Hyundai Azera 2006

mechanic80

It seems to me that the lowest position of the pedals is about where they would be normally (without any adjust) and they move in/up about 2". A substantial amount for finding the perfect driving position. I'm relatively short (5'5") and I leave the pedals all the way down. The T&T steering wheel is what makes it perfectly adjustable for me. I see reviews mentioning that the driver's seat cushion is too high and doesn't adjust down enough, but for little 'ole me, it couldnt be better. (little people unite !)
I got the mud guards last night and will install them this weekend. I'll try to take a couple pics of the installed dash kit and guards and post them if I can figure that out.
:shades:

floridabob1

Have you seen dash kit for sale in roeswood color? The vendors I contacted only had light color presently.

mechanic80

dashtrims.com for the rosewood kit. $225 and free freight for mine. Looks good!

chilliwack

Has anyone noticed or had any issues with their sunroof? I had to have mine adjusted originally, it fits in the opening but I can slip a business card past the seal anywhere around the seal. Is this normal as there are drain ports for any passing water, or should they be very tight seals(can't pass a business crd through past seal)?
My sunroof experience is limited so any input/info would be appreciated.

ricwhite

I'm really pissed off right now about the crash test results for the Azera! Just in --and they're not good.

Yeah, the Azera brochure states that the Azera is build for a "five-star" safety result. Other articles stated that the preliminary results of the Azera indicate a five star test rating. But 'fraid not.

In fact the Azera is quite noticably WORSE than the previous XG350!!!

Some data on "head injury" for driver. (Higher is worse)

2006 Hyundai Azera - 698 (4 star)
2005 Hyundai XG350 - 371 (5 star)
2006 Buick Lucerne - 169 (5 star)
2006 Toyota Avalon - 342 (5 star)
2006 Ford 500 - 335 (5 star)
2006 Chevy Impala - 411 (5 star)
2006 Acura TL - 306 (5 star)
2006 Chrysler 300 - 216 (5 star)
2006 Lexus ES330 - 374 (5 star)

In fact, I can't find any car in its class that's WORSE than the Azera. And I've only mentioned the head injury. Look at the numbers for the load on the femur (leg bones) – 1636!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. My God! If you're in an accident your legs will snap!

What in the world is going on here?????

This is awful!!

In fact, if I had these numbers before, I'd NEVER EVER buy the Azera. No way.

I'm now considering getting out of my lease and I'll use the argument of false advertising.

Some of the statements in the brochure about its safety:

"The all-new Azera raises the bar"

"Rest assured that you're riding in a new standard of safety."

"Why accept anything less than class-leading safety?"

And a press release by Hyundai stated:

"the 2006 Azera is projected to perform at a five star level in all National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) frontal and side impact testing."

The Azera is actually the CLASS BOTTOM in safety. False advertising.

I'm really VERY VERY disappointed in this. Even my 2000 Passat is much safer.

See results:

Azera Crash Data

Here are some other cars to compare:

Others:

2006 Acura TSX - 268 (5 star)
2006 Audi A4 - 575 (4 star)
2006 BMW 3 Series - 406 (4 star)
2006 Cadillac CTS - 522 (4 star)
2006 Dodge Charger - 216 (5 star)
2006 Honda Accord - 247 (5 star)
2006 Lincoln Zephyr - 510 (4 star)
2006 Mazda6 - 278 (5 star)
2006 Mercury Milan - 510 (4 star)
2006 Mitsubishi Galant - 358 (5 star)
2006 Nissan Maxima - 283 (5 star)
2006 Saturn Ion - 376 (5 star)
2006 Toyota Camry - 518 (5 star)
2006 Volkswagen Passat - 502 (4 star)
2006 Volvo S60 - 502 (4 star)

Bottom Line is that the Hyundai Azera is the WORST car that I have found for safety. I challenge anyone to find another sedan worse than the Azera.

ricwhite

Above is the new photo that will introduce my posts. I hope you like it. :mad:

delta4

Ricwhite I understand why you are extremely disappointed with the crash data on Azera. After all there was a very high expectation that this vehicle would be on par with the competition in this area. 4 Stars is well short of several leading competitors such as Avalon, Lucerne, Accord, Chrysler 300 and Maxima. These vehicles scored at least 5 stars in more than one area. Do I think this will cool sales of the Azera? No. Not one bit.

Believe it or not many buyers still make purchasing decisions without fully investigating safety crash data. However, some buyers who have done their research may seriously re-consider buying an Azera if 5 star crash ratings are important.

Does it mean this car is unsafe? Absolutely not. Does it give a negative perception of the overall car? Probably some. Does it matter? It most definitely will in the long run. The recent IIHS test of the Sonata almost sent their engineers at Hyundai into manic melt down. I can only imagine what their reaction to the Azera's crash results. In a word they must be apoplectic!

I know that this vehicle was crashed several times by Hyundai and held up to **5 star**ratings. Just what went wrong is anybody's guess but the facts are the facts. Hyundai will request a re-test of this car. They know how important this is to them.

Although I know you're livid and upset you still have a very good car. I'm not sure it will be so easy to dump your lease just yet. As for your allegations that Hyundai has made "false" advertising I can assure you that unless you can elicit a large class of owners who feel as you do the chances of recovering damages against Hyundai is slim-who just happened to have left town-and none-who is probably already at the bus depot waiting to get out.

aspen4

Thanks. I wish the light wood was available with all
colors. The light wood color is refreshing.

ricwhite

However, some buyers who have done their research may seriously re-consider buying an Azera if 5 star crash ratings are important.

I'm kicking myself right now. I didn't know when the crash tests would be completed on the Azera -- so I took a chance based upon "preliminary" data and based upon Hyundai's history and claims. Man, I blew it!

I consider myself somewhat obsessed with safety. I always have been. In fact, thats WHY i bought the Azera. From what I read and heard, I was expecting this car to LEAD its class in the crash test results. I'm devastated that the Azera appears to be the WORST in its class. My fault for not waiting longer until the results were in.

Out of the 25 sedans I safety researched, the Azera now is LAST among all of them. LAST in safety -- at least for the results that have been released. They have not yet released side impact numbers. What's amazing is that the Azera hasn't gotten a "five star" in ANY area yet -- not even in roll-over avoidance. Just baffling. It even has stability control.

I really like my Azera and have been looking every week for the crash test results to boost my ego even more. With all of the other great things about the car, I would have loved to boast of driving one of the safest vehicles made.

Has this affected my opinion of Hyundai? Absolutely. Unless the numbers are wrong (doubtful) or Hyundai recalls the car and retrofits it with additional safety features (very doubtful), this will probably kill any future purchase of a Hyundai product. It also definitely will result in me turning the car in after lease instead of buying it (which I was leaning toward).

I must repeat:

Never
Never
Never
Never
Buy
A
car
without
crash
data!

Repeat
Repeat
Repeat

backy

This reminds me of my reaction when the crash test scores came out for the then-new '01 Elantra. They were worse than for the previous-generation Elantra, including a "Poor" score on the IIHS frontal test (driver's airbag deployed late in 2 out of 3 tests). I was none too happy. However, Hyundai did tweak the car so it eventually got a "Good" score on the IIHS frontal test (although it still rates "Poor" on side impact, along with every other small car that does not have side curtains).

So Hyundai will probably work on improving the Azera's crash scores. But this is another reminder that it's a good idea to wait until crash tests are released to buy a car, if crash safety is an important criterion. I decided to not get burned a 2nd time and wait for the crash test scores before I buy my next long-term car.

Aren't you glad you leased the Azera, and it's only a 27 month lease?

backy

Dual 4-star ratings from the IIHS are not the final word on crash safety. There are several cars that scored 2 X 4 stars on the NHTSA frontal test but got a "Good" score on the IIHS frontal offset test, which is regarded as a tougher test to pass. Examples are the A4, 3 Series, Jetta, and C Class. And the jury is still out on side and rear impacts. So there is hope.

chilliwack

Yes, but the femur load numbers are not used in the calculation and they are huge! I am very surprised. The Mini Cooper beats it by a MILE! Unreal.

backy

Well, Hyundai's own little Accent beats it too, as does the Sonata on which the Azera is based. But the frontal crash test results for the Azera should not be compared with much lighter cars, like the Mini Cooper or Accent.

ctalk

I understand why you're extremely disappointed. But there's still hope like Backy stated. I'd rather wait for the IIHS results. I have to admit, this is surprising. It makes me wonder... does Hyundai have its safety issues in place?

But I have to agree with your last statement.
Never buy a car without crash data!

snakeweasel

Believe it or not many buyers still make purchasing decisions without fully investigating safety crash data. However, some buyers who have done their research may seriously re-consider buying an Azera if 5 star crash ratings are important.

few things about this.

1.) Even though its not as great as other cars out there its better than cars 5-10 years ago.

2.) The Azera has 4 wheel ABS, traction control and stability control that makes accident avoidance even better.

3.) Since I am not speed racer on the roads and I have done a lot of drivers courses that help in the defensive driving area I figure my odds of getting into a serious accident is maybe 5% or less. That being the case I don't pay much attention to crash tests (Not saying I will get a car that does abysmal in crashes) when compared to other things.

backy

Better than 10 years ago, maybe. But not better than 5 years ago. Hyundai's own compact car, the Elantra, scored 4/5 on the NHTSA frontal impact test six years ago. The previous-generation Sonata, a design that debuted in 1998, scored 4/4.

You make a good point that the Azera has many safety features standard, but other cars at a lower price point, including Hyundai's own Sonata, have those same features standard. One thing that the Azera has that most other cars at its price do not is rear side airbags. It will be interesting to see how the Azera fares in the side crash tests with that extra protection, as to whether it does much better than cars without that feature.

shawal

.
Has anyone fitted a towbar to their Azera?

If so, where does it attach.

Thanks, Nigel.

shawal

The Azera in Australia retains the Grandeur name

Cut and paste the following

">link titlewww.editorial.discountnewcars.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/BFC2761C64A76455CA- 25710E0003CA4A

Nigel

jim101

Ric,
The crash data is for 'ONE' vehicle and the data listed is subjective, really. It requires more than one test to determine actual data with bell curves, the data you have read is one point on a chart. The test could be repeated and come up with totally different numbers, could be better, could be worse.
NHTSA front and side impacts are 5mph higher than FMVSS requirements. NHTSA only does front, side and rollover. The numbers reported should be considered as one test point, with opinions to be measured against data yet to come.
The actual four star rating is quite close to the five star for side and rollover, I agree the frontal is questionable but time may change the posted data as more data becomes available.
I worked on development and testing for some of the first 'air bags' from 1967 through 1970. Quite an experience to say the least. The technology in air bags and vehicle manufacture has come a long way. Fatality speed in a vehicle crash in 1968 was 7mph. This means if you were in an accident going faster than 7mph and survived you're very lucky.
The Azera has more std safety features, 8 air bags, and the NHTSA tested the vehicle as a 'heavy' vehicle vs. 'large' vehicle, so what does this mean? heavy/large? :confuse:
Most crashes are offset, 2 lane highways, vs. full frontal and side impact. If you are going 50mph and the on-coming car is going 50mph the net impact is equivalent to hitting an immovable barrier at 100mph. What does this do to your crash rating numbers?
And finally, we don't know the positioning of the steering wheel and pedals. The tilt, angle, distance to the steering wheel, position of pedals can influence a crash test. Yes, data can be skewed to provide questionable data.
At this time I'm taking all of this data with a large grain of salt, there just isn't enough data.

ricwhite

1.) Even though its not as great as other cars out there its better than cars 5-10 years ago.

It's about on the same level as cars 16 YEARS AGO. Let's compare my old 1990 Ford Taurus to my brand new 2006 Hyundai Azera:

Head Tramua -
1990 Ford Taurus - 735
2006 Hyundai Azera - 698
(2006 Ford Five Hundred - 335)

Chest Deceleration -
1990 Ford Taurus - 46/40
2006 Hyundai Azera - 45/48
(2006 Ford Five Hundred - 38/36)

Femur Load (lbs)
1990 Ford Taurus - 1219
2006 Hyundai Azera - 1202
(2006 Ford Five Hundred - 740)

It looks to me as if the 2006 Hyundai Azera is about identical to my 1990 Ford Taurus. Both received a 4 star rating. But, in contrast, look how Ford has improved the safety in their cars. The 2006 Five Hundred is far better than their old Ford Taurus and blows away the Azera in safety.

All this talk by Hyundai about huge advancements in safety -- body integrity and crumple zones and they are only at the same level as a 16 year old Ford Taurus! Talking about a step backward. Hyundai is WAY behind other car makers in safety.

How can they get away with statements such as "class-leading safety." They don't "lead" their class in 2006. They are at ROCK BOTTOM. By far the WORST in their class. And no one has yet taken my challenge to find a 2006 sedan worse than the Azera. Why? Because there IS NO car worse than the Azera. Look for yourself. Go to the crash test site and look up as many cars as you want:

Link to NHTSA site

Yes, the Azera has ABS brakes and stability control. The brakes are good. The stability control should also help with accident avoidance. But that certainly doesn't offset the poor crash test results.

For those safety minded -- this is a disaster for Hyundai. Most people who are considering an Azera have several other vehicles on their list that are in close competition. The safety factor may be the defining problem with the Azera that makes the other cars on their list more desirable.

Is redemption possible? Maybe if the Azera get very high marks on ALL of the other crash testing it would help offset this first set of crash test data. Maybe.

ricwhite

The crash data is for 'ONE' vehicle and the data listed is subjective, really. . . .
Yes, data can be skewed to provide questionable data.
At this time I'm taking all of this data with a large grain of salt,

Jim,

I appreciate your comments, although I do not agree with "shrugging-off" and down-playing the numbers. The NHTSA takes their tests VERY seriously and they spend weeks tweaking and setting up a vehicle for testing. They don't just throw a dummy in the car and drive it into a wall. This is now a precise science.

They will certainly disagree with your "subjective" comment. It is all VERY objective and finely tuned.

However, I know that the NHTSA tests differently than the IISH. In fact, the IISH's standards are even higher and probably more realistic since they try to mimic "real-world" crash environments. Most people just don't drive into a stationary barrier. The offset tests and rear tests should give much more information.

But . . . I absolutely will not "dismiss" the NHTSA numbers. Remember that it was Hyundai itself that made a big deal of the NHTSA numbers and predicted a five-star rating from THEM. So, they must've had trust in that system. Whenever the NHTSA gives one of their cars "five-stars", they plaster it all over posters and on their literature. So, they must have some confidence in their tests.

I'm sure Hyundai is banging their heads right now. I will be calling them on Monday to get a response. (I will probably get nothing but stunned silence).

Your point is well taken though. I will reserve final judgment until the IIHS tests are completed. Does anybody have an idea when that will be done?

chilliwack

http://safercar.gov/info.htm#iq8

How do the forces received by the rating dummy during the crash rating reflect what would happen to a real person?

The injury risk curves obtained from the rating dummy in the crash demonstrate the probability of a serious injury to a particular area of a real person’s body in that crash. The risk curves are shown below. The lower the injury number, the less chance that a person would be injured in that crash.

Frontal Crash (chest injury),
Frontal Crash (leg injury),
Frontal Crash (head injury),
Side Crash (chest injury).

Check this out. The Azera is still a safe car. The next set of tests will reveal a lot more. there are few cars that are totally safe from impact from all angles (Avalon and Accord among them). Just don't drive into a parked car at 70mph

ricwhite

Just don't drive into a parked car at 70mph

I more worried about the OTHER car driving into ME at 70mph. Unfortunately, for about half the drivers in accidents, they were the victims that had little or no control over what happened. If you're going down a two-way road at night and the car from the other direction suddenly swerves head-on into your car, you are helpless to avoid it.

It would be more comforting to know that you are in an "above-average" vehicle for safety rather than a "below-average".

Although all modern cars can be considered "safe", there are pretty dramatic differences. For example, if a Toyota Avalon head injury score indicates that maybe 8% of drivers will suffer a serious injury and the Azera's number is 16%, this still shows a "double" in the percentage of serious injury (even though both numbers are relatively low). Personally, I'd rather be Avalon at 8% than the Azera at 16%.

But I guess you could make a point that both cars are technically "safe."

ctalk

there are few cars that are totally safe from impact from all angles (Avalon and Accord among them

I believe the Hyundai Sonata's front is almost "totally safe."

chilliwack

"totally safe."

I guess that was a poor choice of words.LOL

pocono35

Someone is spending a ton of time putting together some major anti-Azera propoganda. Why is that? It appears to me that Hyundai is a major threat.
I'll wait to see all the facts relating to the safety of this vehicle. I am of the mind-set that Hyundai is a reputable company that is offering vehicles with a safety focus, high-quality build and extreme value. I am seeing a ton of them on the road.

ricwhite

Someone is spending a ton of time putting together some major anti-Azera propoganda. Why is that? It appears to me that Hyundai is a major threat.

Are you saying there is some kind of secret governmental conspiracy with organizations such as the NHTSA that is purposely trying to alter crash test numbers in order to make the Korean based Hyundai look bad and give other manufacturers an advantage over them?

Wow. I think you’ve been watching too much “24" on TV.

Or maybe you're implying that "I" (the one posting the crash test results) am "anti-Azera" even though I own one and really enjoy it otherwise.

Maybe you can clarify you "conspiracy" theory.

---

I think it's so funny how -- if the crash test figures are positive -- people praise them and plaster them all over posters and brochures to promote the "safe" car; yet, when the figures are negative, then they must be misleading, have no reliability or are produced by a secret conspiracies.

LOL

ctalk

I guess that was a poor choice of words.LOL

I wish I can buy a car that is "totally safe" :P

jim101

first set of crash test data

Save and enlarge crash photo.
Note:
1. Steering wheel forward and in up position.
2. Seat is back.
Result, at impact occupant travel distance increased and potential for injury increases.

And as you said, offset this first set of crash test data.

Sit back, have a cold beer and lets all of us do some homework to help Ric with this issue.

krispykreme1

I think Volvo had a totally safe "safety concept car" at a cost of $10 million that was completely made of titanium alloy; from what I heard, the problem was that the titanium was so strong that it resulted in severe injuries to occupants in the other car in various collisions.

backy

Yes, it's funny how it works with these crash tests, isn't it? I recently got vilified on the Sonata discussion for saying I was disappointed that Hyundai just missed achieving class-leading IIHS crash test scores, which would have strongly demonstrated Hyundai's oft-stated commitment to safety. People who knocked Ford for the poor IIHS crash test results on the Fusion/Milan got the same treatment from some Ford fans.

pocono35

Nah! All I am saying is someone has time to get pics and paste their anti-Azera statements over and over with pic after pic saying 'good luck'. Just a bit of an exaggeration to conclude that you would have to have luck if you were in a Hyundai Azera. Personally, I think they shouldn't be allowed.

ricwhite

Personally, I think they shouldn't be allowed.

---

Censorship!

Let me have my tantrum, please. I am upset and lashing out.

Actually, I really enjoy my Azera. Great car!
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Except for the crash test results.

explorerx4

i don't think they were ford fans, they were looking for an excuse to do some bashing.

aspen4

Thanks [jim101]for the help.Lot of info. Wish Hyundai
offered the light color wood in the gray and beige interior.

chilliwack

Just washed and polished up my black Azera. Looks exceptional.

Enjoy!

delta4

Some insight I have learned on the recent crash test of Azera: Hyundai engineers suspect that too much seat track travel(?) may be part of the reason the test prevented the car from scoring a 5 star rating. Also in looking at preliminary data they believe this can be addressed in the '07 models. They are also paying attention to the Sonata in regards to the recent IIHS side-impact test. They want to improve it from "acceptable" to "Good". The car did score 5 Stars however in both frontal and off-set test by NHSTA and IIHS.

Interestingly enough, the Hyundai Tucson received 5 stars across the board on front/side crash test from the NHTSA: Hyundai Tucson Receives Five Star Saftey Rating

Note to Hyundai: 5 star safety ratings on all your models can and will increase market share. You must continue to prove to a skeptical consumer that your vehicles are on par with the top line competition not just in quality but also in 5 star safety ratings if you expect to someday become a leading brand in the U.S. market.

ricwhite

Hyundai engineers suspect that too much seat track travel(?) may be part of the reason the test prevented the car from scoring a 5 star rating. Also in looking at preliminary data they believe this can be addressed in the '07 models

07 model fix? No. If it's a seat track defect that caused the lower ratings, then THE AZERA NEEDS TO BE RECALLED AND RETROFITTED WITH NEW SEATS (tracks?)ASAP. It is unacceptable to wait until the 07 model to fix a problem -- especially if it results in a less safe vehicle.

delta4

It is too soon to call for a recall. As I said data is only preliminary. You are obviously understandably upset about this but all data needs to be fully analyzed to determine exact causes. You do not want to rush to judgment until they can make this determination.

maypo

I have a question for all you Azera owners regarding the trip computer in the instrument cluster. In the brochure, the trip computer has a black background with white letters/numbers which aesthetically matches the rest of the gauges. However, in the ones I've test driven, the trip computer has bright orange numbers/letters. Is this one of the things you can have changed/reprogrammed?

101649

The new Azera utilizes a drop in oil filter cartridge vs a spin-on filter...Is it accessable from the top of the engine or from the bottom for changing??

joe97

I believe only NA is called Azera; Grandeur everywhere else. Not certain though...

backy

This seems like deja-vu all over again. The driver's seat track was part of the culprit in the '01 Elantra getting a "Poor" IIHS frontal crash score (the other problem was a late-deploying airbag). What did Hyundai do? Redesign the seat tracks, then recall the '01 models and replace the seat tracks (which I understand is a $6 part)? No. They started using the new, improved seat tracks in the home market Elantras (or Avantes) in '02, but did not put them on U.S. market Elantras until '04. The '04 Elantra finally got a "Good" score on the IIHS frontal test, after another misfire involving a fuel leak.

I truly hope Hyundai learned a lesson from that experience and responds better this time.

P.S. The new Accent got 5-star frontal crash test scores from the NHTSA but mediocre 4/3 side crash scores, even with its standard side bags and curtains. Maybe it will do better on the IIHS tests.

greayregs

The dealer in Boise has installed a sun roof wind deflector on all their Azera's. I think it detracts from the appearance of the car but it may be necessary to avoid too much wind coming into the interior. Anyone had any experience with no deflector?

floridabob1

Hyundai US Customer Care appears to be very slow, or worse, in responding to owners questions about engineering problems with their vehicles.
Examples are the lack of Reverse Parking Aid, memory seat function (key on only) Not integrating adjustable pedal function with memory setting, etc.
If they wish to compete with the "Big Boys" they must learn not to bury their heads in the sand.

ricwhite

It is too soon to call for a recall. As I said data is only preliminary.

Okay, agreed. However IF it is determined that the poorer crash test results were even in part caused by faulty seats, then then need to fix it. They cannot just revise the 2007 model and leave all of the 2006 models unchanged. Since this is a safety issue, they must address it. 2006 owners will likely own their Azeras for many years and they should not be driving them with compromised safety -- especially if a fix is known.

floridabob1

They will probably take the position that a 4 star rating is not a failure which would require recall. From a legal viewpoint, the are probably correct. From a marketing angle, a poorer rating than the competition would surely hurt them.

aspen4

[ricwhite]
Lost my message reply somehow.Keep reporting on the
safety issues. Sure like the Azera overall. Not just
the price,but the car itself.

aspen4

[ricwhite]

My wife was hit headon at 50 miles an hour.Compond facture
in both arms and left leg. In nursing home two months.This
was about a year ago. Still cannot use her left hand-still
taking therapy on the hand.So this can happen and fast.The
nut that hit her said he fell asleep.Yeah 2:00 pm! clear
blue sky. She was driving a 2001 Aurora Olds.

Hope the crash results are not as dissapointing as you
are reporting. Sure like the car inside and outside.And the
price is an incentive. Im leery now since what we have
been through because of an accident. Please keep us posted
on the safety issue.

ricwhite

They will probably take the position that a 4 star rating is not a failure which would require recall. From a legal viewpoint, the are probably correct. From a marketing angle, a poorer rating than the competition would surely hurt them.

From the data so far, the Azera is a reasonably safe car. 4-star rating is not terrible.

However. . .

From a marketing viewpoint it's a disaster. They use the "five-star" ratings in marketing. They make statements such as "class-leading safety", etc. They will have to DROP all of that.

From the data thus far, here's the fact:

The Azera has the WORST crash test data OF ANY SEDAN MADE IN 2006.

Read that a few times, Hyundai.

If you think that's an exaggeration, prove me wrong. I challenge anyone.

If Hyundai is satisfied with having the WORST car in crash test numbers, that is VERY sad.

However, with that said, I am anxiously waiting for the rest of the data to be released. Then we can get a complete picture of just how bad (or good) the Azera is.

On a positive note -- I really enjoy the Azera. I actually look for excuses to take a drive and I haven't done that in a long time.