Yeah I know but it's still a scam to make an offer that is a lie. You can't make a right out of a wrong IMO.
I hear what you are saying but just because she is naive or gullible does not mean she deserves to be hoodwinked.
You know how it goes, you're shopping for days, you're tired, you think you got a great deal, you get into the closer's office and they work you over on the ropes til you drop.
Furthermore, the dealer who acted completely up front loses the sale. So shall we encourage him to be equally deceptive?
It's a slippery slope, I know, and the woman is somewhat culpable, but still, I don't like seeing business done this way.
Actually I was kind of mad at her, too. But you know, some buyers are gun shy and not apt to believe me any more than anyone else.
It is a bit perverse, if you think about it, when someone calls YOU up, asks for your advice---and you give it in detail, set them all up---and they go do something else after all.
I wouldn't like it either if it happened to someone I knew, but it sounds like the dealership was just doing their job. That is sell as much overpriced stuff as possible to increase their profit margin. You say they were "deceptive", but they gave your friend the price they promised.
Would like to know the details on price under invoice and the add-ons your friend bought. If she got a "impossible" price on the car only, she probably still did pretty well overall... even with the add-ons. i.e If she bought an extended warranty, that would come in handy and is worthwhile. The pin-striping, fabric protection, wax protection and similar add-ons would indeed be fairly worthless.
The Kia dealerships in my area, under one owner, advertise very good prices(* excludes dealer add-ons). You show up and they have this crappy alarm system dealer add-on (swipe a card through a sensor to allow car to start) that adds about $1,400 to the car. It is on every stinking car on their lot. Would be worthless to me, probably cost the dealership 200 or 300 bucks installed.
The problem is I feel confident if she had refused any or all of the mop and glo addons, she wouldn't have gotten the car.
I recall buying a digital camera 4 years ago. I knew exactly the one I wanted. It was available through all kinds of internet sales sites and even NY city store sites at very low prices. The prices were way below the market.
The reports about the vendors when I googled them on the internet were that they won't sell it to you for the advertised price. After entering your order, you get a call that there are all these things you need to buy that add to the price. I believe things like batteries (which come in the box) and strap and ... They would add on extras that were required like lens cleaning cloths and sprays--all kinds of gimmicks. If you refused those, they didn't sell you the camera.
You know what, you did everything right. Don't be mad. Everyone did their job, your dealership gave her a great price, next time you tell them let them know "you can lead a fish to water..."
The other dealership did their job as well, your friend should have known better.
I know how you feel. I have been a cpa specializing in corporate and personal taxes for over 15 years. I have a masters, I give speeches, I teach other cpa's, I can't tell you how many times I get a "friend" calling for some free advice..I get them a detailed answer. Then a few weeks later I ask them how it went, only to find out they discarded my advice because "joe" at the rotary club/bowling alley/garage said he could do it another way.
Hey, let it blow over and ask her to take you out for lunch in her new car...
Oh I don't hold grudges. But I'm not going to give her car advice again. You know, when I engage my friends in the auto business, call 'em up and say "take care of so and so", well, they DO go out of their way---red carpet and all that. I can't expect them to GIVE things away to my friends but they do give them the very best treatment and an honest deal.
So after arranging all that and setting these mechanisms in motion, and "calling in a favor", to have it all tossed away by the friend is quite discouraging.
I had a similar thing last year. With tires. I set up for someone to go to an *excellent* tire place, that gives great service, free tire repairs, courtesy car, clean shop and waiting room, good prices, telephone follow ups, superb alignment equipment, the best balancing machines....
And what does the person do?
Stiffs them, and goes to Costco to save $19 a tire on an older Porsche. AND then have to get it aligned elsewhere. AND badly as it turns out.
Smack me on the head, why don't you?
To bring this all back to the topic at hand----don't just shop price, you have to shop SERVICE as well. Good service is translatable into dollars.
I'd say it's all her fault. The dealership was just trying to maximize profit. I'm not excusing their unethical behavior.
The customer is the one spending their money. It's their responsibility, and their responsibility only, to make sure they're not taken for a ride.
Sounds like your friend had the right idea by consulting with you, but didn't follow all your advice. Hope she learned her lesson, and tells everybody about this bad dealership. :lemon:
Without any details from shifty, it's a bit premature to say the dealership was being unethical. How much did this lady friend pay for the car? What dealer add-ons did she buy? How much did she pay for them? Did she have a need or want for what was sold? As has been said many times, the dealership tries to sell everybody that walks in the extras. They'd be dumb not to.
When I assisted my niece with her Hyundai purchase (looked at Kia), I advised her to pass on the worthless dealer add-ons. Act as if they aren't even there when considering a price. She almost bit on the worthless alarm system add-on at the Kia dealership. Was nice that she listened to ole jip. I saved her a couple thousand bucks. :shades:
You know, when I engage my friends in the auto business, call 'em up and say "take care of so and so", well, they DO go out of their way---red carpet and all that. I can't expect them to GIVE things away to my friends but they do give them the very best treatment and an honest deal.
The problem with the "honest deal" is it is just that, it's neither a great deal or a poor one... just decent. The dealerships definition of what a good deal is will always be a lot more $$$ than what a consumer thinks it should be. That is probably why your friend went somewhere else.
I have strong ties to two general managers at local dealerships. They think $600 over invoice is a fair and honest price for car x. I'm sure for the most part it is, as they have to look at all the overhead and expenses. But, when others are getting car x at $600 below invoice, and still getting good service, well it's a no brainer. The vast majority of the time one is better off financially going in to work their own deal, instead of a friends referral for them to be "taken care of".
Do they still sell VIN etching? I remember a few years ago, I was put through the ringer by my salesman, the SM and another guy about getting vin window etching.
They kept telling me I was foolish for passing up this service, that if my car was stolen this would make it sooo easy to get my car back.
My retort was listen, if my car is stolen I want the check from the insurance agency I don't want the car back!! And don't even get me started on pin stripping and wheel locks!
My wife and I have a friend like that. She has asked me for investment advice a couple of times and then would always find fault or want to argue with whatever I said.
I would like to help her, but now when she asks I just say, sorry, I don't have a clue.
I think the point of me using the term "honest deal" was not so much a dollar amount, but the way she would have been treated at this dealership, at the time of sale and beyond.
Basically, to my mind, she traded away prompt service, courtesy, lack of strong arm tactics, clean waiting rooms, a thorough new car prep and demonstration, and prompt and fair warranty correction in the future, etc. for a lousy $300.
My wife and I have a friend like that. She has asked me for investment advice a couple of times and then would always find fault or want to argue with whatever I said.
Geeze... Your friend sounds like my mother. I finally refused to give her advice at all...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
Service is key. I am sure I paid about $300 more for the Pilot I leased last month. But, the SM was professional, shot straight, and when I made the appointment to come in - everything was ready and i was in and out of the dealership in less than 45 minutes.
And whatever extra I paid it was worth every penny.
Advice to friends-- at their request-- and then thrown away... It just happens over and over. I suspect that many people "poll" their friends until they find one that agrees with their preconceived notions and then they tell themselves they've found good advice at last! And on the other hand, I know that my "very best advice" just doesn't work universally in the lives of all my friends-- but both of those guys should listen to me more! :shades:
I have a vehicle that i owe five thousand more than its worth, due to last chance financing. Can i trade it in without starting upside down on a new loan, or am i stuck with paying this loan off?
Well SOMEBODY has to pay the difference....you can trade it and the dealer will pay it off but he'll just blend the deficit into your new loan, making you more upside down.
Keep in mind that your trade in value will not be the same as "what it's worth" on the retail market, so you may end up being not $5K down, but $7-8K down on a trade in. That's pretty brutal.
I think you're stuck paying it off or paying it further down until you get at least reasonably even on it.
I guess if your credit is better now than it was when you first financed you might give a try re-financing your car loan. Long shot but possible.
My advice is to get some HARD DATA before you make any decisions. That means:
1. research the "book price" (trade in and private party retail) of your car at Edmunds True Market Value
2. go to www.autotrader.com, and using "advanced search" find examples of your exact car, nationwide, and then when you get the long list of comparables, look at the bottom of the page for "average price". This will tell you how close TMV is to nationwide asking prices
3. Calculate your current pay-off balance.
With these numbers, you will at least know "the score" and what you're up against.
Just to add a little more to the good replies you have already gotten. Even if you pulled $5K out of your pocket and traded in on a new vehicle to start off just financing the purchase, you will be in the hole for probably the first 3 years with that one. The one new will depreciate immediately and be worth less than what you paid for it... and it will take you probably 3 years (assuming 5 year loan) to catch up with that depreciation. So, the only way you will get even is to pay off the $5K (whatever it actually is) negative equity on the current vehicle then put perhaps 20% down on the new one, example finance $16K on a vehicle you paid $20K after settling the negative equity.
Does not sound attractive, but once you get down in a hole like this, first step is to get back even, then try and get ahead. Not a quick way to handle this without parting with $8-10K of cash...you can handle over time and spread the cash out, but you won't be getting another vehicle for awhile. Sorry, but that is just the way it works out.
Even with great credit it would be very difficult to roll that much negative equity into another car. The lender would be lending a lot more money than the car is worth.
If you used "last chance" financing I'm guessing your credit is still less than stellar so unless you have the ability to write a huge check to cover the deficit and a down payment, you are probably stuck.
I have a vehicle that i owe five thousand more than its worth, due to last chance financing. Can i trade it in without starting upside down on a new loan
No, unless you have a pocket full of cash to put with it
I felt so much more prepared to shop for a new car after using this site. I had the research on the cars, knew what my old car was worth and what others were paying for the same car. I felt that I was able to make a great deal on a new Volvo XC 60 that is a joy to drive! I couldn't believe I could get this car with more bells and whistles, especially safety features than a "less expensive car" that I commonly see on the road. Internet shopping made it a breeze and the salespeople were much more mellow and less pressuring. This was my first car buying experience on my own and I felt empowered from the knowledge gained from your site! Thank you Edmunds. Heather, Portsmouth, VA
Comments
I hear what you are saying but just because she is naive or gullible does not mean she deserves to be hoodwinked.
You know how it goes, you're shopping for days, you're tired, you think you got a great deal, you get into the closer's office and they work you over on the ropes til you drop.
Furthermore, the dealer who acted completely up front loses the sale. So shall we encourage him to be equally deceptive?
It's a slippery slope, I know, and the woman is somewhat culpable, but still, I don't like seeing business done this way.
I hope you explained what happened to her and how much it cost her.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
It is a bit perverse, if you think about it, when someone calls YOU up, asks for your advice---and you give it in detail, set them all up---and they go do something else after all.
Would like to know the details on price under invoice and the add-ons your friend bought. If she got a "impossible" price on the car only, she probably still did pretty well overall... even with the add-ons. i.e If she bought an extended warranty, that would come in handy and is worthwhile. The pin-striping, fabric protection, wax protection and similar add-ons would indeed be fairly worthless.
The Kia dealerships in my area, under one owner, advertise very good prices(* excludes dealer add-ons). You show up and they have this crappy alarm system dealer add-on (swipe a card through a sensor to allow car to start) that adds about $1,400 to the car. It is on every stinking car on their lot. Would be worthless to me, probably cost the dealership 200 or 300 bucks installed.
The problem is I feel confident if she had refused any or all of the mop and glo addons, she wouldn't have gotten the car.
I recall buying a digital camera 4 years ago. I knew exactly the one I wanted. It was available through all kinds of internet sales sites and even NY city store sites at very low prices. The prices were way below the market.
The reports about the vendors when I googled them on the internet were that they won't sell it to you for the advertised price. After entering your order, you get a call that there are all these things you need to buy that add to the price. I believe things like batteries (which come in the box) and strap and ... They would add on extras that were required like lens cleaning cloths and sprays--all kinds of gimmicks. If you refused those, they didn't sell you the camera.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You know what, you did everything right. Don't be mad. Everyone did their job, your dealership gave her a great price, next time you tell them let them know "you can lead a fish to water..."
The other dealership did their job as well, your friend should have known better.
I know how you feel. I have been a cpa specializing in corporate and personal taxes for over 15 years. I have a masters, I give speeches, I teach other cpa's, I can't tell you how many times I get a "friend" calling for some free advice..I get them a detailed answer. Then a few weeks later I ask them how it went, only to find out they discarded my advice because "joe" at the rotary club/bowling alley/garage said he could do it another way.
Hey, let it blow over and ask her to take you out for lunch in her new car...
So after arranging all that and setting these mechanisms in motion, and "calling in a favor", to have it all tossed away by the friend is quite discouraging.
I had a similar thing last year. With tires. I set up for someone to go to an *excellent* tire place, that gives great service, free tire repairs, courtesy car, clean shop and waiting room, good prices, telephone follow ups, superb alignment equipment, the best balancing machines....
And what does the person do?
Stiffs them, and goes to Costco to save $19 a tire on an older Porsche. AND then have to get it aligned elsewhere. AND badly as it turns out.
Smack me on the head, why don't you?
To bring this all back to the topic at hand----don't just shop price, you have to shop SERVICE as well. Good service is translatable into dollars.
I'd say it's all her fault. The dealership was just trying to maximize profit. I'm not excusing their unethical behavior.
The customer is the one spending their money. It's their responsibility, and their responsibility only, to make sure they're not taken for a ride.
Sounds like your friend had the right idea by consulting with you, but didn't follow all your advice. Hope she learned her lesson, and tells everybody about this bad dealership. :lemon:
You're right on the money.
Without any details from shifty, it's a bit premature to say the dealership was being unethical. How much did this lady friend pay for the car? What dealer add-ons did she buy? How much did she pay for them? Did she have a need or want for what was sold? As has been said many times, the dealership tries to sell everybody that walks in the extras. They'd be dumb not to.
When I assisted my niece with her Hyundai purchase (looked at Kia), I advised her
to pass on the worthless dealer add-ons. Act as if they aren't even there when considering a price. She almost bit on the worthless alarm system add-on at the Kia dealership. Was nice that she listened to ole jip. I saved her a couple thousand bucks. :shades:
The problem with the "honest deal" is it is just that, it's neither a great deal or a poor one... just decent. The dealerships definition of what a good deal is will always be a lot more $$$ than what a consumer thinks it should be. That is probably why your friend went somewhere else.
I have strong ties to two general managers at local dealerships. They think $600 over invoice is a fair and honest price for car x. I'm sure for the most part it is, as they have to look at all the overhead and expenses. But, when others are getting car x at $600 below invoice, and still getting good service, well it's a no brainer. The vast majority of the time one is better off financially going in to work their own deal, instead of a friends referral for them to be "taken care of".
They kept telling me I was foolish for passing up this service, that if my car was stolen this would make it sooo easy to get my car back.
My retort was listen, if my car is stolen I want the check from the insurance agency I don't want the car back!! And don't even get me started on pin stripping and wheel locks!
I would like to help her, but now when she asks I just say, sorry, I don't have a clue.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Basically, to my mind, she traded away prompt service, courtesy, lack of strong arm tactics, clean waiting rooms, a thorough new car prep and demonstration, and prompt and fair warranty correction in the future, etc. for a lousy $300.
I have no problem with them selling add ons.
Geeze... Your friend sounds like my mother. I finally refused to give her advice at all...
Mine: 1995 318ti Club Sport-2020 C43-1996 Speed Triple Challenge Cup Replica
Wife's: 2021 Sahara 4xe
Son's: 2018 330i xDrive
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
And whatever extra I paid it was worth every penny.
"If you want to develop a great reputation for wisdom, find out what it is people what to do and then advise them to do it".
It's the rule of 21s.. Keep asking 21 people, until someone tells you what you want to hear..
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Keep in mind that your trade in value will not be the same as "what it's worth" on the retail market, so you may end up being not $5K down, but $7-8K down on a trade in. That's pretty brutal.
I think you're stuck paying it off or paying it further down until you get at least reasonably even on it.
I guess if your credit is better now than it was when you first financed you might give a try re-financing your car loan. Long shot but possible.
My advice is to get some HARD DATA before you make any decisions. That means:
1. research the "book price" (trade in and private party retail) of your car at Edmunds True Market Value
http://www.edmunds.com/tmv/used/index.html
2. go to www.autotrader.com, and using "advanced search" find examples of your exact car, nationwide, and then when you get the long list of comparables, look at the bottom of the page for "average price". This will tell you how close TMV is to nationwide asking prices
3. Calculate your current pay-off balance.
With these numbers, you will at least know "the score" and what you're up against.
3.
Maybe you can get one of those nice bailout packages from Obama.
Does not sound attractive, but once you get down in a hole like this, first step is to get back even, then try and get ahead. Not a quick way to handle this without parting with $8-10K of cash...you can handle over time and spread the cash out, but you won't be getting another vehicle for awhile. Sorry, but that is just the way it works out.
Bill
If you used "last chance" financing I'm guessing your credit is still less than stellar so unless you have the ability to write a huge check to cover the deficit and a down payment, you are probably stuck.
No, unless you have a pocket full of cash to put with it