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Will Chrysler continue to use Mercedes diesels?
Too bad they aren't familiar with Freds' TDI site.
There is a group there that regularly gets in the high 50s and low 60s
with their New Beetles, Golfs, Jettas, and even the older Passats.
What 3700 pound car can achieve the fuel economy of an MBZ 'E' class CDI. not to mention the performance? :confuse:
I think most people in the U S have the heads in the sand when it comes to diesels. :surprise:
Especially the C A R B people here in Kaliforneia. :mad:
Carry on, and maybe, just maybe some people will wake up and smell the clean air behind a modern diesel.
1. Marbles in a can sound (decrease from 25-1 compression)
2. smelly old diesels (ULSD, and emissions tailored to diesel fuel)
3. diesels can not meet emissions standards (diesel fuel is 15 ppm and LESS vs unleaded regular at 30 ppm.
4. The need for the 0-60 metric
Indeed there is/are (a) door/s and path/s to actually NOT using unleaded regular and into alternative fuels that are more environmentally friendly than unleaded regular. Also portions of that supply can come from waste in processes' that have been an intergral part of human civilization for a very long time. So a short term long term goal is 23% of the passenger vehicle population being alternatives like #2 diesel. Diesel models in some or most of the product line/s can be a reality. VW (among others) has been an example.
I wonder if I still had my place down there I could buy one?
Perhaps it's a hint we shold be living down south?
Hybrids have a much bigger board here at Edmunds... please keep it to diesels in this area.
kcram - Pickups Host
Honda Motor Co. plans to sell diesel-fueled cars in Japan by 2009, the Nikkei business daily said, a move that could reignite the all but dead diesel passenger car segment in the world's third-biggest auto market.
While diesels make up more than half of new cars sold in Europe due to their relatively low emission of carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas, they have mostly been wiped out from passenger cars in Japan due to their poor image as dirty and loud.
But the powertrain is slowly gaining traction around the world since it typically gets 30 percent better mileage than gasoline engines, while tailpipe emissions have become much cleaner with new technology.
A spokesman at Honda, Japan's No.2 automaker, said no decision had been made on whether or when to introduce a diesel car in Japan, repeating the company's stance that it was simply under consideration.
Last year, Honda said it had developed a new and simple diesel powertrain that is as clean as gasoline-fueled cars and would mount on it on a car for the U.S. market by 2009.
The newspaper said Honda planned to introduce diesels also in Japan from 2009, and might speed that up to 2008. The engines would first be used in key models such asthe CR-V SUV and Accord sedan, it said.
Executives at many Japanese automakers, including Honda President Takeo Fukui, have over the past few years warmed to the idea of a return of diesel-fueled cars in Japan. Nissan Motor Co. and Subaru-maker Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. are also keen to see diesels challenge the green image that gasoline-electric hybrids enjoy.
Toyota Motor Corp., which controls more than 40 percent of the Japanese market, has been notably lukewarm on diesels for Japan and the United States, saying the cost of developing an engine clean enough to meet the upcoming strict emissions standards there would be prohibitive.
DaimlerChrysler AG is so far the only automaker to offer a diesel passenger car in Japan, through the Mercedes E 320 CDI sedan. The German automaker has said orders have surpassed expectations, hitting 1,000 in April since its launch in August.
Diesel cars' weakness has been higher exhaust levels of oxides of nitrogen (NOx), and carmakers are racing to come up with ways to meet what will be the world's toughest emission standards to be introduced in the United States this year.
Honda's new diesel drivetrain generates and stores ammonia within a two-layer catalytic converter to turn NOx into nitrogen.
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The only question is will diesel engine be in the 2008 or 2009 Accord in the US?
It has always been a matter of markets (unleaded regular) /will (R and D monies and others, to cite examples).
Indeed if we compare and contrast the time it took unleaded regular gassers, 30 plus years and #2 diesels, scant 3 years to come to 50 state compliance, one could easily make a case for the more consumptive fuel (25-40% greater on like models) unleaded regular fuel polluting longer (30 plus years) and with more volume (97% and higher of the vehicle fleet is unleaded regular) vs 3 years for diesel and with more cost upstream and downstream than #2 diesel.
Interesting in the face of their supposed green image. They have no problem selling dirty diesels in the rest of the world. The Number ONE automaker is not willing to spend the money to build a clean diesel for the US and Japan.
1. Honda: no V-6 diesel for the Ridgeline will be built. Honda says not now or in the future.
2. For the Cadillac CTS, a 2.9L V-6 diesel with over 200HP and over 400 lb-ft of torque will be offered in Europe and maybe here. The engine is made by V.M. Motori, which is wholly owned by Daimler and made the engine for my Jeep Liberty CRD.
V.M Motori is an Italian company located in Cento. They have been building diesels since 1947 and Chrysler has been using their engines since the late 1980's, early 1990's to power their European offerings including the minivans. They build some pretty stout stuff and several of their designs are licensed to several auto makers including Hyundai, Honda (Asia) and a few others.
Q to Winter - When/where did Honda state no 6 cyl diesel?
Until the USA and Japanese car buyers show interest in diesel family sedans, which has yet to happen, then why would Toyota start offering them?
Don't you have to have a market before you have a car for the market?
Wouldn't that be putting the cart before the horse?
It has nothing to do with their much-deserved green image.
VW sells/sold Jetta and Golf in diesel and demand has been higher than supply.
Mercedes sells diesel E series sedans and demand has exceeded prediction.
Honda will soon sell Accord sedan with diesel option.
Nissan will soon sell Maxima with diesel option.
Subaru will offer diesel in family passenger vehicles.
BMW will offer diesel sedans in the next 2 years.
Mitsubishi will offer the Lancer sedan with diesel within the next 3 years.
What sold first, the chicken or the egg? :confuse:
Perhaps in 30 or 40 years Toyota will have anyalyzed the market data for diesels and will begin offering them in USA.
Until the USA and Japanese car buyers show interest in diesel family sedans, which has yet to happen, then why would Toyota start offering them?
BMW is considering sales of the MINI D in Canada.
Well, I don't know. Does that mean that Lexus is all screwed up as they have not sold as many GS models as Mercedes has sold E class diesels in the last year? Sounds like there is a market that ToyLex completely missed. Oh, and MB sold those diesels without the buyers in CA. It would probably have sold twice as many. Plus Toyota could have propped up their lagging sales in larger SUVs with a diesel option as Mercedes has done. How do you justify their selling diesels in all the rest of the World? Doesn't that pollution from dirty diesels circle the globe. Or is it OK to pollute Mexico, just a few miles from where you live?
At least companies like VW, Audi, MB, Honda, BMW & Jeep are making an effort to sell high mileage clean diesels over the entire World. Most of those will have cracked the CARB nut within the year. Then we shall see just how big the market is for high mileage fun to drive diesel cars. It will not break my heart to see Toyota lose market share. Guess what segment it will be in? Those that are looking for better mileage than ANY gas car can offer.
Basically the US government gave the big three 1.5 B (.5 billion EACH) dollars with a clean BLANK sheet and said: develop your best high mileage engine. ALL three (coincidence here?) developed diesel motors.
The way they are acting now, you would think diesel motors dropped to earth from alien technology and they can't reverse engineer this to save their (literally) lives.
An announcement that General Motors Corp. will assign a new engine line to its Tonawanda Powertrain Division plant is expected this Friday.
The manufacturing complex made a formal bid for a 4.5-liter diesel that would be installed in certain pickups and SUVs in the 2010 model year. Production would start in 2009.
Soon you will have your choice of fullsize 1/2 ton diesel pickup trucks. Ford, Chevrolet/GMC, or Dodge.
Cummins will supply the diesel for the dodge. Ford and GMC are building their own diesels.
Nissan and Toyota? Well, they still have not figured out the fullsize truck market and maybe they never will. :P
I do not know if this is currently true but I read in passing that Ford pulled Navistar's (diesel oem) by pulling a WalMart squeeze the vendors' move on them and Navistar stopped delivery of diesel motors and threatened to sue.
I think that if Toyota had not scored so clearly in the public conscious with the Prius, they would be pursuing clean diesel more vigorously. However if Toyota believes hybrid is their best long-term, high mileage engine, developing diesel would be a dead-end for them. Not a popular decision in this forum but certainly one they may have made.
It should be soporificly easy for them to sell any make of an economic and useful diesel car - if they just wanted to.
But as you all know, this business is harshly blocked by your legal regulations. They (funny enough) allow all kinds of insane and dangerous vehicles on your roads as of e.g. Jesse James´ "Monster Garage" or "Orange County Choppers", and your big industrial production facilities have no problems polluting their guts out of themselves.
But foreign so called "dirty" diesel passenger cars are declined as long as they are not as clean as an air-refresher...!
:mad:
But I'm not seeing or hearing a lot of people clamoring, begging, or picketing for a diesel sedan to buy.
And carmakers know if a market exists because they spend millions of dollars on market research, that's how.
Every Tundra I've seen on the streets here has a Texas-flag sticker announcing it's San Antonio origins.
I actually always swore I would drive a locally-built truck while they were still in construction but then gas prices really hit and the fact is that I don't need one for work.
It is a smart strategy on Toyota's part to locate the plant here, the state and the city are huge truck markets.
But I'm not seeing or hearing a lot of people clamoring, begging, or picketing for a diesel sedan to buy.
What are people clamoring to buy? SUV's? Full Size Truck? Hemi V8 300's? Toyota Sequoia's?
Demand is very high for fuel efficient vehicles. People are buying smaller cars in order to obtain fuel efficiency. Hybrid have greatly increased demand.
Diesel vehicles offer high fuel efficiency and excellent drivability without having to drive a sub-compact or compact car.
What do you expect? I would not expect that people would "clamor" to buy a diesel from Toyota when Toyota does not sell a diesel. I would not expect hybrid buyers to "clamor" to a Suzuki dealer.
All I'm saying is this:
Once the clean diesels are granted 50-state approval by WHOMEVER (CARB, EPA), and Toyota and Honda both have multiple choices in SUV, sedan, and passenger pickup categories, we will SEE how much diesel demand their is.
Until then, all the speculation and guesses are just THAT - speculation and guesses.
My opinion is that demand from buyers will start slow, just like demand for hybrids did in USA in the early 00s.
It will be a while before as many diesel passenger vehicles (sedans and SUVs and passenger pickups) are sold in the USA as hybrid cars and SUVs. ( I don't count big diesel work trucks because they are a niche category. )
My personal opinion is that since diesels were limited to used units in 5 of the key market states for Toyota that they opted for another solution rather than fight the legislative battle to win diesel's acceptance. They could control their own fate by developing a new technology which would be salable in all their key markets immediately. Recall that this is what the environment was in 1996.
The result is that they could begin to earn profits immediately in their key coastal markets and set themselves apart as a high tech innovator. Mission accomplished.
But the confluence of technology and sudden rising fuel costs made this innovation a household name; tissues are Kleenex and hybrids are Prius'. Serendipitous timing to say the least.
They've avoided the legislative brouhaha, they've set themselves alone til now, they've created a profitable brand out of nothing and they've likely learned a lot about where this can go. From the beginning they've always stated that no matter the power source the technology is just a multiplier to improve any source. Note that they don't ever mention Gasoline/Hybrid in any of their releases.
All I remember from Toyota dealerships is their smug attitude and the fact that you had to sign up on a 3-month long waiting list for a Prius without even getting the privilege of sitting in one first. If that's what you mean by "slow start", then yes.
Toyota uses Isuzu linkup
Isuzu will invest about 30 bln yen to build a diesel engine plant in Hokkaido that will exclusively supply Toyota, which plans to use the engines in passenger cars sold in Europe, the business daily said.
By partnering with Isuzu, which has advanced diesel engine technology, Japan's top automaker aims to challenge Honda Motor Co which plans to introduce passenger vehicles equipped with clean diesel engines in Japan and the US in 2009, the newspaper said.
I guess Toyota will be playing diesel catch up in the US also. They are sounding more like the Big 3 every day.
kcram - Pickups Host
If Chrysler can get the 4.2L Cummins V6 under the hood of the next-generation 300/Charger/Magnum, I would talk everyone I could into buying it.
kcram - Pickups Host
And Mazda already sells diesel 3's and 6's elsewhere.....The Mazda3 diesel will join the Mazda6 and is expected to arrive in September. It will be available in both sedan and hatchback form and will have the same engine as the current Mazda6 diesel.
The 2.0-litre common-rail turbo diesel produces 105kW and 360Nm and has a claimed fuel consumption of 6L/100km.
It will only be available in the one Maxx Sport trim level and will feature a rear spoiler, 16-inch wheels and, unlike the petrol models, Direct Stability Control will be a standard feature.
quote-
Nissan Motor Co is preparing a diesel-powered version of its Titan full-sized pickup truck by 2009 for the United States, with engines built by local truck and engine maker Navistar International Corp, industrial daily Nikkan Kogyo Shimbun reported on Friday.
Japan's third-biggest automaker, held 44 per cent by Renault SA, offers no diesel vehicle now in the United States, where the fuel-efficient powertrain is used mostly on commercial vehicles including large pickup trucks.
A spokeswoman at Nissan said the company could not comment on future product plans.
Nissan launched the Titan, its first and only full-sized pickup, in 2004 hoping to carve a place in the lucrative, US-dominated segment, but sales have failed to live up to expectations.
In May, Nissan sold 4,899 Titans, down 18 percent from the year before. So far this year, sales are down 15 per cent at 28,668 units.
A 2008 model year Titan went on sale in April in a segment facing stiffer competition from Toyota Motor Corp's remodelled Tundra, which Japan's top carmaker has called its most important product launch to date.
Toyota has hinted that it would eventually offer a gasoline-electric hybrid version of the Tundra.
The US pickup market is dominated by Ford Motor Co's F-Series and General Motors Corp's Chevy Silverado, the two best-selling vehicles in the world's biggest auto market.
International Truck and Engine Corp, Navistar's principal operating company and the exclusive supplier of diesel engines to Ford's Super Duty pickups, will supply Nissan with the V8 diesel engines, the Nikkan Kogyo said.
The Titan is now powered by a 5.6-litre V8 gasoline engine.
Nissan is due to launch a diesel version of its Maxima sedan in the United States in 2010 with engines produced by Renault.
-end
Isuzu will supply diesel engines to Toyota. Engines will be manufactured in Japan.
They will likely not be installed in Toyota's sold in North America since there is no demand for diesels in the US. No one is clamoring for them.
My 06 Chev diesel is an example. I love it. 20+ mpg on the road at 60-65mph.. Can't beat it.
Not sure what "losses" they are trying to cut - Sales are Strong in both the UK and Germany
Diesel News from 2004 on the Jetta TDI
But the real-world mileage of pleasant-driving Jetta was better than that of Prius, and diesel fuel typically was 16% to 20% cheaper than unleaded gas.
Jetta lived up to its one-tank billing. Prius did not.
Report from the UK Toyota dealers. Looks like slow sales to me. They are somewhere between 5th & 7th place in their best EU markets. Not impressive for the World's Largest automaker. Toyota does not compete, well where there is a good choice of fuel efficient vehicles.
We should reach 146,000 sales roughly, although supply is outrunning demand.
Is this an excuse? Or just spin on poor sales?
It's not volume for volume's sake because pursuing volume can lead to trouble, but we have the room to grow.
Trying to get by without diesel cars in the EU is futile. Toyota sees that and is trying to catch up.
When you find a mid-size 5-passenger diesel car available in the USA which can get 109 MPG for one tank like the Prius can, you let me know about it please.
I was responding to Gary's contention that Toyota was "cutting it's losses in the EU" by pointing out that in 2007, Toyota and the Prius are enjoying good success and increased sales in the UK and in Germany.
I was not dissing diesel in any fashion.
HMMM.
Sales up 16 percent in 2007.
How is that "slow?"