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Purchasing Strategies - Questions & Success Stories
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Compared to the typical Buick buyer...68/65 is a young whippersnapper!!
Buick sells more cars to people over 80 than peeople under 40.
:surprise:
No way! Do the automakers (or dealers) actually track demographic information such as this?
No way! Do the automakers (or dealers) actually track demographic information such as this?
I think that the original post was hyperbole.
What is kind of weird this year is that five of the ten college interns we have have hired this summer are driving either Buicks and Oldsmobiles.
Last summer, the hot car among the college interns were souped up police cars (mostly Caprices).
I'd like to see the traditional U.S. companies do better. If there is indeed a trend that younger buyers are looking at some of the traditional U.S. brands, well, good for them. Could be a hopeful sign.
they sure do....and alot more than that. when your investing billions of dollars to get cars to market you can bet they research everything to death....OTOH sometimes focus groups and research can be very wrong.
I just got a new product and with it came a marketing book. It included 4 pages of exactly who the target buyer is...their ages, income, lifestyle, education, psychographics, media habits, etc....its very interesting.
A few months back I posted the target customer for a Mazda5 and many of the folks replied that it described them quite well.
Actually a few years ago auto news had some of the demographic stuff and the ages I quoted for Buick were accurate...Since then they added Tiger Woods and some product to attract younger buyers but the huge majority of Buick and mercury buyers are substantially older than other brands.
Same with Ford when we got our Focus ZX5 a year later.
But, like anything, I'm sure there are those who break those molds - a youngster anyone under 35, let's say - who buys a new Buick and the 70 year old who buys a Scion xB.
The TMV for the 2006 Hyundai Sonata Limited in the color I chose is $19,619 with the $2,500 rebate (MSRP $23,495) but I paid $18,300 !!!! I’m sure I could have gotten it for a little less, (how much less?, I don’t know because I didn’t try), but since the color I wanted, Aquamarine, (didn’t want black, white, golden beige, silver or any other color that was almost black) was only available at this dealer and he only had one like this and because I felt this was a pretty good deal, I went for it. This was all done over the phone and was painless. No real time spent, just one quick call back (which he said he would make within 20 minutes after he went to a higher authority) after I refused his first offer of $19,000.
My thoughts on negotiating are, do your homework then if you really want a good deal and your offer was not accepted and it was not ridiculous, leave and wait for a call back. If you don’t get one, your offer was probably too low and/or the dealer doesn’t want to sell at that price until he has to. As for the above scenario, I knew my offer was not ridiculous. Since the 2007’s will surely be out by September, I really bought towards the end of the model year while there is still a good selection, just a little earlier than those ‘year-end-sales’ that dealers aren’t willing to advertise right now and the dealer confirmed this by accepting my offer of $18,300. If he didn’t, I was gone.
There is ALWAYS another piece of sheet metal on wheels just down the road that will make you just as happy.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Seems to me that the Edmunds trade-in numbers don't usually match reality when buying a new car. What other reasons might their be?
I'm thinking of trading in a 1999 Dodge Grand Caravan SE and am looking for accurate figures...
Assuming that it's accurate, TMV is an average figure. What it doesn't tell you is the spread among those prices.
If you are a savvy buyer with a goal of paying the lowest price, the average price is going to be above what you'd want to pay, by definition. Car sales prices are often all over the board -- some buyers negotiate well and pay relatively little, while others pay quite a bit more than necessary -- so you shouldn't increase your price based upon what the "dumb money" spends on its car purchases.
Besides reinforcing the view that car salesmen lie a lot - which surprises me that they want to validate that opinion, but they do - it does mean that you need to take any TMV figure with a pretty large grain of salt, anyway. It's helpful to know, it gives you a general idea if a particular model is selling at a big discount or not, but it's not a number written in stone.
TMV for the car I just bought (Nissan 350z) was a couple thousand more than I paid, too. Nevertheless, it was helpful to me to see what that number was - confirmed that the 2005 Z's were being discounted a fair amount and that my deal was a good one, probably about as good as would be possible.
For one, let's remember that the dealers here are claiming that these supposed too-good-to-be-true deals being completed by other dealerships, not by them. What they are effectively saying is, I can't match the other guy's price because he's ripping you off, but I am being honest by charging more. They make these claims to drive business to their own dealerships, not to give you an insider's view of the business.
For another, I'm not seeing this alleged practice result in new cars being blown out at ridiculously low prices that are out of line with the lowest end of the market prices, or at prices so low that would otherwise skew TMV averages significantly below market norms. Even if you review varous prices paid forums on the internet, those who are claiming to have paid at the bottom end of the range are not claiming to have paid that little for their cars.
Here's a thought -- yes, dealers do play with the trade-in and sales prices in order to impact an outcome, but the manipulation of that spread isn't going to impact these reported new car price numbers very much, if at all. An occasional outlier across a pool of data is not going to impact the result all that much.
And more to the point, if you are buying a car that is not particularly hot (and most cars are not hot), you should be able to buy it at a near-invoice price, less incentives, regardless of what the TMV happens to be. Don't worry about what everybody else is paying, just focus on what the very best negotiators can pay, and you will do much better.
or at prices so low that would otherwise skew TMV averages significantly below market norms.
My point was that the TMV is likely to be, if anything, HIGHER than what the real average price is. Which I think is also your position?
I paid about $2,000 or so less than TMV, and about $1,000 less than what the salesman originally said was "rock bottom price." Based on what others have paid, and based on ads I've seen, I still believe I got a good deal.
I would be wary of believing that those buyers who paid the very lowest prices only got those deals by being duped on their trade-ins, as some of the salespeople would claim.
As for TMV, I may have misunderstood your point. My point is that if you assume it is accurate, then TMV is an average. Because car prices very quite a bit from deal to deal, the average price is going to be calculated based upon a broad pool of deals that include some that were negotiated well, some that were negotiated quite poorly and many that were just mediocre.
My goal is to pay a price that is well below average, not just average. I'm more interested in what the bottom 5-10% of buyers are paying, who give me a better idea of what I can aim for, than the overall pool of buyers that includes some people who paid a lot more than I need to. My goal is to be match or beat the "A" students, not to be a "C" student.
It's a guideline, that's all, just one data point in the research.
Why dealers do things like that. I had a cousin one time was upside down on his trade in. After the deal was made the wrote the paperwork up increasing the price of the car and the trade in by the same amount explaining that it would be easier to get a better loan if the selling price of the car was more than the value of the loan. Doesn't rally matter as the cost less the trade in didn't change any (and IL charges tax on the price less trade in).
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Here's a theory -- if a buyer is savvy enough to negotiate a rock bottom price, that person is not as likely to have the wool pulled over their eyes on a trade-in. I'd bet the buyer who knows so little about his trade-in as to let that happen is not going to be the same buyer who cuts the low-price deal.
See, that's EXACTLY what I was talking about. To your cousin, it didn't matter; his loan was the same amount. But when those figures get entered into sales data, it shows that the car was selling for a higher price than it really was. When enough dealers do that, then that "higher price" gets calculated into things like the TMV and other sales figures, and shows that Hotmobiles are selling for xxx-inflated price, when the true figure is actually less.
So that's exactly why the TMV or other figures should NOT be looked at as truly, 100% accurate, average of prices paid. Who knows how much fudging there is on any particular model - maybe not enough to make a difference. But surely there is *some,* so people would be foolish to totally rely on these numbers as hard-and-fast truth.
And then salesmen who wonder why their profession has the reputation of being filled with liars and fudgers-of-the-truth - should look in the mirror and see what they've contributed to that perception.
Actually if has a neutral effect since the increase in the sales price is offset by the increase in the trade in value.
But I also know people who have gotten great deals of cars and were raked over the coals on the trade in.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
It's neutral to the overall transaction, but the sales price component of the deal increases.
Bianca's point is that if you have a lot of transactions like that, the TMV average is going to be misleadingly high, because TMV won't take these other factors into account. If this sort of thing happens often enough, then yes, the TMV figure would overstate the true average.
So buyers come in to the dealerships and say, "See, kbb (or whatever) says 2000 Hotmobiles are worth $xxxx" and the dealer says "Oh, that's a ridiculously inflated figure."
Well, again, garbage in, garbage out. If you can't keep the system honest, then the figures obtained are going to be a little sketchy, at best.
That's the million dollar question. Why doesn't Edmunds TMV show the spread? If they are getting sales numbers, why not break it down into percentages that are helpful to the more sophisicated buyers.
The prices paid forums can be benefical, though it is difficult to find someone who has purchased the exact model, with the exact options, in exactly the same region/area you live in to get a really accurate price.
Some prices paid forums have a large number of posts which make it easier to find the low end of "the spread". Others have hardly any posts at all.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
Who advertises on this site?
Now do you know why there is not more detailed data given?
From my experience buying our last two cars, the Prices Paid forum has the best information, no matter what the sales people say.
I would say that yours being able to get simple deals (cash or cash plus trade) is more of exception than rule. It happens often enough to be a good goal but it must be understood that it might not be that easy to get for everybody.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
WHERE do these TMV numbers come from?
I mean, dealers don't devulge what their customers pay.
Do they call the customers afterwards and ask? I doubt this since most people would tell them (if they even knew)..." That's none of your business!"
I'm not saying they aren't fairly accurate. They can be pretty accurate but sometimes a ways off.
And customers are funny...they will wave these in my face and in their other hand, they are waving another printout showing the highest possible trade in value for their old car they could find on the internet!
As far as the Prices Paid forums...I think most of the posters are telling the truth but there are always a few in there that "never happened".
One upmanship I believe.
From Edmunds re: used car TMV:
Where do the prices come from? For each vehicle model, Edmunds Data Services collects data pertaining to supply, demand, vehicle auction figures, color, region, and actual transaction prices from the marketplace, and runs it all through Edmunds' proprietary statistical model. The resulting figures are updated weekly to provide pricing information that truly reflects the current used vehicle market.
Honestly, I don't know what that means.
A couple of guesses:
-Dealers advertising on this site might swap data as part of the relationship with Edmunds
-For those states that disclose license-registration fees and assess those fees based upon sales price, you could back into the purchase price based upon the fees and taxes. Not sure if this is available, though.
-Contacting buyers for pricing data. A source such as Polk would have registration information available for buyers in most states. (Incidentally, this is how JD Power finds many of the owners whom it surveys.)
I'm not sure if Edmunds does any of the above or not. I'd be curious to know.
Of course they will. Why not? There is no jail time for trying to get a better price, is there? The same way the dealer will wave a black/yellow/green/pink book to show the customer lowest possible trade they think the customer will accept. Whatever suits each. Both sides may attempt to use that tactic, but bottom line is how much A is willing to pay and B is willing to sell for. All those books, TMV, CIA, FBI and "prices Paid" is just a help tool - to be used in conjunction with brain and judgement.
The book may say it's worth 20K, but if the dealer has already five of those and they have been sitting for three months, he is not going to take it. On the other hand, he may attempt to "steal" something that is worth more and desirable, but if the customer calls the bluff, the dealer will likely come to terms fairly soon.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I suppose dealers could disclose actual prices paid as long as they didn't disclose the names of the people who bought the cars.
As far as an outside source contacting buyers, I guess this is possible but I have never heard of this happening.
I don't have a new car. I don't even have a new car quote under MSRP. How the heck do you get anyone to pay attention to you?
I understand that people don't take internet bidding emails that seriously. I tried that first, got 4 quotes total, in the format of MSRP - $1000 + $699 dealer processing fee + $399 document fee = MSRP + $100. Then I tried sending target price emails, with a dialogue something like: I want x car with y options for $z (which is a little less than I expect to pay) and the response is a "special internet price" of MSRP +$100. I mean, come on, these cars aren't made of gold.
I have no desire to talk to these dealers on the phone. I don't want to go to my local dealership. My first experience trying the "normal" negotiation process resulted in an illegal credit check and resulting stalkerish knowledge of the salesperson about my personal life. I know what I want, and I don't need to waste anyone's time.
How can I get real prices without selling my soul? I've been driving the same car for a decade. Maybe it'll last another one.
I have no desire to talk to these dealers on the phone. I don't want to go to my local dealership.
At some point, you must deal with the dealer. You have a few choices:
-Try to find a dealer with an internet sales department.
-Buy from an autobuying service or car broker.
-Accept the game for what it is, and go car shopping the normal way.
Personally, I'd advise accepting things as they are, and constructing an effective deal using tried-and-true methods for haggling. The auto broker will insert a commission (and last minute price increases may be attempted), and whether there is a dealer in your market that truly supports its online department will vary, depending upon where you are.
A fair bit of advice is included earlier in this thread. I personally think getting the lowest price possible is actually quite easy...but you have to accept that dealerships function in certain ways, like it or not, and that you have to play the game correctly in order to win it. If you fight the tide, you'll be pushed around and soaked pretty quickly, but make the game work for you and you'll find it fairly painless and actually entertaining.
There is not a lot of space between invoice and the MSRP on a 3 (a little more than 1k in most cases) and as far as I know the car has never carried rebates, so even MSRP isn't a terrible deal. Carsdirect shows them selling down here at $600 under MSRP, for instance.
Good luck!
As for the Civic, plenty of people on the "prices paid" forum seemed to get halfway decent deals. I thought by waiting until the near-end of the model year, I could save a little $$. Also, the inventories here for both the Civic and the 3S are pretty high. For the Civics, between the dealers I targeted, they have about 80 total listed on their websites. For the 3S, there are about 150 5 door MT's in central Florida.
As for playing the "game," I understand where it comes from. But the "game" is also not very nice to young girls, so do I need my dad to go with me and strong arm a salesperson to get a fair price? Anyway, I live 1-2 hours from the major markets (Tampa, Orlando, Daytona, Jacksonville) so I can't just expect to spend an afternoon at this.
In all honesty, now I understand why more women buy Saturns. :surprise:
I'm with Socal on "accepting game as it is", but you may try to lay some ground rules for yourself to follow before you enter the place and stick to them.
Since you already have the check and know what you want, I have a feeling that you may want to use "Bobst's" method (named after one of our frequent posters). Show up, ask for the config you want (no deviations as they would change the price), make an offer that you think is loq but acceptable to them and if refused simply leave (don't pretend to leave - do it for real). If they run after you - come back and do not budge, if they don't - go to another place with an offer higher by a $100-$200 and do it again. The only catch is if you want something less than common, you may have to be able to make quick calculations on site - perhaps you could develop two-three acceptable configs and price them accordingly.
Don't give up, but the net does not work, you have to face them. I think in your case "Bobst's" method may be the way to go, as it minimizes "back and forth" with them - you simply make a professional offer and accept the outcome whatever it is. The only catch is a predetermined self-discipline to not be sidetracked onto something else or add-ons. Your blank check is a perfect tool. Be sure - you having it (you may even show it to them) is a powerful tool, as they know if they let you leave somebody else will get the business they could have gotten.
I feel your pain on those fees - in Florida there is no cap on them, which opens customers to "fee extraction". Some dealers put some really ridiculous amounts, like $599 or $699 (common for volume imports). OTD strategy may be the way to go. I would figure what you think is a reasonable price to pay, add state sales taxes (6% state plus county on first $5k) and tag allowance. If you feel generous, add a hundred or two for the "fee allowance", as something between 200 and 300 is "Florida's reasonable" amount, but you don't have to. Get that number and stick to it as a total - let them structure it however they want it. You don't care - if you know $17,001 OTD is good, so if they put $1 for the car, 16 grand for fees and $1K TTL - that's allright, too isn't it?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Do all your research: get the TMV here (knowing that the TMV is likely to be HIGHER than what you want to pay - use it as a guideline only), definitely get the invoice price. Go to the manufacturer's web site and configure the car the way you want it. (By the way, you can usually assume the dealer is going to put on those "port installed" items, like cargo nets, floor mats, splash guards, etc.)
How old are you? If you are over 21, do not bring your dad along. Time to put on your big girl undies and deal with it! You will learn a lot doing this on your own, and your own self-confidence will grow.
It sounds like you are well-prepared in knowing what the inventories are for the cars you are interested in; that's a great start.
Honestly, I sometimes think women have an advantage in the car-buying process. Most women have had plenty of experience in telling pushy guys "No!", for starters.
Good luck and keep posting what happens in your search!
Somewhere back in this thread, I described aspects of my first new car purchase, I think that I was about 19 years old. It was a lot of fun doing it.
I constantly encourage people to turn perceived disadvantages into advantages. You should be able to do the same...and without your dad.
Put it this way: If you are perceived as dumb and naive, that actually works to your benefit. People who underestimate you are easier to bluff, you can always plead poverty as a reason to not increase your offer, and you can use your perceived lack of knowledge as a way to lure the salesman into the relationship game. Definitely do your homework, but don't be too eager to appear too knowledgable too soon -- wait until the timing is right.
The one thing that you do need to do that's a bit different is to demonstrate that you can actually pay for the car. One gimmick that I used when I was your age was to bring a cashier's check for a significant amount (pay to the order of myself, of course) which I could use to show my ability and willingness to buy. Salespeople have a tough time resisting temptation, and everyone's money smells good.
As for the Bob take-it-or-leave-it method, I think that this will especially backfire on you if used early in the process. For a young female to make take-it-or-leave-it demands before the "relationship building" process has begun will appear to be particularly aggressive and impudent from the vantage point of the cocky male salesperson. Again, first build the faux-relationship, establish that you are a live customer, and get the sales team's investment in your deal before getting down to hardball.
Otherwise known as the "fantasies and fallacies" forum...seriously, take anything there with a grain of salt. I'd work on the dealer fees, they're more than a bit on the high side.
In Ohio, this web page will tell you how much someone (not a dealer) paid for a car if you have the VIN or title number. Again, it does not tell you how a trade or credit or other factors affected the price.
Otherwise known as the "fantasies and fallacies" forum...
raybear,
Darn, you've got that right. Just for the fun of it I went to the Prices Paid Form for the Hyundai Sonata since I just bought one on 6-6-06. I don't think there is price out there that isn't less than what I paid. I had prices from 5 dealers and obviously took the one that met my price and I still got ripped !!!
If I need another car but that's unlikely since I now have a 2005 and a 2006, I am going to hire any one on that thread and take him/her with me because I want to watch how they do it.
I'm more than willing to pay for a good education , I did it 45 years ago and it payed off.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Could it be that Edmunds, since they get some of their revenues from auto advertisements, tend to be on the high side?
Re: another piece of sheet metal....right. Why I personally favor getting a '07 Sonata a Camry or Honda will probably suit me just as well if the price is right.
Talk like that may get you thrown off of this thread. However, that thought has crossed my mind and post #2043 also pretty much said the same thing. As I said in my post #2027 that started this whole discussion, the 'TMV is a starting point' and for that we should be at least a little appreciative.
I hope the three of us will survive.
jmonroe
'15 Genesis V8 with Ultimate Package and '18 Legacy Limited 6 cyl
Dealers' fees (in some states there is not cap, sky is a real limit), leasing/financing fees, low/high trade values, all can make the reported TMV or "Prices Paid" forum prices completely irrelevant to one's situation, which may of course producs high levels of frustration in both parties.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Additionally, if it were the case that Edmunds.com catered its content to suit manufacturers who advertise, there are a number of anti- manufacturer/model discussions that we should probably shut down straight away.
Keep in mind that TMV is an average number paid. This includes those who are completely uninformed and who pay MSRP. The reason you'll see such a variance in the Pricing discussions from TMV is that 1) members who do research and then post about their deals tend to go in more informed, and 2) there's no way to tell from many of those posts whether trade-in was undervalued, or what else may have gone on in the deal to get to that price.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
I hope my previous post:
"How much do you pay for this information?
Who advertises on this site?
Now do you know why there is not more detailed data given?"
wasn't seen by anyone as a conspiracy theory, but rather a reality check. Edmunds spends some amount to gather and process the data that results in the TMV. They get the money to do that from their advertisers, mostly car manufactures and dealers. We consumers should not expect more details or refined data unless we'd be willing to pay for it. The business model that Edmunds uses is hopefully working well; because I think it provides a good balance of their information, in the form of the TMV, and consumer input, on the Prices Paid Forums, that we consumers can use to purchase cars at prices we feel are fair.
Enjoy your cars!
GregB