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Comments
No... that's a big misunderstanding. Here's why... At the retail level those facilities that choose to carry ULSD must meet 15 ppm sulfur specification by 10/15/06, BUT is isn't until 12/01/10 that the RETAIL of all highway diesel must be ULSD.
As you will see from the link, ULSD production and retail requirements are not the same, and that is where much of the confusion has come from.
Here's the link that indicates and explains the timeline:
link title
Notice that in California, we have already reached the retail timeline requirement of 9/01/06.
That's why here in California we are already 100% ULSD at the retail level and the rest of the country can take as long as 12/01/2010!!
But, as I posted before, the national transition will naturally ramp up before the final deadline.
Hope that helps,
TagMan
You know how those corporate statements work out.
Translated... the Ridgeline will be one of the first models to get a diesel engine.
Seriously, though, who knows?
TagMan
LOL. I hear ya.
TagMan
Problem is the car rags always talk about HP and many people read them.
Heck yeah... our whole history of cars was without regard to waste of fuel. And bigger was better... the full-sized cars and trucks and the Chevy Suburban. Speed is king, too. It's Indy, Nascar, muscle cars, rice rockets......... isn't the Corvette still an American icon?
Good 0-60 is strong and powerful. Good MPG is weak. THAT's the perception, isn't it?
TagMan
So cold isn't an issue.
Does any website list the temps where the diesel begins to gel or do they add something like kerosene in the winter to keep it from gelling?
link title
I mean I don´t know much about Honda and their marketing strategies, still you are the ultimate Honda expert.
Did you experience them change their minds every couple of weeks?
John
I know they'd have to cut it with something. They use MTBE in the winter for gas so I'd expect diesel to have something similar. But on those extra freezing nights I guess you have to plug it in.
I'm confused about 2.2L being big? I have a 2.5L diesel in my truck. I think a 2.2 or a 2.4 would be really good in an Accord. of course what Hyundai did was put the 1.5L CRDi from the Matrix (yes here the Matrix is a Hyundai) and stuffed it into a Getz! Now that gives you performance and economy! The Matrix is huge compared to the Getz which is about the size of an old Geo Metro!
I have a link for it.
http://philippines.hyundai-motor.com/
look up Getz or Matrix The Getz is tiny!
The Matrix is pretty good sized. My friend owns one. I hated the rubber band feel to the engine. It was like stretching out an elastic band and then letting it go. That was how it accelerated. quirky and kinda scary, but awesome economy!
Notchy shifter on the Matrix. But the price was cheap enough. It works out to about 81HP. but it's a 1.5L in a car that's pretty light.
... I believe a large percentage of Kero is considered Diesel # 1. Leading many to believe it's better than good ol # 2 fuel oil. # 1 generally has less BTU's than # 2.
... It's my perception/opinion that there is a general trend to make the latest four cylinder engines (gas and Diesel) 2 liters and under.
... A plug in is almost standard in Canada.
I thought MTBE was outlawed after they discovered its toxicity to the ground water was uncontrollable.
TagMan
The irony of it is that it was intended to help clean the air, but it turned out to be incredibly dangerous to ground drinking water.
I understand that producers had intended to stop using it after the Summer of '06.
TagMan
... I believe a large percentage of Kero is considered Diesel # 1. Leading many to believe it's better than good ol # 2 fuel oil. # 1 generally has less BTU's than # 2.
... It's my perception/opinion that there is a general trend to make the latest four cylinder engines (gas and Diesel) 2 liters and under.
... A plug in is almost standard in Canada.
Thanks for all that info. I know they add something to the gas in New Hampshire in the winter months and fuel economy drops as a result. maybe it's ethanol? I have no idea what they add. I haven't been in the US for over 4 years now. I will be heading back in 2008 at some point tho.
I've seen filling stations where they have a separate pump for kerosene. A company I used to work for would fill 5 gallon containers of it as a cleaner for various materials.
Kerosene really cuts through Cosmoline for example.
The last time I was on the US Mainland it was on the stickers for the pumps. I KNOW they add something to the gas in the winter. But I haven't been to the US in a long while. I go back in 2008. No idea what they are doing now with gas as i don't see it everyday.
Thanks Roland, I knew they added something for the winter. It really kills fuel economy tho.
I don't live in Florida any more but I doubt they use it there. I never heard about it if they did.
To the best of my knowledge, here in California ethanol is now used seasonally in larger amounts instead of MTBE.
TagMan
The use of (in the past MTBE) ethanol is both an interesting oxymoron and obstacle to the so-called "increasing the fuel mileage" legislative efforts. Both have shown to be up to 20% MORE fuel consumptive on most of the levels one wishes to evaluate it. So in the case of E85, so called flex fuel products, it is (EPA)as high as -25%
To put it in context, the real growth will be a LOT more technical. Actually it is control-a-cratic in nature. Since buying a new or even used car is a large to HUGE committment for the overwhelming majority of folks (not to mention a HUGE risk and extra expense for OEM's), I would look to the yearly new car rates and yearly salvage rates, which either by coincidence or design are fairly the same at 7%. (using the 235.4 M passenger vehicle fleet as a boundary) So conceptually, per year, a percentage of (that) percentage. So for example, to get a rough ideal say VW puts out 200,000 vehicle for sale in the US with 4% (historical) being diesel. That is 8,000 vehicles/235.4 M = .00034% per oem, for a zzzzzzzzzzzzzz...% yearly gain. So indeed one just needs to add up the oem diesel models and numbers to get the overall numbers and %'s. Another modifying variable is the average age of the fleet at between 7.5 to 8.5 years. SUV's and PU sectors having predictably the higher average age.
Keep in mind the big three have been selling Diesel models in the rarified 250/2500/350/3500 categories for literally years. This is reflected in the less than 3% diesel passenger vehicle fleet population.
You have to wonder what CARB will do when the 2008 VW TDIs are cleaner than the average car on the road. Oh, good idea tack on another few cents of tax to diesel like they did a few years ago. Making diesel more expensive than gas.
..."You have to wonder what CARB will do when the 2008 VW TDIs are cleaner than the average car on the road. Oh, good idea tack on another few cents of tax to diesel like they did a few years ago. Making diesel more expensive than gas." ...
Indeed because taxation is the so called give back for necessary but less than pristine behavior, the logic would dictate LESS taxation for diesel and more taxation for unleaded regular!!
The idea behind MTBE and ethanol additives has little to do with mpg or fuel efficiency... the original goal, as I understand it, was to seasonally adjust for air quality.... but then as a side effect, there are the other negatives.
TagMan
I think you mean the other way around.
Higher mpg (less gas burned) would yield LESS tax revenues, and lower mpg (more gas burned) would yield MORE tax revenues.
TagMan
February 2006
After nearly a decade of complaints and lawsuits from California political leaders and environmental groups, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency on Wednesday revoked a long-standing mandate that oil refiners put additives like ethanol into their clean-burning gasoline.
"This is great news for California,'' said San Francisco Democrat Sen. Dianne Feinstein, who has led the battle with the EPA in trying to get rid of the requirement in California. "The announcement means that California refiners will finally be allowed to make gasoline that is cleaner burning than what they're making today."
Refiners and their representatives said Wednesday that they don't yet know how much they will reduce the use of ethanol, but state air-quality officials would like to see a reduction and have long argued that the use of ethanol as a gas additive during the summer can contribute to ozone levels.
The passage of the federal Energy Policy Act of 2005 removed the requirement, and the new regulations released Wednesday by the EPA put in place the program to remove the additive requirement. The decision will go into effect in California 60 days after they are published in the Federal Register this summer.
Since 1999, the state has opposed a mandatory use of an oxygen-boosting additive, saying that refiners could meet state standards for reformulated gas without an additive. By then, they knew that the MTBE used by refiners was a foul-tasting ether that leaked from underground tanks and contaminated drinking water and other water supplies in California and all over the country.
The state appealed to the EPA to issue a waiver to the requirement, arguing in high-level letters from Feinstein, two governors and the state Air Resources Board and, later, in lawsuits. The EPA was firm in its insistence to keep the mandate.
California was among the first states to ban MTBE in 2004 under an order by Gov. Gray Davis. Since then, about two dozen states have banned MTBE, a petroleum refining byproduct.
In 2005, California refiners used an estimated 900 million gallons of ethanol and blended it at 5.7 percent of the volume into clean-burning gas.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/02/16/BAG04H9IQG1.DTL
Ethanol is cutting the gasoline and should make it a LOT cheaper but I bet it doesn't.
Do they require ethanol to be listed on the pumps? I would not want to run ethanol in my engine. The consumers should know and be able to avoid stations that cut the quality of their gas with ethanol!
And as a follow on to your quote: and don't forget the changes!!??
So as a sort of legislative rehab, we will have the following:
1. unleaded regular with MTBE (to sunset)
2. unleaded regular with ethanol (to sunset)
3. unleaded regular without ethanol (higher to highest priced of course,
4. unleaded regular with high sulfur (30 ppm)
5. unleaded regular with low sulfur (less than 30 ppm)
6. unleaded regular with no sulfur (definition should be self evident)
7. E85
8. winterized versions of the above
9. regional versions of the above
10. and for your driving pleasure: dont forget the mid and premium grades with the winterized and regional versions
11. Paris Hilton will have her designer unleaded regular right next to Willie's bio and #2 diesels.
ULSD, please... fill 'er up!
TagMan
I will post the actual figures when I refill but it's looking like a solid 3 mpg better with biodiesel and it's cheaper than the regular diesel!
Sorry I'm not in the US, but I thought it might be good to know biodiesel is very efficient, and how much more it is.
Yes, definately.
Hey... you bring up a really good point. Do you think there actually might be any biodiesel or other alternative fuels that would be "approved" by the manufacturers? I'm kind of skeptical about that, thinking that only ULSD would be approved.
I wonder what the owners manuals say in the current latest CDI Mercedes, just for example.
TagMan
I ran LSD (up to 500 ppm) on an engine designed for ULSD and was surprised at almost no change in mpg, despite a lower BTU rating for ULSD.
Curious... aren't engines that require ULSD outfitted with certain emissions equipment that LSD can ruin?
TagMan
This is all city driving with NO highway at all. I have a bit left and don't drive much lately. When my wife drives and she is still learning she's not smooth so the economy drops off the chart. She hasn't driven at all on this tank, or maybe she has we were doing hill starts. But might have been before I filled it up.
Diesel just went up to about $3.30 a gallon a huge increase but it was about $3 a gallon. When i first moved here a bit over 4 years ago diesel was $1.29 a gallon or less in some places.
But I've very careful about keeping track of my economy in a few days I'll report what it gets compared to regular diesel. Oh and here we have high sulphur diesel, nasty stuff! The biodiesel is nice tho.
So, sounds like the fuel requirement is normally dispensed ULSD, unless there is an "authorized" substitute.
TagMan
TagMan
... Before anyone says this is off topic, don't be too surprised that some major chem/petrochemical company comes up with an oxygenate for good ol #2 fuel oil.
... Before MTBE there was propylene oxide. It was used by many racers untill EPA listed it as a carcinogen then many racing groups outright banned it. Untill then it was somewhat ignored. My opinion, from day one, on the MTBE, is that the only reason, it is not listed, as a carcinogen, is that, it has not been in the public domain, all that much.