Thanks for your opinion. I'm struggling to find a manual GT to drive in so cal. Every seedy dealer tells me, "There are none in Southern California, but I can put you in a nice automatic. It's the same thing." Grrrrrrrrr.
Yes they're selling quite well and I wouldn't look for anyone to bend over backwards to get you in one. Ford is scrambling to produce enough of these. The GT's are selling in 11 days, V6's in 22 days. Phenominal numbers for Ford. The old mustangs sat on the lot over 100 days. BTW, the average discount on a Mustang GT last month was $28. So you'll be paying sticker....
Oh, i'm not buying until May of 06. I love to look and love to plan. If the Mustang tickles my fancy...
Right now I'm most eager to drive an e90 330i, Solstice and a Mazdaspeed3. as you can see from that selection, I'm all over the place on cost and style. Just want to love what I drive. A mustang at 25k is a steal (and opens the door to a nice convertible for weekend play).
Diesels still get higher particulate and NOx emissions though. It's still a debate in environmental science circles over how much worse NOx is than CO2; its effect is a lot stronger than CO2, which is balanced by its lower concentration, but it also lacks the clout of CO2 and that affects political regulations on emissions.
My inorganic chemistry is quite rusty, but I would imagine various nitrogen oxides would have to be produced by a diesel engine in tiny quantities compared to CO2, for it to have a similar env. impact to a gasoline engine. NOx are literally poisonous and corrosive, producing nitric and nitrous acids when combined with water. CO2 is much less likely to kill protein-based lifeforms as long as enough oxygen is available... It can be considered almost an inert gas compared to NOx.
I like driving it because it rides well, has comfortable seats, is really quiet and has plenty of room. A Jetta TDI would provide the first two, but not the last ones (though the Jetta would be more fun to drive).
I certainly like the "full" hybrids from Toyota more than the "light" hybrids from Honda, but in both cases they need to fix two items: 1. Lower purchase price 2. Higher REAL-WORLD mileage
Until then, hybrids will remain "feel good" cars that don't make sense in terms of bottom line numbers (we calculated that it will take four years and over 60,000 miles to "make up" the increased cost of a Hybrid Escape over a non-hybrid version).
No, I think if you have a car that does zero-to-60 in under six seconds, and it costs less than $25,000 (new Mustang) those are both clearly bottom line numbers.
The problem with hybrids is they don't have any quantifiable advantage over comparable vehicles.
Do they cost less? No Are they faster? No Do they get better gas mileage? The answer is either "barely" or "no" depending on what you're comparing them to. And certainly the advantage isn't enough to compensate for their higher costs unless you own them for several years and drive them at least 60,000 miles, at which point they just break even with conventional gas and/or diesel engines. And how many people keep a car for at least five years or 60,000 miles these days?
So again, they are cool in terms of technological advancements, but otherwise they don't have a measurable advantage over other vehicles (whereas the new Mustang does).
Don't get me wrong, I still like hybrid technology. But it's definitely in the early stages, and like many breaking technologies, that's not always the best time to buy in.
I'm surprised you can tolerate driving the Prius so well. It felt like a 1975 Buick to me, only a small 1975 Buick. But aside from feeling like I was going to tip over into the opposing lane, and retracting my claws so I could drive like an 80 year old, it was okay. It'd be fine for going shopping.
I tend to agree with you in terms of the Prius - you'd probably be better off just buying a Corolla or an Echo or a Scion xA (whatever) if you're just looking for the ultimate in cost savings.
However, have you driven a "performance" hybrid yet, like the Lexus RX400h? Those seem to do a better job of delivering the best of both worlds, albeit at a big up-front price increase.
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name. 2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h) Review your vehicle
Well, it all boils down to what the driver values. You, along with many of us, value acceleration. So a car that gets to 60 mph .5 seconds faster than the next car has some value. However, I can tell you without hesitation that my wife places zero value on 0-60 times. (It's something of a problem when I'm trying to convince her that a roadster would be a nice third car.) She would rather invest in new technology and feel good about driving a hybrid than have a car that car burn rubber from a stop light.
You yourself just bought a rare, classic bike which would likely be handed it's tail pipe by just about any modern motorcycle on the showroom floor. Did you buy it because it was faster, handled better, or got better gas mileage? Probably not. You just admitted that you felt guilty riding it home. No, you likely made that purchase to invest in what you consider automotive art. Or because that particular bike had impressive qualities for it's day and age and therefore has special significance to you.
For my wife, and I agree with her on this, a hybrid is a similar purchase. The allure is not based on performance. It's not based on dollars and cents. It's based on an all-together different kind of green. Buying a Prius is an investment in automotive technology (rather than automotive art). It's a more altruistic purchase than a thumping-my-chest-Mustang. It's a chance to vote when the auto manufacturers ask, "why make green cars?" If people don't buy these early hybrids, the manufacturers have little incentive to design better ones.
Frankly, I don't see many enthusiasts buying GTOs just so GM will make another one. Performance enthusiasts have got nothing on hybrid enthusiasts when it comes to passion.
Frankly, I don't see many enthusiasts buying GTOs just so GM will make another one. Performance enthusiasts have got nothing on hybrid enthusiasts when it comes to passion.
We have more options. GTO may be fast but it's in a market loaded with fast cars. I'm a performance enthusiast but short of a Porsche (and possibly a Mustang GT - still must drive it) there isn't a coupe out there that tempts me. The GTO could sticker for 15k and I still wouldn't want it. Same with the Vette and Viper.
Gimme a lightning quick 4 door sedan with great handling and I'm a happy monkey. A tight, small, nimble convertible and I'm interested. A big, heavy two door coupe...no thanks.
"Our interest in hybrids is like that of most people. We want better fuel economy, we want to be kinder to the environment, and particularly in the case of the Honda Accord, I want a car with some oomph (my wife is indifferent to the "oomph" issue). You've probably noticed I left out the economic argument for a hybrid."
That's because by my estimates, which include the $2,000 federal tax adjustment to gross income, our family would need to double or triple our driving habits, or see fuel prices approach $3 a gallon, before a hybrid makes economic sense for us over the estimated number of miles we would own the car.
Well gas is $3.00 a gallon by me. I've seen it over $3.00 already. I got premium the other day for $2.73 and felt happy about the bargain at Costco. Most stations near me are charging $2.80-2.90 for premium.
I don't think the Prius is a voluntarily renunciation of 0-60 times, I think it is more like a voluntary renunciation of the joy of driving entirely. Which actually makes more sense as a statement of a nobler purpose---the rejection of pleasure. I can and have rejected 0-60 times often in my purchases, but I find it hard to give up the pleasure of driving, speaking just for myself of course.
it is no co-incidence, that the most neglected key at the end of the day at Road & Track's key board is the Prius.
...that if you are an enthusiast who enjoys driving, the Prius (and other Hybrids) don't offer what you are looking for.
At some point, a manufacturer is going to introduce a "sporty" hybrid. Honda is getting sort of close with the Accord, but it's only available as a 4 door.
It will be interesting to see who (if anybody) introduces a 2-door perforrnace coupe/convertible with a high-HP hybrid powertrain.Would it have a manual transmission? A 6-speed Accord Coupe with the hybrid V6 might be an interesting offering .. but would it appeal to the public?
It seems contradictory to put the words "hybrid" and "sporty" into the same sentence ---- most people equate "hybrid" with "frugal". Paying a premium of several thousand dollars simply to have the hybrid technology and add a few MPG to their daily driving habits when the technology is applied to a sporty car seems odd to me.
Is driving a hybrid really any different than a Camry or the quintessential Buick? If you're accustomed to driving a automotive sofa, why not get a hybrid, which has something unique going for it?
I mean, people will pay an extra $4,000 to buy an SUV rather than be saddled with the mommy-mobile stigma of a minivan or station wagon. Other than a little extra machismo, they get nothing in return except lower gas mileage, worse handling, and a less roomy interior. But we're questioning the $3,000 price increase for a hybrid because it will merely break even?
I'm with Karl on one point. The electronic half of Toyota's THS systems are more impressive than Honda's IMA. The benefits to that design are greater. However, I think you pay a higher price to reap those rewards when it comes to driving dynamics. The Civic and Accord hybrids are pretty much ordinary cars. While they each have some of the dynamic drawbacks of a hybrid, those drawbacks are not nearly as significant.
With that in mind, why is the Prius the one in such high demand? If driving dynamics are so important, why does the Prius own 64% of the market?
it is no co-incidence, that the most neglected key at the end of the day at Road & Track's key board is the Prius. - Shifty
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying hybrids are for everybody anymore than I would say an S2000 should be parked in every driveway. But there are different types of enthusiast out there. The Mustangs and GTOs give acceleration hounds something to howl about. The WRX and Integra Type R are soul food for import fans. The Boxter and Z4 are exemplary transportation for wealthy enthusiasts. There's a performance niche for every kind of enthusiast. Now we have one for the Earth friendly crowd.
Toyota is already doing it. The Lexus hybrids they have planned are more or less a way of offering V8 power using hybrid assist. With the RX SUV, it's more of a luxury upgrade than a performance upgrade, but the idea is the same.
Acura has announced that they plan to have performance hybrids in the near future. Of course, they are honda quiet about when and what will happen.
But there has been some backlash over the notion. When Honda introduced the Accord hybrid, several hypermilers here at Edmunds cried, "Abomination!" They wanted to know why Honda used a V6 instead of a less powerful, more frugal I4 engine.
As for the idea of a Prius filling a "performance niche", I have to respectfully disagree. I think the Prius is for people who basically don't like cars at all, or, at best, are indifferent to them. This used to be the Volvo niche before Volvo got faster and nicer looking.
So the niche is really "anti-car", and not any more earth-friendly than an equivalently energy-efficient gasoline car. That's PR flak. I ride a bike one day to work and drive a gas guzzling Porsche the next. So I'm not "earth friendly" but the Prius owner is? Gimme a break.
Karl, have you run across any new car lately that you have instantly unattractive to you? I realize this is a very subjective viewpoint but I'm curious if anything jumped out at you as a mis-step, design wise.
I don't think hybrids are necessarily as anti-car as we're making them out to be. The Prius certainly is, but that's more because it's a Toyota than because it's a hybrid. A lot of us are making the mistake of using Toyota's interpretation of hybrids as the global definition of what hybrids are.
Granted, anyone who likes accelerating and braking won't get good mileage in a hybrid... but getting a hybrid would only be as silly as if that person looked for a non-hybrid fuel efficient car. The fact that it's a hybrid isn't the important there. But there's no reason that a hybrid has to have incommunicative steering, or an automatic transmission.
If the next Civic gets its fun-to-drive feeling back, and they make a hybrid version, we might see a funner alternative to the Prius.
OK everyone, guess what I hold in my hand here at the end of the workday?
Yup, keys to a 2005 Pontiac GTO (bright yellow, no less).
I'm driving it home in about 10 minutes and I'll let you know what I think tomorrow (or maybe when I get home tonight if I have the energy to post -- been a long day).
Here's hoping the "upgrades" for 2005 make me like it more than I did the 2004...
So here is a question for you - besides getting to drive cars all the time, what does your job involve? Curious as to what you do on a daily basis? It seems that you have a lot of toys and you live in CA, so you must do more than the occasional review that we see on Edmunds. Just thought it might be interesting to get a glimpse at the typical "Karl" work day.
Once upon a time my job was all about the cars. I attended press events, wrote road tests, participated in comparison tests, and even photographed my own test cars (despite having a dedicated photographer on staff -- I like doing my own photography...when I have the time).
I don't want to sound too, "those were the days" or anything, because my current duties have their own sets of challenges and rewards, but my job was certainly "more about the cars" back when I was a road test editor.
Now I get to do a lot of management stuff, which means meetings, story planning, meetings, dealing with personnel issues, meetings, and long-term planning for overall team goals regarding content direction and site design. And sometimes, in between all of that, I attend another meeting...
Today was a good example. I drove in to work but had to leave almost immediately to attend a market study/future product planning meeting held by an automaker in Irvine (50 miles away in Orange County). I was there with a staffer from Automotive News and Popular Mechanics, and (suitably fitting considering the recent discussion strings) we were asked about the current and future potential of hybrid drivetrains in the market.
The "mysterious" part of the meeting was that we didn't know at the time, and aren't supposed to ever know, who was hosting the meeting. There was a large microphone in the conference room and a camera in the corner, and we were told that company reps from the "mystery" automaker were listening to, and watching, the entire discussion (it was hosted by a research company that was hired by the automaker to ask us specific questions and get our feedback).
BTW, I was glad to have the recent feedback from everyone in this discussion to draw on for my opinions of hybrid potential. Thanks guys!!
Between the Irvine meeting and commute time that ate up about four and a half hours of my day. Then I got back to work and dug through email and answered phone messages (another hour). One return call I made was to confirm logistics for an upcoming Audi A3 event I'm attending next week. I'll be getting a driveaway for a full test, so that story should be up in about three weeks.
Then I read a few stories on what we call the "staging server." This is where stories are posted that are essentially ready to go "live" on the site, but we use this point in the process to do a final read and confirm things like layout and make sure the right caption is appearing under the right photo, etc. This took about a half hour.
Then I attended a meeting regarding an upcoming story that involves sending a person to Europe for some test drives. They will be driving two premium sedans, each in their respective country of origin, and then writing a "how each car reflects its home country in terms of design, style and driving dynamics." Should be a cool story, and we had to plan driving routes and video crew logistics. That took a half hour (but this is one meeting in a series of meetings regarding this story, so don't get the idea that a story this big can be handled in one 30 minute meeting...).
Then I spent about 30 minutes going through today's discussion responses and adding two of my own, before leaving the office in the 2005 GTO test car. On the drive home I took a different route that included a stretch on Mulholland Drive to fully evaluate the GTO. It added a few minutes to my commute, but was obviously worth it! Now I'm home and about to give everyone a basic rundown of my thoughts on this car.
Some days are more meetings, some days are more car oriented. Next week we have a day at our test facility where we will be testing SEVEN cars for acceleration, braking and handling, so that will be a day spent largely out of the office. I'm still the primary test driver for this kind of testing, but I'm training another staffer to do this because it's taking too much of my time these days. Two of those test cars are part of a comparison test (one is the GTO I drove tonight, guess what the other one is...) and the others are just part of our typical test car work load, where we usually have between two and four cars a week to write road tests on.
This gives a pretty good idea of how I (hopefully) earn my keep at Edmunds.
OK guys, here is my report after a 50-mile drive in the 2005 GTO.
First, as an overall comment, I liked this car better than the 2004. I don't know if the 2005 model is substantially better than the 2004, or if it was just better than I remember the 2004. Regardless, I enjoyed the car more than I expected.
First, when I walked out of the elevator into our parking garage someone had parked the GTO so that it was backed in and facing the elevator (strange because usually our test cars are parked "head in"). This means that when the doors opened I saw a bright yellow coupe with cool hood slits and an aggressive grille. My first thought was, "I can't believe those hood slits really make the car look that much better, but right here, right now, it does look cool." Sure, the yellow color isn't for everyone (myself included) and some people will think the hood scoops look "silly" or overdone, but to my eyes part of the idea behind a car like the GTO is that it's supposed to border on silly and overdone. What, you think a Viper looks totally purposeful and rational? Of course not! And that's why it succeeds (at least for the people who like Vipers, which have generally been better received than last year's GTO in terms of looks).
So I like the looks better than before (if not as much as the new Mustang), and after firing it up and hearing the exhaust I liked that, too, but the Mustang still has the upper hand here as well. Another quick impression is that the interior, overall, is better than the Mustang's. The seats are wider with better bolstering (and relatively high-quality leather) and the metallic plastic on the steering wheel, shifter and hand brake is about as good as metallic plastic gets (the only thing better would be real metal, but at this price point I don't expect every piece of interior brightwork to be real metal, and again, as the faux stuff goes, this is about as good as I've seen).
I need to drive this car through a slalom to be sure (that happens next week) but the steering felt better than I remembered. It didn't seem unnecessarily heavy and the ratio didn't seem painfully slow -- both trademarks I remember from the 2004 I tested. Again, I could be off on my recollection, and a drive through the slalom will confirm it, but for just driving along PCH, and on the twisty part of Mulholland, the steering seemed fine. I would still give the Mustang the slight advantage in terms of quickness and feel, but the disparity between the two is less than I thought. Does anyone know if GM actually changed the steering for 2005? I can check my sources at the office tomorrow.
For most of my commute it was just basic city and highway driving, and the car was fine. Ride quality was perfectly acceptable and acceleration was never an issue. When I got to Mulholland I noticed one major issue with this car: the pedal placement makes heel-and-toe shifting nearly impossible. The brake pedal is too far away from the gas pedal, and they aren't close to each other in terms of "height," with the brake pedal much higher up. This is common problem I've run into on GM cars, and a good example of not sweating the details. You can't make a car like the GTO, outfit it with a fine six-speed manual, and then make it nearly impossible to heel-and-toe shift. Come on guys! Mustang definitely has the upper hand here.
I have to admit that I'm a bit gun shy about speeding tickets these days (wonder why???) so I didn't drive as fast on Mulholland as I might have otherwise. That said, the GTO was very entertaining with high grip, minimal body roll and, again, plenty of power. The traction control is pretty aggressive, and I only switched it off after I was almost done with the Mulholland stretch (I like to leave it on until I get very comfortable with a car's dynamics). The track testing will really tell me more about this car in terms of handling (and I won't be distracted by concerns of a black-and-white sedan coming around the bend).
Other small issues: the windows are only one touch down, Mustang is one-touch UP and down. The radio, despite being a Blaupunkt, didn't sound very good. Too muffled with poor separation. It also seemed to be getting rather bad reception of stations that usually come in fine on other cars at various spots along my drive.
Overall my opinion of the GTO has definitely gone up after tonight's drive. I'll drive it into work tomorrow morning, and test it at the track next week. Maybe I'll get back into our long-term Mustang tomorrow night to get a closer A-B comparison and help me confirm exactly how they stack up in terms of steering feel and handling dynamics. Right now I'd have to say they are much closer than I thought. Still don't know if my memory was off on the 2004 version or if the 2005 really got better in these areas.
I'll let you know if I get any other strong impressions on the drive in tomorrow.
Thanks for the response. Even though you have a lot of meetings, it still sounds like a lot of fun.
If I remember from earlier postings you are 35? How did you get your start? Any racing in your background?
In regards to performance testing - will different drivers have different results? When you figure 0-60 numbers and such, is it an average of many runs? Does Edmunds compensate for atmospheric conditions like Car and Driver?
GTO radio - that is one of my biggest complaints with the GTO, poor reception and not very good sound quality.
Since you mentioned you were attending an upcoming A3 event, it made me think of a couple of things.
When the press (such as yourself) goes to these type of events who flips the bill? Does the manufacturer cover air fare, lodging, food and such? Do they attempt to woo the press with gifts and high class meals etc...?
thanks for the GTO pre-review, Karl.. i have read in a couple places (including maybe C&D or MT) that the 2005 has something different with the power steering. maybe just a different p/s pump. i'm not 100% sure... so you like the hood scoops! i like them only when they increase performance - otherwise i like the visual of the smooth hood much better. that was one of my fave things about my Y2K Z28, the smooth hood. i never would have traded that thing had i know my wife was going to want to unload her minicooper a month later! anyway, i understand the GTO hood scoops might allow minimally better cooling, so maybe slightly better hp in conditions where the engine would have otherwise been running hot. but it ain't ram-air. cheers!
I've taken down a couple of posts that were branching off into the political world. That's another topic for another set of non-automotive message boards somewhere else.
Time to stop using this topic as a place to take shots at one another please. This time I'm handling it by giving the public "reminder" that everyone needs to behave, which SHOULD be sufficient...
Don't make me take the host bazooka out of its case
I started as an editorial assistant at Hot Rod magazine in 1994 and worked my way up. I spent time as a staff writer at Super Street magazine when it was launched in 1996 before coming to Edmunds in 1998. I'll readily admit to being proud of the fact that I didn't have any "connections" in this industry when I broke in 10 years ago, and I have performed nearly every job on the editorial side of the business on my way from editorial assistant to editor-in-chief. I like to think I'm an example of "If you work hard enough, and put your mind to it, you will eventually succeed."
My only racing background before getting into the business comes from years of drag racing during my teenage years (most of it AFTER I got my license, and some of it even occurred at a sanctioned drag race facility...). Since then I've been through plenty of professional driver training courses and race schools, but still no official "competition" for me (though I'd love to try it).
For instrumented testing I've been the only Edmunds test driver for over three years, but if you have two or more highly trained people the numbers should be very close no matter who is doing it. We do average our testing numbers over multiple runs to ensure accuracy, and we just started compensating for atmospheric conditions because we just changed test facilities. Before that we tested at sea level where the temperature was usually between 55 and 70 degrees, there was little to no wind, and the humidity was above 70 percent, so the correction factor was a non-issue. Now we're at 1,000 feet with higher temps, so we correct.
The short answer is "yes," the manufacturers pay for travel and accommodations, and they often include "gifts" with each press trip. The gifts can range from a shirt or jacket to a model car (usually of the car from the press trip) to a pair of hiking boots.
I've always laughed at the thought of someone changing their opinion of a vehicle based on getting a free letter opener, but I suppose it's possible. Some staffers don't except the gifts, and others bring them back and put them in a centralized location in the office before sending out an email that says "There's a free electronic organizer on the coffee table for anyone who wants it." BTW, some things have sat on that coffee table for many days...
Regardless of the gifts or the trips, I have absolute confidence that everyone on my staff reviews a vehicle based on the vehicle's traits, not on the windbreaker they were given or the fancy lodge they stayed in. How do I know this? Because I read the reviews and can see the methodical process and critical nature my staff uses when describing new models.
As such Edmunds editorial has a reputation for being particularly "honest" when it comes to car reviews, at least compared to some of the other publications out there, and we wear that reputation with pride. The chrome key chains and embroidered hats simply don't hold a candle to that badge of honor.
"Regardless of the gifts or the trips, I have absolute confidence that everyone on my staff reviews a vehicle based on the vehicle's traits, not on the windbreaker they were given or the fancy lodge they stayed in. How do I know this? Because I read the reviews and can see the methodical process and critical nature my staff uses when describing new models. "
I hope you know I was not implying that your reviews are in any way tainted because of gifts of any sort from the manufacturer.
And I agree that Edmunds is honest in the reviews - even though I do not always agree.
For instrument testing do you use a VBOX like some of the car magazines?
Karl, you have been at Edmunds through the reformatting that has taken place over the last several years. One of the major changes was the addition of advertiser content in the main research areas of the website, as well as ads in the forums. Have you seen any changes in editorial policies resulting from advertiser pressures? Obviously I'm thinking of GM's recent advertising changes. Any pressures like that here?
I hope you know I was not implying that your reviews are in any way tainted because of gifts of any sort from the manufacturer.
No worries, I didn't think you were suggesting anything.
For instrument testing do you use a VBOX like some of the car magazines?
Yes, we use VBOX for testing, and it's pretty impressive. Not cheap, though. You'd have to REALLY want to know how fast your own car is to buy one as a private individual.
I thought the time people keep a car has been increasing. From various articles the time "6 to 9 years" keeps coming up.
My understanding is that ownership time has been dropping, though much of the recent "pull forward" of sales, from incentives and such, is likely causing some of it. I think you have two types of owners. Those that buy a car and keep it forever and those that switch vehicles every three to six years. I think the latter group has been switching more often because of incentive activity.
I don't know what the average ownership time is, but I'd guess it to be around six years.
I read a study recently (can't find the link) that the average ownership was around 66 months and 80k miles. I agree though, there are lots of folks that turn cars every couple years and folks that keep them forever. Obviously, that builds into those average numbers!
Have you seen any changes in editorial policies resulting from advertiser pressures? Obviously I'm thinking of GM's recent advertising changes. Any pressures like that here?
First let me say that before I worked at Edmunds I worked at Petersen Publishing, which has since been purchased by Primedia (after being owned by EMAP and a private investment group).
With that as my background I must honestly say that the level of editorial integrity and purity at Edmunds.com is rather astonishing. To put it simply, I have never felt any pressure from the "business" side of the company with regard to editorial content. This editorial atmosphere comes from what should be common sense to any publisher, but is actually unique among most of them ("Common sense is not so common." -- Voltaire).
The management at Edmunds.com knows that ultimately readership drives the business, and readership suffers when editorial integrity suffers, ergo you must protect editorial integrity as a primary foundation of any publishing business. Seems basic enough, right? Well, trust me when I say that while the philosophy makes undeniable sense, the practice of this philosophy in modern publishing is far too rare. That's because too many modern publishers take a short term approach, and the immediate cash coming from various corporate interests is hard to turn down, even if it does long-term damage to your editorial voice and brand.
I should also mention that, beyond just following good business sense, the leaders of Edmunds.com are good people at heart and simply want to provide honest editorial content because, well, that's what publishers should do for their readers. Again, seems obvious but it isn't so common in today's world.
Sorry if this sounds like a sales presentation, or blatant "towing the company line" rhetoric, but I truly feel this way about my employer, and I know without question that it's a rare attribute.
I would further add that talking to my colleagues in the industry consistently confirms the unique position of Edmunds.com with regards to advertiser influence.
Thanks for a detailed answer. I have always liked the reviews at Edmunds, and trust that the editorial integrity behind them is as solid as you describe.
The reason I ask is that some changes do seem evident from this side of the page over the last two years. Editorial changes have been subtle, but criticisms in the written test drives and reviews seem to walk a finer line than before advertising was added. The changes in these forums have been more fundamental and pervasive, and freedom of expression is much more limited than before advertising was added.
Do you have any sense that any of the manufacturers actually read any of the member comments in these forums? Any feedback?
Comments
And yeah, I'm sure you're right about the dealers. It's only been company spokespeople that I've heard ask the EPA for changes.
Karl - A3 test drive notes! Please!
Yes they're selling quite well and I wouldn't look for anyone to bend over backwards to get you in one. Ford is scrambling to produce enough of these. The GT's are selling in 11 days, V6's in 22 days. Phenominal numbers for Ford. The old mustangs sat on the lot over 100 days. BTW, the average discount on a Mustang GT last month was $28. So you'll be paying sticker....
Numbers from Automotive News.
Right now I'm most eager to drive an e90 330i, Solstice and a Mazdaspeed3. as you can see from that selection, I'm all over the place on cost and style. Just want to love what I drive. A mustang at 25k is a steal (and opens the door to a nice convertible for weekend play).
My inorganic chemistry is quite rusty, but I would imagine various nitrogen oxides would have to be produced by a diesel engine in tiny quantities compared to CO2, for it to have a similar env. impact to a gasoline engine. NOx are literally poisonous and corrosive, producing nitric and nitrous acids when combined with water. CO2 is much less likely to kill protein-based lifeforms as long as enough oxygen is available... It can be considered almost an inert gas compared to NOx.
Our long-term Prius is averaging about 40 mpg http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=101393
I like driving it because it rides well, has comfortable seats, is really quiet and has plenty of room. A Jetta TDI would provide the first two, but not the last ones (though the Jetta would be more fun to drive).
I certainly like the "full" hybrids from Toyota more than the "light" hybrids from Honda, but in both cases they need to fix two items:
1. Lower purchase price
2. Higher REAL-WORLD mileage
Until then, hybrids will remain "feel good" cars that don't make sense in terms of bottom line numbers (we calculated that it will take four years and over 60,000 miles to "make up" the increased cost of a Hybrid Escape over a non-hybrid version).
Some enthusiasts put a premium on acceleration, some handling, and now there's a car for those who enthuse about mpg and clean air.
The problem with hybrids is they don't have any quantifiable advantage over comparable vehicles.
Do they cost less? No
Are they faster? No
Do they get better gas mileage? The answer is either "barely" or "no" depending on what you're comparing them to. And certainly the advantage isn't enough to compensate for their higher costs unless you own them for several years and drive them at least 60,000 miles, at which point they just break even with conventional gas and/or diesel engines. And how many people keep a car for at least five years or 60,000 miles these days?
So again, they are cool in terms of technological advancements, but otherwise they don't have a measurable advantage over other vehicles (whereas the new Mustang does).
Don't get me wrong, I still like hybrid technology. But it's definitely in the early stages, and like many breaking technologies, that's not always the best time to buy in.
But the Prius? Strictly transportation from A to B, or for high-MPG geeks...
I'm impressed with the technology, but I couldn't imagine spending an hour of my life in one every day...
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
However, have you driven a "performance" hybrid yet, like the Lexus RX400h? Those seem to do a better job of delivering the best of both worlds, albeit at a big up-front price increase.
editor_karl, "Karl's Daily Log Book" #126, 6 Apr 2005 7:12 pm
kirstie_h
Roving Host
Host, Future Vehicles & Smart Shopper discussions
MODERATOR /ADMINISTRATOR
Find me at kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
2015 Kia Soul, 2021 Subaru Forester (kirstie_h), 2024 GMC Sierra 1500 (mr. kirstie_h)
Review your vehicle
You yourself just bought a rare, classic bike which would likely be handed it's tail pipe by just about any modern motorcycle on the showroom floor. Did you buy it because it was faster, handled better, or got better gas mileage? Probably not. You just admitted that you felt guilty riding it home. No, you likely made that purchase to invest in what you consider automotive art. Or because that particular bike had impressive qualities for it's day and age and therefore has special significance to you.
For my wife, and I agree with her on this, a hybrid is a similar purchase. The allure is not based on performance. It's not based on dollars and cents. It's based on an all-together different kind of green. Buying a Prius is an investment in automotive technology (rather than automotive art). It's a more altruistic purchase than a thumping-my-chest-Mustang. It's a chance to vote when the auto manufacturers ask, "why make green cars?" If people don't buy these early hybrids, the manufacturers have little incentive to design better ones.
Frankly, I don't see many enthusiasts buying GTOs just so GM will make another one. Performance enthusiasts have got nothing on hybrid enthusiasts when it comes to passion.
We have more options. GTO may be fast but it's in a market loaded with fast cars. I'm a performance enthusiast but short of a Porsche (and possibly a Mustang GT - still must drive it) there isn't a coupe out there that tempts me. The GTO could sticker for 15k and I still wouldn't want it. Same with the Vette and Viper.
Gimme a lightning quick 4 door sedan with great handling and I'm a happy monkey. A tight, small, nimble convertible and I'm interested. A big, heavy two door coupe...no thanks.
http://biz.yahoo.com/fool/050426/111452492807.html?.v=2
"Our interest in hybrids is like that of most people. We want better fuel economy, we want to be kinder to the environment, and particularly in the case of the Honda Accord, I want a car with some oomph (my wife is indifferent to the "oomph" issue). You've probably noticed I left out the economic argument for a hybrid."
Well gas is $3.00 a gallon by me. I've seen it over $3.00 already. I got premium the other day for $2.73 and felt happy about the bargain at Costco. Most stations near me are charging $2.80-2.90 for premium.
it is no co-incidence, that the most neglected key at the end of the day at Road & Track's key board is the Prius.
At some point, a manufacturer is going to introduce a "sporty" hybrid. Honda is getting sort of close with the Accord, but it's only available as a 4 door.
It will be interesting to see who (if anybody) introduces a 2-door perforrnace coupe/convertible with a high-HP hybrid powertrain.Would it have a manual transmission? A 6-speed Accord Coupe with the hybrid V6 might be an interesting offering .. but would it appeal to the public?
It seems contradictory to put the words "hybrid" and "sporty" into the same sentence ---- most people equate "hybrid" with "frugal". Paying a premium of several thousand dollars simply to have the hybrid technology and add a few MPG to their daily driving habits when the technology is applied to a sporty car seems odd to me.
Who knows what the future holds?
Discuss......
I mean, people will pay an extra $4,000 to buy an SUV rather than be saddled with the mommy-mobile stigma of a minivan or station wagon. Other than a little extra machismo, they get nothing in return except lower gas mileage, worse handling, and a less roomy interior. But we're questioning the $3,000 price increase for a hybrid because it will merely break even?
I'm with Karl on one point. The electronic half of Toyota's THS systems are more impressive than Honda's IMA. The benefits to that design are greater. However, I think you pay a higher price to reap those rewards when it comes to driving dynamics. The Civic and Accord hybrids are pretty much ordinary cars. While they each have some of the dynamic drawbacks of a hybrid, those drawbacks are not nearly as significant.
With that in mind, why is the Prius the one in such high demand? If driving dynamics are so important, why does the Prius own 64% of the market?
it is no co-incidence, that the most neglected key at the end of the day at Road & Track's key board is the Prius. - Shifty
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying hybrids are for everybody anymore than I would say an S2000
Acura has announced that they plan to have performance hybrids in the near future. Of course, they are honda quiet about when and what will happen.
But there has been some backlash over the notion. When Honda introduced the Accord hybrid, several hypermilers here at Edmunds cried, "Abomination!" They wanted to know why Honda used a V6 instead of a less powerful, more frugal I4 engine.
So the niche is really "anti-car", and not any more earth-friendly than an equivalently energy-efficient gasoline car. That's PR flak. I ride a bike one day to work and drive a gas guzzling Porsche the next. So I'm not "earth friendly" but the Prius owner is? Gimme a break.
Granted, anyone who likes accelerating and braking won't get good mileage in a hybrid... but getting a hybrid would only be as silly as if that person looked for a non-hybrid fuel efficient car. The fact that it's a hybrid isn't the important there. But there's no reason that a hybrid has to have incommunicative steering, or an automatic transmission.
If the next Civic gets its fun-to-drive feeling back, and they make a hybrid version, we might see a funner alternative to the Prius.
Yup, keys to a 2005 Pontiac GTO (bright yellow, no less).
I'm driving it home in about 10 minutes and I'll let you know what I think tomorrow (or maybe when I get home tonight if I have the energy to post -- been a long day).
Here's hoping the "upgrades" for 2005 make me like it more than I did the 2004...
So here is a question for you - besides getting to drive cars all the time, what does your job involve? Curious as to what you do on a daily basis? It seems that you have a lot of toys and you live in CA, so you must do more than the occasional review that we see on Edmunds. Just thought it might be interesting to get a glimpse at the typical "Karl" work day.
Once upon a time my job was all about the cars. I attended press events, wrote road tests, participated in comparison tests, and even photographed my own test cars (despite having a dedicated photographer on staff -- I like doing my own photography...when I have the time).
I don't want to sound too, "those were the days" or anything, because my current duties have their own sets of challenges and rewards, but my job was certainly "more about the cars" back when I was a road test editor.
Now I get to do a lot of management stuff, which means meetings, story planning, meetings, dealing with personnel issues, meetings, and long-term planning for overall team goals regarding content direction and site design. And sometimes, in between all of that, I attend another meeting...
Today was a good example. I drove in to work but had to leave almost immediately to attend a market study/future product planning meeting held by an automaker in Irvine (50 miles away in Orange County). I was there with a staffer from Automotive News and Popular Mechanics, and (suitably fitting considering the recent discussion strings) we were asked about the current and future potential of hybrid drivetrains in the market.
The "mysterious" part of the meeting was that we didn't know at the time, and aren't supposed to ever know, who was hosting the meeting. There was a large microphone in the conference room and a camera in the corner, and we were told that company reps from the "mystery" automaker were listening to, and watching, the entire discussion (it was hosted by a research company that was hired by the automaker to ask us specific questions and get our feedback).
BTW, I was glad to have the recent feedback from everyone in this discussion to draw on for my opinions of hybrid potential. Thanks guys!!
Between the Irvine meeting and commute time that ate up about four and a half hours of my day. Then I got back to work and dug through email and answered phone messages (another hour). One return call I made was to confirm logistics for an upcoming Audi A3 event I'm attending next week. I'll be getting a driveaway for a full test, so that story should be up in about three weeks.
Then I read a few stories on what we call the "staging server." This is where stories are posted that are essentially ready to go "live" on the site, but we use this point in the process to do a final read and confirm things like layout and make sure the right caption is appearing under the right photo, etc. This took about a half hour.
Then I attended a meeting regarding an upcoming story that involves sending a person to Europe for some test drives. They will be driving two premium sedans, each in their respective country of origin, and then writing a "how each car reflects its home country in terms of design, style and driving dynamics." Should be a cool story, and we had to plan driving routes and video crew logistics. That took a half hour (but this is one meeting in a series of meetings regarding this story, so don't get the idea that a story this big can be handled in one 30 minute meeting...).
Then I spent about 30 minutes going through today's discussion responses and adding two of my own, before leaving the office in the 2005 GTO test car. On the drive home I took a different route that included a stretch on Mulholland Drive to fully evaluate the GTO. It added a few minutes to my commute, but was obviously worth it! Now I'm home and about to give everyone a basic rundown of my thoughts on this car.
Some days are more meetings, some days are more car oriented. Next week we have a day at our test facility where we will be testing SEVEN cars for acceleration, braking and handling, so that will be a day spent largely out of the office. I'm still the primary test driver for this kind of testing, but I'm training another staffer to do this because it's taking too much of my time these days. Two of those test cars are part of a comparison test (one is the GTO I drove tonight, guess what the other one is...) and the others are just part of our typical test car work load, where we usually have between two and four cars a week to write road tests on.
This gives a pretty good idea of how I (hopefully) earn my keep at Edmunds.
Thanks for asking.
First, as an overall comment, I liked this car better than the 2004. I don't know if the 2005 model is substantially better than the 2004, or if it was just better than I remember the 2004. Regardless, I enjoyed the car more than I expected.
First, when I walked out of the elevator into our parking garage someone had parked the GTO so that it was backed in and facing the elevator (strange because usually our test cars are parked "head in"). This means that when the doors opened I saw a bright yellow coupe with cool hood slits and an aggressive grille. My first thought was, "I can't believe those hood slits really make the car look that much better, but right here, right now, it does look cool." Sure, the yellow color isn't for everyone (myself included) and some people will think the hood scoops look "silly" or overdone, but to my eyes part of the idea behind a car like the GTO is that it's supposed to border on silly and overdone. What, you think a Viper looks totally purposeful and rational? Of course not! And that's why it succeeds (at least for the people who like Vipers, which have generally been better received than last year's GTO in terms of looks).
So I like the looks better than before (if not as much as the new Mustang), and after firing it up and hearing the exhaust I liked that, too, but the Mustang still has the upper hand here as well. Another quick impression is that the interior, overall, is better than the Mustang's. The seats are wider with better bolstering (and relatively high-quality leather) and the metallic plastic on the steering wheel, shifter and hand brake is about as good as metallic plastic gets (the only thing better would be real metal, but at this price point I don't expect every piece of interior brightwork to be real metal, and again, as the faux stuff goes, this is about as good as I've seen).
I need to drive this car through a slalom to be sure (that happens next week) but the steering felt better than I remembered. It didn't seem unnecessarily heavy and the ratio didn't seem painfully slow -- both trademarks I remember from the 2004 I tested. Again, I could be off on my recollection, and a drive through the slalom will confirm it, but for just driving along PCH, and on the twisty part of Mulholland, the steering seemed fine. I would still give the Mustang the slight advantage in terms of quickness and feel, but the disparity between the two is less than I thought. Does anyone know if GM actually changed the steering for 2005? I can check my sources at the office tomorrow.
For most of my commute it was just basic city and highway driving, and the car was fine. Ride quality was perfectly acceptable and acceleration was never an issue. When I got to Mulholland I noticed one major issue with this car: the pedal placement makes heel-and-toe shifting nearly impossible. The brake pedal is too far away from the gas pedal, and they aren't close to each other in terms of "height," with the brake pedal much higher up. This is common problem I've run into on GM cars, and a good example of not sweating the details. You can't make a car like the GTO, outfit it with a fine six-speed manual, and then make it nearly impossible to heel-and-toe shift. Come on guys! Mustang definitely has the upper hand here.
I have to admit that I'm a bit gun shy about speeding tickets these days (wonder why???) so I didn't drive as fast on Mulholland as I might have otherwise. That said, the GTO was very entertaining with high grip, minimal body roll and, again, plenty of power. The traction control is pretty aggressive, and I only switched it off after I was almost done with the Mulholland stretch (I like to leave it on until I get very comfortable with a car's dynamics). The track testing will really tell me more about this car in terms of handling (and I won't be distracted by concerns of a black-and-white sedan coming around the bend).
Other small issues: the windows are only one touch down, Mustang is one-touch UP and down. The radio, despite being a Blaupunkt, didn't sound very good. Too muffled with poor separation. It also seemed to be getting rather bad reception of stations that usually come in fine on other cars at various spots along my drive.
Overall my opinion of the GTO has definitely gone up after tonight's drive. I'll drive it into work tomorrow morning, and test it at the track next week. Maybe I'll get back into our long-term Mustang tomorrow night to get a closer A-B comparison and help me confirm exactly how they stack up in terms of steering feel and handling dynamics. Right now I'd have to say they are much closer than I thought. Still don't know if my memory was off on the 2004 version or if the 2005 really got better in these areas.
I'll let you know if I get any other strong impressions on the drive in tomorrow.
If I remember from earlier postings you are 35? How did you get your start? Any racing in your background?
In regards to performance testing - will different drivers have different results? When you figure 0-60 numbers and such, is it an average of many runs? Does Edmunds compensate for atmospheric conditions like Car and Driver?
GTO radio - that is one of my biggest complaints with the GTO, poor reception and not very good sound quality.
When the press (such as yourself) goes to these type of events who flips the bill? Does the manufacturer cover air fare, lodging, food and such? Do they attempt to woo the press with gifts and high class meals etc...?
Thanks again.
Thanks for the essay on your daily job, it was an interesting read. A pity about the meetings...
so you like the hood scoops!
Back to paging through Karl's logbook!
Don't make me take the host bazooka out of its case
My only racing background before getting into the business comes from years of drag racing during my teenage years (most of it AFTER I got my license, and some of it even occurred at a sanctioned drag race facility...). Since then I've been through plenty of professional driver training courses and race schools, but still no official "competition" for me (though I'd love to try it).
For instrumented testing I've been the only Edmunds test driver for over three years, but if you have two or more highly trained people the numbers should be very close no matter who is doing it. We do average our testing numbers over multiple runs to ensure accuracy, and we just started compensating for atmospheric conditions because we just changed test facilities. Before that we tested at sea level where the temperature was usually between 55 and 70 degrees, there was little to no wind, and the humidity was above 70 percent, so the correction factor was a non-issue. Now we're at 1,000 feet with higher temps, so we correct.
I've always laughed at the thought of someone changing their opinion of a vehicle based on getting a free letter opener, but I suppose it's possible. Some staffers don't except the gifts, and others bring them back and put them in a centralized location in the office before sending out an email that says "There's a free electronic organizer on the coffee table for anyone who wants it." BTW, some things have sat on that coffee table for many days...
Regardless of the gifts or the trips, I have absolute confidence that everyone on my staff reviews a vehicle based on the vehicle's traits, not on the windbreaker they were given or the fancy lodge they stayed in. How do I know this? Because I read the reviews and can see the methodical process and critical nature my staff uses when describing new models.
As such Edmunds editorial has a reputation for being particularly "honest" when it comes to car reviews, at least compared to some of the other publications out there, and we wear that reputation with pride. The chrome key chains and embroidered hats simply don't hold a candle to that badge of honor.
I hope you know I was not implying that your reviews are in any way tainted because of gifts of any sort from the manufacturer.
And I agree that Edmunds is honest in the reviews - even though I do not always agree.
For instrument testing do you use a VBOX like some of the car magazines?
What, Karl, is the current median age for a car in the USA? And at what age do most people decide the car is ready to be traded/dumped/etc. ??
Nah, usually we just get models that you can buy in any Toys 'R Us, though sometimes we get them before they are available through retail outlets.
No worries, I didn't think you were suggesting anything.
For instrument testing do you use a VBOX like some of the car magazines?
Yes, we use VBOX for testing, and it's pretty impressive. Not cheap, though. You'd have to REALLY want to know how fast your own car is to buy one as a private individual.
My understanding is that ownership time has been dropping, though much of the recent "pull forward" of sales, from incentives and such, is likely causing some of it. I think you have two types of owners. Those that buy a car and keep it forever and those that switch vehicles every three to six years. I think the latter group has been switching more often because of incentive activity.
I don't know what the average ownership time is, but I'd guess it to be around six years.
First let me say that before I worked at Edmunds I worked at Petersen Publishing, which has since been purchased by Primedia (after being owned by EMAP and a private investment group).
With that as my background I must honestly say that the level of editorial integrity and purity at Edmunds.com is rather astonishing. To put it simply, I have never felt any pressure from the "business" side of the company with regard to editorial content. This editorial atmosphere comes from what should be common sense to any publisher, but is actually unique among most of them ("Common sense is not so common." -- Voltaire).
The management at Edmunds.com knows that ultimately readership drives the business, and readership suffers when editorial integrity suffers, ergo you must protect editorial integrity as a primary foundation of any publishing business. Seems basic enough, right? Well, trust me when I say that while the philosophy makes undeniable sense, the practice of this philosophy in modern publishing is far too rare. That's because too many modern publishers take a short term approach, and the immediate cash coming from various corporate interests is hard to turn down, even if it does long-term damage to your editorial voice and brand.
I should also mention that, beyond just following good business sense, the leaders of Edmunds.com are good people at heart and simply want to provide honest editorial content because, well, that's what publishers should do for their readers. Again, seems obvious but it isn't so common in today's world.
Sorry if this sounds like a sales presentation, or blatant "towing the company line" rhetoric, but I truly feel this way about my employer, and I know without question that it's a rare attribute.
I would further add that talking to my colleagues in the industry consistently confirms the unique position of Edmunds.com with regards to advertiser influence.
The reason I ask is that some changes do seem evident from this side of the page over the last two years. Editorial changes have been subtle, but criticisms in the written test drives and reviews seem to walk a finer line than before advertising was added. The changes in these forums have been more fundamental and pervasive, and freedom of expression is much more limited than before advertising was added.
Do you have any sense that any of the manufacturers actually read any of the member comments in these forums? Any feedback?