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Really there is no need to wait. Diesel's with 7500 miles can be registered in CA. Maybe a short trip to Las Vegas in your Carrera S !!!
Fit and finish are generally better in the VW.
I won't argue with you on this.
...the failure RATES are higher for critical typical customer concerns.
I'm guessing right now that you do not own a 1.8T Passat. Or if you do, not one that was impacted by the failed coil packs, sludge, or a dead CCM.
So for example, if a Honda customer keeps his Civic for say 100,000 miles, they are probably not going to care that they might need an oil change every 5k, tires at 50k (to 100k) brakes, rotors, possibly and a timing belt change at 105k. For the VW, an OCI is 10k and if you are dialed in, it can go to 25k, 50k is 2x what those tires are lasting.
Again, I'm guessing you don't own a 1.8T Passat. Oil change is mandated at 5,000 miles (MAXIMUM - earlier if driven under severe conditions). And the oil is 502.00 spec - you won't find it at just any store.
Oh, and BTW, I'm at 40K miles on my VW, and on my third set of tires despite careful maintenance of alignment, PSI and rotation.
I won't dispute that VWs have very nice fit and finish. Panel gaps are small and even, switch gear feels high quality to the touch, etc. But hang out on the Passat forums here and elsewhere on the web and you'll see a certain commonality to problems - leaking sunroof drains that kill the transmission control module and the comfort control modules that reside under the front floorboards; engine cowling drains that are easily clogged; CV joints that fail in the 50K range; rear brake pads requiring changeout at 25K; etc, etc. And it's Russian roullette to go 105K on the timing belt.
I love the dynamics of my car. I love the look of it. The safety features are outstanding and there are few other cars that I'd want to be driving in the event of a serious accident. The car just feels good. But reliability isn't the strong suit of the make - hasn't been since the water-cooled days started (and I've got three cars' of experience over three decades to back that up). Be your own mechanic or be prepared to pay a lot to keep it running for the really long haul.
To bring this back on topic, all of the above is exactly why I'm waiting for Honda, Toyota, and Nissan to bring out their diesels. I'll put up with a little less dynamics in exchange for a heaping more reliability.
It looks like all manufacturers are holding fire on introducing their 'clean' (tier 5 bin 2) diesels until they are 50 state compliant.
That gives them the opportunity to bring them to the entire market at the same time, big savings in marketing.
It is pretty clear that diesel will give us an immediate 30% increase in mpg. It is laughable to hear the auto lobbies pushing against a 30% improvement in their fleets by 2020 when they could achieve it with clean diesel by 2010.
(ULR) unleaded regular midrange and premium are now the defacto "GROSS" polluters at 30 ppm or 2x as much as ULSD. This is NOT to mention of course that it burns anywhere from 20-40% more per mile of "work" than ULSD (like models).
That is very true! However, as nice as they are... they aren't the very latest and greatest. For example, Mercedes' CDI inline 6 will be replaced with the smoother and quiter (and cleaner) V6 BlueTec. THAT's the one I'm after. I actually own out-of-state property, so I could actually buy a new one and drive it with out-of-state plates for 7500 miles, then re-register it in California.
Depending upon the release of BlueTec, if it comes out-of-state first in the GL, I'm a buyer. It is, however, my understanding that it will be released in all 50 states at the same time for obvious marketing advantages.
Thanks... I like your thinking "out-of-the-box"!!
TagMan
Absolutely! And what's laughable is that TOYOTA is an active member of the Auto Alliance that is in the middle of major legal wrangling against the State of California's clean air requirements, yet at the same time TOYOTA is the leader in hybrid technology with vehicles that far exceed the State's requirements. TOYOTA publicly claims to be a compnay that supports the production of clean efficient automobiles, yet shockingly, in the back smoke-filled rooms, TOYOTA supports the legal pressure to stop progress towards the requirements for clean emissions.
Talk about a hypocritical company... TOYOTA takes the cake. :sick:
TagMan
Gotta respect Honda engines... and Honda engineers! Afterall, their small diesel will NOT need any urea solution to meet 50-state compliance.
TagMan
I am a bit surprised, in that I drive the Jetta much harder and at higher sustained speeds than the Civic. While it is tempting to say it is just the difference between S and H ratings, I have had S rated suv tires go INXS of 90k
Both, Honda and VW, will use very similar working two-stage NOx-converters. The internal chemical reaction is based on ammonia and takes place in two steps, which is efficient but slow and doesn´t make it functional with engines of larger displacement, that logically produce a higher overall quantity of exhaust. That´s the reason why you will have to live with urea on your projected BlueTec GL.
Although being a German, I honestly don´t have any particular or narrowminded passion for VW. I take things pretty unbiassed and relaxed.
I spent 15 years of my life at a big local VAG dealer´s shop fixing Audis and VWs. I can state they are not perfect and not made for eternity, just as everything else mankind made. But I can also state they definetly are (here in Germany) no bigger lemons than other makes.
Volkswagen traditionally is the best selling car brand in my country and they hold an approx. 25% share of registered passenger vehicles. If they were that bad, our roads were constantly clogged with stranded Golfs, Passats, Jettas etc., but believe me they are not.
Where could be the problem then? First, I notice they are significantly cheaper in US than at home. While you pay some USD 26,000 for a new Jetta TDI, it´s the same number here, but in Euros (which comes to almost USD 35,000)! Is it because VWs for the American market are assembled somewhere in Mexico and under less stringent quality management? I´d be interested to get one of those into my shop and take it apart.
Second, you obviously often enough have to suffer from pretty incompetent dealership and poorly trained technicians. Reading some of those horrorstories posted in the sedan-forum literally drives me crazy. They play kind of a lottery throwing plenty of parts at a car without getting the problem fixed. If I worked like this, I could close down my shop immediately...!
Or do American consumers simply have higher expectations and are annoyed with the slightest issue?
I mean, here in Germany for example American and Italian cars have the image of a constant source of failure. Nevertheless folks (I´m one of them) buy a Chevy or an Alfa Romeo for some reasons, but they don´t expect to have a troublefree time and keep an eye on their car.
I really would like to know, why there is such a big difference in VWs reputation.
If any of you can, please give me a clue...!
Next, let's talk about the service experience. My personal experience is that some techs can't actually think through a problem if the diagnostic scan is negative. No code = no problem.
Then there is VWoA's attitude about warranty issues. There's seems to be a stronger willingness to say "no" than there is to say "yes - it's covered."
For some reason, the US press likes to latch onto VW's stumbles. When the coil pack thing came up, the press really was all over it, while Nissan was having some similar problems that they weren't even addressing under warranty.
Don't even mention Italian cars in the US. Before the mid-market marques left the North American market, the cars were rife with mechanical issues, rust problems, and a thin dealership network.
DOn't get me wrong - I like my Passat. It was the safest, best priced, economical in the size that I wanted. But I know that I have to watch it more closely than my wife's current Honda or the Mazda that the Passat replaced. Most consumers here aren't used to that level of attention.
One of the biggest perception issues for VW is the phenomenon known as Consumer Reports. The company surveys its membership and collates the results in color coded grids. They then put a subjective recommendation for the vehicle. There is a lot of discussion on just how 'good' this data is, but they have routinely slammed all VW products.
Dealer network is a big part of the problem but it is exescerbated because VW does not have many small, private mechanic shops with expertise in their vehicles. This means that even small issues become expensive to have fixed because the customer is always dealing with the dealer mark-ups.
Interesting that you mention price, VWs are positioned in the US market as a near-lux brand. Chevy, Ford, Honda and Toyota make the 'every-man' vehicles over here. VW are perceived to make the next step up in terms of materials and (unquantifiable) 'style'. This means the customer has an expectation that does not really fit with VW's 'every-man' brand in the rest of the world. Buyers of a VW in the States feel they have spent more than the average for a car and expect it to perform above average.
Finally VW has had some pretty big failure rates with some components that have received a lot of press. I know the ignition coils impacted the Passat's reputation and the Bug has a terrible reputation over here.
I don't know how many products are made in Mexico and what impact that would have. I don't believe the Passat is made in Mexico.
Consumer Reports had listed the Passat as a "recommended" vehicle the year I bought my Passat.
Why didn't VW simply slap a big old sticker on the engine cover that says "This engine must use synthetic oil?" Why did VW give a 105K mile timing belt change for the 1.8T engine? It frequently doesn't hold up that long. Why did they install a plastic impeller in the water pump that can self-destruct, jamming the pump and taking the timing belt (and valves) with it? Why does radio reception have a unexpectedly high failure rate? Hang out on the Passat forums across the web for awhile - you'll see the same issues come up repeatedly. More puzzling is that VW did not react to some of these failures by addressing the problems from model year to model year.
And Bristol2 is correct - all Passats sold in the US are asembled in Germany at either the Mosel or Emden plant.
Ummm... it already is out, and has been for a little while now.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
The weird thing is that VW of America´s maintenance guides apparently differ from the German ones.
1.) For the 1.8T we have a timing belt change every 120,000 kms/75,000 mls with the waterpump as part of the system routinely changed, too. It´s an easy 90 minute job of approx. € 250/$ 335 including parts. Due to this we never had problems with collapsing plastic impellers.
2.) There is a sticker inside the engine compartment telling you about synthetic oil requirement. But in opposition to some ridiculous 5,000 mls intervals (you mentioned before) we have 30,000 kms/18,750 mls OCI and never experienced any problems with that, either.
3.) There also is a sticker about fuel requirement (95 octane minimum). If you guys run it on 87 octane regular, you keep the engine knocking under load and it will overheat.
4.) About the radio reception I can only guess. If it´s the original VW unit, I think RDS might still be tuned to European signal standards. With the genuine Delco radio in my Chevy PU I have the same problem here in Germany, RDS doesn´t react und I have to retune the thing every 10 miles I drive.
Bottomline: I think your owner´s manuals and VW of America´s dealership urgently needs to be updated.
To cut to the chase, while I like to joke that VW messed up royal and actually gave me one of the better ones, (judging by almost literally flawless operation in almost 100,000 miles) the unvarnished truth; the one I got is more than likely one of the most AVERAGE (at best) in the statistical population. So while I knew that in the population (New Beetle, Jetta) I stood a higher CHANCE (keyed by the almost massive negative sentiment) of getting a lemon, the odds were really against that happening.
I also noted that for the money, the quality was pretty good. Did I NEED the quality boost with the attendant BOOST in $'s, for the intended purpose/s? Emphatically NO! So that triggered a more in depth analysis. The bottom line is to B/E against a Honda Civic, the metric became a willingness to keep the Jetta a min of 400k. So now that sets up a very high standard and not only does the Jetta project to do 400k, but 1M is actually do able.
I also knew that VW actually lost (BIG) money in the year I bought my TDI. I saw this as a willingness and commitment to the products in the USA market. I also got it at $250 above invoice, and the currency factor was not disadvantageous to the US market at the time. Projected resale value was on par with the Civic (aka, VERY good) It has since greatly exceeded the resale expectations.
To address the poor dealership support and attitude, I also checked out the ones that I was most likely going to take the vehicle. I also knew that I just had to get over the 4 year/50k mile warranty period. Again since I had projected 23-25k per year, that would happen in app 2 years. If things are going to fail, they usually fail pretty early in the game, so I was fairly confident that was NOT going to occur. If it did, the vehicle could camp at the dealers' and get all new parts, for all I cared. So I expected a certain amount of new car adjustment. Indeed I got NONE. I did insist on a less than 1 year/12k alignment check (as most times new cars' alignment is slightly to wildly off). They did check it and it WAS in perfect alignment.
The poor dealer support and attitude further triggered a hunt for independent dealer's and for some reason the TDIClub.com got on the radar. So now I have identified and checked out 2 very good independent shops and timing belt gurus have come to cities near me (GTG's or get togethers). Another serendipitous development; the dealer closest to me was bought out and appears to be much more on the ball.
I live in one of the "Yuppie" saturated areas and the idea of any of them willingly driving the VW is abhorrent - too working class for them. As for quality, Yuppies can sometimes spell it, but that is as far as it goes.
Reliability notwithstanding; I like the way they drive and handle for the most part.
They sort of fill an upscale yet quirky niche. Since the Passat gets up into the mid-30's with all the add-ons, they are certainly not for the budget minded.
Many of the ethnic Mexicans that I work with view VWs with a much more European mind set- reliable, people movers and are proud of the manufacturing that is done in Mexico.
I will never forget the trips to the dealer when it was under warranty. From the waiting room or check out counter on nearly every trip you could hear a customer arguing or fighting with the service people about poor service, their Porche not working properly or problems with their Audi that were not fixed. Its that memory and the scenes that I have never seen or heard from any US Made Vehicle since and its now been 26 years. That was my ONLY experience with "foreign made" vehicles even though it was made in the USA.. or at least put together from German Parts..
That's probably not fair of me but even within the past few months a mechanic told me to stay away from VW's..
Now if they would offer a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty I might think a little differently.. But the warranty on the diesel engine is about 40,000 miles less than on the American diesel trucks. That skimpy warranty on a diesel engine made me remembe back to my ownership of a VW..
Apparently they don't think much of their diesel engine either if they will only warranty it for 60,000 ( I think that's correct or close at least).
Anyway just my 2 cents worth
NO! I beg to differ. I think you are confusing the current 320CDI inline-6 with the upcoming V6 BlueTec. Entirely different animals!
TagMan
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
No worries. The E320 BlueTec is the only one in actual production, but even that is not available in California until the urea injection is added... which is the likely reason that there is limited use of BlueTec at this point.
When BlueTec is compliant in all 50 states, we'll see a major rollout. I expect late in '08, as '09 models, the SUVs and the E-Class at a minimum will be equipped with BlueTec engines. At least I hope so!
TagMan
For me, the TDI motor (design life of 25,000 hours) in a more durable frame, is the major topic.
Sachs makes the strut and shock combination and it is actually VERY well made. Sachs made shocks are standard equipment on the Corvette and in particular the Z06. If mine do not leak, they will probably be good to go to 200k. The weak links are two sub parts in non renewable shock/struts are the seals and the (usually non synthetic) shock oil. If they were rebuildable (longer durability obviously) it would be just another maintenance item to renew and adjust: among others, the seals and shock oil.
I do think that by 2003 there was a marked improvement via a constant improvement concept. Be that as it may, it remains to be seen if they can constantly improve upon constant improvement.
If I could get 30-50 mpg in my Toyota Landcruisers, I probably would not be talking about VW's
It probably needs to be said that even with 15 mpg, depending of course on various factors, it makes almost no sense to buy a new car with attending payments vs keeping an owned Toyota Landcruiser.
1) You'll frequently hear $800 to $1,000 for a timing belt/water pump/tensioner service at US VW dealers. Everything I've heard here seems to say the job is considerably longer than 90 minutes, but that's all hearsay since I haven't had the job done yet (planning for at 60K miles since I'm terrified of it breaking).
2) Oil Sticker - not on US models, or at least not on my 1.8T gas model and others that I looked at when I purchased. VWoA mandates a 5,000 mile OCI if the owner wants to keep the sludge warranty in play. If you rolled into a US dealer with 18,000 miles between oil changes, the dealer would kill your warranty. Don't your VWs come with long-life oil and oil change monitors? Ours do not.
3) European and North American octane ratings differ. Europe uses the RON method of measuring it while here we use the (R+M)/2 or AKI method. As best as I can figure, European 95 RON octane is more or less equivalent to 91 AKI octane. In many US locations, the highest octane available is 91 AKI (your 95). I'm lucky in that my area still has 93 AKI octane which I would guess is about 98 RON or so in Europe. 87 AKI octane is equivalent to your 91 RON. BTW, the owner's manual recommends 91 AKI, but does not mandate it. The book says something along the lines of "use 91 octane for maximum performance and economy."
4) Radio reception issues - the story I get is that the gasket at the roof mounted antenna (I'm talking about the B5.5 as Passat owners here call it; you might know it better as the 3B model) deteriorates and leaks, killing the amplified antenna. Usually AM goes first, but FM can be affected as well. While we have RDS in the US, the service doesn't relay you from station to station while you travel. We don't have a national radio network that deliver the same programming nationally such as the BBC's Radio 1, 2, etc. Quite a few years of VWs used Delphi-sourced radios in the US market to meet the requirements of the settlement of the Ignacio Lopez industrial espionage (to buy US$1B in auto parts from GM over 7 years). They also used GM-sourced telematics.
Finally, the current thought is that VWoA stretched the service intervals on the timing belt in order to be able to argue their owner/service costs were in line with the competition.
I was in Houston yesterday, man I am glad I don't have to live with your traffic.
Diesel or no diesel, I would be ready to ride a bike.
Amen.
TagMan
Currently, the available diesel in the US sans CARB states are the Jeep Gran Cherokee, Mercedes E, M, G, and R class. There are domestic pickups with diesels but they are a 8000 option and they dont get great mileage.
We are waiting for a small SUV like the X3 or CRV with a diesel engine.
Is it going to be a run to the auto parts store, or will it be a dealer install only?
I have heard various ideas but it is not a frequent maintenance, I would estimate at the 30k or 60k services.
Of course it is another thing you are beholden to the dealer for. Though I have to admit I'm not sure how many folks would do their own work on a Benz.
I am eagerly anticipating the diesel options available to the rest of the world.
The stuff we are talking about is a 32,5% solution of urea in water, officially called "AdBlue". Urea itself is a non-toxic, non-hazardous crystalline substance (looks like fine sugar) and is also used for a lot of other purposes, e.g. as a component of fertilizers and for cosmetical products.
When the "AdBlue" solution is injected into the hot catalyst, it cracks up to some unimportant compounds and ammonia. Ammonia reacts with oxides of nitrogen and splits them up into harmless water and pure nitrogen.
At early experimental stages of this SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) technology, straight ammonia was given to ignite the chemical reaction, but for use in vehicles this is too dangerous. As you may know, ammonia is highly toxic and severely harms your loungs when inhalated.
In the future you will find "AdBlue" at your gasstation, available in canisters or right from the pump. You can fill it up as easy as your washer-fluid.
The tank size depends on the car, I figure 1-2 gals on a normal passenger vehicle. "AdBlue" consumption is related to diesel consumption (approx. 5%).
Since 2005 we have an increasing number of BlueTec equipped heavy trucks on our roads and along the major autobahn routes "AdBlue" is on stock at every service station. The price here currently is about 0.70 Euros per liter (USD 3.45 per gallon), but the extra costs are equalized by the up to 6% better fuel economy BlueTec equipped engines can provide, due to possible higher combustion temperatures.
Since ammonia consists of nitrogen and hydrogen (NH-3) it can also be produced in the catalyst itself by trapping the right amounts of NOx and hydro-carbons from the exhaust in a first step and let it react with the superfluous oxides of nitrogen in a second. This is done in the two-stage SCR catalysts that Volkswagen and Honda will use on their small 4-cylinder diesels. For engines of larger displacement this is not functional, because these two chemical reactions take too much time to get the higher and faster flow of exhaust handled.
And small diesels like VW and Honda won't need to actually use AdBlue as they will create their own ammonia out of their exhaust gases? Very cool!
Fuel Offensive
Excerpt:
Chrysler Group launched a fuel efficiency "offensive" today that includes a move into mild hybrids and wider use of diesel engines.
Chrysler will also expand the number of vehicles offering its two-mode hybrid system, which will be for sale next year, overhaul all of its V-6, V-8 and Hemi engines and improve efficiency in every segment.
Chrysler and Dodge minivans and the company's midsize cars and trucks might also get a small, four-cylinder diesel engine the company is considering importing from Europe.
No dates are mentioned in the article.