By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I'll generalize, but to say that GM's interior's fell short of the mark would be an understatement. ALL of my previous GM purchases have been met with more than one pre-mature major component failure. Squeaks/rattles were prevalent well before the warranty period expired.
As previously mentioned, panel gaps, both inside and out, weren't even remotely close to those achieved by even the least expensive Toyota or Honda I've owned. Even Ford and Chrysler have better QC and build, by comparison.
I don't mind that you're a GM fan. But, with GM's market share dropping like a stone in a lake, it's clear the vast majority of the car/truck buying public agree that their vehicles don't offer good value considering all the above. Like everyone else, I was drawn in by rebates, pricing schemes, only to be disappointed later on.
I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want GM to succeed. It's frustrating to see the biggest car company in the world shoot themselves in the foot time and time again. On top of that, GM has the arrogance to state they can't compete. I don't think they listen to their potential customer base and the certainly don't seem to have a good handle on what their competition is doing.
Karl....I'm curious, too. What possessed you to buy a Malibu?
-juice
Now I just need to go get a Ferrari or Porsche...
I'm not crazy about the Malibu's styling, inside or out.
-juice
-juice
Unless the question is why Karl bought the Malibu :-)
At the same time, I think some of 1487's issues DO have some relevance in here (if we can get beyond the blanket condemnation of all reviewers as being anti-GM just because they dare criticize GM).
I mean, to be honest, we ALL have certain biases which affect our assessment of things. That being said, I think what is key is just how do professional reviewers go about identifying these biases and what steps to they take (or attempt to take) to give a 'fair' review of vehicles despite their predispositions. And I think Karl has done this by attempting to describe exactly HOW he conducts a review of a car and the things he looks for.
Karl has done a laudable job of explaining his point of view, but he is also getting attacked for his perspective and having his credibility questioned. That's what I have a problem with. Like I said earlier, I can imagine that this would be a terrific beating for him, and I for one would hope that it would not sour him to the point where this thread died.
If you really want to read a biased auto reviewer, I'd suggest the guy who reviews cars for the Detroit Free Press (think his name is Mark Phelan).
I find that the blanket anti-GM people also should do the same.
>, but he is also getting attacked for his perspective
Did I attack Karl? I think NOT. Don't change things.
I checked for an email address in your profile to continue this. My email is in my profile. Read the description and it's there.
>If you really want to read a biased auto reviewer,
I never said I wanted to read a biased reviewer.
Please don't put words in my mouth or change what I said.
I believe there is an age-dependent viewpoint as to what a good car is.
In my 20s I had Mustangs with heavy duty suspension and wide tires and 289 manual drivelines. What I felt "good" about driving then and affording then is different than in my 30s and 40s.
I believe many people want to read about cars they probably can never own because it's fun and rewarding. I now like to read about cars I might pick next year.
No animosity intended. I'm enjoying the discussion.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
At the end of every year, Entertainment Weekly publishes a list of most of the first-run movies released that year along with grade letter reviews from all the major movie reviewers. My wife will then circle the movies she's watched and the grade she gave the movie. She then looks to see which reviewers most closely matched her grade so that in the future she's know whose review she could most "trust".
Do the same with car reviewers. Find out which ones you like and use their input to help guide you. Read the ones you tend to disagree with (or not) and take their input with a grain of salt.
Don't curse the darkness.....light a candle!
Yes on all counts. First, I really like the 3500 engine overall. It could be more refined and have a more inspired tone, but it offers great torque and overall performance, and it does this while getting good gas mileage (an increasingly important trait these days...). Also, this was the car from our long-term test that had just finished its 12-month tour of duty. That meant we'd already addressed the standard-issue recalls (three, I believe) and I knew the car's history (quite clean in terms of never having an accident, or even getting a wheel curbed).
Yes, I got a "good" deal on it, but not a "great" deal, or certainly not a "freebie." Basically we ran TMV on it, and then took into account the difficulty of selling a domestic sedan in the L.A. market (we've faced it before on previous long-term cars). After taking all that into account I paid $500 less than what we thought was a realistic transaction price in the L.A. market. So again, no screaming deal, just a fair price for me and Edmunds.com. It's primarily my wife's car and effectively replaces the Mini Cooper I sold in January (the wife was driving my old 1970 GTX in the meantime -- what a trooper she is!!). Yes, it's no Mini, but it has more interior space for the kids (not to mention two more doors for easier entry/egress), plus it's faster than the Mini AND is getting better mileage. Of course it isn't as fun to drive, and the interior isn't nearly as nice, but those aren't my wife's primary concerns.
I bought it in June, and for the record it has a steering "clunk" whenever the wheel passes dead center while going from left to right, or vice versa. Also, I was using the air conditioning on Sunday and I had it on full blast, with an outside temperatue of only 83 degrees, and it was barely adequate. I thought it should be freezing me out, but it wasn't. The car has just over 20,000 miles, and at 22,500 I'll take it in for service and ask them to look at both items.
Finally - can you say anything more about the Ford Fusion?
The Fusion looks cool and has more rear seat space than the Mazda 6 (despite being on the same platform). It handles well and it's not as slow as the 220 hp rating on the V6 would make you think. The interior could be better, but it's probably at least average for the category in terms of material quality. The price is going to be very competitive.
Pretty much. If you wanted to say that the road plays a key element in steering feel (along with a great steering system), but the brake system is almost solely responsible for brake feel, I'd go with that.
Bottom line, what you really want is to have solid, confident control over the amount of braking you apply, and a system with good "pedal feel and modulation" provides that, regardless of what it's actually telling you about the road surface.
The start of post 1468 was supposed to mirror the start of post 1462, by member 1487 (are you confused yet?
I was hoping they would appear one after the other, but you guys are so active in posting you messed up my attempt at sarcastic humor/irony! :P
Anyway, I wanted to assure everyone that my post was not meant to sound as "angry" as it might have. It was just supposed to reflect back onto member 1487 how I could twist his opening lines about my "anti GM bias" into a "pro GM bias" regarding his stance. Here are the two opening paragraphs in question so you can see the effect I was going for.
From post 1462 (by member 1487):
Karl:
Your anti GM rants are troubling. Again, I dont think it's right for someone with such strong anti GM sentiment to be writing reviews on Edmunds. How can the consumers get the information they need when people like you refuse to acknowledge any vehicles made by the world's largest automaker.
Now from my post 1468:
1487,
Your inability to acknowledge GM's crappy interiors is troubling. I don't think it's right for someone to continually clutter up my discussion with such obvious pro-GM bias. How can users of this discussion get regular and valuable feedback from me when you keep going into long, drawn-out rants about how GM is being unfairly picked on?
Anyway, the attempt at showing how 1487's position seemed at least as "biased" as mine, by using his own language against him, was lost -- and it made the post sound far "angrier" than I really was. My bad.
Regardless, I can take being called names. And I don't want to limit anyone's ability to state their opinion, no matter what their proclivities are for any given manufacturer (including my own!!).
Thanks
Just one more quick question....how did you finagle getting a Ford GT while she gets a :confuse: :P
A co-worker of mine has a 2004 Malibu LS. She has also had the steering clunk which she had taken care of at about 15,000 miles. She has had enough problems with it that she tried to trade it for a Honda Odyssey but was a little too buried in it to make the move. She wanted a 2000-2002 Odyssey with low miles for less than $19,000 WITH her negative equity.
i have an '04 focus. the interior is pretty cheap, but the car drives well, is pretty fuel efficient, and has tons of features. in 15 months, i have not had any problems, other than squeaky rear brakes, which the dealer took care of. so extending that to the cobalt, maybe it has some features that it more attractive, compared to a comparably priced competitor, and the interior is not such a negative, as in prior models.
Acura RSX Type-S
Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged
Dodge SRT4 ACR
Saturn Ion Red Line
Subaru Impreza WRX
Chevrolet Cobalt SS (4th):
"Instead, the little Chevy apparently aspires to be everyman's cheap-speed coupe, lacking the refinement of the Acura, the brute force of the Dodge, or the passion of the Subaru—three models that have generated actual cults."
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9845&page_number=1
> Forgive me for asking you to repeat things, but in effect, are you saying brake "feel" is
> solely due to the mechanics of the pedal and system and not in any part due to
> "feedback" from the road (as opposed to steering)?
I know you're asking Karl, but I missed out on the earlier discussion, so I would answer:
The steering linkage/mechanism has a direct mechanical connection to the wheels (even the pure electrical and hybrid electrical, from my understanding ) and so it is reasonable that you are going to get vibrations, sense of motion and grip, etc through that mechanical connection.
The brake pedal however only connects to a liquid-filled cylinder (which connects to a liquid filled hose, which connects to some other liquid filled cylinders). I would not expect a brake pedal to provide any more "road feel" than the handle of a bicycle pump.
The only feedback that can come through the brake pedal is what the hydraulics are doing, so to create/modify brake feel, I'm guessing that it's necessary to add hydraulic system "features" ( valves, valve rates, different cylinders, etc. ) but road feedback is nowhere near to the brake system.
The only way *I* know of impending lock up is when the steering wheels stop doing their job at 100% or I start to feel like a pendulum !
As for GM yay .vs. GM nay,
Might it be better to move all that stuff over to the "GM loosing millions in Stock market" thread?
One thing appreciated from this thread is reading how a Journalist approaches DRIVING a car as a sporting machine .vs.. USING a car for reliable transportation. The two don't necessarily mix - or do they ??
But please feel free to keep the discussions going. Hopefully, by the time I get back, there will be a Ford GT waiting for me at the local Ford dealership, but I learned a long time ago to not hold my breath when it comes to the Ford GT.
I'll be posting again in about a week (or maybe earlier if I can).
In previous posts people have said the press and the public all agree that GM makes crap and I need to see the light. If GM has the largest silice of the pie I dont understand how we can say "everyone" agrees. In terms of reviews, KArl needs to get out of the 90s and catch up. He is under the impression that the press is in agreement with his stance that GM=crap but recent reviews in all the major magazines and online publications do not support that. He wants me to tell him where to find a review stating the Cobat seems high quality and I refer him to C&Ds first full road test. I just read a review on Businessweek online that stated the Cobalt was well made. I also told him to refer to R&T's recent review where they said build quality was excellent and the car was far quieter than the RSX. If Karl choses not to read any other reviews and then doubt that anyone had anything positive to say about the Cobalt than I dont know what else I can do. The Vette, the HHR, STS, GTO, CTS, Impala and to a lesser extent the G6 have also been getting good reviews from the press. I dont see how we can say there is a consensus here, what I see is incosistency and Edmunds is usually one to give GM vehicles the worst reviews, sometimes they totally contradict what I read in other locations.
I also cannot get any discussion on Gm vs Ford vs Chrysler interior quality. Karl has stated that GM is clearly in the rear and I don't find that most of the press would agree. The 300 has been praised by the press but the interior has been a point of criticism since day one. I would venture to say that the 300 is probably Chrsylers best interior. Ford interiors are OK but never unique (GT excluded) or exciting. Ford uses the same parts and same dark color scheme in most of its vehicles and while build quality probably isnt an issue, design innovation seems lacking to me.
I beg to differ with the idea that everyone wants GM to succeed. If you are a consumer or reviewer who has spent years trashing GM products and management, and telling everyone that they will never get it right, why would you be interested in GM succeeding. Many people believe GM has had enough chances and should die. Now that many foreign brands build cars in the US people feel there is no point in having GM and Ford around anymore. There is no guilt involved in buying a Toyota or Honda built in the US.
YOu contend that GM has all these resources and it producing crappy, uncompetitive cars. I would like to know your opinion about the GTO, G6, Impala, HHR, Cobalt, STS, CTS, XLR, Equinox and G6. I'm not saying they are class leading, but I want to know why these cars couldnt be considered viable alternatives to the competition. Please dont mention quality because there is no proof that GM's quality is worse than industry average. I also would like to know how recently you owned a GM product and if any amount of time would be sufficient for you to try another product. It seems to me that your past negative experieces have made you forever untrusting of GM and hence you aren't going to heed the merits of their vehicles or the fact that stats show their quality isnt as poor as your individual experiences may have been.
BTW, if Toyota has 13% of the market, the "vast majority" of buyers don't want Toyota products. If the Japenese manufactures as whole have 35% of the market, the majority of customers dont want Japanses products. It's easy to say the majority of buyers dont want one thing or another, what is your point?
:confuse: I guess I may have a little anti GM bias myself. If I drove as many as Karl does, I'm sure it would be huge. For the record my mother -in - law has had an equinox for abot 8 monthes now. No problems as of yet, but the interior has a cheap feel to it and the steering is puzzling to say the least. Not a bad suv for $24
loaded out but I think I would have chosen a stripped Honda pilot for the money. Just my opinion.
FREE KARL FROM THE 1487 PRISON!!!!!!!!!!!!! :P
maybe my posts here are boring too, but at this point i really would like to read (or SEE) jessica simpson's view of whatever car/market issue instead of yours! i think i''ve read your points so many times already that you can give it a rest now. my opinion - i'm tryin to say it respectfully to you sir. so here's some sugar for you: i think your knowledge and analytical skills are plenty good - you could probably write a fine columns for some car mag or web site, especially an all-GM site/mag like GM high performance, or GM insider news. maybe something like that would be more interesting to both you and readers than repeatedly arguing about the same points, same biases, same stuff here. i'd like it if you stuck around here too, but maybe try to repeat yourself less often, and move on to something new when you can't convince whoever of whatever argument. sincere cheers from an 8-time GM owner. 77 bird, 85/89/94/96/00 Z28s, and now an 05 M6 goat - the best & most thrilling GM car i've ever owned - i greatly appreciate the australians/holden for making this car, and Lutz for bringing it here. ok then, i've rambled enough that someone can probably tell me to rent a life now
Why can Chrysler and Honda, year in/year out, continue to get the minivan right and GM can't?
Ford has had it's share of "misses", too. The 500, while nice on the inside and styled at least as well as a Camry or Accord, has a mediocre drivetrain. But, along with the F150, the '06 Explorer looks to be a winner. The Escape has done well. The Mustang is a flat out Grand Slam (capturing 2%-3% of the U.S. market by itself) in a market that GM has all but abandoned.
Chrysler has once again, risen from the dead. They took chances and came out winners with....the 300, the Magnum, the new Jeep Grand Cherokee, Dodge Trucks....even the Charger, which has taken hits for not sticking to it's original legacy, looks to be a hit. Chrysler has done all of this even with their "merger of equals" partner Mercedes taking a huge fall.
An Impala or Cobalt doesn't make me want to go to a Chevy showroom. The G6 isn't going to motivate me to walk into the Pontiac store. The GTO and XLR are nice, but niche products that aren't going to cause even the smallest ripple in GM's bottom line.
All this gets back to my original premise.....GM broke the cardinal rule in business.....they don't listen to what the public wants. They put out product and say "take it or leave it". Well, with the way their marketshare is dropping, apparently the public is leaving GM. Their customer base is eroding as they defect to other brands.
Why wouldn't I want GM to succeed? They are one of the largest employers in the U.S. If they struggle, their employees struggle. That's not a good thing.
But, if you like GM products, give them your dollars. Maybe you'll be that one person who keeps GM from killing off Buick and/or Pontiac.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
What we really have here is a difference of opinion. And while it might be tempting to try and hammer away to change the other guy's mind, remember that you're going to change his opinion to match yours just about the same time that his arguements make you see things his way!
An Edmunds writer may say the impala interior is nice, but that doesn't mean he holds the same opinion. What's so hard to understand about that?
when people make generizations about all GM products when GM makes about 60 products I have to question their objectivity.
Unlike most people, he probably has sat in each model.
If GM has the largest silice of the pie I dont understand how we can say "everyone" agrees.
Mcdonald's sells the most hamburgers. Very few Mickey Dee's consumers would contend that place makes the best burgers. Sales do not = quality.
The Vette, the HHR, STS, GTO, CTS, Impala and to a lesser extent the G6 have also been getting good reviews from the press.
Wow, I haven't seen many good reviews of the HHR, STS, GTO or CTS. The Vette yes, though reviews always give it a break because it's so fast...even though the interior's lacking for a car that pricey. To be honest, i haven't touched an STS or HHR, so I can't comment on those. The others aren't my bag - driven them and hated them.
The next morning, I received an e-mail from Pat stating that I had broken the Rules of the Road.
The hosts really watch these boards like a hawk! That's a good thing; I've seen what happens at other websites: profanity, name-calling, etc.
But it's gratifying to see that many of you are also getting fed up and frustrated with his blatant pro-GM biases. I really appreciate having this opportunity to go one-on-one with Karl; it's too bad some are so blinded by bias that they can't enjoy this thread for what it is.
BTW, that's really funny/ironic that Karl owns a GM car, and a decent one at that, the Chevy Malibu.
Thanks for your cooperation!
We can disagree without being disagreeable is the point.
Hope you're all cooler than it is where I am! :sick:
I'm not anti-GM. I grew up on GM iron, and my fondest memories involve GM cars. My user name comes from a '55 Chevy that my mother owned -- great car!
I recommended to my aunt and uncle that they consider a new Malibu in 2004 when their '94 Cavalier was about to die. My uncle wanted to get another Cavalier, and I recommended the new Malibu over the Cavalier, which was about to be replaced. They did get the Malibu with side airbags, and they have been quite pleased.
Earlier this year, I was seriously considering buying a new Cobalt sedan for my son, who just moved to California for grad school, because the Cobalt (with side airbags) scored an Acceptable rating in the IIHS's tough new side-impact test, the only small car besides the Corolla that did as well. I test drove a base manual transmission model, and was reasonably impressed.
In the end, we gave him our '04 Camry (also with side airbags), because I wanted him to be in a bigger car. Also, I wasn't sure how the Cobalt would do in terms of reliability, since it has no track record. He'll basically be on his own in California, and I didn't want him to be dealing with repair issues if they could be avoided.
On the other hand, I couldn't stand Motor Trend a few years back because of their "Kalifornia Kool" attitude and their laudatory reviews of just about any car (unless it was last year's model). They seem to be better now.
It also seems you should have given the car a more thorough test drive before you purchased it. For example, being a car enthusiast, shouldn't it have been apparent that 17-inch wheels with "rim protector" tires aren't going to provide the smoothest ride?
As for panel gaps, inside or out, these don't really bother me either. But I hate hard plastic on the instrument panel; not so long ago, even econoboxes had nice padded dashes. I guess the need to cut costs and the advent of the airbag eliminated the padding.
I do however, want switches that have a good "feel" to them -- nice smooth action, without binding or feeling like they're going to break. I don't care how a door sounds when it's closed, but I want the door handles to feel substantial, not like they're eventually going to break off in your hand.
You said No RDS on the radio, no day time running lamps, no automatic headlamp control, no auto locking doors, no outside temp display, no air filter, no trip computer, no dead pedal, no up-level sound system offered and the cheapest carpet I've ever seen in a car, period. Again, checking just the brochure would have revealed these, except for the carpeting. Some of these features some people actually HATE, like daytime running lights and auto locking doors (I personally like them). I don't care about RDS, and I could live without a trip computer.
So why did you buy it after being spoiled by the Intrigue?
210delray, I'm complaining about the fact that traction control isn't offered seeing as though the RS-As barely received a M+S rating. They suck in the snow but TC would definitely help. Bottom line, I'd trade a little of the cat like reflexes of my car for some traction control in the winter snow. If you're loved in the press, such things can be easily overlooked. Focus offers traction control and so does the Cobalt. Also, the tires 205/50-17, aren't all that low profile. The stiff bushings are what make the ride less compliant. For example, a Scion tC is smoother over bumps despite it's 215/45 W rated rubber.
What happened to worrying about space, convenience features, quietness, ergonomics and price? At this point in time its pointless to endorse cars strictly on reliability because the quality gap is so small right now. Typically Toyota and Honda's trump card is always "rock solid reliability" even if the overall car is barely average but that shouldnt be the case anymore. If you think about a car like the camry over the last few generations I don't think there was anything class leading about the car. It was quiet, unsporty, reliable and dull and yet that combination was enough to get accolades from the press and be labeled the "benchmark". If you think about a car like the Impala or Taurus, objecitvely speaking they aren't worse than a camry. However, their images can't hold a candle to that of the much loved Camry so they are considered also rans that are good enough for fleet sales only.
What is needed is objective descriptions. While people view cars from their own history, a reviewer must be objective and not succumb to the popular views. One problem is that each age group has its own opinion of what is good for style or interiors or power. Also each age group has a history of believing the opinion planted by populists about a particular car, e.g., Honda always good, Volkswagen always good, GM always bad.
In re an earlier post, it seemed okay for people who don't like GM to post negatives on the discussion, but when someone says GM has good cars among its fleet, that's being a radical. It sounds like political slants by TV media groups during different administrations.
How about just objective reporting.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
a couple of other things. talked my mother into buying an '03 malibu. she's had it over 2 years, and no problems; not one. plus she is thrilled it has keyless entry, a cd player, automatic lights, etc... it also gets great highway gas mileage. epa of 32 is a piece of cake.
i also have an '04 focus w/2.3. the focus has a different cylinder head than the maz3, and the engine is tuned for torque. as far as i am concerned it is incredibly tractable. it just does not lug even with a 5 speed manual. i also, so far, get between 27-32 mpg. the longest trip it ever been on is 40 miles, one way.
i definitely experiment with tire pressures. too low can cost you mileage, too high will cause the tire to spin too easily in wet conditions. guess that's one of my bias's, although i ride on radial's.
>flavors, starbucks has many varieties of coffee. the same thing does not work for
>everyone. people do like vehicle reliability though, no matter what flavor.
Well said.
The car review should satisfy as many types of drivers/owners as possible, then explain why certain groups are gonna love the car or hate it in the reviewer's opinion. This doesn't happen with MT, CD, even CR, the way I read them. Obviously MT and CD are slanted toward car lovers who want power, image, and reviews of cars they could never afford to buy in some cases.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
I think that's part of the problem people have with reviews. They don't satisfy if the review doesn't agree with their opinion... at least that's generally how it seems to happen in "enthusiasts' circles like the forums here.
I tend to look at reviews of anything, from any source, be it magazines, web pages, TV, or whatever, as me asking the question, "What do YOU think?" just trying to get opinions.
If I walked up to 10 of the users from here and asked what they thought of the new 2006 PF Flyer Road Warrior after performing their own road test, I'd no doubt get several different reviews. What I'm really looking for is a sounding board to bounce MY thoughts and impressions about the vehicle off of. I might disregard everything a review has to say because I see those features in a different light. That doesn't make that review wrong, or biased, or invalid. The reviewer called it the way he saw it. The same applies to a review I might agree with most of.
It's not a case of right or wrong, and I'm always kind of amazed that so many people DO see it as a case where someone is "wrong" or "biased" simply because they don't agree with ME.
What you the reviewer think of my choice of vehicle really doesn't matter in the end. The only review that counts, or makes me part with my cash, is the one in MY head... and it's probably made up of opinions from many sources!