as an option.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118055889115119023.html?mod=yahoo_hs&ru=yahoo

ruking1

I think the problem is more like there are only a minority of folks that have experiences with diesel. (less than 3% of the passenger vehicle fleet)

When I take (other than family or friends who know or more importantly even CARE, some still don't even know) clients in the TDI, I think I can only remember one time someone even asked. So in that sense the reality is operation is pretty seamless, as it relates to the old stereo types of smelly old diesels and marbles in the can sounds.

larsb

It's not the media. There are tons of Google News articles mentioning the potential of clean diesel, almost every day, and I know because I look at them almost daily.

The media is not ignoring clean diesel and it's future.

It's the American Public/Car Buyers who need to be convinced.

jlbl

Fully awake now, with Edmunds web site working fine again.

I do not think Japanese cars are more expensive here because of unfair taxing, actually. (What is more, I remember Japanese car makers being accused of dumping prices, some time ago.) I will copy in the following the prices for a basic diesel Honda Accord and its direct European competitors.

By the way, all sort of passenger cars are more expensive in Spain than in other European Countries but Denmark. :mad: We pay a "registration tax" which over compensate a lower VAT tax. Car prices in Denmark are prohibitive, on the other hand.

Honda Accord, 2.2i-CTDi S, 140 hp, € 27,000
(Lexus IS, 220d, 177 hp, € 37,250)
Alfa Romeo I59, 1.9 JTD, 150 hp, € 28,550
Audi A4 2.0 TDI, 140 hp, € 31,610
BMW 318d, 122 hp, € 31,500
BMW 320d, 163 hp, € 34,500
Citroen 5, 2.0 HDI, 138 hp, € 27,995
Mercedes C, 200 CDI, 136 hp,, € 34,250
Opel Vectra, 1.9 CDTi, 150 hp, € 27.770
Peugeot 407, 2.o HDI ST C, 136 hp, € 25,300
Renault Laguna, 1.9 DCiE, 130 hp, € 21,942
Skoda Octavia, 2.0 TDI, 140 hp, € 24,000
VW Passat, 2.0 TDI, 140 hp, € 26,630

I can post prices of diesels from Saab, Volvo, Ford, Chrysler, Chevrolet, etc., if you wish.

Regards,
Jose

ruking1

In case folks are interested

Conversions

One dollar = .7488 Euro
One Euro= $1.3356 dollar

gagrice

Even many diesel owners do not know there is controversy surrounding diesel cars. A fellow bought a microscope from me and was driving a Golf TDI. I asked him how he liked it. He was totally pleased. Bought it new here in CA in 2003. He had no idea you could no longer buy them new in CA. All he knew is it gets great mileage and is fun to drive. We are a very small minority on Edmund's. I would be surprised if a million individuals have logged on to the forum since it came on line. That is not even 1% of the population.

Maybe our host has a figure on Forum members.

ruking1

Yes to put it in perspective: because we have/do drive diesels, we can see/imagine the trend 5/10/15 years away as right here right now or reality, when in fact it is NOT for most folks. Europeans might see this "American" cluelessness about diesels as just another example of US national disengenuousness. Of course the price differentials (3 dollars per gal in the US vs 6/7/8/ dollars on the Euro continent) engender almost NO sympathy. The math however indicates that by in large we pay a similar cost per mile driven. One difference being the Euro authorities take a HUGE % more in taxation, as huge as it is in the US.

I post mpg figures for the (GASSER) Honda Civic on that Edmunds.com site and some folks think what we get in a commute is more than suspension of disbelief. (journalistic euphemism for bold face lie) When I mention diesel can get 25-40% better; they probably think I just took another dose of whatever (recreational drug of choice).

jkinzel

It has been a trying week for those who think hybrid-engine cars are destined to be a mass-market phenomenon. First, on June 5, Honda (HMC) confirmed that the next generation of its Accord sedan won't feature a hybrid option. The current Accord hybrid, which went on sale in 2004, has sold only 25,000 units and just 6,100 last year. "Americans didn't accept the Accord hybrid," a spokesman for Honda told reporters.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/jun2007/gb20070608_920568.htm

moparbad

Problems with hybrids are better discussed in the hybrids topics. Pointing out fault with hybrids in the Diesel formums causes undue negative and off topic discussion.

My opinion is that diesels, hybrids, natural gas, hydrogen and other alternative technologies are welcome to exist and prosper now and in the future. The more the merrier.

jkinzel

Problems with hybrids are better discussed in the hybrids topics. Pointing out fault with hybrids in the Diesel formums causes undue negative and off topic discussion.

I agree with you that this is not the place for Hybrid information, it is about diesels and the article had some good information as to how certain companies are shifting there focus to use diesels in bigger cars. While the article did bring out some negatives, my intent was to share the diesel aspects of the article and not hybrid bash.

KCRam

I certainly know of the controversy, being a diesel owner for 11 years and watching Cummins have to redesign the engine every 3-5 years to meet the next set of emissions regs.

Right now, diesel fans are the hardcore people who lived with the smoke and clatter of years past, or just better understood the benefits. But people still think of diesel in 2 ways... the smokers of the late 70s-early 80s, and/or being stuck behind a older truck or bus in traffic. Until a prominent company gets behind diesel , Americans won't really care. Even if Chrysler and Honda commit to diesel as their high-mpg low-emission alternative, Americans still won't run to it. Only if GM, Ford, and Toyota go for it will diesels become mainstream in the US.

kcram - Pickups Host

gagrice

How about Peugeot? They make great little diesel engines

blufz1

I think at these fuel prices Americans will jump at 45mpg Accords and 40 mpg CRVs. If they don't,great, I'll be able to grind a better deal.

jlbl

"How about Peugeot? They make great little diesel engines"

So great than Peugeot and BMW are developing together a new of generation of them, e.g., for the Mini

Regards,
Jose