Glad to see that segment heating backup. My question though is if the Challanger is going to be based on the LX platform, wouldn't it be more a competitor to the GTO rather than the Mustang due to size? Although if they can hit price marks that compete with the Mustang, I doubt the size difference would matter that much to the market. Very curious to see how this will be styled.
Although to be honest, I never cared for the Challanger's styling. Chargers yes, but the only Challengers I remember were bloated blobs that I just didn't care for.
I was kind of hoping for a response about post #488 that I wrote. Curious as to your take at what I was trying to convey.
And for those who didn't see it, the theme of his comment was:
I am not sure exactly what my point is here. So lets say it is this - the media (in general) praises the vehicles that only a small percent of the consumers buy and dismisses the qualities that the majority desires.
I agree with you 100% -- with regards to most publications. I have long believed that too many "enthusiast publications" write to only "enthusiasts" readers which, honestly, make up maybe 10% of the car-buying public.
But there's a double-edged sword here. If you're an enthusiast you seek out information on cars, and generally you don't want to read about the four-cylinder, automatic version. If you're a four-cylinder, automatic buyer, you probably don't read enthusiast publications, you just buy new car when you need one (every 4-6 years) and call it day. Not much sense in creating an automotive publication for these guys, at least not one with daily or weekly updates because these readers will only stop by twice a decade.
There is a small fringe of readers who break this rule. These are guys who are, by all measurements, enthusiasts, but they still want to see a comparison test on four-cylinder family sedans. And there are those people who aren't really enthusiasts, but they do like to read the "buff books" and/or automotive Web sites on a regular basis. In both cases, these people don't want to hear about the exotic/supercharged/top-speed record holders every day/week/month. Instead, they want to hear about how the volume-selling, $20,000 sedans stack up against each other.
Can one publication please all of these readers? Not a traditional publication. But maybe a modern automotive Web site with multiple facets. Stay tuned...
OK, so I'm ready to modify my former opinion of the C6.
Previously I have driven two C6 Corvettes. An automatic with Z51 suspsension (orange), and a manual without Z51 (dark blue). Neither was an ideal set-up, and neither car blew me away to say the least. I felt like the steering was too slow and heavy in the automatic car, and body roll was excessive in the manaul car (the one without Z51). Neither car felt particularly fast, either.
Today I instrument tested a Z51, manual shift convertible (red no less). This was also my first experience with a convertible C6.
This car instantly won me over. It feels quicker than the last manual I drove (even though it is a heavier convertible), and it feels more buttoned down than the automatic that also had Z51 (again, even though it is a convertible with theoretically more body flex).
The car is by no means perfect. The 2-3 upshift is waaaaay too difficult to execute smoothly because of the notchy shifter, and there was massive interior squeak from around the dash in the slalom (presumably from the body flexing, which was causing the dash to flex against the door panels). It took several acceleration runs before I could confidently carry off the 2-3 upshift with any real confidence and speed, and I'm certain it was still costing me at least a few tenths in quarter-mile time.
But it still pulled impressive acceleration and slalom numbers, not to mention braking. Here are today's numbers (acceleration times corrected for conditions):
That's pretty amazing when you consider that this was a convertible. I'd like to put this car up against a 911 Cabrio. I'm not necessarily convinced it would win, but it should be much closer than that comparo was, and the overall driving characteristics would make me consider this over a 911 Cabrio -- with price factored in (after that last comparison test I was basically saying, "I don't care how much more the 911 costs, I'll take it over the 'Vette and each macaroni and cheese for three years if I have to!").
We have this car for the next 12 days, and I'm writing the follow up road test on it. I'll let you know how it performs over an extended period.
editor Karl, just want to say thanks for the opportunity to have some input into your meeting with mr lutz. although i missed it, i just hope everyone can appreciate that gift from you. i'm a ford guy ever since my dad came home with a '56 fairlane that had an engine with thunderbird valve covers on it. i want gm to do better than they are doing now. i talked my mom into buying an '03 malibu after buying a chrysler product every 10 years since 1964. so far she has had zero problems with it.
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
Seems like GM finally is getting its ducks in a row... Yay! Maybe it's time to load up on GM stock...
Just kidding. But I'm glad to hear that GM is finally back on track to making themselves profitable.
When are the embargo dates? And did Mr. Lutz mention anything about Saab? I would absolutely love to see an all new compact (not midsize) FWD luxury hatchback engineered from the ground up by Saab, priced between $24,500 and $29,500, with a sedan variant and possibly a convertible.
When are the 9-2X and 9-7X going to be axed anyways?
Can one publication please all of these readers? Not a traditional publication. But maybe a modern automotive Web site with multiple facets. Stay tuned...
Just IMO, my ideal magazine would be somewhere in-between the "cars as appliance" Consumer Reports approach and the "here's 20 pages about the latest $200K Ferrari" approach of the "buff books"
...of the traditional magazines, Car & Driver comes closest. They have the most road tests by far, and many of the cars tested are ones the average person can buy. For example, the latest issue has a comparo of midsize pickups.
Yeah, I think you're right - Car & Driver seems to do a little better job than the others of testing some "mainstream" cars that people can actually afford.
would be somewhere between the Consumer Reports style of "It's just a car" and Motor Trend's "THE ALL NEW $400,000 EXOTIC SPORTS CAR!" Car And Driver comes close, but it's a little closer to Motor Trend than I'd like, but I guess I'm asking too much.
just want to say thanks for the opportunity to have some input into your meeting with mr lutz.
My pleasure. I should have mentioned earlier that during our lunch I asked Mr. Lutz' about his blog, and he talked about how much he enjoyed having a direct voice to the consumers, without any media outlets "spinning" his words. I told him I was doing a daily discussion/blog and that several people had mentioned Lutz' blog in my discussion. He seemed pleased. I also attributed the "small, rear-wheel drive platform" question as coming directly from the people in my discussion, and Lutz obviously understood and appreciated the source.
I'll certainly let everyone know about any upcoming meetings with auto execs so we can do it again!
...of the traditional magazines, Car & Driver comes closest. They have the most road tests by far, and many of the cars tested are ones the average person can buy. For example, the latest issue has a comparo of midsize pickups.
Admittedly, the Japanese Sport Sedan test has cars that are kind of expensive, and performance oriented, but the average price of the test vehicles in the other tests is below $35,000, and you can't remotely call the Hybrid/Diesel SUV or Midsize Truck comparisons "sporty." Even the Full-Size Sedan test is pretty basic and "mainstream" oriented to help buyers looking for a "real" car.
But the original comment regarding most publications focusing on mostly performance models (those that appeal to a small percentage of the buying public) holds true. Inside Line will try to spread the love around evenly between the gear heads and the real-world users, but we always appreciate this type of feedback.
The automatic was actually well suited to the car, both in terms of shift quality and power delivery. It was the easiest version to launch during acceleration testing, which gave it impressive 0-60 and quarter-mile times. But the fact remains that a $50,000 sports car, built in 2005, should not have four gears, even in automatic form.
Why wasn't The Ford Escape included in your Hybrid/Diesel Roundup? I consider the Ford Escape to be the father of hybrid SUVs, and it's an afforable vehicle unlike the Lexus RX400h. You mentioned that you're putting it through a long term test, but still you could have included it.
Do you when another full size hybrid truck will be introduced? Chevrolet already has the Silverado, and I'm pretty sure that Ford will be next with a hybrid F-150 and Mark LT.
The Ford Escape seems to have been forgotten... I expected them to be a hit, but here in Berkeley I don't think I've seen a single one yet. (I know they're hard to spot versus regular Escapes, but I see way more Priuses and Civic hybrids than I see any kind of Escapes.) Berkeley isn't short on small SUVs; that's not why it's not selling here.
Is an Escape hybrid that much slower than a Prius?
IMO, fuel economy is low on a SUV buyer's list of priorities, or they wouldn't be looking at an SUV in the first place...They take one look at the Escape Hybrid's MSRP and think "geez, I could get an Explorer (or Expedition?)for that money"
I know that Ford had a pretty long wait list for the Escape HEV when it was first introduced. Lots of pre-ordered vehicles. I'm not sure where it stands right now, but I'm sure sales are limited by production capacity. The batteries are hard to get.
That said, it appears the biggest cross-section of hybrid buyers are those looking for the green image. So the Prius and Civic own the lion's share of sales.
The Escape HEV offers utility in addition to decent (but not high) mileage. The Accord offers added performance in addition to decent (but not high) mileage. Those are the two which seem to be neglected by the press.
The Prius has a 0-60 closer to 10 seconds, which is alright. I think there are plenty of cars that get around that.
My old Tercel theoretically did it in 11.7 seconds... that was noticeably slow. My current Sentra is closer to 10, probably a little over. Small numerical difference but I don't feel slow in the Sentra. When I get on a freeway in the Sentra I've never felt like I had to calculate my point of entry between cars, like I did in the Tercel. I'd hate to have an even slower car than that. 13 seconds is SLOW.
As for it being an SUV... Berkeley's full of small SUVs. CRVs, Rav4s, and Foresters are very popular and they make sense; they're good at carrying bikes, they're not too long to parallel park, and they're more commonly available with AWD. There are lots of good "soft roads" here. Lots of hills too, which a 13-seconds-to-60 car might not even be able to climb.
Why wasn't The Ford Escape included in your Hybrid/Diesel Roundup?
We certainly thought about putting it in, and we have one in the long-term fleet so it would have been easy to do. But we wanted to focus on the three totally new vehicles that were all SUVs and either hybrid or diesel powered. The RX 400h is just now hitting showrooms, the Highlander Hybrid won't be on sale until next month, and the Liberty diesel is a recent entry. Also, the Escape would have had many of the same characteristics as the Highlander and RX since they all use Toyota's technology, and we figured two Toyota hybrids in one test was enough.
FYI, I really like the Escape Hybrid. I've always like the Escape/Tribute twins -- just big enough for real utility, but not so big they're a pain to drive, plus great road manners in terms of handling. The hybrid version doesn't feel slow to me, but when we tested one last November it was about a second slower in 0-60 than a V6 Escape, so that would be about 10 seconds. Here's the link: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=103464
However, that test was an all-wheel drive version, and our long-term car is front-wheel drive (I was going for max mileage and acceleration when I ordered it, so I specified two-wheel drive).
Regardless, I could see myself and buying a driving a Ford Escape...except for that annoying three grand price premium that will never be recouped by improved fuel mileage...
I've definitely decided I like the Corvette convertible I'm driving this week, despite some troubling traits: 1. I still hate the "must be in reverse to shut off car and get out without it honking at you" security system. Please, GM, quit trying so hard to protect me!! 2. The shifter is just plain bad. Not balky, not notchy, not unrefined (it's all of those things, too) but BAD. This is 2005 people, no car should shift like this, especially if it costs over $50 grand and dubs itself a "sports car." GM could get away with this in the Firebird and Camaro (though it certainly contributed to their demise three years ago). Today it's simply unacceptable. 3. The body flexes enough to make the dash squeak quite loudly when driving aggressively. It's really too bad, because there are no other signs of body flex. No extreme cowl shake or rattling door frames or wonky handling characteristics. If the damn dash wasn't so vocal about the chassis flex I'd never know it was happening. But it is, so I do. Bummer. 4. Related to number 3, the interior is still sub par. Lots of cars use "metallic-looking plastic" these days, but the Corvette's "metallic-looking plastic" on the center stack, center console and around the gauge cluster is more plasticky than the "metallic-looking plastic" in, say, the Audi A3 or Porsche Cayenne. I have to actually tap on those cars' "metallic-looking plastic" to know for sure, but in the 'Vette it's obvious at first glance.
Now, the things I like: 1. Excellent V8 power and rumble. Car splits the difference between the Mustang and Viper, meaning more power and low-frequency rumble than the Mustang, but not as much of either as the Viper. Considering the price of all three, this makes perfect sense. I should note that I think I like the tonal quality of the Mustang better than the Vette, but in terms of volume and pure "boom" the Vette is better. 2. Suspension Setting. Lots of people yell about the Z51 being "too harsh" but these are the same people how yell about the 350Z in Track mode and the Mini Cooper with 16-inch wheels (I actually think the Cooper with 17-inch wheels IS too harsh). Anyway, these people shouldn't be buying sports cars if they can't deal with a firm ride. Me? I think the 350Z, Cooper with 16-inch wheels, and the Corvette with Z51 are all perfect. Great cornering control and a fully livable ride quality. 3. Exterior Styling. I can't believe this, but the new Vette's styling has actually grown on me. When it first came out I was willing to say it was better than the C5, but that's where my compliments ended. I think the red color and convertible body style on this test model are contributing to my change of heart, but as I watched the photographer take static beauty shots tonight I found myself thinking, "that car looks sleek and purposeful without coming off like it's 'trying too hard.'" Which is a rare quality these days. The butt is still too big for me, but I can handle that when considering the car's overall look/proportions. 4. Comfortable with What It Is. There's one thing about a Corvette, and that's the sense that the car knows what it wants to be. Bad shifter, cheap interior plastics and silly door locking system aside, the nature of the Corvette remains -- a no BS sports car that offers massive bang for the buck. For so long these cars suffered from the "Guido with gold chains" image, and I never thought I could seriously consider owning one because of it. Driving home from the photo shoot tonight, with the excellent sound system cranked and the cruise set at 85, I was reminded that the Corvette still offers a surprising range of performance and luxury at an unbeatable price. This market is getting more competitive every year, and the relatively modest upgrades from C5 to C6 are going to catch up to the Corvette before the next redesign hits (the shifter is the clearest example where this has already happened), but right now, today, it's still an amazingly fun vehicle to operate, especially with the top down, the radio blasting and the stability control set to "Competitive Mode."
"1. I still hate the "must be in reverse to shut off car and get out without it honking at you" security system. Please, GM, quit trying so hard to protect me!! "
I must be missing something - what is the logic behind this?
Also, the Escape would have had many of the same characteristics as the Highlander and RX since they all use Toyota's technology, and we figured two Toyota hybrids in one test was enough.
Karl - I thought Ford just paid Toyota a license fee to avoid a patent lawsuit but they developed the hybrid tech on their own (meaning similiar but not the same). Is this not the case?
You are exactly correct. Ford developed the technology but they used much of Toyota's previous work in the process.
While the systems aren't identical, they feel the same from behind the wheel, so driving impressions between the Highlander Hybrid and Escape Hybrid would have been nearly identical.
I just finished my road test on the new Audi A3 (it should post in a few days) so my overall feelings about the car are fresh in my mind.
First, I LOVE the engine. Audi was on the cutting edge of all-wheel drive technology when they developed the quattro system 25 years ago, and driving the new A3 with the 2.0 FSI engine and DSG tranny confirms they still are pushing the technology envelope.
This is the first non-diesel, production engine to use direct fuel injection, and the results are amazing. Between the tumble effects and cooling nature of the incoming air/fuel charge Audi can run this engine at 10.5 to 1 compression -- EVEN THOUGH IT'S A TURBO!! As you may or may not know, high compression equals torque, which is the opposite of what most small, turbocharged engines offer (especially at low RPMs).
The result of all this techno wizardry is 207 lb-ft of torque from 1,800 to 5,000 rpm, which is anything but turbo-like. The car feels astonishingly quick for a 2.0-liter engine, and with a 7.0 second zero-to-60 time it's more than just a feeling.
Now, you combine this engine with Audi's DSG transmission and you've got one stellar drivetrain, especially for a starting price of $26,000. I know the WRX wagon costs less and has more horsepower, but that's simple-minded analysis. The delivery of the power, the quality of the shifts, and the ambience inside the cabin blow the WRX away. And I'm a major WRX fan, so I don't make that statement lightly.
Oh yeah, it also handles well with excellent chassis dynamics and steering feel/feedback.
The rear seat can be tight if you've got three or more large people to carry, and the price gets high quickly when adding options, but otherwise this car is great. Audi intends to sell 10,000 a year. I think they'll do it easily -- though you really have to drive it to appreciate it, so the toughest hurdle will be getting people to simply give the car a chance and not write it off as "a down market Audi hatchback."
You know us Americans -- we tend to let our stereotypes make the buying decisions for us...
speaking of camaro shifters, i really miss my Y2K Z28 with factory hurst/6-speed. i thought it was a joy to shift - one of my favorite things about the car. but i haven't driven any euro or japanese performance cars with manual trans in recent decades, if ever. i drove a 1986 BMW 5-speed as recently as 1989 though! i was impressed even though it didn't have the torque i "required". ) i've read other reviews of the new vette which mentoin the shifter and some oddity with some aspect of the transmission being separated into two far-away halves, one at the front of the car and one at the back. i don't understand the details of that but maybe those details are related to what you noticed, Karl. cruise set at 85 mph, eh? (that's how fast i drove today too...)
The really crazy part is that at 85 mph the Corvette's engine is turning aroud 2,000 rpm, which essentially means you can't legally use the Corvette's sixth gear without lugging the engine. :P
Actually, because the engine makes so much torque you can, but it's still a pretty amazing figure. The car simply wants to ruuuun!
I think Isuzu had a direct inject in their 3.5's in 03 or so in the Axiom. But you may mean direct inject in a model that will sell more than 120 of in the U.S.
I agree - the price seems a little steep....typical Euro car, the base price seems OK, but everything you want is optional, pretty soon you've added $7K in options and now you're in a whole new price class.
I missed the Lutz thing (thanks for the info!) and wonder if there was anything in his discussion outside of new models.
The Lutz blog does a fine job describing new models and improving quality in new models, but....
Nowhere is there any discussion of how GM will improve the __rest__ of the car ownership experience. I.E., better training for service techs? More clinics for customers to provide feedback on their cars and experiences? Vehicle longevity? Warranty?
In terms of service and sales experience (saturn and scion sales excepted), there seems very little difference between vendors. Which is sad, as most are not all that good or pleasant to deal with
GM could address this, but they don't seem interested in changing that status quo..
I sat in one a few weeks back, but still have not driven one.
I really kind of like the looks of the A3. The upgraded wheels look sweet. My only real complaint is that a leather steering wheel is not standard. And of course that the price climbs quickly.
I am an owner of 3 Saturns (an L300 for me, a VUE for the wife, and my son has an older L200), and I have to say that I am both worried and pleased about the brand.
I had the L300 in for service yesterday (a power steering line was leaking and needed to be replaced) and I was called 3 different times by the service advisor, giving me a status of the repair. Every time I work with my dealer, I am reminded why I went with Saturn - their attention to detail when it comes to taking care of the customer is beyond comparison.
My fear is that as Saturn is starting to become just another brand within GM, will their legendary customer service slide back towards the "old and bad" GM, or will the other GM divisions start to migrate over to Saturn's "People First" attitude?
I guess the jury will be out on that issue for a few years - for now, I'm just happy that I happen to be a customer of a division of GM that seems happy to have me as a customer.
Now, if only they would keep the polymer panels......
I think the value in the A3 is in being wise with options--this is true of any car, particularly the Euros. It seems the "cheaper" cars suffer the most from this. I just forgo certain luxuries.
The Mazda 3 is a great car, but it's distinctly not in the A3's league.
I've now driven the A3 base with 6 MY and Audi premium package with DSG. Karl's right on target about the engine and tranny...it's insanely smooth. I'm totally blown away by the integration of the DSG with the 2.0T.
I've yet to drive a sport model A3 and I'm coming from a 330i performance package and Mazda Protege ES, so I found the handling to be the only major downfall of the car. Its handling is not nearly as quick, composed or cutting as the Mazda3. Yes, the car's far more refined and feels like an Audi, but the handling may be the one reason I don't opt for the A3 and instead head for the upcoming, lighter, more nimble GTI.
BTW, I'm not sure what features you guys are talking about that push the price so high. The car has very feew options. You can either get the premium package or the sport package. From there they have the skyview roof, xenon headlights and navi. Navi's a joke in any car, so really when I optioned one with metallic paint it came out to 31k - DSG, sport package, xenon, moonroof, sirius radio. What more is needed?
Flip side, a loaded GTI will probably cost 26k and offer far superior performance.
I priced one out on the website... I got over $31K with manual transmission and FWD... with less options than we have on our 3-series.. Add DSG and Quattro, and you are looking at $35K..
Kurt, you bring up an excellent point. GM's "customer service" isn't, plain and simple.
First and foremost, virtually every GM dealer I've dealt with in the past 4 years on warranty service has waved the "no trouble found/could not duplicate" flag - for things like a messed up HVAC controller on my wife's '01 GTP (I kept taking the car out, coming back with the windows fogged, and being told that was normal), to its A/C frequently cutting out (AC compressor clutch died 1k out of warranty, on the day I bought my first GTO - they goodwilled it, since I had been reporting it each time I took it in for service for the past year), to my wife's Envoy "missing" sitting at idle (got the old NTF/CND/"they all do that" until it got so bad the Check Engine light came on - cracked spark plug, had to have the car towed into the dealership). The customer service experience on the buyback/exchange of my GTO was ridiculous (dealer got the replacement car 3 days after the exchange was offered - told me it would take a month - was 54 days later before GM finally spat out the paperwork, only to lose it a month later and I had to come into the dealership and re-sign everything. And the buyback rep I dealt with was completely incompetent and arrogant - hey, it wasn't MY fault that they built a defective car, and that their dealer screwed up the car trying to repair it, causing other problems). 20 days in the shop in the first month of ownership does not make a good experience... and the attitude I got from everyone I dealt with at GM was that they were doing me a favor to exchange the car (35 days in the shop after 2 1/2 months of ownership - old car was STILL sitting on the dealer lot the last time I was there, waiting for GM to pick it up).
I am still unsure if I'll ever buy another GM car, based on these experiences...
Granted. the A3 is not budget. But you are pricing it with new hot 2.0, quattro and DSG--many cars do not compare well. BMW is the master of the the pricey add-ons. Want cruise control? Power seat? Personally, I don't care, but I'm still waiting for them to charge extra for the steering wheel.
Actually, in one of the GM threads elsewhere, someone posted that the sole reason that Saturn still exists is because of their CSI rating. The Saturn dealer agreement with GM is very specific on what they must do, and the penalties for not doing that. As GM refocuses its dealerships and groups Buick, Pontiac, and GMC, they are making those dealers sign similar agreements. One would hope this means that the service experience will improve everywhere else. As I posted above, it needs to...
I agree! One thing about the Euro cars that is always an extra cost is metallic paint - everybody else in the world just factors that into the price of the car, doesn't matter if you get silver or black or white....but BMW, Mercedes, etc...charge you extra...
I agree! One thing about the Euro cars that is always an extra cost is metallic paint - everybody else in the world just factors that into the price of the car, doesn't matter if you get silver or black or white....but BMW, Mercedes, etc...charge you extra...
And their paint looks way better than every one elses. Audi, BMW and MB offer color options that no other manufacturers come close to. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura have the same bland color options as base manufacturers..
If you just want simple red, white, black, then the German makes let you have it for free. If you want a lava grey or arctic white, it's gonna cost you to have a color that's not common.
Granted, BMW et. al. have great paint colors that they charge extra for. Why not just lump it in to the price. They sell a premium product, but I feel like I'm getting nickle and dimed for a paint color. BTW, I rarely see one in tomato red or plain white. And when I do, I think "Dang, they should have sprung the extra 300 bucks."
One thing about that - I think in this era of "mega dealers" it probably depends as much on the dealer itself more than the manufacturer. In my area, the Chevrolet, Honda, Kia, Dodge, Mitsubishi, Cadillac, Acura, Toyota are all owned by the same person. I really doubt he sends out a memo that says, "treat all GM customers like crap, treat the Honda customers great"...
Basically, if you're having service problems with "John Doe Buick", I sorta doubt buying a car from "John Doe Toyota" across the street is going to change anything...
Comments
I bet the GMC model will share cues with the GMC Graphyte shown this year in Detroit...
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/103626/page033.html?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..- leftnav.34.*
But isn't that platform ... forbidden?
-Jason
Although to be honest, I never cared for the Challanger's styling. Chargers yes, but the only Challengers I remember were bloated blobs that I just didn't care for.
I am guessing that this is the mid-cycle enhancement for 2006. Redesigned interior and exterior. I believe production begins this summer.
And for those who didn't see it, the theme of his comment was:
I am not sure exactly what my point is here. So lets say it is this - the media (in general) praises the vehicles that only a small percent of the consumers buy and dismisses the qualities that the majority desires.
I agree with you 100% -- with regards to most publications. I have long believed that too many "enthusiast publications" write to only "enthusiasts" readers which, honestly, make up maybe 10% of the car-buying public.
But there's a double-edged sword here. If you're an enthusiast you seek out information on cars, and generally you don't want to read about the four-cylinder, automatic version. If you're a four-cylinder, automatic buyer, you probably don't read enthusiast publications, you just buy new car when you need one (every 4-6 years) and call it day. Not much sense in creating an automotive publication for these guys, at least not one with daily or weekly updates because these readers will only stop by twice a decade.
There is a small fringe of readers who break this rule. These are guys who are, by all measurements, enthusiasts, but they still want to see a comparison test on four-cylinder family sedans. And there are those people who aren't really enthusiasts, but they do like to read the "buff books" and/or automotive Web sites on a regular basis. In both cases, these people don't want to hear about the exotic/supercharged/top-speed record holders every day/week/month. Instead, they want to hear about how the volume-selling, $20,000 sedans stack up against each other.
Can one publication please all of these readers? Not a traditional publication. But maybe a modern automotive Web site with multiple facets. Stay tuned...
Previously I have driven two C6 Corvettes. An automatic with Z51 suspsension (orange), and a manual without Z51 (dark blue). Neither was an ideal set-up, and neither car blew me away to say the least. I felt like the steering was too slow and heavy in the automatic car, and body roll was excessive in the manaul car (the one without Z51). Neither car felt particularly fast, either.
Today I instrument tested a Z51, manual shift convertible (red no less). This was also my first experience with a convertible C6.
This car instantly won me over. It feels quicker than the last manual I drove (even though it is a heavier convertible), and it feels more buttoned down than the automatic that also had Z51 (again, even though it is a convertible with theoretically more body flex).
The car is by no means perfect. The 2-3 upshift is waaaaay too difficult to execute smoothly because of the notchy shifter, and there was massive interior squeak from around the dash in the slalom (presumably from the body flexing, which was causing the dash to flex against the door panels). It took several acceleration runs before I could confidently carry off the 2-3 upshift with any real confidence and speed, and I'm certain it was still costing me at least a few tenths in quarter-mile time.
But it still pulled impressive acceleration and slalom numbers, not to mention braking.
Here are today's numbers (acceleration times corrected for conditions):
0-60: 5.40
¼: 13.59@107.7
Braking, 60-0: 117 feet
Slalom: 67.2mph
These numbers are roughly equivelant to the Corvette coupe in our recent Corvette vs. 911 comparison test, though slalom speed is higher in this car.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=104144
That's pretty amazing when you consider that this was a convertible. I'd like to put this car up against a 911 Cabrio. I'm not necessarily convinced it would win, but it should be much closer than that comparo was, and the overall driving characteristics would make me consider this over a 911 Cabrio -- with price factored in (after that last comparison test I was basically saying, "I don't care how much more the 911 costs, I'll take it over the 'Vette and each macaroni and cheese for three years if I have to!").
We have this car for the next 12 days, and I'm writing the follow up road test on it. I'll let you know how it performs over an extended period.
just want to say thanks for the opportunity to have some input into your meeting with mr lutz. although i missed it, i just hope everyone can appreciate that gift from you.
i'm a ford guy ever since my dad came home with a '56 fairlane that had an engine with thunderbird valve covers on it.
Just kidding. But I'm glad to hear that GM is finally back on track to making themselves profitable.
When are the embargo dates? And did Mr. Lutz mention anything about Saab? I would absolutely love to see an all new compact (not midsize) FWD luxury hatchback engineered from the ground up by Saab, priced between $24,500 and $29,500, with a sedan variant and possibly a convertible.
When are the 9-2X and 9-7X going to be axed anyways?
Just IMO, my ideal magazine would be somewhere in-between the "cars as appliance" Consumer Reports approach and the "here's 20 pages about the latest $200K Ferrari" approach of the "buff books"
My pleasure. I should have mentioned earlier that during our lunch I asked Mr. Lutz' about his blog, and he talked about how much he enjoyed having a direct voice to the consumers, without any media outlets "spinning" his words. I told him I was doing a daily discussion/blog and that several people had mentioned Lutz' blog in my discussion. He seemed pleased. I also attributed the "small, rear-wheel drive platform" question as coming directly from the people in my discussion, and Lutz obviously understood and appreciated the source.
I'll certainly let everyone know about any upcoming meetings with auto execs so we can do it again!
It's tough to find the perfect balance that works for everyone. We've done several "enthusiast" tests recently, like the upcoming "STi vs GTO" and the previous "Corvette vs 911" and "Sport Coupe" tests:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=104144
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=104196
But if you look at the four most recent comparison tests, you have:
Hybrid/Disel SUV Round-up
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=105527
Full-Size Sedan Comparison
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=105147
Japanese Sport Sedan Comparison
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=104808
Midsize Truck Comparison (the same one C & D just did)
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=104774
Admittedly, the Japanese Sport Sedan test has cars that are kind of expensive, and performance oriented, but the average price of the test vehicles in the other tests is below $35,000, and you can't remotely call the Hybrid/Diesel SUV or Midsize Truck comparisons "sporty." Even the Full-Size Sedan test is pretty basic and "mainstream" oriented to help buyers looking for a "real" car.
But the original comment regarding most publications focusing on mostly performance models (those that appeal to a small percentage of the buying public) holds true. Inside Line will try to spread the love around evenly between the gear heads and the real-world users, but we always appreciate this type of feedback.
Do you when another full size hybrid truck will be introduced? Chevrolet already has the Silverado, and I'm pretty sure that Ford will be next with a hybrid F-150 and Mark LT.
Anyone have sales figures?
That is my guess..
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IMO, fuel economy is low on a SUV buyer's list of priorities, or they wouldn't be looking at an SUV in the first place...They take one look at the Escape Hybrid's MSRP and think "geez, I could get an Explorer (or Expedition?)for that money"
That said, it appears the biggest cross-section of hybrid buyers are those looking for the green image. So the Prius and Civic own the lion's share of sales.
The Escape HEV offers utility in addition to decent (but not high) mileage. The Accord offers added performance in addition to decent (but not high) mileage. Those are the two which seem to be neglected by the press.
My old Tercel theoretically did it in 11.7 seconds... that was noticeably slow. My current Sentra is closer to 10, probably a little over. Small numerical difference but I don't feel slow in the Sentra. When I get on a freeway in the Sentra I've never felt like I had to calculate my point of entry between cars, like I did in the Tercel. I'd hate to have an even slower car than that. 13 seconds is SLOW.
As for it being an SUV... Berkeley's full of small SUVs. CRVs, Rav4s, and Foresters are very popular and they make sense; they're good at carrying bikes, they're not too long to parallel park, and they're more commonly available with AWD. There are lots of good "soft roads" here. Lots of hills too, which a 13-seconds-to-60 car might not even be able to climb.
We certainly thought about putting it in, and we have one in the long-term fleet so it would have been easy to do. But we wanted to focus on the three totally new vehicles that were all SUVs and either hybrid or diesel powered. The RX 400h is just now hitting showrooms, the Highlander Hybrid won't be on sale until next month, and the Liberty diesel is a recent entry. Also, the Escape would have had many of the same characteristics as the Highlander and RX since they all use Toyota's technology, and we figured two Toyota hybrids in one test was enough.
FYI, I really like the Escape Hybrid. I've always like the Escape/Tribute twins -- just big enough for real utility, but not so big they're a pain to drive, plus great road manners in terms of handling. The hybrid version doesn't feel slow to me, but when we tested one last November it was about a second slower in 0-60 than a V6 Escape, so that would be about 10 seconds. Here's the link:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=103464
However, that test was an all-wheel drive version, and our long-term car is front-wheel drive (I was going for max mileage and acceleration when I ordered it, so I specified two-wheel drive).
Regardless, I could see myself and buying a driving a Ford Escape...except for that annoying three grand price premium that will never be recouped by improved fuel mileage...
1. I still hate the "must be in reverse to shut off car and get out without it honking at you" security system. Please, GM, quit trying so hard to protect me!!
2. The shifter is just plain bad. Not balky, not notchy, not unrefined (it's all of those things, too) but BAD. This is 2005 people, no car should shift like this, especially if it costs over $50 grand and dubs itself a "sports car." GM could get away with this in the Firebird and Camaro (though it certainly contributed to their demise three years ago). Today it's simply unacceptable.
3. The body flexes enough to make the dash squeak quite loudly when driving aggressively. It's really too bad, because there are no other signs of body flex. No extreme cowl shake or rattling door frames or wonky handling characteristics. If the damn dash wasn't so vocal about the chassis flex I'd never know it was happening. But it is, so I do. Bummer.
4. Related to number 3, the interior is still sub par. Lots of cars use "metallic-looking plastic" these days, but the Corvette's "metallic-looking plastic" on the center stack, center console and around the gauge cluster is more plasticky than the "metallic-looking plastic" in, say, the Audi A3 or Porsche Cayenne. I have to actually tap on those cars' "metallic-looking plastic" to know for sure, but in the 'Vette it's obvious at first glance.
Now, the things I like:
1. Excellent V8 power and rumble. Car splits the difference between the Mustang and Viper, meaning more power and low-frequency rumble than the Mustang, but not as much of either as the Viper. Considering the price of all three, this makes perfect sense. I should note that I think I like the tonal quality of the Mustang better than the Vette, but in terms of volume and pure "boom" the Vette is better.
2. Suspension Setting. Lots of people yell about the Z51 being "too harsh" but these are the same people how yell about the 350Z in Track mode and the Mini Cooper with 16-inch wheels (I actually think the Cooper with 17-inch wheels IS too harsh). Anyway, these people shouldn't be buying sports cars if they can't deal with a firm ride. Me? I think the 350Z, Cooper with 16-inch wheels, and the Corvette with Z51 are all perfect. Great cornering control and a fully livable ride quality.
3. Exterior Styling. I can't believe this, but the new Vette's styling has actually grown on me. When it first came out I was willing to say it was better than the C5, but that's where my compliments ended. I think the red color and convertible body style on this test model are contributing to my change of heart, but as I watched the photographer take static beauty shots tonight I found myself thinking, "that car looks sleek and purposeful without coming off like it's 'trying too hard.'" Which is a rare quality these days. The butt is still too big for me, but I can handle that when considering the car's overall look/proportions.
4. Comfortable with What It Is. There's one thing about a Corvette, and that's the sense that the car knows what it wants to be. Bad shifter, cheap interior plastics and silly door locking system aside, the nature of the Corvette remains -- a no BS sports car that offers massive bang for the buck. For so long these cars suffered from the "Guido with gold chains" image, and I never thought I could seriously consider owning one because of it. Driving home from the photo shoot tonight, with the excellent sound system cranked and the cruise set at 85, I was reminded that the Corvette still offers a surprising range of performance and luxury at an unbeatable price. This market is getting more competitive every year, and the relatively modest upgrades from C5 to C6 are going to catch up to the Corvette before the next redesign hits (the shifter is the clearest example where this has already happened), but right now, today, it's still an amazingly fun vehicle to operate, especially with the top down, the radio blasting and the stability control set to "Competitive Mode."
I must be missing something - what is the logic behind this?
Lesson #1 in my Driver's Ed class, circa 1974...
regards,
kyfdx
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Karl - I thought Ford just paid Toyota a license fee to avoid a patent lawsuit but they developed the hybrid tech on their own (meaning similiar but not the same). Is this not the case?
While the systems aren't identical, they feel the same from behind the wheel, so driving impressions between the Highlander Hybrid and Escape Hybrid would have been nearly identical.
First, I LOVE the engine. Audi was on the cutting edge of all-wheel drive technology when they developed the quattro system 25 years ago, and driving the new A3 with the 2.0 FSI engine and DSG tranny confirms they still are pushing the technology envelope.
This is the first non-diesel, production engine to use direct fuel injection, and the results are amazing. Between the tumble effects and cooling nature of the incoming air/fuel charge Audi can run this engine at 10.5 to 1 compression -- EVEN THOUGH IT'S A TURBO!! As you may or may not know, high compression equals torque, which is the opposite of what most small, turbocharged engines offer (especially at low RPMs).
The result of all this techno wizardry is 207 lb-ft of torque from 1,800 to 5,000 rpm, which is anything but turbo-like. The car feels astonishingly quick for a 2.0-liter engine, and with a 7.0 second zero-to-60 time it's more than just a feeling.
Now, you combine this engine with Audi's DSG transmission and you've got one stellar drivetrain, especially for a starting price of $26,000. I know the WRX wagon costs less and has more horsepower, but that's simple-minded analysis. The delivery of the power, the quality of the shifts, and the ambience inside the cabin blow the WRX away. And I'm a major WRX fan, so I don't make that statement lightly.
Oh yeah, it also handles well with excellent chassis dynamics and steering feel/feedback.
The rear seat can be tight if you've got three or more large people to carry, and the price gets high quickly when adding options, but otherwise this car is great. Audi intends to sell 10,000 a year. I think they'll do it easily -- though you really have to drive it to appreciate it, so the toughest hurdle will be getting people to simply give the car a chance and not write it off as "a down market Audi hatchback."
You know us Americans -- we tend to let our stereotypes make the buying decisions for us...
i've read other reviews of the new vette which mentoin the shifter and some oddity with some aspect of the transmission being separated into two far-away halves, one at the front of the car and one at the back. i don't understand the details of that but maybe those details are related to what you noticed, Karl.
cruise set at 85 mph, eh?
Actually, because the engine makes so much torque you can, but it's still a pretty amazing figure. The car simply wants to ruuuun!
Doesn't sound too bad? Wait a minute... No Quattro for $33K? Okay, add another $2K...
$35K for an A3 Quattro.... it is going to be a tough sell...
Without the Quattro? Good luck going up against a TSX for $27,500...
Nice cars, but crazy pricing... I'll take a loaded Mazda3 for $21K, before dropping $27K on a stripped A3...
regards,
kyfdx
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The Lutz blog does a fine job describing new models and improving quality in new models, but....
Nowhere is there any discussion of how GM will improve the __rest__ of the car ownership experience. I.E., better training for service techs? More clinics for customers to provide feedback on their cars and experiences? Vehicle longevity? Warranty?
In terms of service and sales experience (saturn and scion sales excepted), there seems very little difference between vendors. Which is sad, as most are not all that good or pleasant to deal with
GM could address this, but they don't seem interested in changing that status quo..
I really kind of like the looks of the A3. The upgraded wheels look sweet. My only real complaint is that a leather steering wheel is not standard. And of course that the price climbs quickly.
Did you drive a manual or the DSG or both?
I had the L300 in for service yesterday (a power steering line was leaking and needed to be replaced) and I was called 3 different times by the service advisor, giving me a status of the repair. Every time I work with my dealer, I am reminded why I went with Saturn - their attention to detail when it comes to taking care of the customer is beyond comparison.
My fear is that as Saturn is starting to become just another brand within GM, will their legendary customer service slide back towards the "old and bad" GM, or will the other GM divisions start to migrate over to Saturn's "People First" attitude?
I guess the jury will be out on that issue for a few years - for now, I'm just happy that I happen to be a customer of a division of GM that seems happy to have me as a customer.
Now, if only they would keep the polymer panels......
The Mazda 3 is a great car, but it's distinctly not in the A3's league.
I've yet to drive a sport model A3 and I'm coming from a 330i performance package and Mazda Protege ES, so I found the handling to be the only major downfall of the car. Its handling is not nearly as quick, composed or cutting as the Mazda3. Yes, the car's far more refined and feels like an Audi, but the handling may be the one reason I don't opt for the A3 and instead head for the upcoming, lighter, more nimble GTI.
BTW, I'm not sure what features you guys are talking about that push the price so high. The car has very feew options. You can either get the premium package or the sport package. From there they have the skyview roof, xenon headlights and navi. Navi's a joke in any car, so really when I optioned one with metallic paint it came out to 31k - DSG, sport package, xenon, moonroof, sirius radio. What more is needed?
Flip side, a loaded GTI will probably cost 26k and offer far superior performance.
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curious...
BTW, euro delivery on the 3 would certainly make it a cheaper car.
First and foremost, virtually every GM dealer I've dealt with in the past 4 years on warranty service has waved the "no trouble found/could not duplicate" flag - for things like a messed up HVAC controller on my wife's '01 GTP (I kept taking the car out, coming back with the windows fogged, and being told that was normal), to its A/C frequently cutting out (AC compressor clutch died 1k out of warranty, on the day I bought my first GTO - they goodwilled it, since I had been reporting it each time I took it in for service for the past year), to my wife's Envoy "missing" sitting at idle (got the old NTF/CND/"they all do that" until it got so bad the Check Engine light came on - cracked spark plug, had to have the car towed into the dealership). The customer service experience on the buyback/exchange of my GTO was ridiculous (dealer got the replacement car 3 days after the exchange was offered - told me it would take a month - was 54 days later before GM finally spat out the paperwork, only to lose it a month later and I had to come into the dealership and re-sign everything. And the buyback rep I dealt with was completely incompetent and arrogant - hey, it wasn't MY fault that they built a defective car, and that their dealer screwed up the car trying to repair it, causing other problems). 20 days in the shop in the first month of ownership does not make a good experience... and the attitude I got from everyone I dealt with at GM was that they were doing me a favor to exchange the car (35 days in the shop after 2 1/2 months of ownership - old car was STILL sitting on the dealer lot the last time I was there, waiting for GM to pick it up).
I am still unsure if I'll ever buy another GM car, based on these experiences...
--Robert
--Robert
And their paint looks way better than every one elses. Audi, BMW and MB offer color options that no other manufacturers come close to. Lexus, Infiniti and Acura have the same bland color options as base manufacturers..
If you just want simple red, white, black, then the German makes let you have it for free. If you want a lava grey or arctic white, it's gonna cost you to have a color that's not common.
Basically, if you're having service problems with "John Doe Buick", I sorta doubt buying a car from "John Doe Toyota" across the street is going to change anything...