Diesels in the News

tomcat63

If you use some aftershave lotion, I bet you have that stuff in your face everyday....!

blufz1

Don't use no after shave lotion...you think I want fertilizer on my face?

jlbl

Not to mention that urea is in the urine, and urine has been used by the mankind to avoid skin fissures (for instance, in the hands) during freezing weather before cosmetics came to be 'at hand'.

So, by using diesel engines with catalytic filters, we will be giving back to the atmosphere some good gas like inert nitrogen. Not bad.

Jose

tomcat63

Yes, it´s pretty exciting chemistry...!
Actually those catalysts are no filters, they indeed are converters.
A particulate trap you can call a filter, but that´s a completely different story.

bristol2

I think this is a pretty big statement coming from the Cerberus owned Chrysler!

I have to admit that the line 'everything new at once' coming from Chrysler should be read as code for 'everything breaking at once', but good for them to actually take dynamic action (or at least appearing to).
This should just increase pressure on GM and Ford to come to the diesel party we are planning for 2009!

houdini1

No urine on my hands. I'm sticking to axle grease!!

tomcat63

...recently hear of jpmeir, maybe in one of the other forums?
I´m just a little bit concerned, since during the last two weeks there have been horrible news from Iraq again about hundreds of kills (with US soldiers being involved) by suicide bombing and some local riots.

jlbl

:P

jlbl

Right! I was quite lousy calling that converter a filter.

Regards,
Jose

roland3

... To start in the States, this is most likely to be a refill @ the dealer. I guess that's what it takes to get rid of EGR, since it's just about impossible for a bureacracy to admit they need an update.

derrelhgreen

" I believe the DC system uses about 3 percent urea to fuel use "

That statement can't be right.

Were that true, the tank would have to be bigger than what I have heard in order to get any kind of mileage between services.

tomcat63

Sorry man, but do you go to the dealer´s to have your car refueled, the tire pressure checked or whenever your washer-fluid needs to be topped up?
I think the average American car-driver should be able to do stuff like this himself, so there should be no problem to refill the "AdBlue" tank, either.

ruking1

Folks might want to do a google on Corning, diesel filtration for the real techno skinny!! Upstate NY and the demo senators are working behind the scenes to bring this tech and investments to the fore.

roland3

... Somebody got on here, that seems to know, and said it's closer to five percent. If DC puts a little bigger adblue tank than the Euro (more inferstructure there)model, it will be quite a distance between refills and I think many will opt for the dealer service. I want to see some specs from the new Chevy hundred million dollar Tonawanda engine.

gagrice

How much AdBlue will I use?

As a rough rule, average AdBlue consumption will be about 5% of diesel use. Therefore for motorway driving you will use about 1.5 litres per 100 km.

normally costs about half of the price of diesel. In most driving conditions, the cost of AdBlue will be more than offset by savings on diesel fuel consumption.

http://www.findadblue.com/default.aspx?tab=IN&lan=ENG

subden

Just to clairfy, the 2007 ML320 CDI is most definitely a V6 and not an inline 6. However, it is not legal in all states. Next year when they add the urea injection it will be 50 state legal.

tomcat63

Basically right, but mathematically not correct.
For instance take the Mercedes E 320CDI BlueTec. Under European driving conditions it has a real life diesel consumption of 8 liters/100 km (equivalent to 30 miles per gallon). 5% of 8 liters of diesel means a 0.4 liter consumption of AdBlue per 100 km (equivalent to 600 mpg).
I don´t know what OCIs are mandated for this car by DC of America. If they also have this wasteful and ridiculous 5,000 mile interval as VW, you´d need at least a 8.5 gallon AdBlue tank to get a refill at the same time with your scheduled oil change.
8.5 gallons, quite a bulky thing...!

tomcat63

Well, found out now that the 1.5 liter/100 km AdBlue consumption is reffering to heavy trucks of course.
They have space enough to carry an additional 25 gallon tank around...

tagman

Yes... you are correct. Good work! The CDI is now the V6, and the BlueTec final version (with the urea system) becomes 50-state compliant.

gagrice

I think the deal I posted was for big trucks etc. It did not mention any cars or SUVs.

tomcat63

Yes, this is a website for truckdrivers since there are many BlueTec trucks on the roads in Europe meanwhile.
Still, all the (very good) information provided is also valid for any other BlueTec car (apart from the estimated overall AdBlue consumption). It´s of course obvious, that a big 40-ton truck burning some 30 liters of diesel per 100 km needs more of that stuff...!

roland3

... Allright, let's have a pool of the 320 Blue Tec Mercedes, Adblue tank size (States edition). My guess: 8 gallons.

kyfdx

Holy cow!! I can't imagine an 8 gallon tank for a fuel additive in a mid-size passenger car..

This will really turn a lot of people off of those diesels..

jkinzel

3 gallons

tomcat63

I get the impression you are really horrified by the thought you might spill some AdBlue when topping it up yourself and you could get into contact with it.
Believe me, there is loads of stuff you can buy at your gasstation being way more harmful to your health, as e.g. fuel, engine oil, antifreeze or a sixpack of Budweiser....

tomcat63

By the way, Audi and Volkswagen will use exactly the same system on their V6 diesel powered Q7 and Touareg.

roland3

... There will have to be some concession in tank size untill the infrastructure is setup. Still glad German big three got rid of EGR; however I want regs that allow a minor increse in NOx, in exchange for less greenhouse gases. In plain words: rewards for better miles per gallon.

qbrozen

darn. that was gonna be my guess.

ok... 3.5

;b

hypnosis44

The point may be that having to make an extra step to drive a diesel in no way increases the likelihood of increasing the number of those willing to make the change to diesel.

ruking1

Indeed overall it may actually decrease the likelihood of those that would consider switching to diesel to... NOT switch. This truly would be one of the points of this whole regulatory exercise.

qbrozen

I disagree. I think anyone that is deterred by it was just looking for an excuse anyway.

The fact that I might have to spend 5 minutes to fill a tank every couple of months is well worth the 10 less gas station stops I'd have to make.

ruking1

Mathmatically you would lose at this juncture!

When I got my 2003 TDI, just the (gross) price of diesel vs unleaded regular was enough to cause most even intelligent folks to by-pass diesel. The examples are almost laughable, if not for the fact, they were/are a reflection of reality.

Here is an REAL life example;

2003 VW TDI gets 42/49 diesel @ 2.65 per gal

2003 VW 2.0/1.8T gets 24/31 unleaded regular at 2.45 per gal.

Almost 96% of VW buyers said (voted with wallets) diesel was more expensive!!!!!??????

qbrozen

I didn't do the exact math, no, but I don't believe I "lose." I didn't feel it was necessary, as my point is pretty obvious. Even 3 gas station fillups is easily worth the time to fill a few gallon adblue tank. would you mind sharing why you disagree? Or would you rather stick with the "me right, you wrong" argument?

Each gas station stop takes me about 5-7 minutes on average.

roland3

... What we NEED is a way to upsize the Honda and VW system or a concession from the reg bodies so that we can stop CONTAMINATING our combustion chambers and atmosphere. The main problem might be that NOx can be seen but GHG can not. These new engines are so clean compared to the big problem creators of the Sixties and Seventies that the latest NOx regs create more of a problem than they solve. Maybe the 100 million dollar, next gen Duramax can be the answer. I don't know if the new 1.9 Saab has the dual converter system. Should be. Small enough engine.

ruking1

As diesel owners dealing with ad blue might be a no brainer action, but given the over 97% of the passenger vehicle fleet being gasser, the regulatory bodies know that preaching to the already converted will not appreciably bring up the diesel %. So if most folks in 2003 would deem diesel more expensive, what has happened in 2007? Refresher courses in math????

Even as a diesel owner, I would carefully consider the (still forward) extra adblue step!!!!

qbrozen

wait a sec. you are switching gears here.

First, though, thanks for editing your original post to include some data. Obviously, my response regarding "me right, you wrong" was written previous to your edit.

Anyway, we were talking about the extra step of adding a chemical, NOT pricing. My argument is purely about the extra step, as it is in response to the comment that this extra step would keep people away. My argument, therefore, is that, even with the extra step, I still would save quite a bit of time by visiting the gas station fewer times in a given period.

NOW, as far as pricing, that's certainly been discussed here on the diesel boards again and again and again.

So if most folks in 2003 would deem diesel more expensive, what has happened in 2007?
Prices fluctuate. My local station has both regular gas and diesel at $2.69 today.

BUT, even if that weren't the case, the Jetta comparison is not the only one out there. I present the Benz as the comparison. The E350 requires premium and achieves 26 mpg on the highway, vs the E320's 35 highway.

kyfdx

I think the Extra Step thing is a big deal... Especially if other diesels don't require it.

Converting non-enthusiasts to diesel will be a tough row to hoe, already.. Having to overcome another objection will just add to the problem.

I wouldn't have a problem with it, but if it were my wife making the decision... you could forget it.

bristol2

I agree the extra step is a big dis-incentive but I think the issue is being over-stated.

The only maker that is planning on bringing urea-added diesel is MB. VW, Honda, BMW don't plan on urea-additives. If they bring engines to market that don't require additive, it won't take MB long to get some kind of licensing done (or figure out for themselves) to avoid the urea-additive.

ruking1

Indeed the future will really be with NON additives !!! There it is, as sound bite able as it gets! If you care to google the Corning diesel filtration web site, it might explain a few things.

..."BUT, even if that weren't the case, the Jetta comparison is not the only one out there. I present the Benz as the comparison. The E350 requires premium and achieves 26 mpg on the highway, vs the E320's 35 highway."...

Thanks for making my case

So I dont unnecessarily add another post, the E320 requires premium also. So assuming 35 mpg/3.57 per gal corner store= that is .102 cents per mile driven. The diesel version gets 40/3.05 per gal= .07625 cents per mile driven. I rest my case. But if you need me to state the obvious....

So even if the E320 requires unleaded regular (which again it does not), even at 3.19 per gal/35 mpg = .091 cents per mile driven.

qbrozen

exactly. I mean, obviously, if 2 cars are identical in every way, but one offers no extra step ... well, it doesn't take an automotive engineer to figure out which would be an easier sell.

qbrozen

?????

I point out a vehicle that gets 35% better mileage on cheaper fuel and you think that makes your case that it is not a more economical vehicle??
Are you even reading these posts??

bristol2

I'm pretty sure you guys are actually agreeing with each other.

ruking1

"exactly. I mean, obviously, if 2 cars are identical in every way, but one offers no extra step ... well, it doesn't take an automotive engineer to figure out which would be an easier sell. "

I am glad you agree with me, even as you protest that you do not.

tagman

This whole argument about the need to add some solution to the vehicle several times a year is way out of perspective. to put this in perspective, consider the steps a plug-in hybrid will mandate... every night having to plug it in! And then every morning unplugging it! THAT as opposed to a procedure as easy as filling windshield washer fluid only several times an entire year! And most of the time it could be done by the dealer anyway!

Gimmee a break! There is no way that this is a big issue. And I guarantee that most folks interested in acquiring the diesel variant of a model would not let that minor and infrequent "extra step" stand in the way of buying it.

Those diesel models that will be available without the requirement of the urea solution will be hyped by the car salesman as having a major difference and advantage... you can bet on it! When in all truth, it is a minor and infrequent event.

Would it be nicer if it didn't need the solution added? Of course! But how far out of perspective can this get??!!

All too much about much too little. As great as these diesels will be, there are always those that will complain and try to tell the rest of us that they're not good enough for one reason or another.

TagMan

ruking1

My take is if you look at the Euro markets that have 50% diesel passenger vehicle fleet and GROWING, it is no big deal, just another day. Since we are looking at the US market where the (diesel) passenger vehicle fleet is 3% and LESS, in the worst cases it will be very dear and costly. But since it will be on the MB line, most folks who buy them new really will just bring it into the dealer when the lamps indicate. I sometimes smile when I think of some folks who consider trading in or selling their MB's, etc., just because an oil change is indicated at the 10,000 mile mark!

The thing I have been noticing in a scant 3/4 years are more fuel stations carrying #2 diesel.

tagman

The thing I have been noticing in a scant 3/4 years are more fuel stations carrying #2 diesel.

Yes.

ULSD will be more widely available nationwide over the next couple of years.

TagMan

blufz1

Gimmee a brake!!!! Occam's Razor. The most simple solution is usually the correct solution. No one wants to take time to put waste in thier car no matter the color! Better buy some Honda stock!

tomcat63

I personally didn´t look at it from this point of view yet, but you probably are right. The matter turns out to be about simple convenience and the "Extra Step" could be a dis-incentive, especially for the American market.
Convenience meanwhile seems to be one of the main points of consideration when buying a car...
On the other hand we have to face the fact, that BlueTec/AdBlue technology is the most efficient and functional pollution treatment for large diesel engines currently available. In contradiction to what you stated, Audi and Volkswagen made an agreement with DC during LA Autoshow last year about a BlueTec partnership. Even Honda and Nissan are interested in a cooperation.
Certainly engineers will carry on torturing their brains to find a better (non-additive) way, but if you are only heading for the ultimate perfect solution, how long do you want to wait?
Volkswagen Touareg TDI and Audi Q7 TDI coming to US next year will most definetly use Adblue. Surprisingly and funny enough I found an article at Audiworld.com (posted below):

...The "AdBlue" reducing agent is routinely topped up at the workshop each time the vehicle is serviced, without the customer having to lift a finger. Audi ensures that there is sufficient "AdBlue" to safely cover the distances between services...

Isn´t this convenient...? After having done the 5% consumption maths, this will either imply a rip-off with ridiculously short service intervals (they normally have 18,750 mls intervals) or you get a free trailer for the 30 gallon tank...

link title

ruking1

Your comment really conceals the rest of the iceberg below. While it might be commonly known on a board like this, it is not commonly known among the greater (gasser) public that diesel motors can and have successfully been converted to run on cooking oil. You can use oil before you use the oil to cook; i.e., fried chicken. You can THEN process (convert to bio diesel) the used fried chicken oil (when no longer "good") and STILL fill your tank!!! Try that with your unleaded regular!!??(metaphorically, boys and girls, metaphorically. (really, do NOT try this at home, it is dangerous, poisonous and you CAN DIE and injure other people!! )

tomcat63

Honda-Man - we all know for sure you rather prefer wasting your time with weekly oilchanges on your lawnmower...!