Here is where I get confused, if your first offer is below your bottom, does it matter if you are first, second or third?
Yes it does, your bottom and the dealers bottom my not be the same. In your example what if the dealers bottom was below yours? If you name your bottom first you will never get the dealers bottom.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Tell, them up front what you want to pay, you know its a fair deal and that you are ready to buy.
I'm sorry, but that is good advice for the dealer, not for the consumer.
What benefit is it to me to give advice to a consumer that benefits the dealer?
Its up to racefan, Does he want to do spend 4 hours at a dealer or 2 hours at a dealer? Does he want try to remember every negotiation trick in the book and assume the worst out of the dealer? Or does he want to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and see if they can earn his business in a way that is non confrontational? Its up to him.
I usually make the first offer, I guess its an offer? (I have been doing this for so long Its wierd puting it all in steps)
Usually after the demo drive, and service walk, and the customer is ready work numbers (Price is never even talked about until this point) I will ask how they were looking to pay for the car (lease balloon cash or finance) And I tell them what MSRP of the car (So I guess this is first offer)
" So, I give my self a target of $29,300 to 29,700.
So, in my mind I think if I were to use the bobst method I would say $29,500 -lets write it up.
But from a "negotiating" standpoint. My feeble mind says start below my bottom say $29,100? "
Using my interpretation of the bobst method, I would go in with an initial price of $29100. Now there's 3 Honda dealers close to me I'd consider, so I would start at the closest, if not successful, go to the other two.
In a worst case scenario, I strike out at all 3 with $29100. Even with bad traffic, it would be about 2 hours of my time. Also, if $29100 is hundred bucks or so away from what the dealer wants, they would still make the deal.
for the feedback. When I originally posted, I had read back over several weeks worth of postings, but wanted to go deeper into this whole, "who should make an offer first" thing. I deliberately asked the question about seeking advice in a very general fashion in the hopes that I might learn something new that had not been mentioned before.
Yes it does, your bottom and the dealers bottom my not be the same. In your example what if the dealers bottom was below yours? If you name your bottom first you will never get the dealers bottom.
HUH? So you really think the dealer's first offer will be their bottom??
Let's say they make an offer first ... its $500 off MSRP. How does this change anything?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Just because he uses the negotiation tactics that me and Socal advocate (man I still can't believe we agree on something) doesn't mean he will be at the dealer for twice as long. Nor does it assume the worst of the dealer. Nor does it have to be confrontational.
I have used those tactics and had everything said and done driving out of the dealer in under 90 minutes with a good relationship with the salesman (bought one more car from him as well as sent at least 8 more sales his way).
Its a negotiation, its doesn't have to be long and confrontational and only becomes so if some one lets it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Again, I think we need to get past the mythology that it takes four hours to cut a good deal. It really doesn't take all that long, and in fact, I find that a well negotiated purchase and trade leads to a relatively short F&I process, because by then, it's pretty clear how things are going to end up.
It also does not have to be a confrontational process. There is nothing confrontational about keeping more of my money, unless the dealer chooses to be aggressive (which he may very well do, but if he does, that's his problem, not mine.) I've actively discouraged consumers from resorting to confrontation first, as you can usually do better without it, except as an occasional gambit towards the end.
I'm not clear what "benefit of the doubt" is required. I have absolutely no doubt that the dealer wants to maximize his side of the deal (new car sale, trade, financing, extras) as best he can, if he or she is a good capitalist, after all, then why wouldn't s/he?
My job is different, it's to negotiate effectively in order to get the lowest price possible. This is not tough to do at all and takes very little time. If my earlier example of my first car purchases shows anything, it's that quite literally, even a kid can do it.
Bob's method involves making a higher bid to the next dealership if it isn't accepted, so he is being bid up, he's just giving that extra money to someone else.
In any case, we've already covered the pitfalls of making your first offer a "best and final". It's confrontational, it deprives you of potentially useful information, it ensures that you will not pay anything less than your offer amount (which means you could easily overpay), and it doesn't allow the other guy an opportunity to save face. Lots of disadvantages, when perhaps another 15-30 minutes or so of negotiation would likely produce an even lower price.
For the record - typically I have a number in mind, but don't disclose it.
I let the dealer make the first offer, and then also let him make a second offer which typically comes pretty quickly after I sit there looking puzzled for 10 minutes, and making general comments about being out of my budget (and sounding very disappointed).
Then, if the second offer is close to my number, I typically at that point put my offer out there, minus a couple hundred dollars. When the dealer squawks at it, I then offer to do the whole "split the difference" routine which will either end up with an OK from them, or me leaving. Generally takes about an hour.
Let's say they make an offer first ... its $500 off MSRP. How does this change anything?
It's a technique that some would call "bracketing". Basically, when you get to a point toward the end of the haggle if you opt to "split the difference", it's easier to do it if your difference isn't all that far apart. So your goal is to first pull the price downward in your direction, than "compromise" by meeting at a point below your maximum target if possible.
This guy Roger Dawson comes in handy, he explains it here: "Bracketing Your Objective". Combine bracketing with the other techniques, so that the compromise position between you and your opponent are closer than when the negotiation began.
By the way, I don't always advocate the "split the difference" method, it isn't always necessary. Sometimes, rather than meet in the middle, you can give up a bit in a subsequent counter or two that keeps you below the mid-point. I'd try to shoot for staying below your target price, not hitting it, otherwise you will just pay the target price every time, whether you needed to or not.
HUH? So you really think the dealer's first offer will be their bottom??
No it won't be their bottom they will come down, but not to your initial asking price.
Many posts ago I gave my experience where I got the salesman to make the first offer then got him to make another without me naming a price. That second offer was my so called "bottom" price. At that point I countered his price and he come down even lower. If I made the offer first I would have paid more. I saved about 1% but it only took a few extra minutes (and I do mean just a few).
Let's say they make an offer first ... its $500 off MSRP. How does this change anything?
First off you have an established ceiling but no floor. Secondly you have them chasing a sale instead of you chasing a buy. If this is based on the example given I would have just walked away as $500 below MSRP is way above what the other data says it should be.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I still don't see how this explains why they must give a price first. I'm not saying I disagree, because I also prefer the other party go first in a negotiation, but I also don't see, if you were a bold person, why giving a lowball first changes anything.
If this is based on the example given I would have just walked away as $500 below MSRP is way above what the other data says it should be.
I didn't intend for it to be ... but lets say it is. I'd like to address this comment. SO, what you are saying is that you want to give an initial offer well below what you are "willing" to pay, but you won't stand for the exact tactic on the other side of the fence?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Well it really does not matter who starts the bidding you know what your high is and what you are willing to pay. I most cases it can speed up the process it u let them know what u r thinking.
Lowballing is never good for either side so i would stay away from it. It just causes people to get fustrated and confused. Speed is always the goal between 2 partys so why would u lowball and slow down the process.
I have been given a price on a new Buick Lucerne of$29,200. I was planing on a complete purchase but now I am thinking of leasing. What should I expect fo pay for a 4 year lease at 12,000 miles /year?
I still don't see how this explains why they must give a price first.
because when you know your opponents position and they don't know yours you have an advantage. Once someone gives a price they reduce their options and gives the other side opportunity to adjust strategy. this gives the other side an advantage.
It also puts you in the position where a skilled negotiator will attempt to make you counter yourself all the while never mentioning price.
I'd like to address this comment. SO, what you are saying is that you want to give an initial offer well below what you are "willing" to pay, but you won't stand for the exact tactic on the other side of the fence?
There is a difference with putting out a price reasonably above what your willing to sell the car in order to come down and setting the price unreasonably high. In this case I wouldn't walk because the dealer highballed a figure, but that we would be starting to far apart (in this case it would be over $2,000 difference). Part of negotiation is being able to determine if you can be successful in your goal. Or at least being able to find out you won't before investing to much time.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I got the salesman to make the first offer then got him to make another offer without naming me naming a price.
Okay, so you say to the salesman, "Whats the best you can do off MSRP?" The salesman replies "$1,000 off." You try to get him to lower this by acting confused, dumb, I'm still over my budget...whatever.
Salesman doesn't bite, but replies with, " What price would you like to pay for this vehilce...give me a number and I'll see what I can do" (waiting)..."Come on Jipster...I know what you're up to. Make me a decent counter offer and we'll work it out"
At that point I would feel pressured into making a counter, and would probably offer about $500 under my lowest acceptable target price. Good or bad??? How would I counter the saleman pressuring me for some numbers?
Not to mention possibly terrible residual on that car (probably soon to be a premium rental favorite at Avis, National and Enterprise). This can bite two ways: if they predict it correctly, your lease payment is going to be not very attractive. If they inflate it to make it better, you will pay less, but at the lease return they may try to "recover" that by wear and tear charges and buyout would be totally prohibitive.
Speed is always the goal between 2 partys so why would u lowball and slow down the process.
Actually, speed should not be your priority, unless you want to leave money on the table. If you have a time constraint that you communicate prior to beginning the negotiation, a smart negotiator will use this against you, because he knows that you are in a hurry to close, and won't give up as much ground.
While it can be useful to use time pressures to help clinch a deal that has largely been cut, announcing that there is a need to hurry is a poor idea.
Im not sure where to post this, but am buying a car and the owner of the car wishes to use the company www.beta-transport.com to ship it. Ive looked around on the web about this company and I have seen nothing about it. The numbers are registered in MN, yet the company is based in TX. Has anyone heard of this company?
I've used several different negotiating strategies that worked well for me. I purchased an Acura RL in 2000 when I found out about the $5,000 dealer cash incentive. I did my research, find out what the true invoice cost was, and my starting point was true invoice minus $5k. I visited 3 local dealers and got a great deal in end. It ended up taking about 4 hours total over 1 1/2 weeks. What helped me was the availability of more than 1 dealer to shop at for the same car where I lived at the time.
My most recent purchase was for an 06 Accord EX V6 in February. Honda was running a great 3 yr lease deal except I wanted 15k miles vs 12k, and no money down vs $2400 (about, I think) plus bank fee and other fees. I had a trade so I researched what it was worth and knew it would be borderline to get enough equity out of it to accomplish what I wanted. I was shopping another make (VW) since I didn't want to lock myself into one car that I HAD to have. This was especially helpful since each make I was shopping only has one local dealership where I currently live. I visited each dealer twice - first to get some information (although I didn't need it), meet a sales person to start a report with them, leave my business card, and accomplish a test drive, and the second visit to do a final test drive, negotiate and probable purchase. I was upfront with each about that I was shopping both Honda and VW. Although my ultimate goal was to secure the Honda lease deal with little or no money out of pocket, I didn't deny the fact that I liked the VW too but their lease deals were not as enticing. So I started negotiating at the VW dealer first and got some very good numbers for my trade and monthly lease costs, not quite as good as Honda's advertised lease, but close. They wrote some numbers down, I asked for a copy and they gave it to me. The next day, I go to the Honda store, do a final drive and start talking numbers. When the sales person said they need to get my mileage and VIN, and I said let me "help" you with it, and I hand them the "deal" sheet from the VW dealer which had all my information on it. I wait a few minutes and the sale manager comes up, introduces himself, and asked if I could follow him to his desk to avoid the "back and forth" routine. I said "sure!" We talked a bit, I stated I wanted the advertise Honda deal, except more miles and no money out of pocket, and he said, "we can do that". I said great! An hour later, I drove off in my new Honda. I was very professional in my approach, and each dealer treated me professionally. It was truly an enjoyable experience. :shades:
I agree *gulp* with some of socala's tatics, and really if he was my attorney, I definently would want him to be the one to get me a plea deal, but I think that his tatics can get a bit confusing for somepeople. I am a big adovocate of KISS. keep it simple stupid. I say this because out of my years of experience, and just working with people, the customers that have the 20 pages of research, read all the car buying books, somehow leave the most money on the table, because they are just bogged down with so much info, and some of it conflicting so they do not know which way is up.
And my question was still not answered. Why would I give advice that benefits the dealer?
Sorry if this is better suited to another forum I might have missed. I'm in my overanalyzing, fact gathering stage and thinking about arriving at that price I offer up initally.
Let's assume we've reached an acceptable offer for the vehicle. Write-up occurs and then TTL and doc fees come into play. My state has a max doc fee of ~$58. In addition to the doc fee lets say the dealer wants $105 for title and plate transfer, yet I know the state only charges $65 for title and $15 for transfer totalling $80.
This $58 doc fee and extra $25 to title car/plates is pure profit, right? (Yes, I know it takes some time to fill out the forms and put it in the mail). Instead of haggling over these at the end of the deal, I'm thinking it's easier just to work on them as part of my offer on the car.
This $58 doc fee and extra $25 to title car/plates is pure profit, right? (Yes, I know it takes some time to fill out the forms and put it in the mail). Instead of haggling over these at the end of the deal, I'm thinking it's easier just to work on them as part of my offer on the car.
Based upon your description, you're right, those are all profits (or at least sources of revenue) hidden by calling them "fees". You can't blame the dealer for the sales tax or the DMV/ license fees (although these can be reduced a bit by paying less for whatever it is you buy), but charging you for paperwork is about as legit as would be charging you for the electricity in the dealership or the air in the tires.
I'd say you have a couple of options, which you can combine together if you like:
-Fuggedaboutit...well, sorta. If you can take the $83 out of your offer, i.e. buy something for $100 less than what you might otherwise pay, then you came out whole. The fees are low, so getting it out of your purchase price isn't so bad. (And if the tax and license fee is based upon the purchase price alone, then you'll get a slight additional benefit by removing it from the price, rather than cutting it from the back end.)
-Nibble for it. As a last-minute tactic, you can look puzzled at the contract, then smile nicely at the F&I guy and say, "And you are going to waive these little tiny fees, right?"
-Combine the two, i.e. get rid of one of them through the price haggle, and nibble for the other one at the end.
The disadvantage of doing it as a nibble is if you have something else that you'd prefer to get from your nibble, whatever that happens to be. (I'm assuming that you've already gotten your free floor mats tossed in at some other point prior to the nibble -- does anybody actually ever pay for floor mats?) So I would game plan your nibble, and see what things you might want from it.
I'm sure that there are some other options, but they might vary from deal to deal.
Also you might get a check back from the dealer when your plates arrive, (depending on state) We charge a $120 for licensing, but sometimes the tax office does not charge for new plates, so its credited back to the customer.
Also, the title stuff is not mailed its walked down by person to the tax office.
1. I am looking to get a Cadillac CTS. I see an 2003 for $22,000 with 41 thousand miles. I wonder should I finance it for 60 months or should I get a new 2006 and finance it with a longer term to get the monthly payment around 430.00. If I decide to trade it in I don't want to be upside down on the car.
2. If I decide to get a 2006, is the GMAC Smartbuy contract a good thing to do?
I have this philosophy that you should never finance a new car under any circumstances longer than 60 months.
If you are one to keep cars until they gasp thier last breath of oil then 60 is ok. If you are one who in 2-3 years gets the tickle to get something new. Then I would really focus on purchasing a car for no longer then 36 months.
My philosophy is one purchases a used car for value, therefore any time you add the age of the vehicle and the term of loan you should not exceed the number 6. (ie 3 yr car- 3 yr note)
If you can not make these numbers work, I would seriously consider looking for alternative transportation.
Stretched wallets like stretched rubberbands eventually snap. Leave some flexibility, because lots can happen in 3,4,5,6 years such as loss of job, illness, births, pay decrease.
"And my question was still not answered. Why would I give advice that benefits the dealer?"
Because you are a nice person and you like to give people advice that will help them.
I'm the same way. I work part-time at the Dept. of Agriculture and we often go for walks on the Mall after lunch. I give advice to at least one tourist every day. At least it shows the foreigners that Americans are frendly people.
Help! I'm the current owner of a Infiniti G35. I'm looking to up-grade. I'm interested in the Cadillac STS, the BMW 5-series, the Mercedes E class, and the Lexus LS. I'm no car expert an all of these luxury brands seem to offer the same features and incentives. Any insider information or tips would be much appreciated. Thanks!
I see an 2003 for $22,000 with 41 thousand miles. I wonder should I finance it for 60 months
If you buy a three-year old car with a five-year loan, you will be paying off the car until it is eight years old, most likely one with over 100k miles by the time that you're through with it. I'd be hesitant to do that.
should I get a new 2006 and finance it with a longer term to get the monthly payment around 430.00. If I decide to trade it in I don't want to be upside down on the car.
If you buy a car with a large loan, and finance it over a five year term, chances are very good that the price that a dealer would pay you for that used car is going to put you upside-down. (To hark back to an earlier discussion, this low trade-in price shouldn't be confused with what you would be paid by an insurance company if the car was totalled or stolen.)
To guesstimate what could happen, I would do the following (no, it's not as hard it may sound):
(1) Look at the past history of depreciation of these cars, as well as the projected residual value (the latter can be obtained from a lease guide). Apply the percentages of depreciation obtained here to the MSRP of the new car, and forecast the future trade-in value accordingly. (For example, if you see that 2004 CTS have lost 50% of their value in two years, then assume that the 2006 car will be worth 50% of MSRP two years from now.)
(2) Get an amortization table to model your future loan payments (you can build one in Excel if you know how, or else find one online) based upon the amount of the loan that you would need to buy the new car. (This means that you'll need to estimate what you'd pay for the new car, add any additional costs such as tax, license, etc., then deduct for any trade-in you may have, incentives and rebates, and any down payment.) Use this projected loan balance, combined with the projected interest rate and loan term, to forecast the principal balance of your loan at various points in the future
(3) Compare the forecasted trade-in value that you forecasted during Step 1 with the loan's projected principal balance calculated in Step 2.
Assuming you did a reasonable job of estimating the future trade-in value (which is a crap shoot, but the historical and lease guide data will help), you should get a fair guess (but only a guess) as to whether you will be upside down or not. That being said, I can say with near certainty that the odds of being upside down are almost 100%, because dealers don't like to pay much for trade-ins, particularly on domestics.
There are various forums here to discuss those individual brands, plus Edmunds provides car reviews and the ability to create side-by-side comparisons of whatever combination of cars that you'd like. I'd also read the various car magazines for their driving reviews, Consumer Reports for a more cold, unemotional opinion and their reliability data, and Intellichoice and JD Power for more information.
After all that, I think that you'll find that the Cadillac is probably going to offer the greatest opportunity to obtain deep discounts, but will also depreciate more quickly.
Well I just check carmax and they have an 03 with 37K for just under that price. I am also in the mindset that Carmax is slightly on the high side. That being said I would pass on this unless you can get a few thousand off.
Also since it is three years old I wouldn't go more than a 3 year loan on the car, and that would be pressing it.
As for the smartbuy I am not sure what that is.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
"My advice then would be don't buy the car if you don't need it. Keep the other two cars and pocket the car payment in a bank."
What would be the fun in that? Seriously though...I have always been very conservative financially, and resisted the "I wants" my entire life (for major things). And let's face it...an Element or CRV isn't exactly what one would refer to as a "major splerge".
My advice to people would be to keep the car at least a year or two after its paid off investing the car payment money after its paid off. A year or two later you have a much larger down payment to make on a car and you can take out a loan for a year or two less and keep the payments the same. Then invest the funds you would have made in car payments for a future car purchase.
I know a few people who now pay cash for their cars using this. Of course it requires you to keep the same car for 5 or 6 years and it requires discipline, but they do it.
And let's face it...an Element or CRV isn't exactly what one would refer to as a "major splerge".
Not comparing it with a Lexus no. But it is spending money when you really don't need to.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
...extra $25 to title car/plates is pure profit, right? (Yes, I know it takes some time to fill out the forms and put it in the mail).
Let's see - Save $25 by running around and wasting 3 hours at the Mass RMV or poke my self in the eye with a stick. Hmm tough decision - I'll take the latter.
Here in MA, luckily dealers are on-line with the RMV and have an inventory of plates but they pay for that service. Or they have a runner who gets in a special line at the RMV and do multiple vehicles at once.
Let's see - Save $25 by running around and wasting 3 hours at the Mass RMV or poke my self in the eye with a stick. Hmm tough decision - I'll take the latter.
I've lived in 5 different states and have dealt with 5 different DMVs.... Massachusetts is BY FAR the worst! I have never waited nearly as long and accomplished so little at any of the other states' DMVs. I definitely don't miss that part of Massachusetts. :sick:
.. **have never waited nearly as long and accomplished so little ....**
Bud, have ya ever been to the Florida DMV's...?
Everyone thinks there is alot of retired people in Florida, not true .... it's the people that came in for their June renewal and just got out yesterday .....
So I am understanding this correct that YOU have to go get your own plates? *gasp*
In, IL we just pay the fee to the dealer and they slap on a temporary plate and your regular plates are either sent to you or directly to the dealer, and if yer a bit nice..they will even put them on for you while you enjoy a lovely cup of dealer coffee.
At our dealership, our title clerk goes to the county tax office, with all the title stuff and they hand her the plates and stickers right there. Unless a customer is 100+ miles away, they must be picked up at the dealer in person, or the salesperson delivers them by hand to either their home or office.
Comments
Yes it does, your bottom and the dealers bottom my not be the same. In your example what if the dealers bottom was below yours? If you name your bottom first you will never get the dealers bottom.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
I'm sorry, but that is good advice for the dealer, not for the consumer.
What benefit is it to me to give advice to a consumer that benefits the dealer?
Its up to racefan, Does he want to do spend 4 hours at a dealer or 2 hours at a dealer? Does he want try to remember every negotiation trick in the book and assume the worst out of the dealer? Or does he want to give the dealer the benefit of the doubt and see if they can earn his business in a way that is non confrontational? Its up to him.
Usually after the demo drive, and service walk, and the customer is ready work numbers (Price is never even talked about until this point) I will ask how they were looking to pay for the car (lease balloon cash or finance) And I tell them what MSRP of the car (So I guess this is first offer)
So, in my mind I think if I were to use the bobst method I would say $29,500 -lets write it up.
But from a "negotiating" standpoint. My feeble mind says start below my bottom say $29,100? "
Using my interpretation of the bobst method, I would go in with an initial price of $29100. Now there's 3 Honda dealers close to me I'd consider, so I would start at the closest, if not successful, go to the other two.
In a worst case scenario, I strike out at all 3 with $29100. Even with bad traffic, it would be about 2 hours of my time. Also, if $29100 is hundred bucks or so away from what the dealer wants, they would still make the deal.
HUH? So you really think the dealer's first offer will be their bottom??
Let's say they make an offer first ... its $500 off MSRP. How does this change anything?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I have used those tactics and had everything said and done driving out of the dealer in under 90 minutes with a good relationship with the salesman (bought one more car from him as well as sent at least 8 more sales his way).
Its a negotiation, its doesn't have to be long and confrontational and only becomes so if some one lets it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It also does not have to be a confrontational process. There is nothing confrontational about keeping more of my money, unless the dealer chooses to be aggressive (which he may very well do, but if he does, that's his problem, not mine.) I've actively discouraged consumers from resorting to confrontation first, as you can usually do better without it, except as an occasional gambit towards the end.
I'm not clear what "benefit of the doubt" is required. I have absolutely no doubt that the dealer wants to maximize his side of the deal (new car sale, trade, financing, extras) as best he can, if he or she is a good capitalist, after all, then why wouldn't s/he?
My job is different, it's to negotiate effectively in order to get the lowest price possible. This is not tough to do at all and takes very little time. If my earlier example of my first car purchases shows anything, it's that quite literally, even a kid can do it.
By definition, a "final" offer can't be bid up.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Bob's method involves making a higher bid to the next dealership if it isn't accepted, so he is being bid up, he's just giving that extra money to someone else.
In any case, we've already covered the pitfalls of making your first offer a "best and final". It's confrontational, it deprives you of potentially useful information, it ensures that you will not pay anything less than your offer amount (which means you could easily overpay), and it doesn't allow the other guy an opportunity to save face. Lots of disadvantages, when perhaps another 15-30 minutes or so of negotiation would likely produce an even lower price.
I let the dealer make the first offer, and then also let him make a second offer which typically comes pretty quickly after I sit there looking puzzled for 10 minutes, and making general comments about being out of my budget (and sounding very disappointed).
Then, if the second offer is close to my number, I typically at that point put my offer out there, minus a couple hundred dollars. When the dealer squawks at it, I then offer to do the whole "split the difference" routine which will either end up with an OK from them, or me leaving. Generally takes about an hour.
It's a technique that some would call "bracketing". Basically, when you get to a point toward the end of the haggle if you opt to "split the difference", it's easier to do it if your difference isn't all that far apart. So your goal is to first pull the price downward in your direction, than "compromise" by meeting at a point below your maximum target if possible.
This guy Roger Dawson comes in handy, he explains it here: "Bracketing Your Objective". Combine bracketing with the other techniques, so that the compromise position between you and your opponent are closer than when the negotiation began.
By the way, I don't always advocate the "split the difference" method, it isn't always necessary. Sometimes, rather than meet in the middle, you can give up a bit in a subsequent counter or two that keeps you below the mid-point. I'd try to shoot for staying below your target price, not hitting it, otherwise you will just pay the target price every time, whether you needed to or not.
No it won't be their bottom they will come down, but not to your initial asking price.
Many posts ago I gave my experience where I got the salesman to make the first offer then got him to make another without me naming a price. That second offer was my so called "bottom" price. At that point I countered his price and he come down even lower. If I made the offer first I would have paid more. I saved about 1% but it only took a few extra minutes (and I do mean just a few).
Let's say they make an offer first ... its $500 off MSRP. How does this change anything?
First off you have an established ceiling but no floor. Secondly you have them chasing a sale instead of you chasing a buy. If this is based on the example given I would have just walked away as $500 below MSRP is way above what the other data says it should be.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If this is based on the example given I would have just walked away as $500 below MSRP is way above what the other data says it should be.
I didn't intend for it to be ... but lets say it is. I'd like to address this comment. SO, what you are saying is that you want to give an initial offer well below what you are "willing" to pay, but you won't stand for the exact tactic on the other side of the fence?
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
because when you know your opponents position and they don't know yours you have an advantage. Once someone gives a price they reduce their options and gives the other side opportunity to adjust strategy. this gives the other side an advantage.
It also puts you in the position where a skilled negotiator will attempt to make you counter yourself all the while never mentioning price.
I'd like to address this comment. SO, what you are saying is that you want to give an initial offer well below what you are "willing" to pay, but you won't stand for the exact tactic on the other side of the fence?
There is a difference with putting out a price reasonably above what your willing to sell the car in order to come down and setting the price unreasonably high. In this case I wouldn't walk because the dealer highballed a figure, but that we would be starting to far apart (in this case it would be over $2,000 difference). Part of negotiation is being able to determine if you can be successful in your goal. Or at least being able to find out you won't before investing to much time.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Okay, so you say to the salesman, "Whats the best you can do off MSRP?" The salesman replies "$1,000 off." You try to get him to lower this by acting confused, dumb, I'm still over my budget...whatever.
Salesman doesn't bite, but replies with, " What price would you like to pay for this vehilce...give me a number and I'll see what I can do" (waiting)..."Come on Jipster...I know what you're up to. Make me a decent counter offer and we'll work it out"
At that point I would feel pressured into making a counter, and would probably offer about $500 under my lowest acceptable target price. Good or bad??? How would I counter the saleman pressuring me for some numbers?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Actually, speed should not be your priority, unless you want to leave money on the table. If you have a time constraint that you communicate prior to beginning the negotiation, a smart negotiator will use this against you, because he knows that you are in a hurry to close, and won't give up as much ground.
While it can be useful to use time pressures to help clinch a deal that has largely been cut, announcing that there is a need to hurry is a poor idea.
Don't feel pressured, the sales man is now under pressure to make some headway. either by you countering or by him/her making another offer.
One thing you should never do is act if you feel pressured to act.
"Come on Jipster...I know what you're up to. Make me a decent counter offer and we'll work it out"
My counter would be "Oh I am not real sure, the price seems high".
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
If they don't accept, then it is time to leave.
My most recent purchase was for an 06 Accord EX V6 in February. Honda was running a great 3 yr lease deal except I wanted 15k miles vs 12k, and no money down vs $2400 (about, I think) plus bank fee and other fees. I had a trade so I researched what it was worth and knew it would be borderline to get enough equity out of it to accomplish what I wanted. I was shopping another make (VW) since I didn't want to lock myself into one car that I HAD to have. This was especially helpful since each make I was shopping only has one local dealership where I currently live. I visited each dealer twice - first to get some information (although I didn't need it), meet a sales person to start a report with them, leave my business card, and accomplish a test drive, and the second visit to do a final test drive, negotiate and probable purchase. I was upfront with each about that I was shopping both Honda and VW. Although my ultimate goal was to secure the Honda lease deal with little or no money out of pocket, I didn't deny the fact that I liked the VW too but their lease deals were not as enticing. So I started negotiating at the VW dealer first and got some very good numbers for my trade and monthly lease costs, not quite as good as Honda's advertised lease, but close. They wrote some numbers down, I asked for a copy and they gave it to me. The next day, I go to the Honda store, do a final drive and start talking numbers. When the sales person said they need to get my mileage and VIN, and I said let me "help" you with it, and I hand them the "deal" sheet from the VW dealer which had all my information on it. I wait a few minutes and the sale manager comes up, introduces himself, and asked if I could follow him to his desk to avoid the "back and forth" routine. I said "sure!" We talked a bit, I stated I wanted the advertise Honda deal, except more miles and no money out of pocket, and he said, "we can do that". I said great! An hour later, I drove off in my new Honda. I was very professional in my approach, and each dealer treated me professionally. It was truly an enjoyable experience. :shades:
And my question was still not answered. Why would I give advice that benefits the dealer?
Let's assume we've reached an acceptable offer for the vehicle. Write-up occurs and then TTL and doc fees come into play. My state has a max doc fee of ~$58. In addition to the doc fee lets say the dealer wants $105 for title and plate transfer, yet I know the state only charges $65 for title and $15 for transfer totalling $80.
This $58 doc fee and extra $25 to title car/plates is pure profit, right? (Yes, I know it takes some time to fill out the forms and put it in the mail). Instead of haggling over these at the end of the deal, I'm thinking it's easier just to work on them as part of my offer on the car.
Thanks
Based upon your description, you're right, those are all profits (or at least sources of revenue) hidden by calling them "fees". You can't blame the dealer for the sales tax or the DMV/ license fees (although these can be reduced a bit by paying less for whatever it is you buy), but charging you for paperwork is about as legit as would be charging you for the electricity in the dealership or the air in the tires.
I'd say you have a couple of options, which you can combine together if you like:
-Fuggedaboutit...well, sorta. If you can take the $83 out of your offer, i.e. buy something for $100 less than what you might otherwise pay, then you came out whole. The fees are low, so getting it out of your purchase price isn't so bad. (And if the tax and license fee is based upon the purchase price alone, then you'll get a slight additional benefit by removing it from the price, rather than cutting it from the back end.)
-Nibble for it. As a last-minute tactic, you can look puzzled at the contract, then smile nicely at the F&I guy and say, "And you are going to waive these little tiny fees, right?"
-Combine the two, i.e. get rid of one of them through the price haggle, and nibble for the other one at the end.
The disadvantage of doing it as a nibble is if you have something else that you'd prefer to get from your nibble, whatever that happens to be. (I'm assuming that you've already gotten your free floor mats tossed in at some other point prior to the nibble -- does anybody actually ever pay for floor mats?) So I would game plan your nibble, and see what things you might want from it.
I'm sure that there are some other options, but they might vary from deal to deal.
Also you might get a check back from the dealer when your plates arrive, (depending on state) We charge a $120 for licensing, but sometimes the tax office does not charge for new plates, so its credited back to the customer.
Also, the title stuff is not mailed its walked down by person to the tax office.
2. If I decide to get a 2006, is the GMAC Smartbuy contract a good thing to do?
If you are one to keep cars until they gasp thier last breath of oil then 60 is ok. If you are one who in 2-3 years gets the tickle to get something new. Then I would really focus on purchasing a car for no longer then 36 months.
My philosophy is one purchases a used car for value, therefore any time you add the age of the vehicle and the term of loan you should not exceed the number 6. (ie 3 yr car- 3 yr note)
If you can not make these numbers work, I would seriously consider looking for alternative transportation.
Stretched wallets like stretched rubberbands eventually snap. Leave some flexibility, because lots can happen in 3,4,5,6 years such as loss of job, illness, births, pay decrease.
IMHO
Because you are a nice person and you like to give people advice that will help them.
I'm the same way. I work part-time at the Dept. of Agriculture and we often go for walks on the Mall after lunch. I give advice to at least one tourist every day. At least it shows the foreigners that Americans are frendly people.
If you buy a three-year old car with a five-year loan, you will be paying off the car until it is eight years old, most likely one with over 100k miles by the time that you're through with it. I'd be hesitant to do that.
should I get a new 2006 and finance it with a longer term to get the monthly payment around 430.00. If I decide to trade it in I don't want to be upside down on the car.
If you buy a car with a large loan, and finance it over a five year term, chances are very good that the price that a dealer would pay you for that used car is going to put you upside-down. (To hark back to an earlier discussion, this low trade-in price shouldn't be confused with what you would be paid by an insurance company if the car was totalled or stolen.)
To guesstimate what could happen, I would do the following (no, it's not as hard it may sound):
(1) Look at the past history of depreciation of these cars, as well as the projected residual value (the latter can be obtained from a lease guide). Apply the percentages of depreciation obtained here to the MSRP of the new car, and forecast the future trade-in value accordingly. (For example, if you see that 2004 CTS have lost 50% of their value in two years, then assume that the 2006 car will be worth 50% of MSRP two years from now.)
(2) Get an amortization table to model your future loan payments (you can build one in Excel if you know how, or else find one online) based upon the amount of the loan that you would need to buy the new car. (This means that you'll need to estimate what you'd pay for the new car, add any additional costs such as tax, license, etc., then deduct for any trade-in you may have, incentives and rebates, and any down payment.) Use this projected loan balance, combined with the projected interest rate and loan term, to forecast the principal balance of your loan at various points in the future
(3) Compare the forecasted trade-in value that you forecasted during Step 1 with the loan's projected principal balance calculated in Step 2.
Assuming you did a reasonable job of estimating the future trade-in value (which is a crap shoot, but the historical and lease guide data will help), you should get a fair guess (but only a guess) as to whether you will be upside down or not. That being said, I can say with near certainty that the odds of being upside down are almost 100%, because dealers don't like to pay much for trade-ins, particularly on domestics.
After all that, I think that you'll find that the Cadillac is probably going to offer the greatest opportunity to obtain deep discounts, but will also depreciate more quickly.
Also since it is three years old I wouldn't go more than a 3 year loan on the car, and that would be pressing it.
As for the smartbuy I am not sure what that is.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
My first peace of advice is that if the G35 is running issue free (or with minor issues) keep it.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
What would be the fun in that? Seriously though...I have always been very conservative financially, and resisted the "I wants" my entire life (for major things). And let's face it...an Element or CRV isn't exactly what one would refer to as a "major splerge".
Well what fun can you have with the extra cash.
My advice to people would be to keep the car at least a year or two after its paid off investing the car payment money after its paid off. A year or two later you have a much larger down payment to make on a car and you can take out a loan for a year or two less and keep the payments the same. Then invest the funds you would have made in car payments for a future car purchase.
I know a few people who now pay cash for their cars using this. Of course it requires you to keep the same car for 5 or 6 years and it requires discipline, but they do it.
And let's face it...an Element or CRV isn't exactly what one would refer to as a "major splerge".
Not comparing it with a Lexus no. But it is spending money when you really don't need to.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Let's see - Save $25 by running around and wasting 3 hours at the Mass RMV or poke my self in the eye with a stick. Hmm tough decision - I'll take the latter.
Here in MA, luckily dealers are on-line with the RMV and have an inventory of plates but they pay for that service. Or they have a runner who gets in a special line at the RMV and do multiple vehicles at once.
I've lived in 5 different states and have dealt with 5 different DMVs.... Massachusetts is BY FAR the worst! I have never waited nearly as long and accomplished so little at any of the other states' DMVs. I definitely don't miss that part of Massachusetts. :sick:
Bud, have ya ever been to the Florida DMV's...?
Everyone thinks there is alot of retired people in Florida, not true .... it's the people that came in for their June renewal and just got out yesterday .....
Terry :P
In, IL we just pay the fee to the dealer and they slap on a temporary plate and your regular plates are either sent to you or directly to the dealer, and if yer a bit nice..they will even put them on for you while you enjoy a lovely cup of dealer coffee.