I am pretty sure that the larger wheels from the OEMs were engineered to withstand potholes and the such.
When the mags talk about plus sizes I am guessing that they are referring to aftermarket wheels that are not up to the same standards than that of original equipment.
I am also thinking that the tires used by GM are not as low-profile as those that people put on aftermarket rims.
I could be wrong, but I believe there is some truth to my statements.
Um, dubs are usually 20 inches or over. You can check urbandictionary.com for the various definitions.
Do they improve handling? It depends on the starting point and the weight. A magnesium-based 18 inch rim would be light and extremely strong but super pricey. I believe some rims are made more for splash than dash. I'd expect GM would put cheap, heavy rims on their cars.
As for the durability, there are so many other issues to take into account - manufacturing process, metals used, design, weight of the car, the tread depth, etc. My car has factory 18s and I've hit some major holes. No damage thus far after 2 years.
And you have a choice...you can sell the factory rims and buy yourself some "phat" 16s or 15s.
Aren't "dubs" defined as being anything over normal factory sized wheel/tire? Problem is what _is_ a normal factory size tire (Mailbu is 15" on base, 16" upscale, 18" ss)?
Anyway, Karl, whatever light you can shed here will be appreciated.
"dub" = 20in "dub-two" = 22in etc 20" is the magic number when it comes to blinging out your car.
And yeah, larger wheels can improve handling, because to maintain the same volume of air, they're wider. More width = more contact patch = more grip. However, you lose acceleration because bigger rims have a greater rotational inertia. Even if you find larger rims that weigh the same as the originals, they'll usually have a greater rotational inertia because of the rim along the outside of the wheel. Certain companies - those involved in racing, generally - make lightweight wheels, and those will improve performance in every way. The strong ones (forged, not cast) are expensive though. None of them are very flashy. I've never seen a lightweight cromed wheel.
(But bling is all about cruising slowly, so it's ok - no performance pretentions there.)
Hardcore drag racers use wheels that are both light AND small (15" or less). Track racers use big rims for both their width and for the original purpose of large wheels - to have space for bigger brakes. That's why exotics have huge wheels - they're filled by huge brake plates. And that's how the trend began. Anything that goes on race cars is by definition cool, and soon trickles down to the tuners.
Re "Larger wheels can improve handling, because to maintain the same volume of air, they're wider. More width = more contact patch = more grip," your statement is true for the width, but not for the height and weight. Additional unsprung weight is bad for both acceleration and handling. A lower aspect sidewall will give you crisper turn-in and better ultimate grip, but only on smooth surfaces. Like everything else in life, it's a compromise, and you need to make sure what it is you want to emphasize before buying wheels and tires. I don't go any lower than 45s, because thinner tires than that tend to really crash over bad pavement -- bad for handling, bad for the suspension and bad for my nerves!
Alright GM minivans all drive the same. That I accept as true. However I just have one question.
Is there a Chevrolet Cobalt SEDAN full test on this website?! I read a review on Car and Driver, but I like edmunds reveiws better because they focus on more aspects of the car apart from how the car handles.
We haven't done a Cobalt sedan test yet, but we will soon.
Cobalt test cars are still not easy to come by. I was at an event last week and the guys from AutoWeek and Automobile we're giving me a hard time because we already had a Cobalt SS story on our site. They were claiming that GM told them no Cobalt SS models would be available for testing for several more weeks, yet we ran our road test of the SS in March.
Regardless, we'll get a sedan ASAP. I would like to perform an in-depth evaluation of the volume seller.
I was reading Sport Compact Car's review of the Cobalt... they say it felt heavy to them, heavier than the Ion Redline, and blamed the hefty wheels.
It's understandable to some extent though... style works 24/7. A performance difference of a few tenths of a second only means anything when you're at a track.
The manufacturers are basically "leaving money on the table" every time they sell a car and someone goes out and spends another $5,000 to $25,000 on it in the aftermarket (professional athletes and/or famous people will spend $25,000 on their car without blinking twice, just to make it "special").
The extra large wheels that GM now offers on its trucks, not to mention all the accessories offered through Scion, Mini and several other manufacturers, are part of the same goal: make money off those high margin aftermarket parts, just like the aftermarket manufacturers do. Considering the money made in the aftermarket every year, the OEMs would be crazy to not try and grab of piece that pie.
I do like the fact that manufacturer accessories usually: 1. Offer the same warranty as the rest of the car, if purchased when the car is new 2. Can be rolled into the total cost of the car, meaning you may get another $3,000 worth of accessories added, but it only costs you another $40 a month on your car payment.
Of course, paying interest over five years on accessories isn't the wisest financial move, but it does make them more affordable for some buyers. However, OEM accessories are often more expensive than the equivalent items bought directly through aftermarket vendors.
on snoop dog's snizzle fizzle tv show, he had a segment "great moments in black history". one of those was about the first time a guy bought rims that were worth more than the car. funny stuff. bling shming! it amuses me to see how much pop culture copies the 'street' culture from the ghettos/gang-life/pimp-style - this includes automotive styling/aftermarkets, and what we see from the manufacturers themselves, such as the absurdly sized wheels on the new malibu SS. i've just barely warmed up to the idea of 17 inch rims on cars. i think that sizes beyond 17 are comical, except maybe on a corvette or some sort of track-monster car like that. "> what's next in ghetto-styling? drivers seats moved to the center of the vehicle so that drivers can "slouch" better?
in other news,, i saw some photos yesterday of a new airless michelin tire. "tweel". pretty wild - have you seen those, Karl? the tire is supported by a plastic 'mesh' or something like that. and there's no sidewall at all.
also Karl surely it has been observed by others before me - that you may have one of the coolest possible jobs on the planet. cheers!
I'm aware of two major music/cultural upheavals in the USA : Rock in the 60's (now going through a minor revival), and Rap in the 90's (and "the thing" today).
How much influence have __both__ of these cultures had on car design?
And specifically on Rap, what is the "ill-est" vehicle out there that satisfies this "street" culture? And - frankly - how much does the "bling" they feel so important screw the vehicles up "performance"- wise?
I think the 'Slade and the 300 are still the leading contenders, and after that it just comes down to whether a "Rappa" (note my "gansta" spelling of "rappa" :shades: ) wants a sedan or SUV.
Bentley's and Maybachs are also popular, but I believe there's a certain level or street cred' that comes with the 300 and 'Slade, while those uber-expensive sedans are seen as just statements of being wealthy. It's easy for a wealthy person to prove he's/she's wealthy, but having the cultural awareness to know that blinged-out 300s and 'Slades are the...well, stuff (can't use the real word) says you're "down with the homies," so to speak.
I've spent the last two days driving our long-term Mustang, which I haven't been in for a few months.
I forgot how much fun this car is. We got a GT-five-speed with no options, just because I wanted to see what you really got for "under $25,000," as Ford boasts. Well, Ford has good reason to boast, because you get a damn fine performance coupe for that money, and you still get one-touch up/down windows, cruise control, awesome wheels and a solid sound system. Plus, Ford has nailed the exhaust sound. I don't know how they're going to make the GT500 sound better than this one. I loved how my Bullitt Mustang sounded when I had one, and I heard that the Ford guys wanted to make every GT in 2005 sound as good as the limited production Bullitt sounded in 2001. Mission Accomplished!! Here's our long-term reports on the car so far, if you're interested: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=104507
For those who want to get into the GTO vs Mustang debate, here's how I see it:
Steering: Advantage Mustang Handling: Advantage Mustang Acceleration: Advantage GTO Exhaust Sound: Advantage Mustang Styling: Advantage Mustang Interior Controls: Advantage Mustang Interior Quality: Too close to call, would need to sit in each one back-to-back Price: Advantage Mustang
As you can probably guess, I like one much more than the other.
Is the manual tranny at all improved on the Mustang? I love the look of the car. It's gorgeous. But my experiences with Mustang handling and transmissions have kept me from actually visiting a dealership.
To clue you into how picky I am about manual trannies, I adore Miata's transmission and I simply tolerate the 6 speed on my 330i perf package.
How was the fit and finish on your Mustang? I saw a new one at the gas station and I was a bit dismayed. I could have stuck my finger easily between the door and the body. Also some orangepeel. The car still had the window sticker, I don't think it had been hit but it looked like it had.
I don't have a problem with the new Mustang's shifter, but I'm probably not as focused on that element as you are (remember, I'm a "steering feel" guy, which I love in the new Mustang).
That said, I have instrument tested our car and I know I can slam gears quickly without a problem, but I also know there are better transmissions out there (the S2000 quickly comes to mind).
One of the best parts of the new Mustang's shifter is its simple location. The previous model never felt right (the shifter was too far up and away). That alone makes it seem much better to me.
Fit, finish and interior material quality are clearly better than the previous version. That still doesn't put it at Honda levels, but among domestics it's still quite good, and good enough compared to the Japanese that I'm not distracted by it. I know our long-term car's body panels are generally tight and consistent (I think the trunk lid fit is slightly off, if I remember correctly).
Again, for an honest price of less than $25,000 I think it's a hell of deal (remember, the V8 doesn't just sound good, it makes 300 horsepower and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds).
Another good guess, but I'm going to provide the answer here and now because the vehicle just arrived:
1973 Triumph TRX75 Hurricane
This is a rather obscure classic Triumph motorcycle, but for fans of this genre it's a pretty special bike. They only made 1,180 of them, and the bike is kind of like the C5 Corvette in that it was never supposed to happen. But a couple of people at BSA/Triumph in 1969 got "creative" with company funds and developed the bike under the corporate radar (just like the C5). It's also considered the first "factory custom" motorcycle ever made.
Scroll down and click on the "How the Triumph Hurricane Came About" link for an interesting read (if you're into classic motorcycles).
I bought the bike from a guy in Canton, Ohio. It has 2,311 miles on it and is in museum quality condition. It arrived Thursday in an Allied Van Lines truck and I rode it home yesterday from work (feeling guilty as each of the 47 miles clicked by, but also rather exhilarated because I've dreamed of this bike since I was 15 years old).
BTW, I'm getting one more vehicle (besides the Odyssey I've promised my wife) in July, and this one is a car built after 2000, so maybe we'll do this again and it will be more interesting for everyone.
Oh, I ran British bikes for many years, (also many BMWs and a few Ducatis--, hated Japanese bikes and Harleys, still do) so I know all the pros and cons I think about Brit bikes....which are, in 50 words or less....GREAT handling (even by modern standards)....good for a few hours but generally not touring bikes...reliability directly related to maintenance....best looking bikes in the world. I had a Norton Commando, Norton Atlas, Triumph Bonneville, Royal Enfield. Don't ride anymore in the Bay Area...weather generally sucks, roads are awful. It ain't Colorado, which was wonderful for bikes. LA would be more pleasant weather-wise and great for skirting traffic.
Karl you are killin me with the GM hatin! but hey, i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm just bummed out that GM is slacking. you do know that some 2004 GTOs sold new for as low as $20k with all the incentives, right? but that's as sad as it is a good bargain. i'll soon have $3k on my GM card and i wonder if i'll just toss the card and "eat" the $3k rebate- there are so few GM products which interest me. i can get GMS price anyway, but that can't be combined with GM Card. i'm an old-time Camaro/firebird guy but gotta give a nod to the new mustangs - Ford sure has done it right. even so i want to give GM one last chance, one last hurrah, so i'm leaning towards a 2006 GTO if things go according to plan. even if i do buy another GM car, i'll probably cancel my GM card immediately afterwards, "knowing" that it will be my last GM...
BTW, I'm getting one more vehicle (besides the Odyssey I've promised my wife) in July, and this one is a car built after 2000, so maybe we'll do this again and it will be more interesting for everyone.
The new Mustang is probably the best performance car money can buy for $25,570. Only two problems -
1- Almost impossible to find a GT, at least here in MI.
2- I believe that the price is increasing by $1,400 or so. I remember reading something like this, can't remember where exactly.
Ford has a hit on their hands. I drove one last July at a preview and it was great. If I did not get my GTO for so little, I would have definitely looked at the Mustang.
It sounds like we're pretty similar in our tastes.
I grew up driving classic BSAs and Triumphs because my older brothers were into them. They always made fun of Japanese bikes because: A. They didn't handle for...well, you know B. They had things like the frame brake during professional races because they were built so cheap C. They didn't possess any soul
Most of that changed by the mid-80s, when the quality consistently went up across the all the model lines and they figured out how to combine things like rake and trail to return good handling. Certainly they offered advanced features like electric start and disc brakes before the British bikes, and they rarely leaked fluids while costing less. BUT, those early 1960s-1970s models were made with the cheapest possible grade of metal that would get the job done (and sometimes it still didn't, thus the broken frames during races), they handled like a truck, and often their "advanced" features didn't work any better than the "old" British equivalent. For example, I've heard that while the 1969 Honda CB750 had disc brakes and the 1969 BSA Rocket Three had drums, the BSA would stop as well or better then the Honda.
Now they are some of the most advanced bikes on the planet. But I still consider them pretty soul-less. I've never owned one and probably never will (I could be talked into a Honda RC30 if I found a clean example at a great price).
I've also owned a Ducati 750 Paso and 851 Superbike, and I still love Ducatis, but I'm just not that interested in go that fast anymore (chalk it up to age and a desire to return safely to my family).
I've also never owned a Harley and don't see it happening, though I do like the V-Rod (the engine was co-developed by Porsche, so I gotta love the engineering background on that one).
I just spent three hours yesterday afternoon/evening cleaning and polishing my 1975 Triumph Trident T160 (it was looking pretty shabby compared to the newly-arrived Hurricane) and about halfway through I thought to myself, "You can just see the artisan philosophy and craftsmanship that went into designing and assembling this bike." I honestly feel like there are very few motorcycle brands out there that build anything worthy of a three-hour cleaning/polishing job.
Karl you are killin me with the GM hatin! but hey, i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm just bummed out that GM is slacking.
You and me both. When all said and done I would rather spend my money with an American car company than any other. I grew up in Denver and was pretty red-white-and-blue the first 25 years of my life. The thought of buying a Japanese or European car over an American product is tantamount to treason to many of the people in that part of the country, regardless of the facts about things like build quality, reliability, re-sale value, etc.
But then I moved to L.A. and eventually went to work for Super Street, a magazine that focuses on modified import cars, with a strong emphasis on Japanese cars. After my first spin in an Integra Type-R I was sold. The shifter's feel, the engine's refinement and power (without using forced induction) and the overall build quality of the entire car was undeniable. The American's didn't even offer a similar type of vehicle until the SVT Focus (a car I still like a lot).
One of the other editors on my team also has a GM card that he's earned a bunch of "points" with, but a few months ago he said exactly what you did, "I don't know if there's anything I want to buy from GM, even with the discount I'll get."
Here's hoping the STS and XLR are glimpses of things to come, and that the Solstice and Aura live up to everyone's hopes and expectations -- AND, more importantly, the competition! For those cars to really work, they have to convince people in Los Angeles and Miami to pick a Solstice and Aura over a Miata and Accord.
I've been interrogating owners---actual real world mileage, city/hwy is 41-44, not much more (if any) than a VW TDI diesel. Oddly enough, the Prius gets better mileage in the city than on the highway. The 60 mpg dealers advertise is a crock. Prius is a car for people who hate cars but love gadgets. It's a marvelous piece of engineering though I'll say that for it.
Karl---what have you heard about this mileage thing? Same or ????
"Oddly enough, the Prius gets better mileage in the city than on the highway."
I thought that was common knowledge. I'm sure you know the reasons why it's true, or you can think of them when you think about how the hybrid works. But for city commutes or stop and go (or stop and go in the city) it's great. Still not very high numbers, but we usually forget that under those circumstances normal cars do really badly.
As for 60mpg... I think manufacturers and dealers are legally bound to use EPA mpg estimates. Honda and Toyota have been asking for new EPA tests because they realize the bad publicity that this is getting. And apparently the VW Lupo TDI (tiny car, tiny engine) can get 75mpg. We (well, a "we" that doesn't include me) don't want cars that small though. Lots of people say the Golf TDI is too small. In that sense the Prius isn't so bad - good mileage for the size.
Diesels still get higher particulate and NOx emissions though. It's still a debate in environmental science circles over how much worse NOx is than CO2; its effect is a lot stronger than CO2, which is balanced by its lower concentration, but it also lacks the clout of CO2 and that affects political regulations on emissions.
Thanks for your opinion. I'm struggling to find a manual GT to drive in so cal. Every seedy dealer tells me, "There are none in Southern California, but I can put you in a nice automatic. It's the same thing." Grrrrrrrrr.
I'd like to see that test run again today, thank you very much.
PRIUS -- Well, you are too kind to dealers....I hardly think they are plastering 60 MPG in big letters only to satisfy EPA laws....most of the time when they have to conform to laws they use about 4 point type.
NOX--hard to say how bad it is, but I do know that if you try to commit suicide with a diesel car n a closed garage you are going to end up very sick but disappointed.
Comments
When the mags talk about plus sizes I am guessing that they are referring to aftermarket wheels that are not up to the same standards than that of original equipment.
I am also thinking that the tires used by GM are not as low-profile as those that people put on aftermarket rims.
I could be wrong, but I believe there is some truth to my statements.
"Friends Don't Let Friends Modify Cars" columm here at Edmunds has info on dubs.
And yes, I am looking into forged wheels to reduce unsprung weight (only problem is for my car, the only finish is, ugh, chrome).
Do they improve handling? It depends on the starting point and the weight. A magnesium-based 18 inch rim would be light and extremely strong but super pricey. I believe some rims are made more for splash than dash. I'd expect GM would put cheap, heavy rims on their cars.
As for the durability, there are so many other issues to take into account - manufacturing process, metals used, design, weight of the car, the tread depth, etc. My car has factory 18s and I've hit some major holes. No damage thus far after 2 years.
And you have a choice...you can sell the factory rims and buy yourself some "phat" 16s or 15s.
Anyway, Karl, whatever light you can shed here will be appreciated.
"dub-two" = 22in
etc
20" is the magic number when it comes to blinging out your car.
And yeah, larger wheels can improve handling, because to maintain the same volume of air, they're wider. More width = more contact patch = more grip.
However, you lose acceleration because bigger rims have a greater rotational inertia. Even if you find larger rims that weigh the same as the originals, they'll usually have a greater rotational inertia because of the rim along the outside of the wheel.
Certain companies - those involved in racing, generally - make lightweight wheels, and those will improve performance in every way. The strong ones (forged, not cast) are expensive though. None of them are very flashy. I've never seen a lightweight cromed wheel.
(But bling is all about cruising slowly, so it's ok - no performance pretentions there.)
Hardcore drag racers use wheels that are both light AND small (15" or less). Track racers use big rims for both their width and for the original purpose of large wheels - to have space for bigger brakes. That's why exotics have huge wheels - they're filled by huge brake plates. And that's how the trend began. Anything that goes on race cars is by definition cool, and soon trickles down to the tuners.
Is there a Chevrolet Cobalt SEDAN full test on this website?! I read a review on Car and Driver, but I like edmunds reveiws better because they focus on more aspects of the car apart from how the car handles.
Cobalt test cars are still not easy to come by. I was at an event last week and the guys from AutoWeek and Automobile we're giving me a hard time because we already had a Cobalt SS story on our site. They were claiming that GM told them no Cobalt SS models would be available for testing for several more weeks, yet we ran our road test of the SS in March.
Regardless, we'll get a sedan ASAP. I would like to perform an in-depth evaluation of the volume seller.
Davem, you're right too.
Sure they are! Why let the aftermarket people have all the fun and make all the money?! Same as fake hood scoops or "racing stripes", etc...
It's understandable to some extent though... style works 24/7. A performance difference of a few tenths of a second only means anything when you're at a track.
The manufacturers are basically "leaving money on the table" every time they sell a car and someone goes out and spends another $5,000 to $25,000 on it in the aftermarket (professional athletes and/or famous people will spend $25,000 on their car without blinking twice, just to make it "special").
The extra large wheels that GM now offers on its trucks, not to mention all the accessories offered through Scion, Mini and several other manufacturers, are part of the same goal: make money off those high margin aftermarket parts, just like the aftermarket manufacturers do. Considering the money made in the aftermarket every year, the OEMs would be crazy to not try and grab of piece that pie.
I do like the fact that manufacturer accessories usually:
1. Offer the same warranty as the rest of the car, if purchased when the car is new
2. Can be rolled into the total cost of the car, meaning you may get another $3,000 worth of accessories added, but it only costs you another $40 a month on your car payment.
Of course, paying interest over five years on accessories isn't the wisest financial move, but it does make them more affordable for some buyers. However, OEM accessories are often more expensive than the equivalent items bought directly through aftermarket vendors.
what's next in ghetto-styling? drivers seats moved to
the center of the vehicle so that drivers can "slouch" better?
in other news,, i saw some photos yesterday of a new airless michelin tire. "tweel". pretty wild - have you seen those, Karl? the tire is supported by a plastic 'mesh' or something like that. and there's no sidewall at all.
also Karl surely it has been observed by others before me - that you may have one of the coolest possible jobs on the planet. cheers!
I'm aware of two major music/cultural upheavals in the USA : Rock in the 60's (now going through a minor revival), and Rap in the 90's (and "the thing" today).
How much influence have __both__ of these cultures had on car design?
And specifically on Rap, what is the "ill-est" vehicle out there that satisfies this "street" culture?
And - frankly - how much does the "bling" they feel so important screw the vehicles up "performance"- wise?
Well... I guess the Cadillac Escalade is the "must have" car for the rap music industry. The Chrysler 300 runs a very close second...
I don't think any rap artist wants to be caught dead in a Lexus LX470 or Toyota Camry.
Well I'd have to say that anything Bentley are prized for videos.
Hopefully "def" Karl can enlighten us!
Bentley's and Maybachs are also popular, but I believe there's a certain level or street cred' that comes with the 300 and 'Slade, while those uber-expensive sedans are seen as just statements of being wealthy. It's easy for a wealthy person to prove he's/she's wealthy, but having the cultural awareness to know that blinged-out 300s and 'Slades are the...well, stuff (can't use the real word) says you're "down with the homies," so to speak.
BTW, the SRT-8 makes for a great compromise between bling and performance. You can read my full opinion on the car here: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=105027
but trust me, this is a great performance sedan that just happens to look the rap star part.
I forgot how much fun this car is. We got a GT-five-speed with no options, just because I wanted to see what you really got for "under $25,000," as Ford boasts. Well, Ford has good reason to boast, because you get a damn fine performance coupe for that money, and you still get one-touch up/down windows, cruise control, awesome wheels and a solid sound system. Plus, Ford has nailed the exhaust sound. I don't know how they're going to make the GT500 sound better than this one. I loved how my Bullitt Mustang sounded when I had one, and I heard that the Ford guys wanted to make every GT in 2005 sound as good as the limited production Bullitt sounded in 2001. Mission Accomplished!! Here's our long-term reports on the car so far, if you're interested:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/LongTerm/articleId=104507
For those who want to get into the GTO vs Mustang debate, here's how I see it:
Steering: Advantage Mustang
Handling: Advantage Mustang
Acceleration: Advantage GTO
Exhaust Sound: Advantage Mustang
Styling: Advantage Mustang
Interior Controls: Advantage Mustang
Interior Quality: Too close to call, would need to sit in each one back-to-back
Price: Advantage Mustang
As you can probably guess, I like one much more than the other.
To clue you into how picky I am about manual trannies, I adore Miata's transmission and I simply tolerate the 6 speed on my 330i perf package.
Hope this was the exception to the rule.
That said, I have instrument tested our car and I know I can slam gears quickly without a problem, but I also know there are better transmissions out there (the S2000 quickly comes to mind).
One of the best parts of the new Mustang's shifter is its simple location. The previous model never felt right (the shifter was too far up and away). That alone makes it seem much better to me.
Again, for an honest price of less than $25,000 I think it's a hell of deal (remember, the V8 doesn't just sound good, it makes 300 horsepower and does 0-60 in 5.7 seconds).
1973 Triumph TRX75 Hurricane
This is a rather obscure classic Triumph motorcycle, but for fans of this genre it's a pretty special bike. They only made 1,180 of them, and the bike is kind of like the C5 Corvette in that it was never supposed to happen. But a couple of people at BSA/Triumph in 1969 got "creative" with company funds and developed the bike under the corporate radar (just like the C5). It's also considered the first "factory custom" motorcycle ever made.
You can read all about it on this Web site if you're interested:
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Motorcycle_Designs/Hurricane_Pages/Main%20Hurricane%20pag- - - - - e.html
Scroll down and click on the "How the Triumph Hurricane Came About" link for an interesting read (if you're into classic motorcycles).
I bought the bike from a guy in Canton, Ohio. It has 2,311 miles on it and is in museum quality condition. It arrived Thursday in an Allied Van Lines truck and I rode it home yesterday from work (feeling guilty as each of the 47 miles clicked by, but also rather exhilarated because I've dreamed of this bike since I was 15 years old).
BTW, I'm getting one more vehicle (besides the Odyssey I've promised my wife) in July, and this one is a car built after 2000, so maybe we'll do this again and it will be more interesting for everyone.
Do you know what you're getting?
1- Almost impossible to find a GT, at least here in MI.
2- I believe that the price is increasing by $1,400 or so. I remember reading something like this, can't remember where exactly.
Ford has a hit on their hands. I drove one last July at a preview and it was great. If I did not get my GTO for so little, I would have definitely looked at the Mustang.
I grew up driving classic BSAs and Triumphs because my older brothers were into them. They always made fun of Japanese bikes because:
A. They didn't handle for...well, you know
B. They had things like the frame brake during professional races because they were built so cheap
C. They didn't possess any soul
Most of that changed by the mid-80s, when the quality consistently went up across the all the model lines and they figured out how to combine things like rake and trail to return good handling. Certainly they offered advanced features like electric start and disc brakes before the British bikes, and they rarely leaked fluids while costing less. BUT, those early 1960s-1970s models were made with the cheapest possible grade of metal that would get the job done (and sometimes it still didn't, thus the broken frames during races), they handled like a truck, and often their "advanced" features didn't work any better than the "old" British equivalent. For example, I've heard that while the 1969 Honda CB750 had disc brakes and the 1969 BSA Rocket Three had drums, the BSA would stop as well or better then the Honda.
Now they are some of the most advanced bikes on the planet. But I still consider them pretty soul-less. I've never owned one and probably never will (I could be talked into a Honda RC30 if I found a clean example at a great price).
I've also owned a Ducati 750 Paso and 851 Superbike, and I still love Ducatis, but I'm just not that interested in go that fast anymore (chalk it up to age and a desire to return safely to my family).
I've also never owned a Harley and don't see it happening, though I do like the V-Rod (the engine was co-developed by Porsche, so I gotta love the engineering background on that one).
I just spent three hours yesterday afternoon/evening cleaning and polishing my 1975 Triumph Trident T160 (it was looking pretty shabby compared to the newly-arrived Hurricane) and about halfway through I thought to myself, "You can just see the artisan philosophy and craftsmanship that went into designing and assembling this bike." I honestly feel like there are very few motorcycle brands out there that build anything worthy of a three-hour cleaning/polishing job.
Of course, that's just my opinion.
You and me both. When all said and done I would rather spend my money with an American car company than any other. I grew up in Denver and was pretty red-white-and-blue the first 25 years of my life. The thought of buying a Japanese or European car over an American product is tantamount to treason to many of the people in that part of the country, regardless of the facts about things like build quality, reliability, re-sale value, etc.
But then I moved to L.A. and eventually went to work for Super Street, a magazine that focuses on modified import cars, with a strong emphasis on Japanese cars. After my first spin in an Integra Type-R I was sold. The shifter's feel, the engine's refinement and power (without using forced induction) and the overall build quality of the entire car was undeniable. The American's didn't even offer a similar type of vehicle until the SVT Focus (a car I still like a lot).
One of the other editors on my team also has a GM card that he's earned a bunch of "points" with, but a few months ago he said exactly what you did, "I don't know if there's anything I want to buy from GM, even with the discount I'll get."
Here's hoping the STS and XLR are glimpses of things to come, and that the Solstice and Aura live up to everyone's hopes and expectations -- AND, more importantly, the competition! For those cars to really work, they have to convince people in Los Angeles and Miami to pick a Solstice and Aura over a Miata and Accord.
Oh yes, I've known for over three years, and finally got my order in a week and a half ago...
One thing I've learned about buying cars is "never plan on actually getting them when you think you'll get them."
But I'll definitely make this a discussion topic when the time is right.
Prius is a car for people who hate cars but love gadgets. It's a marvelous piece of engineering though I'll say that for it.
Karl---what have you heard about this mileage thing? Same or ????
I thought that was common knowledge. I'm sure you know the reasons why it's true, or you can think of them when you think about how the hybrid works. But for city commutes or stop and go (or stop and go in the city) it's great. Still not very high numbers, but we usually forget that under those circumstances normal cars do really badly.
As for 60mpg... I think manufacturers and dealers are legally bound to use EPA mpg estimates. Honda and Toyota have been asking for new EPA tests because they realize the bad publicity that this is getting. And apparently the VW Lupo TDI (tiny car, tiny engine) can get 75mpg. We (well, a "we" that doesn't include me) don't want cars that small though. Lots of people say the Golf TDI is too small. In that sense the Prius isn't so bad - good mileage for the size.
Diesels still get higher particulate and NOx emissions though. It's still a debate in environmental science circles over how much worse NOx is than CO2; its effect is a lot stronger than CO2, which is balanced by its lower concentration, but it also lacks the clout of CO2 and that affects political regulations on emissions.
BTW, drove an A3 this weekend. Sweet little car.
PRIUS -- Well, you are too kind to dealers....I hardly think they are plastering 60 MPG in big letters only to satisfy EPA laws....most of the time when they have to conform to laws they use about 4 point type.
NOX--hard to say how bad it is, but I do know that if you try to commit suicide with a diesel car n a closed garage you are going to end up very sick but disappointed.