Th GXP isnt that different grom the GTP and C&D ripped the GTP after originally praising in during a first drive article. C&D is famous for those types of inconsistencies when reviewing GM vehicles. You would think they are reviewing a completely different vehicle. The did the same thing with the G6. Give me a break. OF course, I'm sure you are one of those who feels that automotive media publications are always right no matter what. IF you believe that adding a V8 and bigger wheels is enough to completely transform the sub-par GTP to a winner than I don't know what else to say.
At this point in time I think most cars have logical switchgear. I dont think this is a trait monopolized by Honda. Rarely have I been in a recent model car where I cant figure out the controls in two minutes or less. Of course luxury cars and exotics would be the exception to this rule, but you talk about the civic's ergonomics as if the Civic is layed out more logically than any other small car. Just by virtue of the fact that small cars dont have a lot features it's usually easy to operate all their controls.
Ergomics and material quality are one thing, but what about design? Do you like the new civic's interior? To me it is horrible looking and too much of a departure from the old car. The best things about the civic are its mileage and powerful sound systems.
as for center mounted gauges, I have seen lot of criticism of the Ions gauges, but none of the Echo or Prius. Wonder why that would be.
Here's my bold prediction as to what will happen with reviews of future GM products (STS-V excluded), from now on every GM product reviewed is going to be a dissapointment after the Solstice. Everyone is going to say they thought GM was on the right track with the Soltice but Lutz was only able to work his magic once. Targets of this type of criticsm are likely to be the Lucerne, DTS (although I have read lots of positive reviews thus far) and the GM trucks.
I am interested in seeing Edmunds review of Solstice as well, I am sure they found some issue that others didn't. I bet some pieces of the interior came apart during their drive. Every review I have seen has been very positive thus far.
What about Edmunds getting involved in tuning cars? I believe Scott Oldham came from Sport Compact magazine? Maybe he could head up the project. Just small mods such as tires, suspensions.... and then report and compare ride and performance results. Relatively inexpensive upgrades that everyday people could do to improve performance of their car.
Speed magazine has a car that they make modifications to in each issue. So far they have made mods to a RSX and a Legacy.
Maybe time/financial constraints do not make this feasible, but, Edmunds readers just might be interested.
Not all newspapers can afford to have their own reviewers. Edmunds could syndicate their reviews after they have posted on line. After all not everyone reads reviews on line - I have heard some people still read newspapers.
Edmunds already has one of its writers (?) giving radio talk show interviews on a regular basis. I hear it occasionally on a radio station I listen to sometimes in the mornings. It's good publicity. He doesn't give anything cutting edge or outrageous but it's better than CR's TV clips some stations used for a while for consumer information instead of having their local talking head do it. It's aimed right at a low level of car literacy which is probably the audience for the talk show.
A good car reviewer could be syndicated. He/she would have to realistic about what different people want in a car. They would need to be able to review a Lucerne compared to a 3-year old LeSabre/PA and review a Cobalt vs a Civic. Many reviewers in print already show a bias, based on car preference due to age, driving style, or income level. What I would have wanted in a car in my 30s was different than 40s and different than now.
AAA magazine has reviewer of cars who's low key but they are biased--he's actually a syndicated writer from a western city newspaper. Our local weekly newspaper group has reviews that are ridiculous. They pick up different ones from wire services or somewhere. I could do better. Many read like they came from the corporate fax machines of certain companies--except for GM and Ford, of which they're usually critical.
That's where Oldham went? To here? Woah! Ok yeah, it's in the article about the editors. It doesn't mention the Starion he bought in his last Sport Compact Car editorial, maybe he blew it up.
Anyway, as much I like seeing car tuning, I wouldn't want Edmunds to do it if it meant diluting the rest of the site.
I'd rather see more work in the used car field; I think that would be relevant to many more Edmunds users. That's one thing I like about Canadian Driver - they review used cars once they're already used. And they're (a little) less afraid of being negative in their used car reviews, so they're actually pretty useful.
is way to "happy" in their new car reviews. Never very critical. It is almost like they are afraid to say anything negative. Oh well, I still read their reviews daily.
I just got back from driving the Solstice. I took it on the exact same road I drove the new Miata on last week (a tight canyon road that favors nimbleness over power). I meant to hook up with Mulholland and then the 101 highway and return home relatively quickly, but I ended up taking Mulholland all the way to PCH (a good sign ).
First I'll get the bad things out of the way: 1. There is no way to adjust the seat back angle with the door closed. There's just no room between the door and the side of the seat bottom when the driver's door is shut (it's like the SSR all over again). Thankfully, only seat back angle is over there. Fore/aft adjustment is via a lever below the front of the seat. 2. The angle of the head unit (in the center stack) means there is a lot of glare and the display washes out in daylight. They should have either provided some sort of shroud for the head unit, or at least not had it angled upward toward the sky (admittedly, this aids in helping the driver see it, but it also causes wash out with the top down). That said, the display itself is big and bright, so even with the wash-out effect I could still read it fine most of the time. 3. Even with the wheel tilted all the way up it was still slightly blocking the top of the gauges for me. I'm six feet tall, and I tend to sit pretty upright, so for shorter or "less upright" people this won't be an issue. And even with me it was very slight. 4. The other editor who drove it down from Portland said the center tunnel/armrest literally wore his elbow raw due to the hard plastic/rough texture on the center tunnel/armrest. He's shorter than me, so his elbow was probably hitting the center tunnel harder than mine (or at least at a different angle). I didn't have a problem, but I only drove it 60 miles (and I can see how the texture would cause this problem if you did drive a long distance with your arm on it while supporting your upper body weight). 5. I wish it had more low-end torque. There's not a lot happening below 4,000 rpm, which is unfortunate because the chassis/suspension are begging for more power/torque.
Now the good stuff: 1. While it doesn't have the communication/feedback levels of the Miata, it's still very fun to drive on twisty roads. You are going to hear a lot of "little Corvette" comments regarding the Solstice, and they are all correct. The car doesn't instantly inspire you to toss it around in corners (like the Miata does), but once you start tossing it you realize the chassis is very capable and the steering is fully capable (if not truly inspiring). Very Corvette-like indeed. 2. The seats are both comfortable and supportive when driving it hard. AND -- the material is pretty good, too (especially considering the car's MSRP). 3. While the angle of the head unit causes some wash out, the sound system rocks, and with the XM satellite (like our test car had) there's plenty of great music to choose from. Lots of pre-set station slots for memorizing FM, AM and XM, and effective steering wheel-mounted controls for the system, too. Has auto volume for top-down driving (I don't like this feature and set it to "off," but some people do like it, and it has several levels it can be set at). 4. Major stick from the tires. You have to go really fast to make it slide, and then it goes into understeer versus any kind of scary snappiness. This raises the other issue already mentioned, which is the lack of engine torque. If there was more twist to break the rear-end loose you could really fling and drift this car around. As is, you have to spin the engine hard and punch it at just the right moment...and then you get a little bit of rear-end rotation. Very innocuous, meaning no one is going to hurt themselves in this car, but oh -- if only the drivetrain could cash the checks this car's chassis is writing... Rumor has it that by next year a supercharged version will be out. That should be one hell of a car.
Bottom line, GM is going to sell a ton of these, and they should. It looks cool (inside and out), it's fun to drive, comfortable, and the price is going to make any qualms about interior quality or chassis feedback fall by the way side -- neither issue is going to be a deal-breaker for most potential buyers.
As far as Miata comparisons go, I'll slightly revise what the new C&D said. They basically said that it's a better overall car than the Miata, even if the Miata has the pure "backroad thrasher" advantage. I'd put it this way: If you can give up 15 percent of the Miata's purity and spirit, you'll get back 30 percent in all-around functionality. It rides better than the Miata, feels roomier and more comfortable inside, and I personally like the looks better (so does everyone else, judging by the reactions I was getting).
Besides, people who buy Miatas are like people who buys Nissan Xterras. About 10 percent of them actually utilize all 100 percent of both cars' abilities. The other 90 percent just want the image that goes with them, and would happily trade some of those models' abilities for more comfort and daily live-ability.
The Solstice offers that increase in daily live-ability -- and producing a car that's better for 90 percent of the current Miata crowd is not a bad place to be.
Congratulations Mr. Lutz, and GM.
We have a slot with a Pontiac dealer who expects our Solstice to be built in the next six weeks. Look for a long-term introduction shortly after we get it. And watch for our Miata vs Solstice comparison test coming in the next two weeks.
I knew I was right - Pontiac really handed the media some great gifts;)
I saw quite a few company cars on the road last month, but since they have disappeared. I am waiting to for my local dealer to get one - very curious if I will fit comfortably being 6'4".
I really wish GM and Lutz could figure out a way to build a small 4-dr sedan on this chassis. Maybe it would generate the same excitement that Chrysler has attained with the 300/Magnum/Charger. It could even be a formidable competitor for the BMW 1-series.
Karl,you had a very intersting comment about seating. I,too,am six feet,and i also like a very upright position behind the wheel. I'm amazed at just how many cars,even with the steering wheel at full upward tilt,still block the top of the instruments.
I'm also surprised how often the upper windshield band is too intrusively in the top of my line of sight. It's made me not consider some cars in the past...
Though you are welcome to your opinion regarding the GXP, I would like to suggest a clarification of these 2 statements in your post # 1763: “Th GXP isnt that different grom the GTP” and “adding a V8 and bigger wheels is enough”.
In addition to the (all aluminum and even slightly lighter than the S/C V6, with over +40HP + TQ) 5.3L V8 and larger wheels, the GXP upgrade over the GTP also includes:
2 – Bilstein gas-charged dampers and higher rate springs.
2.1 – Stiffer rear stabilizer bar.
3 – Significant brake upgrade over CompG – even well beyond the (obvious) larger, cross-drilled rotors and red painted calipers.
One thing that impressed me (a lot) about the GXP upgrade was that Pontiac here took a total ‘systems’ approach to the upgrade. Meaning: instead of just more HP / TQ and bigger wheels / tires, they addressed every other dynamic aspect as well. In test driving 3 GTP CompGs and 3 GXPs (before a quick shake down run in the GXP that I finally bought) I would respectfully suggest that all of these changes do substantially alter the character of the car - as well as considerably improving the raw test numbers achieved. (0 – 60: 5.7 vs. 6.6 and Quarter Mile: 14.3 @ 98 vs 15.0 @ 93 are differences that even my un-calibrated “butt dyno” can easily feel.)
I have yet to see a car read 0 for coasting MPG. That's odd. The MPG with the engine running would never be infinity. Though when you shut it off, I guess that's infinity.
On the lash thing - I bet the GTO also has less drivetrain lash, too.
I had an Audi TT that would show 0 mpg when coasting if I had it in gear.
Hmm, I think I know what this is. Many engines have a function called Deceleration Fuel Cutout mode (at least this is what we call it in the GM engine world) whereby the injectors completely close during coasting (in gear). This was done for emissions reasons, as engines don't burn overrun mixtures very well (very very light load/high vacuum). During the time of no fuel flow, the fuel injectors' pulse widths are zero (measured in milliseconds, or ms), which could cause that MPG indicator anomaly. What I don't understand is why they couldn't add a simple line to the code that said something like "when zero is the calculated instantaneous mpg, substitute 99/200/whatever."
The reason it displays fine in neutral is because the engine won't go into this mode when there is no load on the engine, so it just idles normally. If it did, the engine would stall almost immediately.
I have aspirations to become a powertrain engineer (prefer GM) but so far all I have managed is DoD Contractor.
I re-read my post and I just wanted to clarify that PCMs use fuel injector pulse width as a primary variable in the calculation of fuel economy. That's why it's relevant.
I agree, very interesting. Does this mean the engine still "runs" when the car is coasting (in gear) down a hill? I guess it has to, since the tach still shows rpms. But what makes it run when there's no fuel flow?
BTW, my Camry indicates 99.9 mpg in this condition.
I agree, very interesting. Does this mean the engine still "runs" when the car is coasting (in gear) down a hill?
It doesn't "run" so much as "continue to rotate."
But what makes it run when there's no fuel flow?
A torque connection between the crankshaft and the wheels. In this condition, the engine is what's called "overrun" (I used the term previously). In other words, the car is pulling the engine, rather than vice versa.
In a manual transmission car, this torque connection would be an engaged clutch. In an automatic, it would either be a locked torque converter clutch or just a hydraulic coupling (unlocked torque converter clutch). You would get the same effect if you simply turned the key off, although I cannot speak for electronically controlled transmissions. Something funky might happen in that case.
BTW, my Camry indicates 99.9 mpg in this condition.
Obviously Toyota got around this little "bug." Try coasting in 3rd gear at 65mph and see what it says. Ideally, you'll want a nice 5 second downhill run.
I agree that the GXP was significantly upgraded, but my point was that C&D is very incosistent. The GXP isnt different enough from the GTP to completely change directions and praise the car. AS I said earlier, when they first drove the '04 GTP they were very positive, when they gave it a road test they were very cynical and unimpressed and now with the GXP they seem to be endorsing the car to some extent. I dont have a problem with the GXP, but the GTP wasn't as bad as they made it out to be. IN fact the braking and handling numbersp of the GTp are very close to that of the GXP. I am glad they cleared up the torque steer issue though. People love to say it makes no sense to have a powerful FWD car but what they should say is "it makes no sense for imports to put more than 240hp through the front wheels". I havent read about much torque steer in the Avalon, but the Maxima, TL and Altima all seem to have torque steer issues with far less torque than the GXP.
Thanks for the response. The thought did cross my mind that the wheels would be pulling the engine, at least with a manual transmission, but I forgot about lockup torque converters in automatic trannies. And you say the hydraulic coupling in an unlocked torque converter would still do the trick. Very interesting!
Hmm, 65 mph coasting downhill in 3rd gear? I don't think there are any hills nearby that are straight and steep enough for me to try that. Maybe the next time I go through the mountains of West Virginia. (Could be a while with gas prices as high as they are now!)
From what I've heard the Solstice has no trunk space when the top is down. Additionally, I've heard you have to get out of the Solstice to handle the top.
Gas mileage...? I've heard high teens/low 20s with a Solstice.
I'm consdering replacing my 330i with a Solstice/S2000/Miata, so these things make a great deal of difference for me.
The Solstice still has trunk space even with the top down. From what I understand it's enough room for a couple of pieces of soft luggage but if you're planning a weekend trip for two, you might want to pack light.
Yes, the driver must exist the vehicle to raise the cover and stow the top. The rear cover can't be raised sitting in the driver's seat.
Don't have any idea about real-world mileage. The EPA rates it at 20/28. I think the Miata is rated at 25/30.
In their tests the Miata got 8mpg better mileage. Not that mpg is a priority in a roadster, but that's a big difference that affects things like range.
I guess that gives new meaning to the expression 'pack light'.
The Mazda website lists the MX5 maximum cargo capactiy at 5.4 cf. It appears as though the top doesn't fold down into the trunk space so that 5.4 cf should be available even with the top down. Can anyone confirm if the MX5 top folds into the trunk space or not?
Anyway, I read the Fusion, Corvette Z06, Jeep Commander reviews and I'd say the imports better watch out! Not only these three, there seem to be several exicting vehicles with promising futures coming from the Big3.
I'm looking forward to readind the Pontiac Solstice review.
When does the Frankfurt Auto Show start? I want to see the new 63 AMGs.
I did drive the GTP at the autoshow in motion. Like I said, I don't have a problem with either car. My problem is with C&D because they flip flop John Kerry style on many cars, most of with are manufactured by GM. I am always one to root for the grand prix because performance and functionality wise it's a good sedan that has never been given a chance by the automotive press.
I havent seen any criticism of the Fusion yet other than it's sub par tranny. The press seems to be giving this car a free pass and I keep reading stuff like "finally a domestic car built to compete with the imports". That's a bit of hyperbole. I guess cars like the Malibu, Impala, LAcrosse, etc. arent good enough to be compared to Camcord but the fusion is good enough. If the Fusion's all black interior came inside of a chevy or pontiac I doubt the reception would be so warm.
It's nice to see that there are fewer bland cars coming out this season. The Solstice, Fusion, and Civic are all pretty boldly styled - they'll make some enemies but you know what they say about trying to please everybody. Will this be a general trend now?
I think it will; automakers are realizing that only a few nameplates - Camry, Accord, Impala, a few others - have the strength to sell without strong design. And even those are becoming more boldly styled, albeit conservatively. Even the new Grand Vitara, Rav4 and Echo (hatch) are looking good. Good times are ahead.
The Fusion's hands down the coolest midsized sedan, very suddenly. It's kind of sad for Mazda though; they made the great chassis and a great car, but the Fusion will blow it out of the water by being a Ford.
The Solstice has been discussed enough. I'll just throw in that one of the reasons the MR2 failed against the Miata was its lack of trunk space. I'm sure that wasn't the big reason, but it was certainly a handicap (some people buy cheap roadsters as their primary car). rorr, the Miata's top folds down ahead of the trunk. No tonneau cover either.
While I'm not usually too excited about hybrids, the new Civic will be important, and the timing is good. If it beats the Prius in real-life mileage, and the general public decides they like the look, the Civic hybrid will finally come out of the shadows.
And yes, I know the Miata is supposed to do mid- to high-6s. I don't know what to tell you. I got excellent launches and solid upshifts. Our test car had only 300 miles on it, which made me feel bad about hammering the engine, but I did hammer it and couldn't do better than a 7.5. Maybe it gets quicker when it's fully broken in. Of course those numbers are uncorrected, but we were at our coastal test site, so I don't see the numbers going down much.
Braking, 60-to-0 Miata -- 117 (but, after four runs it was up to 124) Solstice -- 121 (after four runs it was also at 124, but that's less than half the fade between first and final run compared to the Miata)
Slalom Miata -- 6.39 seconds (don't know exact MPH it translates to, but should be around 67) Solstice -- 6.36 seconds (basically it's a tie, but the Solstice was slightly quicker through the 600-foot slalom)
A few comments to go with this: 1. When I drove the Solstice on Sunday it was late afternoon, and the radio display wash-out situation was minimal, but noticeable. I've since driven it mid-day with the top down, and I couldn't read the display at all. This is probably the biggest design screw-up on the car (at least it still sounds really good) 2. In the slalom the Miata was definitely more responsive, but it also wanted to rotate more quickly and easily. I could catch it, but it did want to rotate. The Solstice also wanted to rotate, but it had to be going faster, and it was even easier to catch. Credit the monster tire/wheel combo that gives it more ultiamate stick than the Miata.
Not really saying one design is better than the other, because some roadster drivers really want their car to rotate quickly, but it does make for greater potential tragedy -- unless you're a good enough driver to really utilize the quick oversteer.
As for trunk space, the Solstice is pretty useless. There's a huge "box" in the center of the trunk (don't know if this is the fuel tank, exhaust system, rear suspension or what) so you can only put small packages in there that can sit on the outer edges of the "box." Unless you put the top down -- in which case you can only use the rear side of the trunk, next to the "box" because the top takes up the front side. Basically, it makes my GT's storage area look big.
After driving them back-to-back at the track my original statement still stands -- the Miata is for true sports car enthusiasts who want that undiluated roadster experience. The Solstice is for people who can handle some slight dilution for the sake of comfort, space and ease-of-use.
Personally, I'd take the Solstice. And I live near Mulholland Drive and would drive it there regularly, so that should tell you how much "purity of roadster spirit" I think you're giving up with the Solstice. Once they bump the Pontiac's power I don't think it will even be a question as to which one to get. But that's just me.
I also thought of another great way to describe the difference between the two cars. You know how if you drive an S2000 and then get into a Miata you think, "Wow, that S2000 is certainly more capable and visceral, but the Miata is still pretty damn fun, while being a bit easier to take on a long-term basis." Well, after going from a Miata to a Solstice you'd say the same thing again...about the Solstice.
I also drove the Ford Fusion at the test track today. This was my first solid experience behind the wheel.
I like this car.
The looks are great, but I already knew that. The steering and overall handling dynamics are great too, but I expected that considering the platform's background. The interior material are quite good too. I wasn't too sure about this, because I'd only seen pre-production versions, and you can never tell if the material is worse or better than reality (sometimes worse because they just use whatever they can to get the car out the door, sometimes better because they are for shows or consumer evaluation -- focus groups -- and they use better stuff then the true production material). Anyway, the look of the gauges, the stitching on the seats, the look/feel of the door panels. All very nice.
My only complaint has to do with the transmission. It shifts fine, but it only has two slots ("D" and "L"). The real problem is that putting the car in "L" only makes it shift earlier than leaving it in "D." It doesn't hold any gear when in "L" and it doesn't shift later, it shifts earlier. Not sure what's up with that, but I couldn't get it to hold a gear when going through the slalom. But I still got a pretty good time because of the car's solid handling dynamics and excellent steering feel.
Really wish I'd had an Accord, Camry and Altima on hand to drive back-to-back and scrutinize the interior/seat comfort.
Also, I think it pulled a low 8-second zero-to-60, and a high 15-second quarter mile, so my fears about it's 220 horsepower engine aren't totally coming true (though I'd still like to see it have more power to be fully competitive).
The one caveat with the Fusion is that it looks really good in black (which our test car was), and it looks good with the larger 17-inch aluminum wheels (which ours had). I worry about what a beige one with 16-inch steel wheels will look like, but at least on the top model in black the "bling" factor rivals a 300C.
Wrt reading the DIC/radio controls, other recent GM cars have similar problems. The Malibu's DIC is virtually unreadable in bright sunlight or if sunlight strikes its tinted bezel.
Thanks for the track info, Karl. Sounds like the Solstice's a nice car, especially in California sun-sun-sun-sun-lovely sun weather. But I really wonder how well this RWD'er will do in heavy rain or - gasp - snow?
Now if only GM could "Solstify" the rest of their line up.
The Solstice seems to be receiving great accolades from a multitude of media outlets. I hope the future models, that GM revealed to the press during the last few months, come to market just as strong.
Maybe, just maybe, GM is finally on the right track.
My only complaint has to do with the transmission. It shifts fine, but it only has two slots ("D" and "L"). The real problem is that putting the car in "L" only makes it shift earlier than leaving it in "D." It doesn't hold any gear when in "L" and it doesn't shift later, it shifts earlier. Not sure what's up with that, but I couldn't get it to hold a gear when going through the slalom. But I still got a pretty good time because of the car's solid handling dynamics and excellent steering feel.
I wonder when Ford is going to come out with a manual shift automatic. It seems everyone is using them nowadays. Sure, it's no substitute for a manual but they sure can make a difference if you're stuck in an auto for one reason or another. They make downshifting in snowy possible (using engine braking), and they allow you to hold a gear or drop a gear while manuevering through twisties.
I have no doubt that if Ford had put a manual shift automatic in the Fusion, it would be a home run. Come to think of it, Mazda is using them in their cars (even their Mazda5 minivan)....why can't Ford share the tranny?
My reason for these posts, and posting here, is that I have driven multiple examples of both these Pontiac alphabet cars – and I can understand most of the comments and conclusions in each test. The characters (as well as raw acceleration numbers) of these cars are that different between the 2.
And given the limited editorial pages available, that’s likely why C+D chose to do a full 4 page test, rather than a single page of impressions.
My impression was that this was an acceptable Forum to discuss how various tests were performed, results were presented and conclusions drawn. And when a particular vehicle that is of no interest to me (Miata, for example) is discussed in detail, I have no problem quickly scanning – or even skipping a post.
The new top is nice, it works a bit like the one in the MR2 Spyder, so that the front edge sort of becomes the cover. It's neater than the NA and NB Miata tops. Still just as easy to use, though.
Having to get out of the car is a royal pain, that alone would be a deal killer for me. I bet Solistice owners put the tops down a lot less often. Still a great effort and great styling.
carlisimo: great post, and I agree with all the points you made. Designs are getting more interesting.
I don't think they need to. Making an automatic shift manually (via the driver's inputs) is simply a matter of software. In other words, Ford chose not to equip the Fusion with manual shifting.
what is your opinion of the Fusion's interior vs. recently introduced domestic models? In the pictures I am not impressed but the press seems to be full of praise for this cars interiors. I have not been in one obviously, but I have been in the 500/Montego at the autoshow and I assume the Fusion is about the same on the inside. I'm sure the build quality is fine but the overall design is at least as dull as the Malibu and I would argue more unimaginative than that of the '06 Impala. In person is the Fusion really that much better?
I think a lot of potential camry and altima buyers would argue with that statement about the fusion. I dont think there is a clear leader amongst midsize sedans at this point. There are several strong contenders that appeal to different buyer tastes. The fusion is a great car for Ford, but other than 6 speed auto and superior looks, it doesnt offer anything you cant get on an Accord/Camry/Altima. I'm still trying to figure out how the Fusion is a revelation but the G6 is just a boring piece of GM mediocrity. I don't see any noticable advantages in favor of the Fusion except it's tranny, but even that isnt a big advantage because it's shift quality has been criticized.
I said "coolest", not "best". I mean... just look at it! In black, anyway.
The interior design is nothing special, but it's elegant and the black piano stuff is a neat contrast. The G6's interior is all black with particularly ugly vents and a dull (and ugly... it stands out as ugly) center console. I do like its exterior, just like I like the Altima's. It doesn't stand out like the Fusion's though.
And then there's the drive. The Mazda6 feels fun to drive, so I'm guessing the Fusion does too. Ford can do steering very well. I drove a G6 and it felt like... a car. Like driving the previous-generation Corolla.
Comments
Ergomics and material quality are one thing, but what about design? Do you like the new civic's interior? To me it is horrible looking and too much of a departure from the old car. The best things about the civic are its mileage and powerful sound systems.
as for center mounted gauges, I have seen lot of criticism of the Ions gauges, but none of the Echo or Prius. Wonder why that would be.
I am interested in seeing Edmunds review of Solstice as well, I am sure they found some issue that others didn't. I bet some pieces of the interior came apart during their drive. Every review I have seen has been very positive thus far.
Speed magazine has a car that they make modifications to in each issue. So far they have made mods to a RSX and a Legacy.
Maybe time/financial constraints do not make this feasible, but, Edmunds readers just might be interested.
Not all newspapers can afford to have their own reviewers. Edmunds could syndicate their reviews after they have posted on line. After all not everyone reads reviews on line - I have heard some people still read newspapers.
Could be a big $$$$ idea.
It's a predisposition to like what comes from Toyota and Honda. See my earlier post about review negativity techniques.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
A good car reviewer could be syndicated. He/she would have to realistic about what different people want in a car. They would need to be able to review a Lucerne compared to a 3-year old LeSabre/PA and review a Cobalt vs a Civic. Many reviewers in print already show a bias, based on car preference due to age, driving style, or income level. What I would have wanted in a car in my 30s was different than 40s and different than now.
AAA magazine has reviewer of cars who's low key but they are biased--he's actually a syndicated writer from a western city newspaper. Our local weekly newspaper group has reviews that are ridiculous. They pick up different ones from wire services or somewhere. I could do better. Many read like they came from the corporate fax machines of certain companies--except for GM and Ford, of which they're usually critical.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Anyway, as much I like seeing car tuning, I wouldn't want Edmunds to do it if it meant diluting the rest of the site.
I'd rather see more work in the used car field; I think that would be relevant to many more Edmunds users. That's one thing I like about Canadian Driver - they review used cars once they're already used. And they're (a little) less afraid of being negative in their used car reviews, so they're actually pretty useful.
First I'll get the bad things out of the way:
1. There is no way to adjust the seat back angle with the door closed. There's just no room between the door and the side of the seat bottom when the driver's door is shut (it's like the SSR all over again). Thankfully, only seat back angle is over there. Fore/aft adjustment is via a lever below the front of the seat.
2. The angle of the head unit (in the center stack) means there is a lot of glare and the display washes out in daylight. They should have either provided some sort of shroud for the head unit, or at least not had it angled upward toward the sky (admittedly, this aids in helping the driver see it, but it also causes wash out with the top down). That said, the display itself is big and bright, so even with the wash-out effect I could still read it fine most of the time.
3. Even with the wheel tilted all the way up it was still slightly blocking the top of the gauges for me. I'm six feet tall, and I tend to sit pretty upright, so for shorter or "less upright" people this won't be an issue. And even with me it was very slight.
4. The other editor who drove it down from Portland said the center tunnel/armrest literally wore his elbow raw due to the hard plastic/rough texture on the center tunnel/armrest. He's shorter than me, so his elbow was probably hitting the center tunnel harder than mine (or at least at a different angle). I didn't have a problem, but I only drove it 60 miles (and I can see how the texture would cause this problem if you did drive a long distance with your arm on it while supporting your upper body weight).
5. I wish it had more low-end torque. There's not a lot happening below 4,000 rpm, which is unfortunate because the chassis/suspension are begging for more power/torque.
Now the good stuff:
1. While it doesn't have the communication/feedback levels of the Miata, it's still very fun to drive on twisty roads. You are going to hear a lot of "little Corvette" comments regarding the Solstice, and they are all correct. The car doesn't instantly inspire you to toss it around in corners (like the Miata does), but once you start tossing it you realize the chassis is very capable and the steering is fully capable (if not truly inspiring). Very Corvette-like indeed.
2. The seats are both comfortable and supportive when driving it hard. AND -- the material is pretty good, too (especially considering the car's MSRP).
3. While the angle of the head unit causes some wash out, the sound system rocks, and with the XM satellite (like our test car had) there's plenty of great music to choose from. Lots of pre-set station slots for memorizing FM, AM and XM, and effective steering wheel-mounted controls for the system, too. Has auto volume for top-down driving (I don't like this feature and set it to "off," but some people do like it, and it has several levels it can be set at).
4. Major stick from the tires. You have to go really fast to make it slide, and then it goes into understeer versus any kind of scary snappiness. This raises the other issue already mentioned, which is the lack of engine torque. If there was more twist to break the rear-end loose you could really fling and drift this car around. As is, you have to spin the engine hard and punch it at just the right moment...and then you get a little bit of rear-end rotation. Very innocuous, meaning no one is going to hurt themselves in this car, but oh -- if only the drivetrain could cash the checks this car's chassis is writing... Rumor has it that by next year a supercharged version will be out. That should be one hell of a car.
Bottom line, GM is going to sell a ton of these, and they should. It looks cool (inside and out), it's fun to drive, comfortable, and the price is going to make any qualms about interior quality or chassis feedback fall by the way side -- neither issue is going to be a deal-breaker for most potential buyers.
As far as Miata comparisons go, I'll slightly revise what the new C&D said. They basically said that it's a better overall car than the Miata, even if the Miata has the pure "backroad thrasher" advantage. I'd put it this way: If you can give up 15 percent of the Miata's purity and spirit, you'll get back 30 percent in all-around functionality. It rides better than the Miata, feels roomier and more comfortable inside, and I personally like the looks better (so does everyone else, judging by the reactions I was getting).
Besides, people who buy Miatas are like people who buys Nissan Xterras. About 10 percent of them actually utilize all 100 percent of both cars' abilities. The other 90 percent just want the image that goes with them, and would happily trade some of those models' abilities for more comfort and daily live-ability.
The Solstice offers that increase in daily live-ability -- and producing a car that's better for 90 percent of the current Miata crowd is not a bad place to be.
Congratulations Mr. Lutz, and GM.
We have a slot with a Pontiac dealer who expects our Solstice to be built in the next six weeks. Look for a long-term introduction shortly after we get it. And watch for our Miata vs Solstice comparison test coming in the next two weeks.
I knew I was right - Pontiac really handed the media some great gifts;)
I saw quite a few company cars on the road last month, but since they have disappeared. I am waiting to for my local dealer to get one - very curious if I will fit comfortably being 6'4".
I really wish GM and Lutz could figure out a way to build a small 4-dr sedan on this chassis. Maybe it would generate the same excitement that Chrysler has attained with the 300/Magnum/Charger. It could even be a formidable competitor for the BMW 1-series.
I'm also surprised how often the upper windshield band is too intrusively in the top of my line of sight. It's made me not consider some cars in the past...
In addition to the (all aluminum and even slightly lighter than the S/C V6, with over +40HP + TQ) 5.3L V8 and larger wheels, the GXP upgrade over the GTP also includes:
0.5 – Ultra High Performance Tires.
1 – Significantly upgraded / strengthened 4T65-E trans.
2 – Bilstein gas-charged dampers and higher rate springs.
2.1 – Stiffer rear stabilizer bar.
3 – Significant brake upgrade over CompG – even well beyond the (obvious) larger, cross-drilled rotors and red painted calipers.
One thing that impressed me (a lot) about the GXP upgrade was that Pontiac here took a total ‘systems’ approach to the upgrade. Meaning: instead of just more HP / TQ and bigger wheels / tires, they addressed every other dynamic aspect as well. In test driving 3 GTP CompGs and 3 GXPs (before a quick shake down run in the GXP that I finally bought) I would respectfully suggest that all of these changes do substantially alter the character of the car - as well as considerably improving the raw test numbers achieved. (0 – 60: 5.7 vs. 6.6 and Quarter Mile: 14.3 @ 98 vs 15.0 @ 93 are differences that even my un-calibrated “butt dyno” can easily feel.)
Works for me.
- Ray
Happy GXP driver . .
On the lash thing - I bet the GTO also has less drivetrain lash, too.
That's interesting. Historically, Civics (and Honda in general) have had very lousy sound systems. At least that's improving.
Hmm, I think I know what this is. Many engines have a function called Deceleration Fuel Cutout mode (at least this is what we call it in the GM engine world) whereby the injectors completely close during coasting (in gear). This was done for emissions reasons, as engines don't burn overrun mixtures very well (very very light load/high vacuum). During the time of no fuel flow, the fuel injectors' pulse widths are zero (measured in milliseconds, or ms), which could cause that MPG indicator anomaly. What I don't understand is why they couldn't add a simple line to the code that said something like "when zero is the calculated instantaneous mpg, substitute 99/200/whatever."
The reason it displays fine in neutral is because the engine won't go into this mode when there is no load on the engine, so it just idles normally. If it did, the engine would stall almost immediately.
I re-read my post and I just wanted to clarify that PCMs use fuel injector pulse width as a primary variable in the calculation of fuel economy. That's why it's relevant.
BTW, my Camry indicates 99.9 mpg in this condition.
Doh!
It doesn't "run" so much as "continue to rotate."
But what makes it run when there's no fuel flow?
A torque connection between the crankshaft and the wheels. In this condition, the engine is what's called "overrun" (I used the term previously). In other words, the car is pulling the engine, rather than vice versa.
In a manual transmission car, this torque connection would be an engaged clutch. In an automatic, it would either be a locked torque converter clutch or just a hydraulic coupling (unlocked torque converter clutch). You would get the same effect if you simply turned the key off, although I cannot speak for electronically controlled transmissions. Something funky might happen in that case.
BTW, my Camry indicates 99.9 mpg in this condition.
Obviously Toyota got around this little "bug." Try coasting in 3rd gear at 65mph and see what it says. Ideally, you'll want a nice 5 second downhill run.
Hmm, 65 mph coasting downhill in 3rd gear? I don't think there are any hills nearby that are straight and steep enough for me to try that. Maybe the next time I go through the mountains of West Virginia. (Could be a while with gas prices as high as they are now!)
Have you driven both?
- Ray
Curious . .
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/ed_displayMakeRelatedDiscussions!make=Pontiac-
:-)
From what I've heard the Solstice has no trunk space when the top is down. Additionally, I've heard you have to get out of the Solstice to handle the top.
Gas mileage...? I've heard high teens/low 20s with a Solstice.
I'm consdering replacing my 330i with a Solstice/S2000/Miata, so these things make a great deal of difference for me.
Yes, the driver must exist the vehicle to raise the cover and stow the top. The rear cover can't be raised sitting in the driver's seat.
Don't have any idea about real-world mileage. The EPA rates it at 20/28. I think the Miata is rated at 25/30.
-juice
I guess that gives new meaning to the expression 'pack light'.
The Mazda website lists the MX5 maximum cargo capactiy at 5.4 cf. It appears as though the top doesn't fold down into the trunk space so that 5.4 cf should be available even with the top down. Can anyone confirm if the MX5 top folds into the trunk space or not?
Anyway, I read the Fusion, Corvette Z06, Jeep Commander reviews and I'd say the imports better watch out! Not only these three, there seem to be several exicting vehicles with promising futures coming from the Big3.
I'm looking forward to readind the Pontiac Solstice review.
When does the Frankfurt Auto Show start? I want to see the new 63 AMGs.
I havent seen any criticism of the Fusion yet other than it's sub par tranny. The press seems to be giving this car a free pass and I keep reading stuff like "finally a domestic car built to compete with the imports". That's a bit of hyperbole. I guess cars like the Malibu, Impala, LAcrosse, etc. arent good enough to be compared to Camcord but the fusion is good enough. If the Fusion's all black interior came inside of a chevy or pontiac I doubt the reception would be so warm.
I think it will; automakers are realizing that only a few nameplates - Camry, Accord, Impala, a few others - have the strength to sell without strong design. And even those are becoming more boldly styled, albeit conservatively. Even the new Grand Vitara, Rav4 and Echo (hatch) are looking good. Good times are ahead.
The Fusion's hands down the coolest midsized sedan, very suddenly. It's kind of sad for Mazda though; they made the great chassis and a great car, but the Fusion will blow it out of the water by being a Ford.
The Solstice has been discussed enough. I'll just throw in that one of the reasons the MR2 failed against the Miata was its lack of trunk space. I'm sure that wasn't the big reason, but it was certainly a handicap (some people buy cheap roadsters as their primary car). rorr, the Miata's top folds down ahead of the trunk. No tonneau cover either.
While I'm not usually too excited about hybrids, the new Civic will be important, and the timing is good. If it beats the Prius in real-life mileage, and the general public decides they like the look, the Civic hybrid will finally come out of the shadows.
Zero-to-60:
Miata -- 7.5 seconds
Soltice -- 7.73 seconds
And yes, I know the Miata is supposed to do mid- to high-6s. I don't know what to tell you. I got excellent launches and solid upshifts. Our test car had only 300 miles on it, which made me feel bad about hammering the engine, but I did hammer it and couldn't do better than a 7.5. Maybe it gets quicker when it's fully broken in. Of course those numbers are uncorrected, but we were at our coastal test site, so I don't see the numbers going down much.
Braking, 60-to-0
Miata -- 117 (but, after four runs it was up to 124)
Solstice -- 121 (after four runs it was also at 124, but that's less than half the fade between first and final run compared to the Miata)
Slalom
Miata -- 6.39 seconds (don't know exact MPH it translates to, but should be around 67)
Solstice -- 6.36 seconds (basically it's a tie, but the Solstice was slightly quicker through the 600-foot slalom)
A few comments to go with this:
1. When I drove the Solstice on Sunday it was late afternoon, and the radio display wash-out situation was minimal, but noticeable. I've since driven it mid-day with the top down, and I couldn't read the display at all. This is probably the biggest design screw-up on the car (at least it still sounds really good)
2. In the slalom the Miata was definitely more responsive, but it also wanted to rotate more quickly and easily. I could catch it, but it did want to rotate. The Solstice also wanted to rotate, but it had to be going faster, and it was even easier to catch. Credit the monster tire/wheel combo that gives it more ultiamate stick than the Miata.
Not really saying one design is better than the other, because some roadster drivers really want their car to rotate quickly, but it does make for greater potential tragedy -- unless you're a good enough driver to really utilize the quick oversteer.
As for trunk space, the Solstice is pretty useless. There's a huge "box" in the center of the trunk (don't know if this is the fuel tank, exhaust system, rear suspension or what) so you can only put small packages in there that can sit on the outer edges of the "box." Unless you put the top down -- in which case you can only use the rear side of the trunk, next to the "box" because the top takes up the front side. Basically, it makes my GT's storage area look big.
After driving them back-to-back at the track my original statement still stands -- the Miata is for true sports car enthusiasts who want that undiluated roadster experience. The Solstice is for people who can handle some slight dilution for the sake of comfort, space and ease-of-use.
Personally, I'd take the Solstice. And I live near Mulholland Drive and would drive it there regularly, so that should tell you how much "purity of roadster spirit" I think you're giving up with the Solstice. Once they bump the Pontiac's power I don't think it will even be a question as to which one to get. But that's just me.
I also thought of another great way to describe the difference between the two cars. You know how if you drive an S2000 and then get into a Miata you think, "Wow, that S2000 is certainly more capable and visceral, but the Miata is still pretty damn fun, while being a bit easier to take on a long-term basis." Well, after going from a Miata to a Solstice you'd say the same thing again...about the Solstice.
I like this car.
The looks are great, but I already knew that. The steering and overall handling dynamics are great too, but I expected that considering the platform's background. The interior material are quite good too. I wasn't too sure about this, because I'd only seen pre-production versions, and you can never tell if the material is worse or better than reality (sometimes worse because they just use whatever they can to get the car out the door, sometimes better because they are for shows or consumer evaluation -- focus groups -- and they use better stuff then the true production material). Anyway, the look of the gauges, the stitching on the seats, the look/feel of the door panels. All very nice.
My only complaint has to do with the transmission. It shifts fine, but it only has two slots ("D" and "L"). The real problem is that putting the car in "L" only makes it shift earlier than leaving it in "D." It doesn't hold any gear when in "L" and it doesn't shift later, it shifts earlier. Not sure what's up with that, but I couldn't get it to hold a gear when going through the slalom. But I still got a pretty good time because of the car's solid handling dynamics and excellent steering feel.
Really wish I'd had an Accord, Camry and Altima on hand to drive back-to-back and scrutinize the interior/seat comfort.
Also, I think it pulled a low 8-second zero-to-60, and a high 15-second quarter mile, so my fears about it's 220 horsepower engine aren't totally coming true (though I'd still like to see it have more power to be fully competitive).
The one caveat with the Fusion is that it looks really good in black (which our test car was), and it looks good with the larger 17-inch aluminum wheels (which ours had). I worry about what a beige one with 16-inch steel wheels will look like, but at least on the top model in black the "bling" factor rivals a 300C.
Thanks for the track info, Karl. Sounds like the Solstice's a nice car, especially in California sun-sun-sun-sun-lovely sun weather. But I really wonder how well this RWD'er will do in heavy rain or - gasp - snow?
The Solstice seems to be receiving great accolades from a multitude of media outlets. I hope the future models, that GM revealed to the press during the last few months, come to market just as strong.
Maybe, just maybe, GM is finally on the right track.
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/lutz1e_20050901.htm
from this interview -
"QUESTION: Is it reasonable to say the Solstice is the first car that was completely developed on your watch?
ANSWER: The Solstice and the (Chevrolet) HHR and (Hummer) H3 all are"
So these are the first three that Lutz can take credit for. I would say -
Solstice - A
H3 - B (little weak in the engine dept., but maybe got lucky with high gas prices)
HHR - B-/C+ has received mixed reviews, first two months of sales are on target.
Hopefully we get more A's in the future.
I wonder when Ford is going to come out with a manual shift automatic. It seems everyone is using them nowadays. Sure, it's no substitute for a manual but they sure can make a difference if you're stuck in an auto for one reason or another.
They make downshifting in snowy possible (using engine braking), and they allow you to hold a gear or drop a gear while manuevering through twisties.
I have no doubt that if Ford had put a manual shift automatic in the Fusion, it would be a home run.
Come to think of it, Mazda is using them in their cars (even their Mazda5 minivan)....why can't Ford share the tranny?
And given the limited editorial pages available, that’s likely why C+D chose to do a full 4 page test, rather than a single page of impressions.
My impression was that this was an acceptable Forum to discuss how various tests were performed, results were presented and conclusions drawn. And when a particular vehicle that is of no interest to me (Miata, for example) is discussed in detail, I have no problem quickly scanning – or even skipping a post.
I could be wrong.
- Ray
Movin’ on . . .
Having to get out of the car is a royal pain, that alone would be a deal killer for me. I bet Solistice owners put the tops down a lot less often. Still a great effort and great styling.
carlisimo: great post, and I agree with all the points you made. Designs are getting more interesting.
-juice
I don't think they need to. Making an automatic shift manually (via the driver's inputs) is simply a matter of software. In other words, Ford chose not to equip the Fusion with manual shifting.
The interior design is nothing special, but it's elegant and the black piano stuff is a neat contrast. The G6's interior is all black with particularly ugly vents and a dull (and ugly... it stands out as ugly) center console. I do like its exterior, just like I like the Altima's. It doesn't stand out like the Fusion's though.
And then there's the drive. The Mazda6 feels fun to drive, so I'm guessing the Fusion does too. Ford can do steering very well. I drove a G6 and it felt like... a car. Like driving the previous-generation Corolla.