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2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
2005 Economy Sedan Comparison Test (Inside Line)
Steve, Host
But wait! They reviewed the Citroen C4! I love that car!
Review more (practical economy family) cars that we can't have! More! More! More!
(note: Citroen's always been known for not-sporty, stylish, comfortable, and technological-showcase cars. Glad to hear they're still at it. You guys should see their idea of a luxury car!)
Look back at the 2003 comparison. The Corolla was all new for that model year and it finished a disappointing fifth. Fifth out of eight is pathetic for a car new for that year. The Sentra, new for 2000 beat it as well as the Protege from 1999 and Civic from 2001.
So, the Corolla would definitely have finished behind the sporty Mazda 3, refined Civic, value Spectra, fun Focus, and stylish Elantra.
The problem is that Corolla doesn't really have a catch the way the other cars do. Maybe it's quiet and luxurious, but it's kinda expensive too.
It's weird though. I have a tall friend who felt more comfortable in the Corolla than the Civic and a few other cars he tried. It had higher rated mileage and he got a better price on an "S" than he was going to get on a Civic or Mazda3. More power than the Civic, better auto tranny (to him). So I've always thought the current Corolla was pretty good.
I guess that's why they tell you to test drive cars, whatever the magazines say.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I never denied that a firm, progressive, proper-weighted brake pedal was [highly] desirable. What I was trying to argue is that there is no brake feedback other than ABS. There is feel, of course. Everything has a feel.
Seems to me that cars these days have increasing amounts of brake pedal dead travel. Am I going crazy? I have driven a number of late model cars - 04 GTO, 02 Maxima SE, 02 Camry LE, 01 Taurus - and they all had a disturbing amount of dead travel before actual brake engagement. Is this some queer safety thing? Did I miss something? Or are all three of these vehicles just not representative of the rest of the industry? Granted, none of them are really supposed to have class-leading brakes, but the travel seemed quite excessive before the car was slowing down.
Just look at the direction of motion and forces in a brake system. The brake rotor spins along one axis, and the brake pads are clamped against either side of the rotor on an axis that is orthagonal (90°). There is no way for the rotor, either in speeding up or slowing down rotation, to transmit any force along the brake axis. Sure, the rotor might have some amount of "squeeze" but good luck measuring it, even with a micrometer! Even conceding THAT point, that amount of "squeeze" has NOTHING to do with the coefficient of friction of the tire's contact patch! Another source of isolation! Even my muscle memory argument falls down here, as it will take less brake pressure (thus leg pressure) to generate a tire lockup on dry pavement, wet pavement, dirt, snow, etc.
Add it up, and there is no feedback from the road, through the brake pedal.
Just FYI, the brake fluid that the Aussies put in the GTO is crud. Many owners are changing it out with Valvoline synthetic and reporting much firmer brake feel/less fade...
--Robert
Don't worry, I got the reference. I scrolled back up to make sure I wasn't crazy, though.
Hey, look, backup! Thank you...
"The Hyundai Elantra has a stylishness to it that stands out, but I don't care for the sporty-looking interior".
Well, Editor Brian Moody seems to think the Elantra is stylish, and I concur. I rate the cars like this in descending order in terms of exterior styling. Mazda3, Focus, Elantra, Forenza, Spectra, Civic, Cobalt. The Elantra's interior isn't that great, but the outside is.
Technically, that's true. However,
friction force = coefficient of friction X normal force
The more you squeeze, the higher the normal force, and therefore the higher the friction force.
Sorry for flipping into physics mode... it's just something I like. In the end it's just words; I didn't know "feedback" and "feel" were any different. I agree that the brakes don't tell you anything about the road itself.
My main point was to show that you can't tell impending lockup through the brake pedal. I guess technically there is feedback in brakes. That the pedal firms up when you generate more pressure at the master cylinder is feedback, I suppose. But as far as a connection between the road (contact patch) and the brake pedal - not a chance in hell (again, other than detecting ABS activity). That was my only real point.
In some cars (like my mom's CR-V) it doesn't firm up, so I can't tell how much harder I can brake. In my Sentra it always stiffens up before the car starts to skid, so I associate the stiffening up with impending lockup.
That way perhaps the Camaro Legend ("better than anything out there today") can be proven true or false.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Sorry for the lengthy MIA. I was in Sweden all last week experiencing the "Volvo Overseas Delivery Program" (and it was very cool, BTW).
I started to try and catch up, but you guys have been posting like crazy!! Which is great!!
However, I'm still digging out from being gone (you know -- out of the office for a week means work twice as hard the week before and after...).
A couple of quick updates:
1. I picked up my Ford GT a few hours ago. Yes, I'm on cloud nine. After a three-and-a-half year wait it was truly surreal to actually be driving it away from the dealership. More to come on this topic for sure!
2. We're going to Laguna Seca next week to do our Ford GT versus Gran Turismo 4 story, where we run the GT, plus a Mustang, Evo, RX-8 and Neon SRT-4 around the track, and then play GT4 in the infield and compare times, driving characteristics, etc. Expect lots of video on this one. And no, I'm not using my Ford GT for the story; Ford is supplying their West Coast press car. But, I am driving mine up to Laguna to help break it in. :shades:
3. Once again, impressed with the posting activity in here. I glanced through it quickly and saw lots of great stuff, but don't expect me to answer every question from the last 150 posts. It just can't happen. I will promise to at least read every one of them.
Talk to you all soon. The GT is calling me from the parking garage for my first official commute home up PCH -- and who am I to not listen?
Cheers!!
Yes, well that's why in my personal ratings I put it behind the Focus and Mazda3. It looks way better than the rest though. Editor Brian Moody feels the same way apparently.
Anyway, Karl, you were in Sweden? What is the Volvo Overseas Delivery Progam and will Inside Line be doing a story on it?
And while you were in Sweden, did you manage to see a Koenigsegg CC? Thats a really cool supercar.
Karl - ever played Forza Motorsport on Xbox? You can race on the Laguna Seca in the game
If you can, I'd appreciate it if you could respond to post #1538, on future road tests.
I’ll bet you are excited!
Best of luck – and do please post pics and impressions as you can.
- Ray
Who would NOT want to leave a GT in any parking garage . .
But now with the newer tires and having had ABS for 12 years or so I don't feel that any more.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Right except there is a HUGE range of coefficients of friction for the tires. From seasoned pavement to ice. Do you really think the pedal is going to firm up the same way, right before lockup, on ALL of these surfaces?
I want to hear about the Ford GT!
Karl?
KARL?
He's out driving the GT again... :P
-juice
no
speaking of ford gt's, i have a ford gt too. a t shirt, keychain(for my focus keys), and one on my ford clock too. :P
I've almost extricated myself from the swamp. Tomorrow's schedule doesn't look too scary, so I should have time to actually post some comments.
After 100 miles in the Ford GT I've decided two things:
1. Yes, it's as easy to drive as I remember from my brief time in press cars
2. Yes, it gets as much attention as I remember from my brief time in press cars
Obviously it's easy to get used to item 1, but item 2 will be a bit more challenging for me. Despite buying a GT you have to believe me when I say that I'm not into grabbing attention. When I had a Ducati in Denver in the early 1990's that thing got all sorts of attention because a bright red, Italian motorcycle was pretty exotic for Denver back then (this was when Ducati wasn't nearly as well known in the U.S., especially when you got away from either coast).
I got pretty good at being oblivious to other people's reactions when riding the Ducati, and not because I'm a snob or anything but because I almost felt like there was an assumption that went with riding that bike that I didn't want to answer to. Kind of like the whole "Oh, he drives a Porsche/BMW/Ferrari, so he must be a rich A-hole" thing. It didn't matter that I rode the Ducati because I loved the philosophy behind it (hand-build Italian motorcycle with desmodronic valve operation, awesome mid-range torque from a 90-degree V-twin, and a company with a cool race history).
I'm not sure what message a Ford GT sends, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't match with my situation -- "Serious automotive enthusiast with some lucky financial breaks who was able to buy his ultimate dream car." I doubt that's what people think when they see the Ford GT.
Of course, I'm being a whiny butt. I get to drive a Ford GT, dammit! At the end of the day am I going to get caught up in "How that makes me look to other people?"
NOT!!!
Well - too bad that's just a FEW too many letters for a personalized plate in CA . . .
See post # 1109 . .
(Picky, picky, I know).
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
The garage would be the only place to park!
"What is behind you is not important"... (he says, as he pulls the rear-view mirror off the windshield of the Ferrari).
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as a GM/camaro guy i must feign disinterest in your omologato-challenged GT, and pretend that ford does not own volvo when i ask: did you take delivery of an XC90 in sweden? i'd be interested to read about that some time... cheers !
"needs a cigarette lighter"... (Jake says, as he tosses it out the window).
(i bet the ford GT doesn't have a cig lighter!)
A good question.
Normally we drive a vehicle at a press event and do a First Drive, then we get one for a week (usually a few weeks or months later) and do a full test.
BUT, sometimes we attend a First Drive event and they give us a "drive-away," meaning they let us take a car directly from the press event and keep it for a week. In this case, we'll sometimes do both a First Drive and a Full Test (see the recent Lexus IS stories for an example), and sometimes we just skip right to the full test. I believe we skipped right to the full test on the HHR, because we got a drive-away from the event. There was no press event for the Lincoln Mark LT (at least, none that we attended). I can't remember what happened with the Jetta, but I think we just got the car for a week and skipped the press event altogether.
Anyway, there are several new models to be released in the next 6 months. I am eagerly anticipating these models, and was wondering when a road test would be done.
Please see comments below for specifics on each model you mentioned:
First Drives
Buick Lucerne -- still waiting for first drive event -- should happen soon
Cadillac DTS -- drove it at a sort of "mini" First Drive event that wasn't worth First Drive coverage (it was like a half-day event); the car isn't redesigned, so we'll probably get one for a week and do a "Follow-Up Test" in the near future
Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan -- September 1 embargo, story is "in the can" and ready to post next Thursday
Lincoln Zephyr -- no press event yet; should happen soon
Pontiac Torrent -- just posted, probably after you wrote this
Jeep Commander -- press event coming in the next few months, I believe
Full Tests
Chevrolet Impala -- Need to schedule a test car, should happen soon
Volkswagen Passat -- we were just discussing this; never heard about a press event from Volkswagen, but they are on dealer lots now. We'll get one soon.
Dodge Charger -- Need to schedule, should happen soon (we do, btw, have a First Drive of the SRT-8 version coming in the next week
Hummer H3 -- Need to schedule, should happen soon
Hyundai Sonata -- Did a comparison test against Accord and Camry (it won!) so we won't be worrying about a full test for awhile
BMW M6 -- Need to schedule, should happen soon
Follow-Ups
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 -- First Drive will post on September 1
XLR-V/STS-V -- Still haven't had a press event for these
BMW M5 -- Just got this invite; I think it happens in the next month
A couple background points -- this time of year is always tricky because there are a bunch of new models being introduced, which means a bunch of press events. That cuts our resources for doing full tests. As an example, there are something like five embargos for September 1 (Fusion, Z06, Civic, and at least two more I can't remember). We've got tests for all of them, so the toughest part is making sure they don't trample each other by all going "live" on the same day (at which point at least a few would likely get lost in the shuffle and be missed by our readers). We may spread some of these out over the course of a few days to keep that from happening, but the bottom line is that right now we are doing more press events and less Full Tests/Follow-Up tests simply because of the manpower issues and the time of year (there were four press events this week alone, leaving no one to do instrumented testing, stereo evals and second opinions for full tests).
Thanks for asking. Hope this helps.
We have two facilities. One is an old air strip on the coast of Southern California, the other is the parking lot outside a race track about 60 miles inland -- also in Southern California.
At both facilities we have mapped out the slalom and skidpad locations and spray painted the points where cones are to be placed to ensure consistency in our timing tests. Our test equipment lets us pretty much do braking and acceleration runs wherever we want...as long as there is enough room (which there is at both facilities).
We use a combination of radar guns, GPS equipment and timing lights. We've been wanting to set up a section of the site where people can see the specific processes, but it hasn't happened yet (too many cars to test, versus having enough time to show you how we test :P ).
Give that man a cigar!!
Or better yet, a Mazda 3!!!
Need another cigar here!
Good for you. If more Americans were like you, GM wouldn't be losing market share. But they aren't, and GM is. You don't care about GM losing market share? Well, I do, but only because I know they have the resources to build class-leading cars, and I know a lot of Americans are employed by them and would like to see them do it (plus there are even a few Americans, like me, who would love to have a truly compelling reason to buy a GM car and help support American business). But, I'm not going to gloss over their deficiencies just to save jobs or help the economy. In the end, capitalism is about rewarding the "best" and forcing the others to catch up...or go out of business. Ultimately, it's up to GM (not the "biased" reviewers).
Hey, when was the last time the Camry's platform was new, hmmm... I think '92? Anybody?
And yet it still has better ride quality and lower NVH than the brand new Malibu (and just to be crystal clear on my ability to make this statement -- I'm a 2004 Malibu owner).
By comparison event, I mean where some sponsoring party (manufacturer, dealer group, etc.) sets up an actual comparison between cars and lets people drive them.
Or do manufacturers, sponsors, etc. simply trot several of a specific new model to show the press the new features/performance, etc.?
Wrt general public opportunities, I know of only one such event; GM's travelling autoshow, where they pitch their lineup against a limited number of competitors from USA and overseas, and let folks drive them back to back (but at low, "safe" speeds save for the Corvette full throttle acceleration run. Significant omissions; nearly all of Audi's and Chrysler's lineups. If Karl has ever attended this, it would be interesting to hear his opinions of it.
It's actually pretty rare for me to attend a competitive event that's not set up by Edmunds. Sometimes the OEs will actually have competitive models at a press introduction, but that's rare -- and I think it often backfires. I attended the G20 intro back in 1998 and at it they had competitive models, including the then new A4. I had never driven the A4 or the G20 at that time (I wasn't working at Edmunds yet) and I remember thinking "Wow, the A4 pretty much trounces the G20. I can't believe Infiniti is letting us drive it." I find it interesting that GM won't allow Chrysler or Audi products at their traveling road show. Hmmm....
Great analysis. As some have noted the Corolla ain't exactly the most interesting car in the world. They sell a ton because of its quality and reliability, but there's no other "hook" to the car, while the Mazda 3 (fun to drive), Focus (also fun to drive), Spectra (great value) and even Civic (relatively fun to drive, plus very refined and Corolla-like reliability reputation) all have a hook.
Not saying the Corolla is a bad car, but other cars are essentially as good in terms of quality/reliability, plus they have some personality.
And while you were in Sweden, did you manage to see a Koenigsegg CC? Thats a really cool supercar. No, but I've heard of it. I was basically following Volvo's itinerary, so no time for extra-curricular fun.
Karl - ever played Forza Motorsport on Xbox? You can race on the Laguna Seca in the game. I haven't, which is ironic because I'm more of an Xbox guy than a Playstation guy, but I bought a Playstation and GT4 a few months ago to prep for this story. I have a friend who is also an Xboxer. She's played Forza and says it awesome.