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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories
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It seems you could have run the VIN through the Mazda dealership before buying the van. Also, seems your dealership would have had a very good case if they had decided to pursue it in court.
But, the bad a/c was your dealerships fault for not cheking it out. I'm sure your guys have heard the "just needs a recharge" too many times to be fooled by it.
Just a quick thing on trannies. Several years ago my wife really wanted to get an SUV. Well we were ready to get one and they were checking our trade in. They came back and told us they couldn't do much on the trade in because the transmission was about to go. Well we didn't buy and left the store, something like 4 years and 60K miles later the transmission still hasn't gone out.
Every now and again I am tempted to go back and ask them when my tranny is supposed to go.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Since I started reading the Craigslist auto ads. Have you seen some of the fiction on there? :surprise: :lemon:
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
Depends on the vehicle. I can state for a fact, that any leased Truck or large SUV that's now coming off lease is going to have a residual that's nowhere near what the vehicle will sell for. The residual the leasing company put on it 2-3 years ago, isn't going to remotely cover the delta between what the vehicle was supposed to be worth, to what the vehicle is actually worth in today's Truck/SUV economy.
The residual could have been nudged a little high to "subsidize" the lease.
The residual is part of the agreement between the original parties, the lessor and the lessee. It is an agreed upon price that is set at the beginning of the lease, as such it is influenced by market conditions at the beginning of the lease. It may bear only passing resemblance to the actual market value of the car at the end of the lease.
Edit: gg beat me to it, but in my defense I'm watching the Ryder Cup as I type and I already don't type fast. :P
Nobody is going to "run" a VIN number through another dealer's service department and no dealer is going to try to "pursue" anything. I was only trying to point out just how rotten some people can be.
And, yes, we "should" have checked out the A/C but who has time for this? This is why we assume the worst when we see something wrong.
If it "just needs a charge" we have to assume the whole system is shot. If a check engine light is on or an ABS light, we can't just assume as the customer suggests, " It's probably just a loose wire".
When we ask if the timing belt has been changed and we hear " Oh, I'm sure it has been" this means it hasn't been changed. etc etc...
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Thanks, that was an actual Columbo script modified to make it germane. One never wants to deal wth Columbo, one wants to run and hide. Lest they hear, just one more thing..... credit to gg for leading us down memory lane. But back to car strategies, in the haggle process it is important never to show interest.
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MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I'm interest in the used car buying version and I suspect isellhondas is capable with the new car buying version.
Email to my username at yahoo dot com and you'll have me--or send email to my carspace.com box from your carspace email account.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Do you have any idea how many sites like that one have come and gone over the years?
Guests that come into a dealership with a chip on their shoulder who have read all the "expert advice" and think they can talk down to everyone, are terrible to deal with. Not because they beat our "tricks" or make us sell a car for nothing, they'll bad mouth the dealership no matter how good of a deal they got. Truth is, most places won't even bargain with someone like that. No one NEEDS the business that bad.
As far as the "dealer extras" in the f&i office, everything serves a purpose and has value to someone, that's why its offered. Of course there is a profit, its a business not a charity, but people think they're empty products that do nothing but make money for the dealership. If you keep a car 6 years, why wouldn't you want a 6 year warranty? If you're doing a 6 year loan and not putting any $$ down, why wouldn't you want GAP? All these things are offered to every customer to make sure they're happy and taken care of throughout their ownership so they'll come back later and buy another car.
There are no "backroom games or conspiracies" in car dealerhips. You wanna know the real truth about what goes on, talk to anyone in MANAGEMENT who currently works at a NEW CAR dealerhip. I'll think you'll find that most of the stuff you hear is on these sights is pretty rediculous. FYI "confessions of a car salesman and F&I manager" is a load of B.S. The originator of that story should be writing hollywood scripts with the amount of crap that was in that. If it IS true, shouldn't he retroactively pay back all those people that he "robbed" over the years?
If anyone wants some REAL advice, contact me, i'd be more than happy to answer ANY questions you should have.
Lets put it this way, here if you sell 150 cars a month every month for 25 years and pissed off everyone you sold to and they each told 10 people about it less than 5% of the population would hear about it.
There was one well known dealership here that had such a bad reputation that when it was sold the new owner moved it and changed the name. Yet the old owners went 20-25 years a huge success.
If you keep a car 6 years, why wouldn't you want a 6 year warranty?
The big question is why would I want a car that needs a 6 year warranty?
Cars like most things either break down very early on due to defective parts/workmanship or much much later due to wear and tear. I would suspect that 99% of cars would need warranty work either in the first 20K miles or after 100+K miles.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Sorry mike, couldn't resist. It's a race to see how fast I can stab the next button.They have to work, or dealerships wouldn't pay out the bucks.
Tell me about it, we have a well known dealer here that recently had an add promoting $99 down $99/month for a new car.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Perhaps because any manufacturer that would offer such a warranty is very confident that the car is reliable?
tidester, host
SUVs and Smart Shopper
Perhaps because any manufacturer that would offer such a warranty is very confident that the car is reliable?
But the bigger question is, if it's so reliable and the manufacturer is so confident of that, why not make it free? I think the original question (up top) means "why do I have to buy an additional warranty for this car?" Offering the warranty with the car as a marketing gimmick (Hyundai/Kia 100K powertrain) is totally different from "offering" the customer the chance to increase their cash outlay for an additional three years of "coverage" (which, when you read the fine print, probably covers nothing).
just my two cents
Yes, I do honestly believe that some owners see it in a quite different way. For them first and foremost objective is to recoup the money as quickly as possible, which usually leads to using any means that are legal (or not, in some) to increase profits. You can do that either through "positive" growth (customer satisfaction) or quite opposite, through "single score jackpot" system, which will maximize profit on every single unit regardless of said satisfaction.
As far as the "dealer extras" in the f&i office, everything serves a purpose and has value to someone, that's why its offered.
Of course, there is some value. Can of "pain sealant", can of "fabric protector", $7/hour for a lot boy to apply it. All grand total of $50 cost. Price tag : $399. Wow, that is some value.
Of course there is a profit, its a business not a charity, but people think they're empty products that do nothing but make money for the dealership.
Just see above. Profit is a good thing. Adding $50 of cost to increase the final price by $400 is another. Of course, it's a free country, so if somebody wants it, I have no problem with that. For me, piling 2 grand of add-ons on $16K car shifts its price to territory that another product becomes more attractive.
If you keep a car 6 years, why wouldn't you want a 6 year warranty? If you're doing a 6 year loan and not putting any $$ down, why wouldn't you want GAP?
I may, just not at prices that they are offered in my town.
Again - the problem is not in offering of those products - it's in their price (at least in eye of the beholder) and tactics used to push them. There is one thing if a nice F&I guy pulls out a board showing pallete of his products, gives me a speach how valuable they are, I say yes or no and we move on - it's quite another if courtesy of SET every single Corolla and Camry on every single lot within 100 miles has $799 Toyoguard package installed "for my convenience", or if the nice F&I guy starts telling me I HAVE TO buy his warranty to get approved on the loan. See the difference?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Where I bristle is when a magic "paint sealant", by a less than interested lot guy, becomes an $800 upcharge. Or, when a 15 minute spritz application of "stain protectant" becomes a $500 upcharge.
Or, when window etching becomes a $300 "theft deterrent" upcharge. Or when a 5 year $1,000 extended warranty really only covers a couple of years after the manufacturers warranty expires.
For the new car buying novice, these things may look to be a "good deal". But, let's call them what they are.
That $800 "magic" paint sealant is little more than a $50 wax job. That $500 "stain guard" is little more than a 15 minute "spritz" of the interior with a $5 can of 3M teflon. I've never been able to ascertain whether "window etching" really does deter theft (I always wondered why a thief wouldn't just break all the windows to get around the "etching").
Oh....and the extended warranty? While it can happen that something catastrophic could happen to make the warranty worthwhile, the odds of that happening is fairly remote. And, if it does happen, you've probably got a lemon on your hands. Or, those maladies will show themselves way before the manufacturers warranty expires.
So, are they of value to the buyer? Or, in reality, to the dealership?
It's like going to a poker game. You don't know how the game is played, you'll end up losing your shirt, and or bra. :sick:
No matter what the owner intends, the fact is a lot of people feel like they are not dealt with fairly. Sometimes it's true sometimes it's not. The dealer may WANT you to be happy but if you catch your salesman telling fibs to bump you, it's not gonna happen. I'm not even sure if making your best gross is compatible with 100% customer satisfaction.
"....Guests who come into a dealship with a chip on their shoulder..."
You see these idiots in all walks of life. They are usually working off their anger because of something totally unrelated. They make life a pain.
"...As far as the "dealer extras"..."
No problem. If someone sees value in them go ahead try to sell them. Just don't pre-install them and tell me I have to take them.
2019 Kia Soul+, 2015 Mustang GT, 2013 Ford F-150, 2000 Chrysler Sebring convertible
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
OK, I’m waiting for you’re reply to any of the responses you’ve gotten.
They were honest rebuttals to your post without personal bashing. I’ve seen these guys get a lot rougher than the responses you got.
What are you a hit and run poster? :confuse:
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Of course! Didn't you all check to see the "member since" date? It was the same date as the post. I don't think we'll get any more purchasing strategies from that poster.
Here's one though: when you're in the F & I office, you will offered the following items (usually)
1. Financing options
2. Extended warranty
3. Rust and Dust protection
4. Mop and Glo protection
5. Window etching
This is by no means a complete list, but they are probably the most common offerings. I use the word "offerings" because that's what they are - products offered by the dealer for an extra cost to you. This is to increase their profit. I'm not saying that they are all bad products, but they are all designed to increase dealer profit, and you can get all of these products elsewhere if you are willing to do the searching for better deals. With a little research, you can get all of these products cheaper than the dealer price. That's all we're saying about these extras - they are extra. The dealer has every right to sell them, and every right to a reasonable mark up for profit. If we the consumers deem those prices unreasonable, we don't buy them.
Still, I've got no place to do a proper "hand wash" myself. So, I ventured over to the Honda store to score a free car wash.
I passed the garage where the new cars are "spit shined" after they're sold and prepped for delivery to their new owners. I saw a guy in the garage who was prepping a new Civic. I stopped to talk to him.
I wondered what he would charge me to put a wax job on an Accord.
He stated he'd do it for $25.
REALLY?
I quizzed him about the type of wax he would use. He said the same stuff that they use when they sell their "paint sealant" on a new car. But, he'd have to do it "on the side"...early in the a.m. when the sales side of the store wasn't yet open.
I don't know what the store's policy is about striking a private deal with their "mop and glo" guy. But, that shouldn't be a concern of mine anyway. To me, he's just an enterprising young man.
He's doing my car tomorrow a.m., at the dealership.
What are those paint sealant applications worth again?
Anyway, it looks like a bunch of people either need to buy used cars from a private party or go far away from where they live to buy a new car. Where i live, the "dealer fee" is $75. The warranty's offered are FULL BUMPER TO BUMPER and cover 100% of parts and labor. As far as the bashing of "paint sealant" etc, etc, etc, do you guys picket the local zeibart shops? Probably not, the products MY dealerhip offers are the exact same as zeibart, but no body seems to crawl all over there [non-permissible content removed] about what they offer. No dealer has a $50 product and sells it for $800, thats insane to think that. There are bigger fish to fry in the world, stop worrying about paint sealant people!!
Warrantys. The whole "if you're selling me a good car, i shouldn't need a warranty," and other similar responses are rediculous. No man made machine is 100% foolproof, computers break, washers, dryers, toasters, EVERYTHING at some point fails, its a fact of life. There is no SET time when its going to happen, not the first 25000 miles or around 100000 miles, its totally random. Any intelligent adult should be able to understand that. A car that is 99.9% perfect will be broke down 2 days out of 6 years. Keep in mind that number doubles for every .1% of inneffectiveness. Cars nowadays are very mechanically sound, thats why you're seeing long powertrain warrantys, but the 10,000 computers and electrical components can fail at any time, THATS where an "extended warranty" comes into play. As far as the price, banks cap the amount you can charge for a warranty, and its usually around $2000, but with labor rates around $100/hr, and part costs rising it really doesn't take much fill that $2000. If you feel warranty's are nothing but a ripoff, fine, but DO NOT come back to the dealership when the bumper to bumper warranty expires and complain that something is wrong. And more importantly don't spread the word that the "evil dealership" screwed you over! People act like dealerships set a timer for things to go wrong on cars, it amazes me after all these years.
Buying a car isn't as complicated as people make it out to be. There is no "game" involved, you wanna buy a car, we wanna sell you one. Treat the salesperson with respect and you'll get it in return. Research the products, not the process; do you take the same approach when buying electronics, clothes, or groceries. The profit margins in those products are HUGE compared to cars, and you buy those every day!
To those that claim your local dealers are as bad as you describe, go somewhere else. For every bad dealership, they're 1000 good ones. They aren't very hard to find. Hopefully some people actually read and think about what i wrote, i tried to be as clear and respectfull as i could.
We're fortunate that the salesfolk who participate here are the good guys, and we look forward to hearing your sales (or F&I, in your case) stories.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
>Where i live, the "dealer fee" is $75.
I think that's very practical, especially compared to many mentioned here on Edmunds. Congratulations. Is that the document fee? That's what I'm assuming.
>picket the local zeibart shops? Probably not, the products MY dealerhip offers are the exact same as zeibart, but no body seems to crawl all over there [non-permissible content removed] about what they offer
I think the difference is they're buying a car from a dealership; they're not buying the car from Ziebart or they would complain. I avoid them as do many people I know, except for some who had pickup beds sprayed with a liner. But they have been over-priced in the past.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Some people swear on "zeibarting" thier car. Honestly, our cost on a paint/fabric/rust/undercoating package is $359, and we retail it for $599. Thats not an out of line profit if you ask me. FYI, there is A LOT more than just spraying the seats with scotchguard and "paying a lot kid" to apply a $5 jar of wax.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Like I once said, one thing is to have a nice conversation about value of GAP, extended warranty and paint sealant, after which I buy it or not, quite another is to have it preinstalled for my "convenience", just like SET and bunch of others do here.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
ARE YOU KIDDING????????????????????????????????????????
do you take the same approach when buying electronics, clothes, or groceries. The profit margins in those products are HUGE compared to cars, and you buy those every day!
As a matter of fact, I do. I look products, then research stores, their prices et. Unlike car dealers, all stores post their real (means final) prices straight on top of the product so I need to do is compare Best Buy, Sears, and couple of online sites and I know exactly what I'm going to pay, to the penny. I know there won't be "shelving fee", "store floor plan fee", etc added, for most they may push a warranty. I know when they post $399 they mean just that (most of the time, anyway). I know I will have to pay just tax and perhaps delivery fee, if needed.
Conversely, in car business, posting $21975 on a car can mean practically anything from $18000 to $25000 or even wider, depending how you cut it, what you include, etc. How in the world will I know how much should I really spend if I don't know the process and actual demand? The key is to be reasonable in expectations, so I don't get ripped off (pay significantly over market value) and conversely don't expect discount that simply cannot be granted.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BTW, you never said if your store puts that great package (that the dumb or evil mfr refuses to put in the factory) before consumer asks for it, or after...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
1. Financing options
2. Extended warranty
3. Rust and Dust protection
4. Mop and Glo protection
5. Window etching
I'd add 6. Lojack
You can compare best buy with sears, etc. but the truth is the $1500 tv you bought costs about $800. I worked at best buy during college ad the mark-up on most of that stuff is close to 100%!! I know that's not the exact same as a car, but that'd be like a dealership making 10 grand on a $25000 car. 99.9% of consumers pay the retail price of electronics without batting an eye, but won't do the same on a car. i know its a higher dollar amount, but its the same thing. Everyone is concerned with the profit a dealership makes, but don't seem to care about the profit everyone else makes. One year at best buy while working the day after thanksgiving they made over $500,000 of profit in ONE DAY. There'd be people with flaming sticks if a car dealership did that in one day!
My biggest issue is the people who say, "extended warrantys, GAP, credit insurance, etc. are all junk and no one should ever buy them." Thats a VERY ignorant approach. I appreciate you not having that mentality, but you're in the monority with your thinking.
That's 66% profit margin (a bit less if you take into account the labor costs). I'm not saying it is out or it isn't out of line.
But I bet the profit margin on the actual car is nowhere near that, right?
I don't mind when they offer it to me and I have the option to decline. It's when the 'extras' are pre-installed in the car. At that point, my only option is to not buy the car (which is what I do).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
BTW - good for you. If you are able to legally and non-coercively convince people into buying your back-end product, I just say more power to you - and it's not sarcastic.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Ziebart franchises have come and gone around here (SW OH)...at least in the traditional sense. You can say that once the car manufacturers stated that no rustproofing was needed on their cars, they either had to change their business model. Or, they had to specialize in something other than rustproofing. Matter of fact, some manufacturers have come out to say that the typical aftermarket rustproofing would do more harm than good.
I don't even know if you can still find one of their franchises around here, anymore.
I've yet to find any "magic" elixir that has lasted the lifetime of my car when it comes to waxes (or sealants). Truth told, I've yet to find anything better than a boutique wax called Zaino as far as durability.
I've also seen the "sealant" type applications come and go. I remember a sealant called "Duramax". Haven't seen it around in awhile. I've also seen some purported sealants that allegedly say they are made of Teflon. Problem there is, even DuPont, the maker of Teflon has stated.... "The addition of a Teflon fluoro-polymer resin does nothing to enhance the properties of a car wax. We have no data that indicates the use of Teflon is beneficial in car waxes." So much for the sealants sold at dealerships that purport 5 year, even lifetime benefits of these types of aftermarket applications.
So the claims at dealerships seem to be of a dubious nature when selling their waxes or sealants.
Same goes for "stainguard" types of interior protectants that are sold at dealerships.
A car that is 99.9% perfect will be broke down 2 days out of 6 years.
What we don't know is if those 2 days of breakdown will be some sort of catastrophic failure of a key component. Or, something as simple as a $2 blown fuse. Needless to say, you can make an awful lot of mechanical repairs for the $2,000 cost of your extended warranty. Plus, with the extended warranty, the consumer is betting that something catastrophic will occur, which is statistically unlikely.
I do agree that there are many more ethical dealerships....those that truly do take customer satisfaction very seriously, than there are uncaring, even unethical ones.
We understand that it's your job to show the value of these "dealer add-ons" and extended warranties. From what you've stated, it sounds like you're good at it, too. For that, I commend you.
But, for those of us who've bought a lot of cars (like me and many others here), we've found extended warranties, dealer add-ons, protection packages, are at best, a crap shoot as to their worth and effectiveness. That doesn't mean that they have no worth to someone, somewhere.
Plus, we've all been part of the "hard sell" to get us to buy some of them. Not saying you're part of that group, either. I think you add all those factors in, and you can see how some of us are jaded when it comes to buying aftermarket anything, or extended warranties.