Diesels in the News

roland3

... You might want to look at Geo2Technologies (a start-up near Boston) new ceramic invention for particulate traps. It has quite a bit less restriction than current designs.

ruking1

..."GEO2 does not mass-manufacture its own products"...

By their own admission, they are not yet part of any solution.

..."Companies in these markets and their suppliers are struggling to find cost-effective solutions to meet the new EPA and EURO diesel regulations. For many of the applications, current products have high levels of customer dissatisfaction stemming from their high backpressure, high costs, relatively slow regeneration and supply problems. The GEO2 substrate is particularly well-suited to these applications because of its thermal properties, resistance to corrosion by ash and exhaust constituents, efficient filtration, durability and random matrix characteristics—both for DPF and DOC applications."...

http://www.geo2tech.com/comp.html

Why? Are they a deep pockets target? Or a good short?

Great place to take a chance if one is a (IP) patent or licensing attorney?

My take is they are in a more "rubber meets the road R & D struggle" to patent and license a scale able, cheaper per unit cost solution process. So for example Corning would license and pay royalties to a company like this?

These folks sound like they are being backed by VC money probably up the street, Sand Hill Road folks. Palo Alto, CA, )

Not a bad thing, it just shows the diesel phenon is well on its way to 15% of the passenger vehicle fleet population probably in 10-15 years.

gogogodzilla

Right...

Come back when you have the solution that'll make 'mass transit' available whenever the driver wants it, wherever the driver wants it, and able to tote all the stuff that the driver wants to tote. (and cheaper than a car, too)

Till then, the costs outweigh the benefit.

:shades:

fenris2

Hmm, but there all sorts of constraints on refining right now which partially distort/modify (choose your word) the supply demand of diesel by itself. For one thing, diesel is a co-product (best word I can think of) of gas prodution in most refineries here in the US, as are many other products. And the percentages of RUG or diesel can not be changed that much afiak. As someone has stated GTL would quite possibly change that equation but for now that is not the case.

None the less, pricing of fuels is generally set by its' BTU, or so choose the refiners. Diesel has more BTU per gallon, so its worth more, and so that is how its priced.

However, the diferences in deliviery schedules, frequency/volume, makeup, and seasonal demand all play a big part in diesel costs versus RUG. And the two do not shift in very close concert (gas is much more frequent) so its even possible to find diesel cheaper than gas for a time.

ruking1

I would agree, but actually to comply with the "Disabilities Act" or whatever it is called in PC speak, the local T/A's do have limousine service!! Our local TA has Ford V8's and Toyota Prius'. Way cool if you ask me!! It is like 2-3 bux to almost anywhere you want to go in the authorized region!! You can call to arrange pick once you are at your destination. The only problem of course is how a normal person can get on the approved access list.

hypnosis44

Again - price is determined by demand and supply, not by costs. No matter how the "constraints" are defined, if and when a sustained demand occurs market forces of supply, demand, and availability of substitution will force the price of diesel upwards to the point of no savings to the consumer. No producer sells at a price that is less than they can get for it at a marginal rate of return.

hypnosis44

The term is the "Americans with Disabilities Act", or ADA for short. It was championed primarily by Vietnam era veterans as well as others. In some cities who establish their own services, all seniors are eligible for it, in others temporarily or permanently disabled who can not otherwise ride the mass transit system are eligible. The federally supported systems will take you out of the region and the network of regional transporters will bring you back. It has given life back to many who were otherwise shut out of the work force as well as out of life in general. There is a strong interface with local mass transit systems, as well as private cab companies who do overflow transport. The tax revenue generated by people who are now working that were previously not working offsets the cost of the operation in addition to the average round trip charge of about four dollars.

ruking1

Now I'd be for mass transit limo service!! 2-4 bux per trip is a good deal!!

hypnosis44

Instant gratification is something most of our parents tried to wean us from as children. They also tried to teach us how to effectively plan our time. Sometimes that did not work. The implicit idea that drivers pay anywhere near the real cost of driving is a myth that is beginning to unravel and will accelerate as social and economic pressures mount. I am still waiting for someone to demonstrate how spending 6000.00 a year on a car and related direct costs that never appreciates in value is cost effective. For those interested in mass transit (a scary thought to those still wedded to instant gratification) some systems do make a profit on a pure accounting basis. On a social cost benefit economic basis it far outweighs any "accountant balance sheet" outcome. Once the "romance" is removed and the true costs are realized, only the increasingly impossible idea of the "right to absolute mobility" at everyone else's cost remains as the opositional argument.

I, and millions more, are currently saving thousands of dollar per year by walking, mass transit, shared ride, and car pooling, even including the occassional cab ride when all else is unavailable - some of these run on diesel. If fares were doubled, or taxes increased I am still money ahead.

hypnosis44

The evolving final standards will ultimately make CARB look moderate by comparison. Other states, as well as at least one Canadian province has adopted CARB. It is a beginning, not an end. Or in Churchill's words after the first allied victory against the [non-permissible content removed]'s in Africa: "It is not the end, nor is it the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning". (Note: No one here is being accused of being a [non-permissible content removed].)

hypnosis44

I guess there is a 50% chance the perps escaped in diesel powered vehicles - that damn diesel stuff!! :P

hypnosis44

"...collectivist propaganda..." and "... deprive individual of choice..."

Many of my associates would find this view of me bemusing given my social and political inclinations.

However, the most centrally controlled, repressively effective, grossly polluting, and most corrosive of individual choice, collectivist totalitarian regime on the planet is currently inches away from becoming The engine of world commerce, including mass producing as many vehicles, mostly for internal consumption, as 24/7 shifts can turn out - some are diesel powered, but most of those appear to be for transport.

Not my idea of a world to live in - I doubt it is yours either.

ruking1

..."I am still waiting for someone to demonstrate how spending 6000.00 a year on a car and related direct costs that never appreciates in value is cost effective."...

..."Again - price is determined by demand and supply, not by costs. No matter how the "constraints" are defined, if and when a sustained demand occurs market forces of supply, demand, and availability of substitution will force the price of diesel upwards to the point of no savings to the consumer. No producer sells at a price that is less than they can get for it at a marginal rate of return."...

Wait no longer!! You want to sound as if this is rocket science!! It is not and has never been! If all of us (could) lived in places like NYC, San Francisco, Boston, (we all can't and more directly most can't AFFORD to and more importantly would probably not want to) you might want to ask how much are the direct taxes and the cost of housing relative to what you are used to paying now!! So if you have to pay 2 to 3 M dollars to live in NYC when you can buy a house somewhere else in the state for 150,000 dollars.... Then of course how many folks do you know that can pay 150,000 cash for a place!!??...let alone a down payment on a 2-3M dollar place? Indeed the rest of NY state probably wishes they could get more of their fair share of the taxation: as NYC is almost all consumptive of already scarce state resources. I think you might live in an idealistic dream world called EASY Street?. Or was that... Too BAD for YOU, I got mine already?

In the context of your idealism, you might want to ask yourself what is the lesson to be learned here by the so called subrprime mess we find ourselves in, when subprime is such a MINOR % and volume of housing loans!!??

In any case, is this the right topic thread for your mass transportation schtick? :lemon: :shades:

KCRam

Back on topic, please.

kcram - Pickups Host

roland3

... I have to disagree with you because, CARB, EPA and EURO have 95 percent of everything they can possibly have in/from an I.C.E. tailpipe, EXCEPT in total carbon output. I look froward to the day when they will have to say, "to ameliorate the carbon problems we have to back off our NOx regs in order to improve economy".

ruking1

It is also commonly known that "OTHER THAN" the passenger vehicle fleet EMITTERS puts out the MAJORITY of MAN made or controlled or what ever is the current PC way of calling it "pollution". Those not only have been exponentially WORSE than passenger vehicle fleet emissions but will continue to get a "FREE" non mitigated PASS !!!

Indeed in a twist of irony, MASS TRANSIT has been and will continue to be among the WORST offenders!! Indeed the diesel passenger vehicle fleet gets its LOADS of BAD press from MASS TRANSIT emitters which continue to put unmitigated emissions into the cities atmospheres!!!!

In literally schizophrenic regulatory logic, unmitigated "OTHER THAN" passenger diesel fleet emissions, i.e., mass transit emissions are reason enough to BAN sales of (for example) new VW TDI's!!! ???? This is indeed bizarre enforcement; bought and paid for by us taxpayers!!

DIESEL Passenger Vehicle Fleet emissions will continue now and into the foreseeable future to be an almost immeasurable and as a result statistically insignificant portion of the TOTAL passenger vehicle fleet emissions .

bpeebles

I am not so sure about that. One reason that mass-tranzit may have this perception is because their equipment lasts a relativly long time. (with proper maintenance) The older equipment does not meet current emmissions standards.

HOWEVER: The new generation of diesel locomotives are touted to consume a gallon of fuel to move a ton of cargo over 400 miles!!! Also, most of the mass-tranzit busses in my area here in Vermont are running on BioDiesel and are touted as being very eco-friendly.

This is Vermont after all - with perhaps the most stringent eco-laws in the USA.... even rain run-off from parkinglots MUST be treated before entering local waterways. Vermont even has air-monitoring stations across the state and the air-quality is announced as part of the weather-report.

Vermont also uses a HUGE fleet of diesel snowplow trucks. These workhorse trucks manage to move huge amounts of snow off of 100s of miles of roads and I never see even a whisp of black smoke from them. (Also, all state vehicles MUST use recycled oil.... its the law.)

Bottom line - it IS possible to have a diesel engine and be eco-friendly.

ruking1

..."I am not so sure about that"...

..."Bottom line - it IS possible to have a diesel engine and be eco-friendly"...

I am sure about it! And yes it is very possible to have a diesel engine and be eco-friendly!! I have pretty much said that it is. European diesel passenger car offerings demonstrate that in spades!!

The real question is why the dirty ones are lumped together with the clean ones and why the dirty ones have been and will in the foreseable future be given the so called "free pass": while the clean ones are banned and have to meet almost draconian standards. If us diesel user types have trouble seeing these types of distinctions, perhaps that is one/another reason why it is almost totally lost on the gasser users who still cling to the "dirty" diesel notion.

roland3

... If we are talking, stop and go city bus, it's just about impossible to beat some type of an electric or hybrid drive vehicle. With all the braking, the re-gen systems save enormus amounts of energy. The reduction in brake dust is also a plus.

KCRam

...so that you can argue something, make sure I haven't asked for off-topic matter to cease... see #4385.
Enough mass transit posts.

kcram - Pickups Host

bhill2

Living in a CARB state, and therefore having no direct access to the emissions level of diesel autos, I would appreciate it if someone could post the measured levels of the three regulated pollutants, HC, CO, and NOx, for a diesel car vs. the comparable gasser. Say, Mercedes E320 Bluetec vs. E350, or Jetta TDI vs. Jetta 2.0. I know that higher NOx emissions are what have kept diesels away from my hands, but have never been able to determine how the officially measured emission levels on a diesel compares with those of a gasser on the other two pollutants.

roland3

... bhill, the New Jersey official inspection site is right around the corner from me; I could go over there and get the specs if you want; however not a CARB state. There must be a way to get the specs on the web. Of course it might be interesting to stand around awhile and see how much of a passing margin some of these vehicles have.

ruking1

About the same as a (gasser) Toyota Camry.

ruking1

We just clicked 100,000 miles on the TDI.

This "milestone" has just been passed completely and utterly seamlessly! No bells, whistles, lights, gongs, ring tones, NADA. The mpg range has been between 44-62 mpg. We routinely get 48-52 mpg. On a recent road trip, one leg measured 59 mpg. (due to overly attentive 3 state: CA, OR, WA Highway Patrol/s " customer service"). Neatest thing (which still amazes me, even after 100,000 miles) is one pretty much can get the mpg one wants !??

After break in, I have been and remain on 20,000 to 25,000 miles OCI's. I do the 10,000 miles interval services. It just recently went through the 100,000 mile routine (for every 100k miles) timing belt/water pump change and VAG.com computer tuning.

There was a time frame when clicking 100,000 miles was a sure sign you had gone at LEAST 25,000 miles too many before selling!

Fast forward to the 2003-2008 time frame and maybe in another 10,000-20,000 miles, I might want to replace the oem tires, which I have to admit has absolutely NOTHING germane to DIESELS in the News! Strange new world!?

roland3

... The oh-Eight, CRD-TDI might not need a belt, (wife's Altima had a hard chromed chain). The injectors will have no mechanical interface with the valve train. LOVE that MPG.

ruking1

For sure on all counts!!

On the TB/WP issue, I am/remain conflicted. Once it was a MAJOR stumbling block in my own analysis of whether to get an (diesel in my case) engine with it!! Now I have two (one other is a gasser) With a time horizon of 250,000 miiles or less, DEFINITELY a minus! Over that, DEFINITELY a plus, as those intervals are major ("tune up") renewal points. The opportunity and danger of (any) a timing chain: going on 200,000 miles, one should really have someone with experience look at them, with a change- a definite possibility.

jkinzel

(due to overly attentive 3 state: CA, OR, WA Highway Patrol/s " customer service").

One must be vigilant in WA State these days. The WSP has been giving out a record number of tickets this year to the point that they have gained the attention of the local media.

ruking1

Yes! Actually the "wolf" pack types of behavior exhibited by (using WA as the example, the ones I saw anyway) the highway patrol vehicles, actually creates UNNECESSARILY dangerous situations, where none would not have imminently existed before!! They were in a pack of 5/6 with one as a radar "gunner". At some point, I think each did their own radar gunning. They literally stopped folks on either side of one direction on BOTH SIDES of the interstate!!! (they also had use of those illegal (except to authorized vehicles) highway cut overs. This of course triggered moderate to extreme braking (in either) direction AND prudient to emergency lane changing!! It also creates unnecessary bottle necks and bunching!

Indeed when I came upon the scene, I thought FATAL accidents in either direction were occurring simultaneously and got ready to (even) leave the road, since accidents leave a lot debris, vehicles, parts and body parts in non normal positions, which can kill YOU if you happened to be unlucky to hit them.

If this had happened in CA, you can also get ticketed for NOT moving over FROM the lane closest to where L/E has stopped (usually the side of the road) !! So it brings up the case, what if L/E stops on BOTH sides of the road in a direction? Are you required to straddle up the middle of a two lane interstate??

Last thing I EVER want to do is to wack some hapless motorist stopped for a real NON emergency (revenue enhancement) by L/E, or a L/E officer, creating the conditions ripe for danger,or be ticketed for a bogus situation artifically and situationally created by L/E for revenue enhancement.AKA entrapment.

bhill2

I would appreciate that, roland3. I am assuming that the difference between emissions in and out of CARB states will mostly be NOx. In any case, I would be really interested in seeing comparative data.

marsha7

a list of the diesel cars and SUVs currently offered and those expected to be offered in the next two years???...I don't mean Kenworths and Peterbilts, just ordinary passenger cars and SUVs...it may pay to stall purchasing anything for a year or two if some high-mpg diesel engines will be sold soon...I am NOT into hybrids, but clean diesel would be nice, if done right (not like the Olds 350 diesel that was simply a gas engine with higher compression)...thanks

ruking1

http://www.edmunds.com/diesel/index.html

Edmunds.com does it for you. I am just the messenger here.

blufz1

Right. Defer,Defer,Defer. The longer you can wait to buy,the better.

vchiu

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Themen-Testberichte-Touring-oder-T-Modell-_443401- .html

In short, the BMW offers better road handling/feeling than the MB which in return provide better long distance comfort and luggage capacity. They both provide a fair level of refinement and sportiness. Despite its smaller displacement, the 2.0L BMW puts the car in quicker motion, but the stronger MB torque makes overtaking faster.
Overall, the BMW takes the advantage thanks to better economics. its efficient dynamics programme allowed the test consumption to be 5,8L/100 = 40MPG while the MB fared an already good 6,7L/100 = 35MPG. the BMW lower price tag confirmed the lead

Measured with manual gears. Automatic gear optional.

Would be great if those models were available int he US...

vchiu

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/Themen-Allrad-Echte-Kraftwagen_432811.html

While the RRS is a very capable and offers a pleasant inside atmosphere, the ML is superior in most key points such as performance, comfort, accommodation space. The RRS has a softer engine tone and a price advantage of 5500 Euros. Its silky engine, being 10% less powerful than the MB is suffering from the 880 pounds extra weight of the body. Despite the objective advantages of the MB, the RRS may still find its market and its fans, thanks to its good offroad abilities and refined manners.

Not sure if any of those 2 are available in the US

gagrice

Only the MB ML320 CDI is available in the USA. That same engine is available in the R320 CDI and GL320 CDI. I have only driven the GL320 CDI. It has plenty of power. I think the RRS is smaller than the GL320.

ruking1

It is amazing to watch the progression of how far the concept of buying diesel models has come since VW was pretty close to the lone wolf in diesel passenger vehicle fleet (in my case, late 2002, earlier obviously). While I would not try this at home, nor recommend anyone doing this, it still amazes me that a 90 hp diesel engine can shoot one along at close to XXX digit speed and still get 48 mpg!! The big three of course, has been sellling so called "light" trucks (250/2500 series on up) for literally years and years; and from what I have seen, @ significant premiums to same model gassers.

It would seem to me, one flagship engine would be a small block (300-350 cu in) V8: twin turbo on the high end side, single turbo on the bread and butter side, and getting between 30-35-40 mpg! With some of these diesel engines already batting out over 600 # ft of torque, this is MONSTER! As a point of comparison, the 2008 Z06 Corvette with 505 hp bats out 470 # ft of torque.

ruking1

..."Automatic gear optional"...

European markets demands manual tranmissions (95%).

The US markets has been, remains and will demand the majority to be auto transmissions.

The weakest link remains a good auto transmission (diesel).

marsha7

thanks...I did not know that edmunds had a category that was right up my alley...I had guessed that more passenger cars had diesels, but apparently mostly trucks...thanks...

bpeebles

You are correct that "normal" slushbox type designs lose too much forward motion as heat. (thus lose MPG)

The new DSG automatic xmissions from Audi/VW have been calld an "automatic manual" because of how they work with dual clutches which actually shift gears. It has been reported that TDIs with the DSG xmissions can match or beat a manual xmissions in MPG. (there is virtially no power loss in the xmission)

From what I have read, VW may ONLY offer future TDIs with the DSG xmission 8-(

(I would prefer a manual)

hwyhobo

bpeebles wrote:
From what I have read, VW may ONLY offer future TDIs with the DSG xmission 8-(
(I would prefer a manual)

While I've driven stick for the past quarter of the century, I will freely admit that if I could find an automatic that would be as efficient, or close to the stick, I would buy it. To me stick has only two reasons, efficiency and mountain driving. If the first is matched, I will somehow learn to drive auto on winding mountain roads. If VW provides the future TDI with the DSG tranny, that would be a plus for me. Now let's hope they will offer a Passat Wagon in that configuration as well.

KCRam

Dodge will offer a 7-speed automated manual (dual-clutch) around 2010 in the Ram 2500/3500 with the Cummins diesel and whichever gasoline engine is around that year. Model is 79REM and will replace the Benz-made G56 6-speed manual.

I'm actually looking forward to that - hopefully the ratios are properly spaced.

kcram - Pickups Host

ruking1

The inclusion of the 7th ("extra") gear (without seeing the specifications) would lead me to believe that would be the intention.

I'd be interested in the longer term durability. I used to have a neighbor who had a diesel Ram automatic transmission for a work truck and if memory serves correctly he clicked off 135,000 miles before he was hit with a 3,500 transmission repair bill. Lucky for him his employer footed the bill.

roland3

... bhill, first attempt, only produced a form for pass or fail with no quantities or percent, or ppm, there of. I'll have to look further. I am also wondering how much different (or not) Diesel regs are ???

ruking1

Since diesel emissions are on par with a Camry, perhaps looking at that statistic would start you in the correct direction or serve as the real comparison to start.

The other things would be to look at sites like:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/

KCRam

My 96 Ram 3500 (Cummins/47RE) required the trans cooling lines replaced in 2004 at about 107,000. I traded a year later at 127,000. Was leaving little pink presents in my parking space - looked like from the bottom of the dipstick tube where it reaches the pan.

The 2005 is at 54,000 miles (Cummins/48RE), and the powertrain has been just fine.

kcram - Pickups Host

bhill2

Roland and Ruking, thanks for your efforts. To the best of my knowledge, the regs for gas and diesel are the same. In fact, if diesels are better in either HC or CO, I think a case could be made for having different regs, since diesels would have offsetting advantages in emissions to trade for the (somewhat) higher NOx levels. That is,of course, in addition to the dramatically lower levels of greenhouse gasses.

roland3

... bhill, yes it should not take a bureauracy to know (or not) that: better MPG, less HC, and less CO, are just about one in the same. BTW, Click and Clack (Tom & Ray) use their tailpipe sniffer under the hood to find that worst of unburned HC, fuel leaks.

ruking1

I think they tend to obscure a lot of the technical realities, to continue to make unsubstantiated claims, or let someone else make those unsubstantiated claims because it suits those that benefit from those unsubstantiated claims/agenda 's.

A perfect case in point. Some one says "dirty diesel". Now this is PERFECTLY sound bite able!!?? Even I would agree that it is.!!! Now the implication here of course diesel is is TONS dirtier than RUG/PUG. Then you tell em the truth that RUG/PUG is 2x dirtier than ULSD!!? They then look at you like you just told a bold face lie as they are more than likely an offender by using RUG/PUG! But then you given em the sulfur ppm numbers of GAS 30 ppm vs DIESEL 15 ppm to LESS... and then what can they really say?!!! They usual deny the math like 30 ppm IS LESS than 15 ppm!!?? The reaction is usually : do NOT confuse me with the facts, my minds already made up. The other truth is that when one starts to explain the technical aspects, most folks eyes, ears, nose throat and minds totally glaze over. (George Lopez's joke: I CAN'T BREATH)

Now really, what motorist either as a passenger or driver has not in the past followed a (TOTALLY UNMITIGATED) mass transportation diesel bus, truck., train etc, etc.?

What person that has even driven a plane either as a pilot (rare) or passenger (more likely) has not gotten a wiff of (again TOTALLY UNMITIGATED) burnt jet fuel from the plane that took off before them??

Now the very same regulators (fed, state, local and otherwise) who tell you "dirty" diesel are the very same that give a 100% get out of jail free pass/es on those very emitters. Then they use that 100% total unmitigated, (their actions by the way) as the "PERFECT" reason/s to make it economically and emissions near impossible to get on the market MITIGATED diesel passenger diesels in any meaningful volume and percentage.!!?? This is schizophrenia!! (No disrespect to those that are REALLY suffering from that dreaded disease.) They even have to acknowledge (but try to hide) that not only does it emit less CO2 , and that is is technically do able to have diesel have the same to BETTER emissions!!! This of course brings up the question why they let RUG/PUG be 2x dirtier than ULSD!!? This is also significant in that upwards of 97% of the passenger vehicle fleet burn the 2x dirtier RUG/PUG !!!!

The other issue is the legislation (forcing) higher mpg cars!? They do not need to make new loop holed legislation, they just need to make passenger vehicles that actually get BETTER fuel mileage. My TDI Jetta gets 48-52 mpg and it did NOT require legislation to get that !!?? Indeed it was almost eliminated DUE to current NON legislation and/or legislation designed to eliminate it !!!!!

hypnosis44

It is not axiomatic that more MPG equals les pollutants It depends on a broad range of mechanical, fuel, environmental, and driving factors, some controlable, others not. There is the old saying that for every complex and persistent problem there is s very simple answer, and it is always wrong.

ruking1

Nobody here ever said that it was. My Toyota Landcruisers have well come under the emissions tests when fuel was .74 cents per gal 20 years ago as they do now (2007) when fuel is 3.60 per gal. But at the same time those are very same folks (regulators, legislators, etc, etc.) claiming it is axiomatic and imperative to cut "fuel" use, exportation and imported foreign" fuels!!! Precisely the opposite is occurring! Indeed we are no longer the driving force to increased usage!! China and Russia easily eclipse either Europe or the US! So indeed we have ceased being the leader in consumption. So much so in fact that the assumptions that drove us to these so called clean up efforts no LONGER apply to us!! In addition they are also radically increasing the price of using larger amounts of that fuel! So if you are ok with burning more to so called use less, that might be logical to you, but as probably you can tell, does not compute.

..."There is the old saying that for every complex and persistent problem there is s very simple answer, and it is always wrong. "...

Good concept!

It is hard to use alternative fuels (du jour) when there are no real long term alternatives... are there!? That gives diesel the advantage for a WHOLE host of previously stated reasons, if you care to search or goggle , as you have probably selectively forgotten.