A silver BMW doesn't look any different than a silver Lexus, except that the Lexus doesn't charge extra. MAYBE, if you're talking about a $100K Porsche or something like that, and you want a custom paint color, OK, I can see that, but I think if you want standard metallic colors like silver, blue, tan, etc.. they should be part of the price tag.....Like ejj said, maybe next they can charge extra for the steering wheel...
I guess I don't have a problem with it because I've paid extra in the past for a color I liked and I'd do it again.
I see nothing standard about the metallic colors (in general) used on German cars. Japanese cars, well I've only seen one color that blew me away - it's an odd slate gray thing on the G35.
What is funny though, VW doesn't charge for the nice paint jobs, Audi does. :confuse:
The 2 different Pontiac and 1 GMC (formerly Olds-GMC) dealerships I had experiences with aren't related. And, none of them are big superstores... the first Pontiac dealership (bought the GTP there) is slowly going out of business... not even listed on GMBuyPower or pontiac.com any longer...
I could see paying extra for a really unique color that only that manufacturer offers, like a certain shade of blue (like the latest limited edition M3 or some of the unique colors that Mazda had on "limited edition" Miatas, for example)....BUT.. in general, they charge extra for anything metallic.. the same silver that is free on just about any other car costs you a few hundred bucks on a BMW or MB...It's just a different pricing model than the Japanese or Americans use
are more important to me today than ever. I found a small town dealership that I decided just had to be better than the big city (Wash DC area) dealers I had tried. I can't explain the feeling, but I usually felt taken somehow after most service events. I guess I just got tired of them finding "stuff" that needed to be done (I usually politely declined the extra service).
The small town dealership now does ALL my work, regardless of where I originally purchased the car. It was one of the most important aspects of three car purchase decisions, all of which were from the same small town dealer. And, the sales experience was equally as pleasant and just about as easy as I have ever had. I purchased two of the three cars over the telephone with the same salesman (who has been at this store for over 20 years, IIRC), left a credit card deposit, and picked up the car at my convenience.
One car ('03 Olds Aurora) has required several warrantly repairs for stuff like sunroof rattles, defective bose speaker, replace the back seat due to sagging, that kind of stuff. The sunroof rattle took two visits to repair to my total satisfaction, but I was impressed that they not only took the time, but kept me posted, and followed up after the service to make sure I was satisfied.
This positive experience has resulted in my recommending this dealership's service area to others, and feedback from those that used them was very positive. I had one friend take me to dinner for "letting them in on the secret".
A lot of times it depends on the dealerships, but if the same guy owns 4 different brands, and one of them is a premium brand, then I would assume that you would find a memo screaming "Treat the Premium Brand customers Great while treating the other customers normal."
Sadly I don't think the person who owns Infiniti of Nashville sent out a memo like that... I'm being treated slightly better, but not much better than how I'm treated at the local Honda dealer.
Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.
6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!
kirstie_h
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Bottom line -- Car companies can't depend on just the product to succeed anymore, because they are all making essentially good product. As clearly stated in recent posts, even GM can win converts and maintain loyalties if their dealerships offer consistently good service. And even Honda or BMW will lose customers if their dealers are jerks.
Cars are just too good these days for any one manufacturer to hold sway over consumers based purly on product. Dealer service (and creative design) are really the two final frontiers left in this industry. To the victor will go the spoils.
The Audi A3 I just tested cost $30,710, and had more items than I needed.
Here is the simple break down:
Have to start with a DSG model, because the tranny is just tool cool -- $26,140
Have to go with Sport Package, because you get leather, sport tuned suspension, performance tires, leather wrapped steering wheel with audio controls (very cool thumb dials) and fog lights. You also get aluminum interior trim and a rear spoiler, which I could take or leave, but don't have a problem with -- $1,800
At that point the car costs $28,660 (with destination), and really has everything I need. Don't forget that dual-zone climate control, cruise control, one-touch down AND UP windows all around, keyless entry and a 10-speaker, 140-watt sound system with single CD player come standard. If you spring for the sound package and metallic paint you're at $30,010, before the first word of grinding...uh, I mean negotiation. The Sound Package makes the audio system very strong, but the base system is still very good, so I'd save the $900 on the sound package and spend it toward the $700 Convenience Package, making your price $29,810 and giving you Homelink, autodimming interior mirror and light/rain sensor (also storage tray and trip computer, but it's silly that those cost extra).
Or spend the $700 on Cold Weather package and get heated seats, heated exterior mirrors and heated windshield washer nozzles (and a ski sack -- woo-hoo!!). Nix the metallic paint and the cost is $29,360 with either package, or $30,060 with both. Now you can add xenon lights for $500 and still be below $30,600.
Regardless of your personal needs, you can get an A3 pretty well equipped for under, or right at, $30,000, and that's MSRP before you start grinding (you do grind when you buy a car, don't you?).
I'm not saying there aren't other great cars out there for $30,000, but as a totally new model with cool styling, extremely advanced drivetrain features, great handling (if you get Sport Package) and standard-issue Audi interior quality, it's a pretty unique offering.
So are all you guys now wondering what the gift was on the press trip to make me love the A3 so much? Ha! Gotcha! :P
No doubt - they would most likely treat the "premium" brand customers somewhat better, BUT....I still doubt, if you have a "mega" dealer that has 5 different brands, that they purposely treat the Honda customers better than the Ford, or the Toyota customers better than the Buick, etc...
I really appreciate you sharing that article with me. I could not agree more with the points you made. Its funny that you mention GM--I own four (3 Olds and 1 Pontiac) and the small dealership I work with now exclusively will keep me coming back to them FIRST before I go elsewhere for my new car purchases, as long as GM makes something that appeals to me stylewise and ultimately meet my transportation needs.
Karl, any plans on reviewing a Grand Prix GXP? Just curious.
Also, not trying to start anything. So please do not think so.
You have conveyed your overall distaste for the HHR. If you were to review it would you be able to put aside your predisposition and be objective? What I am saying is that with many products, people have formed an opinion often before trying them for themselves. In order for ones opinion to really change the product has to be way better than expectations. This is in a way is just human nature. Do you understand what I am trying to get across?
Since the previous conversations about reviewers being fair and objective I re-read many reviews from various media outlets. After doing so, I would tend to agree that Edmunds does seem to be the most consistent and objective in their reviews.
I think the problem with the HHR is that it's a foolish idea, coming far too late to the party. Those are marketing mistakes. That doesn't make it a bad vehicle.
I know that I went and test drove a Subaru Baja with a smirk in the back of my mind. I knew the thing was an oddity in the market. But when it came to driving it, the things that stood out were not the things I had expected to find. I still didn't like the vehicle, but I had a whole new set of reasons.
thanks for comment, Karl. I have yet to see __any__ manufacturer address what you have outlined.
GM seems to talk only about new product. On their blogs and other sites I read nothing about improving service or seriously polling the customers for feedback via clinics or extended surveying. The surveys they hype discuss quality after 3 months, Not long term. Perhaps Lutz thinks that buying a new car every year is the way to get "quality"? I don't know - he ain't talking about that.
And yes, I realize many people will say "quit whining, play the game, get a new car every year". My sincere congrats to those who make enough money and have the time to pursue that.
lets see if the 'FEH' has the same stalling problem as the priius. i guess that would confirm that ford just copied toyota's hybrid tech. my guess is that as toyota and others build in feature rich, big-3 volumes, they will experience more of those painful 'big recalls'. dare i? :lemon:
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Karl, any plans on reviewing a Grand Prix GXP? Just curious.
Just checked the road test schedule, and we have a GXP coming June 6-13.
You have conveyed your overall distaste for the HHR. If you were to review it would you be able to put aside your predisposition and be objective?
An extremely good (and fair) question.
The experience I am currently having with the Corvette provides a good answer.
After reading all the standard hype for the C6 ("All-new Corvette! Redesigned and better than ever!!" yada-yada-yada) I had relatively high expectations. Then I drove two of them last fall, both coupes, and was moderately to extremely disappointed (moderately on the first one with auto and Z51, extremely on the second one with manual and no Z51).
I had pretty much written off the C6 as overblown hype meant for diehard domestic fans who refuse to acknowledge any foreign cars (regardless of how much better they may be). But when a convertible appeared on the road test scheduled I decided to take the story myself (not an easy decision, as I usually have plenty to keep me busy without doing any actual road testing). My thinking was this -- if I didn't like the convertible, too, than any lingering questions regarding my low opinion of the C6 would be squelched. I'd be fully comfortable with not liking the car.
And, just as vitally, if there was something positive I missed on the first two drives this third experience would give the model one more chance to redeem itself.
As I've already stated, the combination of six-speed manual, Z51 suspension, convertible top and red paint has proven very compelling, and I'm willing to acknowledge the 'Vette's compelling arguments as to why it is still a great vehicle. This is particularly interesting because our original test car was an orange automatic convertible (with Z51), but at the last minute we got a different test car with manual and red paint (and still Z51)
So, long-story-turned-novel, it is entirely possible for a car to change an editor's opinion, no matter how low (or high) that opinion is before actually driving the car. The Corvette has manged to both dash my hopes, and regain my favor, without even undergoing a redesign. In this case, it calls out the importance of getting a good test vehicle with the right combination of features (something we alluded to in both previous tests, where we questioned the equipment set-up on both test vehicles).
The real critical element here is that the road test editor must go into each test with an open mind, even if he already has a strong opinion. Everyone knows I think the HHR is a mistake, but most of my negative opinion comes from GM taking too long to bring it to market and offering too little horsepower. Both of these are theoretical complaints at best (they have to be, because I haven't actually driven the car yet). I'm also not thrilled with the styling, but I always put that aspect low on my priority list when reviewing a car because it's such a personal element.
If I drive the HHR and it handles superbly, feels quick despite the horsepower ratings (and backs up those feelings with track testing), and offers as much or more utility than the PT Cruiser or Toyota Matrix (two primary competitors based on price and vehicle design) then I will acknowledge the car's positive points and give it an overall positive review, regardless of my previous feelings. There's no doubt I've got negative preconceptions of the car, but in the end it's the product that matters most. As long as I remember that, and take the perspective of likely buyers when reviewing it, everything else will fall into place.
And now that I know that you all know my feelings toward the HHR, I'll be working twice as hard to be unbiased when I finally drive it.
"There's no doubt I've got negative preconceptions of the car, but in the end it's the product that matters most. As long as I remember that, and take the perspective of likely buyers when reviewing it, everything else will fall into place."
If only all could follow these guidelines.
Great answer. It was intended to be a general question. I just used the HHR as my example because I had an inkling of how you felt.
The surveys they hype discuss quality after 3 months, Not long term.
Well, I hear that a lot, but I have to believe that the initial study is a pretty good indicator of what the results will be when JD Power does their midterm reliability ratings. Which brings me to today's news:
I have to believe that the initial study is a pretty good indicator of what the results will be when JD Power does their midterm reliability ratings
WHY?
I'm not saying that there isn't any correlation between initial fit and finish and the quality of assembly overall, but reliability would be much more dependent on the quality of materials and the skill of the engineers who design the car..
Deficiencies in those areas are the ones that show up over time and miles...
I really don't have much interest in a 90-day ranking (although my CCBA status belies that statement), except as a disqualifier..
Sure, that's an area that probably needs to be improved in the industry... However, the manufacturers don't have nearly as much control over the dealers as they would like. I guess in an extreme case of poor customer service, etc...they could take away a dealer's franchise, but they don't have total control over how the dealer runs his or her business.
Look up some older cars that you have experience with (we have JD Power Star ratings here). My rides correlate pretty well to the "norm." ymmv
I looked up my two current cars: 03 Mazda Protege and 03 BMW 330i. don't agree with the ratings on either car. BMW's got 4 stars for mechanical quality? Pro's got 2? Uh, flip those and actually make the Pro a 5 star for mechanical quality. Overall quality shows 3 series at 4 stars! And the pro at only 3? What the blazes?! Flip those. Features and instrument panel only gets 3? I'd give both a 4 just for the instrument panels alone. comfort, the 3 gets 3 stars? I can't think of another car I'd want on a 500 mile drive at 90 mph.
I just look at those ratings sometimes and scratch my head. It all seems so subjective.
There's a longstanding assumption that these various study groups (Consumer Reports, Strategic Vision, etc.) have some sort of direct tap into an all-knowing, all-conquering source of automotive information. That their results are somehow "certified" by an unidentified (but still quite real) impartial board of high-ranking judges or referees, and thus their results are beyond reproach.
Obviously, none of these study groups does anything to alter this impression because, accurate or not, an image like this greatly increases their influence throughout the industry.
Now I'm going to make a theoretically obvious statement that, for far too many, isn't that obvious:
There is no "outside certification" of their results. These companies send out a bunch questionnaires, they get some back, and they tally the results. This should be obvious to everyone, but I always feel like the statement "Consumer Reports says that..." is somehow seen as gospel by too many people. To be fully accurate, these press releases should say, "Consumer Reports sent out a bunch of surveys to average, ordinary folks, we got some back, and we tallied the results. We can't by any means certify that these results will reflect your own experience with this product, because we only did a relatively small sampling compared to the total number of products out there and, quite honestly, we don't even know how knowledgeable the folks were who responded, and we did nothing to verify their own ratings skill when it comes to vehicle design or ownership experience."
Obviously, making this sort of statement wouldn't add to the credibility to the results, but it would be a more accurate way to describe them.
That experience confirmed what everyone should already know -- regardless of what the experts say about a given product, your results may vary.
In my humble opinion, the best method for discerning the truth about a car comes from two sources: 1. Professional automotive writers who drive nearly every vehicle on the market (and thus have a unique perspective shared by few owners) 2. Current owners of a vehicle who have had said vehicle for at least one year (thus having a perspective shared by few automotive writers)
I would add two footnotes to the above sources: 1. Professional automotive writers will have a definite advantage on understanding the basic strengths and weaknesses of a vehicle within the segment it competes, but their long-term ownership/dealership experience will be almost non-existent, unless they have a long-term vehicle in their publication's fleet 2. Current owners will be the opposite; they'll know all about long-term wear and durability issues, and they'll know about their own dealership experiences, but they won't be able to honestly rate their own vehicle against competitors (I know, it's a harsh statement, but we're all friends here -- and we all know that when you spend thousands of dollars on a vehicle, the ability to say "Wow, this vehicle isn't very good. I guess I made a big mistake when I bought it" is greatly diminished).
BTW, I think forums like this are the single best source of ownership feedback, because they are real time versus the belabored process of sending out surveys, getting back surveys, tallying surveys, and reporting the results of surveys. If I'm about to buy a certified 2002-2004 Honda Odyssey for my wife (which I am, by the way) I can go to the Honda Odyssey forum, ask people about ownership issues and suggested dealers in my area and get immediate feedback. Beats the hell out of a Consumer Reports study, at least in my admittedly totally biased opinion.
I agree with the comment that 90-day ownership studies reflect almost nothing, except maybe the purchase experience. Most people haven't even gone in for their first service at 90-days, and very few modern vehicles experience any serious flaws in 90 days (and, usually, very few recalls are issued in the first 90 days).
If I'd been sent a Consumer Reports survey 90 days after getting the Honda Pilot, I would have given it glowing reviews. But those reviews wouldn't really reflect my long-term ownership experience, would they?
I should note that the folks at Goudy Honda felt horrible when they found out what happened, and they reimbursed me for the tow and hotel charges after the Pilot went DOA in Utah. They also changed their system of service to ensure that all cars where checked for recall notices, even when coming in for a simple 7,500-mile service (which is basically an oil change and cursory inspection).
And further proof that no one should buy any car (new or used) until they run through the associated forums here.
It seems the following rules are in order if/when I buy a certified Odyssey: 1. Make sure it has the Honda Certification 2. Make sure all recalls/TSBs have been addressed 3. Make sure I pay extra attention to the tranny's performance, and acknowlege the possibility of having it replaced (under warranty) if/when necessary
I had already planned for number 1, but 2 and 3 are new additions based on reading that discussion thread.
I feel that forums are essentially the same thing, if not even more selective - it takes more effort for people to join an online forum to send in a survey. And talking to people who've owned the vehicle for a year gives you too small a sample. I slept through most of statistics but I remember something about a magic number "30," beyond which a sample gives a pretty good confidence level.
And surveys give plenty more than 30. They let you take in, in two seconds, more people's experiences than you can read about in a forum in a whole day of reading.
A lot of people take surveys as something to be blown off, but the alternative is a sample of several emotional car haters or lovers. It's simply the best way of condensing all the information that we personally give out one sound bite at a time.
I will say that Consumer Reports gives a very superficial view, but it's not useless. If I only had 30 seconds to research a vehicle, it's where I would go. But the ideal use of a very broad, unspecific source of information like CR is to help out in the very first stages of picking a vehicle, and then coming up with more specific questions to ask and issues to look for. I highly doubt that if you ask for details first, you'll cover all the bases that CR does.
I agree with much of what you said but I found this one bit curious (though a good nod toward job security):
the best method for discerning the truth about a car comes from two sources:
1. Professional automotive writers who drive nearly every vehicle on the market (and thus have a unique perspective shared by few owners)
How can someone else's opinion on how a car feels, drives and looks guide a prospective buyer toward truth? Maybe I'm odd with the way I help friends and family buy cars, but I do my best to get them into as many cars as possible. I find out what they want in a vehicle, what their price range is and if they have definitive "no way" makes/models (pretty universally everyone says no american cars at all). From there I do my best to expose them to a wide range of vehicles that meet and ideally exceed their expectations.
Some people say driving 10-15 cars takes too much time - read the reviews from experts and avoid the lemons. Well, they're about to spend 25-40k on something they will drive daily for 3-7 years. I'd say it's well worth one's time to find the car, even if that takes 15-20 hours of looking. I'd hate to think I helped someone buy and they didn't end the process positive they found the exact car they wanted.
A friend wanted a sporty hatchback but also possibly a compact SUV. She is opposed to American/German cars and prefers manuals. She wanted to stay south of 30k. So I got her seat time in a Matrix, RAV4, Element, CR-V, xB, tC, Tribute, Prius, RSX, Accord coupe V6 (not hatch but she loves Hondas), Mazda6 hatch/wagon, Mazda3 5 door. I knew the Mazda3 was pretty much her ideal car. In the end that's what she bought. Most importantly though she's positive she got the perfect car for her lifestyle. She only knew that once she had seen/felt the competition. Reading articles from professionals is amusing but it can't really replace the value and knowledge that comes from seat time. Melissa, when it was over, could concretely state positives and minuses of the cars she drove. In my eyes that's invaluable.
A guy on the boards informed me once that he only test drove one car - the one he bought. He was adamant this was the best thing. He "knew" the others in the class couldn't compare based on stats, cost and reviews. Yeah, I "knew" I wanted a G35 in 2003. No expensive, unreliable, badge-hound BMW 3 series for me. No way. Infiniti had the powerful, comfy, economical, nice, luxurious sporty sedan market cornered for me. The mags confirmed the G35 was a 3 series killer. Add in cost and the G beat the 3 hands down. Why blow 40k on a german car, when I can get one of my beloved Nissans for 8k less?! A funny thing happened on the way to buying a G35...on a test drive of the 6 speed the back of the car lifted off the ground on a corner while cresting a hill at 80 mph. My stomach came out of my throat and my search continued for a car in the class. What I 'knew" wasn't enough to make an informed decision without driving all the cars in the class.
Forums are a great tool for learning about price, possible common problems, fixes, etc. But there's no replacement for actually driving the cars.
How can someone else's opinion on how a car feels, drives and looks guide a prospective buyer toward truth?
and:
So I got her seat time in a Matrix, RAV4, Element, CR-V, xB, tC, Tribute, Prius, RSX, Accord coupe V6 (not hatch but she loves Hondas), Mazda6 hatch/wagon, Mazda3 5 door.
The one advantage an automotive writer will have over almost any consumer is that he/she can drive all the cars you mentioned above in rapid succession over the exact same roads.
All cars are so good these days that you have to drive two or more competitors, back-to-back, over the same roads with quality seat time (at least 30 miles on varying road types), to truly uncover the minor, but important, differences.
If you spend one weekend and go to multiple dealers and drive multiple models that is good...but if your are going to different dealers you probably aren't driving each model over the exact same roads (unless you're in an auto mall and have a carefully mapped route), and you're probably only getting 15 minutes/a few miles of seat time. And it's probably anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours between each test drive (depending on how long the salesman plays the old "What will it take to get you into this car today?" game after each test drive). Undeniably, if everyone who bought a new car did at least this much work they'd be much better off than the person who buys the first car he test drives.
But even the diligent test driver isn't going to recreate the circumstances we use in our comparison tests. For example, when we did our recent Midsize Truck Comparison test, we got every single model on the market, all in the same basic configuration (biggest available engine, crew cab, 4x4). Then we drove all five over the exact same route, back-to-back, within a few hours. When you have just hopped from a 40-mile test loop of a Toyota Tacoma, and then immediately hop into a Nissan Frontier and do the same test loop, you are aware of every difference, big and small, from seat comfort to ride quality to power delivery, etc. And don't forget, that's just our "on-road" evaluation part of a comparison test. We also park all the vehicles in a comparison test together and hop from vehicle to vehicle, in quick succession, to evaluation interior quality, storage capacity, ergonomics, etc. And, we live with most comparison test vehicles for a total of two weeks, with each model rotating between contributing editors (beyond the test's official author, to get additional perspective) on a daily basis. Again, this is on top of the back-to-back driving loops that we cram into one day, two at the most if the test has more than five competitors.
Even waiting a few hours, and/or driving a different type of vehicle in between two direct competitors, will begin to degrade your evaluation of both vehicles. If, for example, you drive a Toyota Camry to the local BMW dealer and go on a 15-minute 3 Series drive, then get back into your Camry, drive to lunch, then drive several miles to the local Audi dealer, and then drive an A4 on a different set of roads for 15 minutes, you will probably have a sense of which seat you liked better and which interior design you preferred, but steering quality, ride quality, interior material quality, even power delivery will be tough to accurately compare between the two.
Trust me on this. I've tried it both ways.
So, in answer to your question: How can someone else's opinion on how a car feels, drives and looks guide a prospective buyer toward truth?
If that "someone else" is an automotive writer that has had in-depth, back-to-back experience with all the cars from a single segment, he will have a better understanding of each models' strengths and weaknesses than most potential buyers. He still can't tell a given person what car is best for them, because he doesn't know that person's individual preferences. But if the automotive writer reports on those strengths and weaknesses, and the buyer reads the report and lines himself up with the car that is strongest where he most desires strength, he'll have a good place to start his personal test drives and confirm the best car -- for him.
Also, don't forget that there's a sort of accumulated knowledge that comes from driving hundreds of new cars over the years. Ten years ago I couldn't have accurately described the difference between "good" and "bad" interior materials. Now, I can get into any modern vehicle and immediately have a sense of where a car lands in the spectrum of "good" to "bad" interior quality because I know all the little tricks manufacturers do to make their interiors look as good as possible, and I know just where to look to uncover any weaknesses. The same thing holds true for steering feel, braking performance (especially under emergency braking since I do all the instrumented testing for Edmunds), ride quality, etc.
Ideally, I still like to be part of comparison tests for an entire segment to really crystallize my opinion of each model, but the accumulated experience of driving so many different cars, regularly, definitely adds up after several years and tens of thousands of miles in new cars.
You said yourself, "Well, they're about to spend 25-40k on something they will drive daily for 3-7 years."
Exactly. How can someone who shops for a new car every 3-7 years have a strong sense of the overall market in terms of interior quality, ride quality, ergonomics, etc.? If you've been in the same car for five years, and then you go test drive a new vehicle, any vehicle you drive will seem "pretty good" at the very least, and it might seem amazing to you -- even if it's the worst vehicle in the segment.
So I'm a big believer in both -- personal test drives and professional reviews.
can be compared if a dealer or car manufacturer sets up a comparison.
GM did this with their "autoshow in motion", allowing John Q public to drive and compare a slew of cars and trucks around the same courses. It's not perfect - Some cars were not available (no Chrysler 300's or any Audis were present). Also no idea what it cost GM (they provided free parking and even a sack lunch). Still, it was a great way to compare cars quickly, and it helps "prep" a customer so they know what they should consider and not waste the dealers time "joy riding".
Too bad that Autoshow in Motion worked against GM in most of the segments I tried out that day.
To be fair, an autocross-like (in the loosest sense of the word) course wasn't going to play the strengths of some of their cars. Though I was surprised that I really liked the CTS's handling and driving, but hated its interior.
That brings up a point about test drives... I guess it depends on how lucky you are with the dealership, but how often is a test drive actually useful? Some only let you go around the block. Other times you can go on a mile of highway, then around the block. That's when I'll take the word of an automotive writer over my 5 minutes of limited experience, at least when I was ambivalent about something.
While I've had dealerships that play the "let me take you on our test drive route", I usually make up my own. It's not a 5 minute loop and it's usually on roads/highways I'm familiar with.
Those that don't want to let me take my own route (about 10 miles total), I back away from even getting to the negotiation table. That'll usually change their mind regarding using my route as opposed to theirs. Of course, after the first 10 minutes, the salesperson in the passenger seat begins to get "antsy", but reinforcing the idea of a more thorough test drive, yields the salesperson more time to close me.
My favorites are those that throw me the keys, no salesperson along, and tells me to take it for a spin. Those instances are rare, but I do have a good relationship with a few dealerships that allow me to do exactly that. Matter of fact, my local BMW dealer will let me keep their car overnight, if I request it.
Personally, I don't know how you can make an informed decision on a major purchase like a car without a thorough test drive typical of your day-to-day use of a car. A 5-10 minute run won't do it.
As Karl says, if you're comparing one car to another, it's imperative to drive them, at the very least, the same day over the same route.....preferably, back-to-back.
When I went car-shopping, I test drove two cars after almost a year and a half of online researching.
At the Infiniti dealer, the salesperson asked me which I35 I wanted to test-drive. I randomly selected one, and he tossed me the keys and said "I'll see you in a few minutes" and walked away. I took it out for about 20 minutes on the highway and a few local roads.
At the Lexus dealer, the salesperson guided me towards an ES330. Since all three they had were equipped exactly the same way, it didn't matter which color or equipment level I chose. I drove on a pre-chosen route, which lasted about 25 minutes, on a long country road and a few local ones.
I decided to skip the Acura TL since the local dealer has a bad reputation.
I'm a big believer in test-driving everything that might end up in your garage (for me it would have been one of three Japanese Midsize Entry Level Luxury Cars) and researching everything about those cars from every imaginable source. I read all the Edmunds Reviews, all the CR reviews, all the reviews from the buff mags, the Intellichoice ratings, everything.
All that research narrows the field down to a few cars, and one test drive will tell me which one suits my needs the best.
And there must be a lot of people who test drive what would otherwise be an ideal car for them, but are disappointed in the ride and look elsewhere.
At least that's my guess from reading dozens of posts in the last few years about dealers forgetting to air down the tires after shipping.
Hey Karl, is there a small/midsize (non-luxury) SUV Comparison Test scheduled any time soon? The recent Full Size Sedan test was nicely timed to coincide with the drop in SUV sales. :shades:
was perfect for me in the sense that it provided the legroom I needed, the headroom I needed (something the ES330 was lacking) a decent amount of prestige, a nice fat discount and to top it all off, 1.9% APR financing!
And it was a good middle-ground between the sporty TL and the ultra-conservative ES330.
One of the flaws IMHO is that sometimes these surveys measure the 'hassle factor' of problems more than the size of the problems... For example a window regulator went out on my 325i after a year... the dealer replaced all 4 under warranty and gave me a loaner for the day. It was no big deal and no hassle. But- if I'd had to pay for all 4 windows at $500 each myself or wait weeks for parts with a window down I'd have slammed them in the surveys. So, I believe that a lot of the quality surveys also measure dealer experience. Perhaps this is why Buicks always fare better than identical Chevys and Pontiacs in surveys... come to think of it, the same is true for Mercurys and Fords, isn't it?
Absolutely agree. The CR survey asks if the car had "serious" problems in 17 specific areas affecting cost, safety, or downtime. If the dealer is incompetent (say, multiple trips for the same repair) or the parts distribution center doesn't have its act together, then the car deserves to be dinged, in my opinion.
For some reason I'd rather have that completely separate from the car's ratings. Give me the car's ratings and then maybe a separate "Service and Dealer satisfaction" rating. But that's just me.
A funny thing happened on the way to buying a G35...on a test drive of the 6 speed the back of the car lifted off the ground on a corner while cresting a hill at 80 mph. My stomach came out of my throat and my search continued for a car in the class.
I'm a little confused. Is there some unreported dangerous handling characteristic of the G35? Or would any car do that over that exact road?
since I do all the instrumented testing for Edmunds
Ah. Then I have a question. I read the 300C SRT-8 road test follow-up and noticed that you got 65.2mph through the slalom. I knew this was an awesome figure, as lots of cars can pull lateral Gs on a skidpad but slalom poorly. So I looked up some numbers for sporty cars and discovered that this slalom speed is within 1.4mph of an M3!!! And it was better in 60-0 braking. It even had a 1/4 mile trap speed within 0.3mph (which is useful for comparing power to weight ratios). I just thought that was amazing, from a vehicle much, much larger, heavier, bigger inside, and 10 grand less. Any comments?
I'm a little confused. Is there some unreported dangerous handling characteristic of the G35? Or would any car do that over that exact road?
Many reviews do mention the G35 gets a little skittish in handling at times. I know from personal experience with my 330i on the same road I cannot duplicate the odd sensation of the backend lifting off the ground. Drive the two cars back to back and there is a difference in how connected they are to the road. Not saying better, just different.
my neighbor has an '02 m3. he has let me drive it a few times. lucky me! the most obvious difference to the srt-8 would be a manual vs. automatic transmission. i know there is a pretty easy software upgrade to the m3 that helps a lot. this is because he made me drive it first after we did the reflash! if i had to sit in the back seat, i would pick the 300.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Hey Karl, is there a small/midsize (non-luxury) SUV Comparison Test scheduled any time soon? The recent Full Size Sedan test was nicely timed to coincide with the drop in SUV sales.
There hasn't been a great deal of activity in these segments since these tests, though the Pathfinder, Durango and 4Runner are all new since then. And there have been plenty of minor upgrades (Highlander now has three seats and hybrid drivetrain, the Pilot has had minor improvements, such as the 2nd seat adjustments, the Ford Explorer is due for a major revision next year -- new styling and more powerful engine).
We'll probably wait for the revised Explorer (due in the Fall) and then re-visit the midsize SUV segment again. Not sure when we'll hit crossovers again.
I'm a little confused. Is there some unreported dangerous handling characteristic of the G35? Or would any car do that over that exact road?
Here's a direct quote from our 2002 Entry-Level Luxury Sport Sedan Test: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=73569/pageId=29721 The G's stability control system, dubbed VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) goes about its business in a unobtrusive fashion. Shut off the system, however, and the rear end can get loose when pressing hard.
That's actually a kind translation of what I said after driving the G35 through the slalom. Basically, it scarred the bejesus out of me once I turned off VDC because it could spin suddenly, with little-to-no warning. Up until that point I had liked the car, just like every other mainstream publication, but after that experience I decided it was too skittish at the limit. Curiously, I read a comparison test in Car & Driver a few weeks later, and they said almost the exact same thing. I can't remember the direct quote, but it was something like, "During twisty road driving we tried disabling the VDC, quickly learned about the car's rotational inertia behavior, and never turned the VDC off again!"
For most drivers, most of the time, they'll probably never even know about this trait (how many people ever actually turn off stability control and drive aggressively?). For me, it was enough to keep the 3 Series well out in front in terms of "ultimate sport sedan."
Comments
I see nothing standard about the metallic colors (in general) used on German cars. Japanese cars, well I've only seen one color that blew me away - it's an odd slate gray thing on the G35.
What is funny though, VW doesn't charge for the nice paint jobs, Audi does. :confuse:
--Robert
The small town dealership now does ALL my work, regardless of where I originally purchased the car. It was one of the most important aspects of three car purchase decisions, all of which were from the same small town dealer. And, the sales experience was equally as pleasant and just about as easy as I have ever had. I purchased two of the three cars over the telephone with the same salesman (who has been at this store for over 20 years, IIRC), left a credit card deposit, and picked up the car at my convenience.
One car ('03 Olds Aurora) has required several warrantly repairs for stuff like sunroof rattles, defective bose speaker, replace the back seat due to sagging, that kind of stuff. The sunroof rattle took two visits to repair to my total satisfaction, but I was impressed that they not only took the time, but kept me posted, and followed up after the service to make sure I was satisfied.
This positive experience has resulted in my recommending this dealership's service area to others, and feedback from those that used them was very positive. I had one friend take me to dinner for "letting them in on the secret".
Sadly I don't think the person who owns Infiniti of Nashville sent out a memo like that... I'm being treated slightly better, but not much better than how I'm treated at the local Honda dealer.
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kirstie_h
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2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/103264/article.html
Bottom line -- Car companies can't depend on just the product to succeed anymore, because they are all making essentially good product. As clearly stated in recent posts, even GM can win converts and maintain loyalties if their dealerships offer consistently good service. And even Honda or BMW will lose customers if their dealers are jerks.
Cars are just too good these days for any one manufacturer to hold sway over consumers based purly on product. Dealer service (and creative design) are really the two final frontiers left in this industry. To the victor will go the spoils.
Here is the simple break down:
Have to start with a DSG model, because the tranny is just tool cool -- $26,140
Have to go with Sport Package, because you get leather, sport tuned suspension, performance tires, leather wrapped steering wheel with audio controls (very cool thumb dials) and fog lights. You also get aluminum interior trim and a rear spoiler, which I could take or leave, but don't have a problem with -- $1,800
At that point the car costs $28,660 (with destination), and really has everything I need. Don't forget that dual-zone climate control, cruise control, one-touch down AND UP windows all around, keyless entry and a 10-speaker, 140-watt sound system with single CD player come standard. If you spring for the sound package and metallic paint you're at $30,010, before the first word of grinding...uh, I mean negotiation. The Sound Package makes the audio system very strong, but the base system is still very good, so I'd save the $900 on the sound package and spend it toward the $700 Convenience Package, making your price $29,810 and giving you Homelink, autodimming interior mirror and light/rain sensor (also storage tray and trip computer, but it's silly that those cost extra).
Or spend the $700 on Cold Weather package and get heated seats, heated exterior mirrors and heated windshield washer nozzles (and a ski sack -- woo-hoo!!). Nix the metallic paint and the cost is $29,360 with either package, or $30,060 with both. Now you can add xenon lights for $500 and still be below $30,600.
Regardless of your personal needs, you can get an A3 pretty well equipped for under, or right at, $30,000, and that's MSRP before you start grinding (you do grind when you buy a car, don't you?).
I'm not saying there aren't other great cars out there for $30,000, but as a totally new model with cool styling, extremely advanced drivetrain features, great handling (if you get Sport Package) and standard-issue Audi interior quality, it's a pretty unique offering.
So are all you guys now wondering what the gift was on the press trip to make me love the A3 so much? Ha! Gotcha! :P
Also, not trying to start anything. So please do not think so.
You have conveyed your overall distaste for the HHR. If you were to review it would you be able to put aside your predisposition and be objective? What I am saying is that with many products, people have formed an opinion often before trying them for themselves. In order for ones opinion to really change the product has to be way better than expectations. This is in a way is just human nature. Do you understand what I am trying to get across?
Since the previous conversations about reviewers being fair and objective I re-read many reviews from various media outlets. After doing so, I would tend to agree that Edmunds does seem to be the most consistent and objective in their reviews.
As always, thanks for your response.
I know that I went and test drove a Subaru Baja with a smirk in the back of my mind. I knew the thing was an oddity in the market. But when it came to driving it, the things that stood out were not the things I had expected to find. I still didn't like the vehicle, but I had a whole new set of reasons.
GM seems to talk only about new product. On their blogs and other sites I read nothing about improving service or seriously polling the customers for feedback via clinics or extended surveying. The surveys they hype discuss quality after 3 months, Not long term.
Perhaps Lutz thinks that buying a new car every year is the way to get "quality"? I don't know - he ain't talking about that.
And yes, I realize many people will say "quit whining, play the game, get a new car every year". My sincere congrats to those who make enough money and have the time to pursue that.
Just checked the road test schedule, and we have a GXP coming June 6-13.
You have conveyed your overall distaste for the HHR. If you were to review it would you be able to put aside your predisposition and be objective?
An extremely good (and fair) question.
The experience I am currently having with the Corvette provides a good answer.
After reading all the standard hype for the C6 ("All-new Corvette! Redesigned and better than ever!!" yada-yada-yada) I had relatively high expectations. Then I drove two of them last fall, both coupes, and was moderately to extremely disappointed (moderately on the first one with auto and Z51, extremely on the second one with manual and no Z51).
I had pretty much written off the C6 as overblown hype meant for diehard domestic fans who refuse to acknowledge any foreign cars (regardless of how much better they may be). But when a convertible appeared on the road test scheduled I decided to take the story myself (not an easy decision, as I usually have plenty to keep me busy without doing any actual road testing). My thinking was this -- if I didn't like the convertible, too, than any lingering questions regarding my low opinion of the C6 would be squelched. I'd be fully comfortable with not liking the car.
And, just as vitally, if there was something positive I missed on the first two drives this third experience would give the model one more chance to redeem itself.
As I've already stated, the combination of six-speed manual, Z51 suspension, convertible top and red paint has proven very compelling, and I'm willing to acknowledge the 'Vette's compelling arguments as to why it is still a great vehicle. This is particularly interesting because our original test car was an orange automatic convertible (with Z51), but at the last minute we got a different test car with manual and red paint (and still Z51)
So, long-story-turned-novel, it is entirely possible for a car to change an editor's opinion, no matter how low (or high) that opinion is before actually driving the car. The Corvette has manged to both dash my hopes, and regain my favor, without even undergoing a redesign. In this case, it calls out the importance of getting a good test vehicle with the right combination of features (something we alluded to in both previous tests, where we questioned the equipment set-up on both test vehicles).
The real critical element here is that the road test editor must go into each test with an open mind, even if he already has a strong opinion. Everyone knows I think the HHR is a mistake, but most of my negative opinion comes from GM taking too long to bring it to market and offering too little horsepower. Both of these are theoretical complaints at best (they have to be, because I haven't actually driven the car yet). I'm also not thrilled with the styling, but I always put that aspect low on my priority list when reviewing a car because it's such a personal element.
If I drive the HHR and it handles superbly, feels quick despite the horsepower ratings (and backs up those feelings with track testing), and offers as much or more utility than the PT Cruiser or Toyota Matrix (two primary competitors based on price and vehicle design) then I will acknowledge the car's positive points and give it an overall positive review, regardless of my previous feelings. There's no doubt I've got negative preconceptions of the car, but in the end it's the product that matters most. As long as I remember that, and take the perspective of likely buyers when reviewing it, everything else will fall into place.
And now that I know that you all know my feelings toward the HHR, I'll be working twice as hard to be unbiased when I finally drive it.
If only all could follow these guidelines.
Great answer. It was intended to be a general question. I just used the HHR as my example because I had an inkling of how you felt.
Well, I hear that a lot, but I have to believe that the initial study is a pretty good indicator of what the results will be when JD Power does their midterm reliability ratings. Which brings me to today's news:
Toyota, GM Top J.D. Power Quality Survey (Inside Line)
Steve, Host
WHY?
I'm not saying that there isn't any correlation between initial fit and finish and the quality of assembly overall, but reliability would be much more dependent on the quality of materials and the skill of the engineers who design the car..
Deficiencies in those areas are the ones that show up over time and miles...
I really don't have much interest in a 90-day ranking (although my CCBA status belies that statement), except as a disqualifier..
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kyfdx
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Steve, Host
I looked up my two current cars: 03 Mazda Protege and 03 BMW 330i. don't agree with the ratings on either car. BMW's got 4 stars for mechanical quality? Pro's got 2? Uh, flip those and actually make the Pro a 5 star for mechanical quality. Overall quality shows 3 series at 4 stars! And the pro at only 3? What the blazes?! Flip those. Features and instrument panel only gets 3? I'd give both a 4 just for the instrument panels alone. comfort, the 3 gets 3 stars? I can't think of another car I'd want on a 500 mile drive at 90 mph.
Steve, Host
Fully understand. I just look at those ratings sometimes and scratch my head. It all seems so subjective.
There's a longstanding assumption that these various study groups (Consumer Reports, Strategic Vision, etc.) have some sort of direct tap into an all-knowing, all-conquering source of automotive information. That their results are somehow "certified" by an unidentified (but still quite real) impartial board of high-ranking judges or referees, and thus their results are beyond reproach.
Obviously, none of these study groups does anything to alter this impression because, accurate or not, an image like this greatly increases their influence throughout the industry.
Now I'm going to make a theoretically obvious statement that, for far too many, isn't that obvious:
There is no "outside certification" of their results. These companies send out a bunch questionnaires, they get some back, and they tally the results. This should be obvious to everyone, but I always feel like the statement "Consumer Reports says that..." is somehow seen as gospel by too many people. To be fully accurate, these press releases should say, "Consumer Reports sent out a bunch of surveys to average, ordinary folks, we got some back, and we tallied the results. We can't by any means certify that these results will reflect your own experience with this product, because we only did a relatively small sampling compared to the total number of products out there and, quite honestly, we don't even know how knowledgeable the folks were who responded, and we did nothing to verify their own ratings skill when it comes to vehicle design or ownership experience."
Obviously, making this sort of statement wouldn't add to the credibility to the results, but it would be a more accurate way to describe them.
I know I've already referenced the time a 14,000-mile, 2003 Honda Pilot snapped its timing belt, stranding me and my family in the middle (and I do mean the middle) of no where. Here is the specific article:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=76080/pageId=56689
That experience confirmed what everyone should already know -- regardless of what the experts say about a given product, your results may vary.
In my humble opinion, the best method for discerning the truth about a car comes from two sources:
1. Professional automotive writers who drive nearly every vehicle on the market (and thus have a unique perspective shared by few owners)
2. Current owners of a vehicle who have had said vehicle for at least one year (thus having a perspective shared by few automotive writers)
I would add two footnotes to the above sources:
1. Professional automotive writers will have a definite advantage on understanding the basic strengths and weaknesses of a vehicle within the segment it competes, but their long-term ownership/dealership experience will be almost non-existent, unless they have a long-term vehicle in their publication's fleet
2. Current owners will be the opposite; they'll know all about long-term wear and durability issues, and they'll know about their own dealership experiences, but they won't be able to honestly rate their own vehicle against competitors (I know, it's a harsh statement, but we're all friends here -- and we all know that when you spend thousands of dollars on a vehicle, the ability to say "Wow, this vehicle isn't very good. I guess I made a big mistake when I bought it" is greatly diminished).
BTW, I think forums like this are the single best source of ownership feedback, because they are real time versus the belabored process of sending out surveys, getting back surveys, tallying surveys, and reporting the results of surveys. If I'm about to buy a certified 2002-2004 Honda Odyssey for my wife (which I am, by the way) I can go to the Honda Odyssey forum, ask people about ownership issues and suggested dealers in my area and get immediate feedback. Beats the hell out of a Consumer Reports study, at least in my admittedly totally biased opinion.
I agree with the comment that 90-day ownership studies reflect almost nothing, except maybe the purchase experience. Most people haven't even gone in for their first service at 90-days, and very few modern vehicles experience any serious flaws in 90 days (and, usually, very few recalls are issued in the first 90 days).
If I'd been sent a Consumer Reports survey 90 days after getting the Honda Pilot, I would have given it glowing reviews. But those reviews wouldn't really reflect my long-term ownership experience, would they?
I should note that the folks at Goudy Honda felt horrible when they found out what happened, and they reimbursed me for the tow and hotel charges after the Pilot went DOA in Utah. They also changed their system of service to ensure that all cars where checked for recall notices, even when coming in for a simple 7,500-mile service (which is basically an oil change and cursory inspection).
Steve, Host
And further proof that no one should buy any car (new or used) until they run through the associated forums here.
It seems the following rules are in order if/when I buy a certified Odyssey:
1. Make sure it has the Honda Certification
2. Make sure all recalls/TSBs have been addressed
3. Make sure I pay extra attention to the tranny's performance, and acknowlege the possibility of having it replaced (under warranty) if/when necessary
I had already planned for number 1, but 2 and 3 are new additions based on reading that discussion thread.
Thanks Steve!
And surveys give plenty more than 30. They let you take in, in two seconds, more people's experiences than you can read about in a forum in a whole day of reading.
A lot of people take surveys as something to be blown off, but the alternative is a sample of several emotional car haters or lovers. It's simply the best way of condensing all the information that we personally give out one sound bite at a time.
I will say that Consumer Reports gives a very superficial view, but it's not useless. If I only had 30 seconds to research a vehicle, it's where I would go. But the ideal use of a very broad, unspecific source of information like CR is to help out in the very first stages of picking a vehicle, and then coming up with more specific questions to ask and issues to look for. I highly doubt that if you ask for details first, you'll cover all the bases that CR does.
the best method for discerning the truth about a car comes from two sources:
1. Professional automotive writers who drive nearly every vehicle on the market (and thus have a unique perspective shared by few owners)
How can someone else's opinion on how a car feels, drives and looks guide a prospective buyer toward truth? Maybe I'm odd with the way I help friends and family buy cars, but I do my best to get them into as many cars as possible. I find out what they want in a vehicle, what their price range is and if they have definitive "no way" makes/models (pretty universally everyone says no american cars at all). From there I do my best to expose them to a wide range of vehicles that meet and ideally exceed their expectations.
Some people say driving 10-15 cars takes too much time - read the reviews from experts and avoid the lemons. Well, they're about to spend 25-40k on something they will drive daily for 3-7 years. I'd say it's well worth one's time to find the car, even if that takes 15-20 hours of looking. I'd hate to think I helped someone buy and they didn't end the process positive they found the exact car they wanted.
A friend wanted a sporty hatchback but also possibly a compact SUV. She is opposed to American/German cars and prefers manuals. She wanted to stay south of 30k. So I got her seat time in a Matrix, RAV4, Element, CR-V, xB, tC, Tribute, Prius, RSX, Accord coupe V6 (not hatch but she loves Hondas), Mazda6 hatch/wagon, Mazda3 5 door. I knew the Mazda3 was pretty much her ideal car. In the end that's what she bought. Most importantly though she's positive she got the perfect car for her lifestyle. She only knew that once she had seen/felt the competition. Reading articles from professionals is amusing but it can't really replace the value and knowledge that comes from seat time. Melissa, when it was over, could concretely state positives and minuses of the cars she drove. In my eyes that's invaluable.
A guy on the boards informed me once that he only test drove one car - the one he bought. He was adamant this was the best thing. He "knew" the others in the class couldn't compare based on stats, cost and reviews. Yeah, I "knew" I wanted a G35 in 2003. No expensive, unreliable, badge-hound BMW 3 series for me. No way. Infiniti had the powerful, comfy, economical, nice, luxurious sporty sedan market cornered for me. The mags confirmed the G35 was a 3 series killer. Add in cost and the G beat the 3 hands down. Why blow 40k on a german car, when I can get one of my beloved Nissans for 8k less?! A funny thing happened on the way to buying a G35...on a test drive of the 6 speed the back of the car lifted off the ground on a corner while cresting a hill at 80 mph. My stomach came out of my throat and my search continued for a car in the class. What I 'knew" wasn't enough to make an informed decision without driving all the cars in the class.
Forums are a great tool for learning about price, possible common problems, fixes, etc. But there's no replacement for actually driving the cars.
How can someone else's opinion on how a car feels, drives and looks guide a prospective buyer toward truth?
and:
So I got her seat time in a Matrix, RAV4, Element, CR-V, xB, tC, Tribute, Prius, RSX, Accord coupe V6 (not hatch but she loves Hondas), Mazda6 hatch/wagon, Mazda3 5 door.
The one advantage an automotive writer will have over almost any consumer is that he/she can drive all the cars you mentioned above in rapid succession over the exact same roads.
All cars are so good these days that you have to drive two or more competitors, back-to-back, over the same roads with quality seat time (at least 30 miles on varying road types), to truly uncover the minor, but important, differences.
If you spend one weekend and go to multiple dealers and drive multiple models that is good...but if your are going to different dealers you probably aren't driving each model over the exact same roads (unless you're in an auto mall and have a carefully mapped route), and you're probably only getting 15 minutes/a few miles of seat time. And it's probably anywhere from 30 minutes to several hours between each test drive (depending on how long the salesman plays the old "What will it take to get you into this car today?" game after each test drive). Undeniably, if everyone who bought a new car did at least this much work they'd be much better off than the person who buys the first car he test drives.
But even the diligent test driver isn't going to recreate the circumstances we use in our comparison tests. For example, when we did our recent Midsize Truck Comparison test, we got every single model on the market, all in the same basic configuration (biggest available engine, crew cab, 4x4). Then we drove all five over the exact same route, back-to-back, within a few hours. When you have just hopped from a 40-mile test loop of a Toyota Tacoma, and then immediately hop into a Nissan Frontier and do the same test loop, you are aware of every difference, big and small, from seat comfort to ride quality to power delivery, etc. And don't forget, that's just our "on-road" evaluation part of a comparison test. We also park all the vehicles in a comparison test together and hop from vehicle to vehicle, in quick succession, to evaluation interior quality, storage capacity, ergonomics, etc. And, we live with most comparison test vehicles for a total of two weeks, with each model rotating between contributing editors (beyond the test's official author, to get additional perspective) on a daily basis. Again, this is on top of the back-to-back driving loops that we cram into one day, two at the most if the test has more than five competitors.
Even waiting a few hours, and/or driving a different type of vehicle in between two direct competitors, will begin to degrade your evaluation of both vehicles. If, for example, you drive a Toyota Camry to the local BMW dealer and go on a 15-minute 3 Series drive, then get back into your Camry, drive to lunch, then drive several miles to the local Audi dealer, and then drive an A4 on a different set of roads for 15 minutes, you will probably have a sense of which seat you liked better and which interior design you preferred, but steering quality, ride quality, interior material quality, even power delivery will be tough to accurately compare between the two.
Trust me on this. I've tried it both ways.
So, in answer to your question:
How can someone else's opinion on how a car feels, drives and looks guide a prospective buyer toward truth?
If that "someone else" is an automotive writer that has had in-depth, back-to-back experience with all the cars from a single segment, he will have a better understanding of each models' strengths and weaknesses than most potential buyers. He still can't tell a given person what car is best for them, because he doesn't know that person's individual preferences. But if the automotive writer reports on those strengths and weaknesses, and the buyer reads the report and lines himself up with the car that is strongest where he most desires strength, he'll have a good place to start his personal test drives and confirm the best car -- for him.
Also, don't forget that there's a sort of accumulated knowledge that comes from driving hundreds of new cars over the years. Ten years ago I couldn't have accurately described the difference between "good" and "bad" interior materials. Now, I can get into any modern vehicle and immediately have a sense of where a car lands in the spectrum of "good" to "bad" interior quality because I know all the little tricks manufacturers do to make their interiors look as good as possible, and I know just where to look to uncover any weaknesses. The same thing holds true for steering feel, braking performance (especially under emergency braking since I do all the instrumented testing for Edmunds), ride quality, etc.
Ideally, I still like to be part of comparison tests for an entire segment to really crystallize my opinion of each model, but the accumulated experience of driving so many different cars, regularly, definitely adds up after several years and tens of thousands of miles in new cars.
You said yourself, "Well, they're about to spend 25-40k on something they will drive daily for 3-7 years."
Exactly. How can someone who shops for a new car every 3-7 years have a strong sense of the overall market in terms of interior quality, ride quality, ergonomics, etc.? If you've been in the same car for five years, and then you go test drive a new vehicle, any vehicle you drive will seem "pretty good" at the very least, and it might seem amazing to you -- even if it's the worst vehicle in the segment.
So I'm a big believer in both -- personal test drives and professional reviews.
GM did this with their "autoshow in motion", allowing John Q public to drive and compare a slew of cars and trucks around the same courses. It's not perfect - Some cars were not available (no Chrysler 300's or any Audis were present). Also no idea what it cost GM (they provided free parking and even a sack lunch). Still, it was a great way to compare cars quickly, and it helps "prep" a customer so they know what they should consider and not waste the dealers time "joy riding".
To be fair, an autocross-like (in the loosest sense of the word) course wasn't going to play the strengths of some of their cars. Though I was surprised that I really liked the CTS's handling and driving, but hated its interior.
That brings up a point about test drives... I guess it depends on how lucky you are with the dealership, but how often is a test drive actually useful? Some only let you go around the block. Other times you can go on a mile of highway, then around the block. That's when I'll take the word of an automotive writer over my 5 minutes of limited experience, at least when I was ambivalent about something.
Those that don't want to let me take my own route (about 10 miles total), I back away from even getting to the negotiation table. That'll usually change their mind regarding using my route as opposed to theirs. Of course, after the first 10 minutes, the salesperson in the passenger seat begins to get "antsy", but reinforcing the idea of a more thorough test drive, yields the salesperson more time to close me.
My favorites are those that throw me the keys, no salesperson along, and tells me to take it for a spin. Those instances are rare, but I do have a good relationship with a few dealerships that allow me to do exactly that. Matter of fact, my local BMW dealer will let me keep their car overnight, if I request it.
Personally, I don't know how you can make an informed decision on a major purchase like a car without a thorough test drive typical of your day-to-day use of a car. A 5-10 minute run won't do it.
As Karl says, if you're comparing one car to another, it's imperative to drive them, at the very least, the same day over the same route.....preferably, back-to-back.
At the Infiniti dealer, the salesperson asked me which I35 I wanted to test-drive. I randomly selected one, and he tossed me the keys and said "I'll see you in a few minutes" and walked away. I took it out for about 20 minutes on the highway and a few local roads.
At the Lexus dealer, the salesperson guided me towards an ES330. Since all three they had were equipped exactly the same way, it didn't matter which color or equipment level I chose. I drove on a pre-chosen route, which lasted about 25 minutes, on a long country road and a few local ones.
I decided to skip the Acura TL since the local dealer has a bad reputation.
I'm a big believer in test-driving everything that might end up in your garage (for me it would have been one of three Japanese Midsize Entry Level Luxury Cars) and researching everything about those cars from every imaginable source. I read all the Edmunds Reviews, all the CR reviews, all the reviews from the buff mags, the Intellichoice ratings, everything.
All that research narrows the field down to a few cars, and one test drive will tell me which one suits my needs the best.
At least that's my guess from reading dozens of posts in the last few years about dealers forgetting to air down the tires after shipping.
Hey Karl, is there a small/midsize (non-luxury) SUV Comparison Test scheduled any time soon? The recent Full Size Sedan test was nicely timed to coincide with the drop in SUV sales. :shades:
Steve, Host
And it was a good middle-ground between the sporty TL and the ultra-conservative ES330.
I'm a little confused. Is there some unreported dangerous handling characteristic of the G35? Or would any car do that over that exact road?
Ah. Then I have a question. I read the 300C SRT-8 road test follow-up and noticed that you got 65.2mph through the slalom. I knew this was an awesome figure, as lots of cars can pull lateral Gs on a skidpad but slalom poorly. So I looked up some numbers for sporty cars and discovered that this slalom speed is within 1.4mph of an M3!!! And it was better in 60-0 braking. It even had a 1/4 mile trap speed within 0.3mph (which is useful for comparing power to weight ratios). I just thought that was amazing, from a vehicle much, much larger, heavier, bigger inside, and 10 grand less. Any comments?
Many reviews do mention the G35 gets a little skittish in handling at times. I know from personal experience with my 330i on the same road I cannot duplicate the odd sensation of the backend lifting off the ground. Drive the two cars back to back and there is a difference in how connected they are to the road. Not saying better, just different.
I still wish I liked the G35 enough to buy one.
The last one we did along these lines was a crossover comparison test, but it was back in fall 2003:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=100318
And we did a serious mid-size SUV comparison test back in 2002:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=53479
There hasn't been a great deal of activity in these segments since these tests, though the Pathfinder, Durango and 4Runner are all new since then. And there have been plenty of minor upgrades (Highlander now has three seats and hybrid drivetrain, the Pilot has had minor improvements, such as the 2nd seat adjustments, the Ford Explorer is due for a major revision next year -- new styling and more powerful engine).
We'll probably wait for the revised Explorer (due in the Fall) and then re-visit the midsize SUV segment again. Not sure when we'll hit crossovers again.
Here's a direct quote from our 2002 Entry-Level Luxury Sport Sedan Test:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=73569/pageId=29721
The G's stability control system, dubbed VDC (Vehicle Dynamic Control) goes about its business in a unobtrusive fashion. Shut off the system, however, and the rear end can get loose when pressing hard.
That's actually a kind translation of what I said after driving the G35 through the slalom. Basically, it scarred the bejesus out of me once I turned off VDC because it could spin suddenly, with little-to-no warning. Up until that point I had liked the car, just like every other mainstream publication, but after that experience I decided it was too skittish at the limit. Curiously, I read a comparison test in Car & Driver a few weeks later, and they said almost the exact same thing. I can't remember the direct quote, but it was something like, "During twisty road driving we tried disabling the VDC, quickly learned about the car's rotational inertia behavior, and never turned the VDC off again!"
For most drivers, most of the time, they'll probably never even know about this trait (how many people ever actually turn off stability control and drive aggressively?). For me, it was enough to keep the 3 Series well out in front in terms of "ultimate sport sedan."