What road tests are coming up? I haven't seen any in a week, when the Commander First Drive was released. I did enjoy reading and looking at the pictures from your European Touring sedan story.
There will be a flood of First Drives starting tomorrow. Sept. 1 is a busy day for embargos (Fusion, Civic, Z06, and I think one or two more...). We've also got an in-depth truck shoot-out between the Tacoma and Frontier (the 1st and 2nd place finishers after out last compact truck comparo). We tow stuff, go off-roading in Death Valley, etc. There's still some disagreement among the staff as to which truck is better. I'm partial to the Toyota (which won the comparo), but lots of people on staff like the Frontier better. Really, they're both great trucks so you can't lose either way (sort of like the argument between Odyssey and Sienna).
Does Edmunds get compensated when someone wants to quote all of you? If so, is that a source of "serious" revenue? Do you have people who go out and "drum up" buisness to get money for your quotes?
IF we got paid for those types of quotes it would totally cross the line.
But we don't. Thanks for asking, as I'd definitely not want people to be misinformed on this issue.
Do you read any car magazines, such as Car and Driver, or any other media review outlets? If so, which ones? Besides Edmunds, who do you feel accurately reviews new vehicles?
You're trying to get me in trouble again, aren't you?
I can tell you that I read C&D, Motor Trend, Road & Track, AutoWeek and Automobile. I also read Hemming's Motor News and Hemming's Muscle Cars. I just signed up for Hemming's Sports Cars and Exotics. My wife is angry about the stack of unread magazines on our kitchen counter that I continue to swear I'll read...eventually. I can keep up with AutoWeek, and I do pretty well with Motor Trend and C&D, but Road and Track and Automobile get backed up because of my time constraints -- but I still won't throw them out until I at least give them a once-over (even if I can't read most of them).
As far as accurate reviews? Well, let's just say this. I like having past magazines for reference -- though with the internet this is becoming an obsolete practice because you can look up most articles online. But that notwithstanding, I am still saving all my old Car & Driver and AutoWeek issues -- and only those.
Well, thanks for taking my comparo list with to your meeting. Let us know what happened, if you don't mind. I know it might be hard to round up cars for comparison tests, but even a few large comparison tests are enough to keep us satisfied for a while....
About the Frontier vs. Tacoma, I'd say the Frontier is better. It looks more trucklike. The Tacoma has become too big, so why not just get a Tundra or some other fullsize? Either way its the same F-150 vs. Titan battle, you can't lose with either truck.
"We've also got an in-depth truck shoot-out between the Tacoma and Frontier..."
Given the fact that there will be a bunch of car reviews released tomorrow due to the embargo, why would Edmunds also post a comparison test at the same time which is not affected by the embargo? Edmunds risks having it lost in the shuffle when, perhaps, it could have been released on an otherwise 'slow' date?
YOu cant be surprised at the press response to the Freestyle. I think it's a good package for families not concerned about performance but with that styling and engine you knew it wasnt going to be loved by the press.
I am surprised by this C&D test of the GXP, it sounds totally out of character for them. I really want to read it for myself.
I think R&T gives the most balanced reviews overall, although they spend too much time talking about racing. After that I would have to lean towards MT although it's hard to really take them seriously at times. I find C&D and Edmunds to be about the same. 90% of the time you can predict the results of their tests and comparos without bothering to read them. That is one reason why I actually want to see the October issue pf C&D. It's always nice to be surprised, even if it doesn't happen that much.
Karl:
Can you tell me why the automotive press acts like only GM sells gas guzzling SUVs? Every day (it seems) I see another article talking about how high gas prices are going to sink GM and they are stupid for spending money on redesigning their SUVs and Pikcups. IF this segment is in trouble why is Ford redesigning the Expedition/Navitgator for 2007? Why is toyota working on a large gas guzzling Tundra? why did Nissan come out with the Titan and Armada? No one talks about the poor mileage of any of those models or about gas guzzling "crossovers" like the X5 and ML500.
Given the fact that there will be a bunch of car reviews released tomorrow due to the embargo, why would Edmunds also post a comparison test at the same time which is not affected by the embargo? Edmunds risks having it lost in the shuffle when, perhaps, it could have been released on an otherwise 'slow' date?
We're not releasing that comparsion test tomorrow. I think it hits next week. I just mentioned it because it's coming soon. Sorry for the confusion.
"I am surprised by this C&D test of the GXP, it sounds totally out of character for them. I really want to read it for myself."
I was very surprised myself.
Don't fret though, the BMW 330i won the comparo it was in, even though it had numerous malfunctions and they were unable to conduct all performance tests on it. I have not driven the new 330 and I am sure it is a very good car - I just have a problem with it winning a test when it was plagued with problems. Imagine if it was the Z06 with these problems - C & D would have ripped it to shreds.
I read your review on the new Civic Si. The car looks nice, but I'm not too fond of the two tier instrument panel. The sedan's rear taillights don't look that great, it's as if a piece is missing.
Anyway, here's my question. What happens to concept cars after an AutoShow? I believe the Civic was unveiled at either New York or Chicago. What would have happened to that Civic shown there?
One more question - when does the Frankfurt auto show start?
Now that the embargo is over, what are your thoughts on the 2006 Civic?
One of the other road test editors attended the car's press intro, so I still haven't been in one personally. I have to base my opinion on the same story that just posted to our site.
I agree with the comments that the coupe looks very Saturn-esque. And the sedan looks like a Prius. I haven't been a huge fan of the Civic's styling since the 2001 redesign. Otherwise I'll have to drive it to make any valid comments, though I suspect it will contain the following traits: refined drivetrain comfortable seats good-to-excellent material quality logical switchgear relatively fun to drive (at least for an economy car) relatively high gas mileage
Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe Honda blew it this time and screwed up all the car's core values...but that's never happened before.
Well, if 'logical switchgear' is roughly equivalent to good ergonomics, I have to disagree. Why in the heck to manufacturer's, in an attempt to set themselves apart, place the speedometer at odd random places around the dash? What in the heck is so wrong with placing the speedo and tach side by side in a main instrument binnacle framed by the steering wheel?
When I first saw the Prius I thought it'd be a bad idea too. But then I tried it out, and I loved it!
The steering wheel being in the way is a very serious problem though, and I think it could be a deal-breaker for anyone who shares that seating position.
Maybe one day, active steering will be standard fare and steering wheels will have cut-outs on top like in airplanes.
"Maybe one day, active steering will be standard fare and steering wheels will have cut-outs on top like in airplanes."
Or mount the instrument binnacle to the steering column so it moves up/down with the steering wheel. Never an obstructed instrument that way either.
Re - the Prius. One thing I hate about driving it is that the display showing how the power is being routed, or the log of fuel consumption, can be extremely distracting to the driver. I find myself constantly messing with the darn thing like it was a video game when I drive my dad's Prius.
rorr...I felt the same as you until I drove a friend's Mini. I kind of liked having the tach right in front of me and the speedo off to the side. Same way with the RX8....kind of.......the tach is the main guage while the speedo is a little LCD window.
Don't know how I'd like having the whole guage binnacle sitting in the center of the dash area, however.
i rode in a friend's latest-model prius and was very amused by the display showing how you "win" red energy units - i thought they were just like the 'fruit' from pac-man. however if i drove the car i would probably crash it within 2 miles of driving due to trying to "win fruit". someone please make the pacman chomping sound stop in my head now! make it stop! they're coming to take me away, ha ha . well, before the men in white suits get here, i'll tell you that i've spent much time in both my tdi & gto trying to minimize or eliminate all the distracting nonsense on the dash like instantaneous-mpg, digital speedo, dielectric constant of the driver's left earlobe, or GTO's too-bright indicators telling me "MPH" and showing me that DRLs are on. as if i didn't know the speedo was displaying mph not kph. on the 2004 GTOs there is a tsb for dimming the mph indicator, but the dealer claims they can't apply that to 2005s. i said "my hirsute gluteus maximus" to the dealer service rept, but it didn't help. so two strategically placed pieces of black electrical tape are on my GTO dash. it works but is a bit embarassing.
speaking of those absurdly distracting instantaneous mpg indicators, i noted something trivial about them that is an indicator to me of correct engineering - reminiscent of the Karl-power-mirror-test: on the TDI when one coasts in gear, the instantaneous mpg shows 999.9 or 99.9 or whatever the "pegged"maximum value is. on GTO the instantaneous mpg shows 0.00 when coasting, which is way wrong. in this small way the German engineers have achieved better mathematical/physical correctness where the Aussie engineers have made a math mistake. a nonzero number divided by zero is most definitely not zero - it is instead one form of "infinity". on the other hand, the GTO power mirror action is way nicer than passat TDI's - with way less "lash" than the TDI power mirrors. (i mean lash like with "drivetrain lash").
If you've been reading this discussion for awhile you might have already heard the short version, but if you want the full story check out my latest Carmudgeon:
>nonzero number divided by zero is most definitely not zero
A number divided by zero is meaningless. You are thinking of calculus techniques where it should be an extremely small number (amount of gasoline) in the denominator divided into a measurable distance in the numerator.---My LeSabre never goes about 79.9, at least I believe that is the number when coasting.
Watching all this stuff is distracting, but then I never use my cellphone while driving (well, almost never) like some drivers/.
Well, if 'logical switchgear' is roughly equivalent to good ergonomics, I have to disagree.
Nope, it means logical switchgear. That includes steering wheels stalks, window switches, HVAC controls, power mirror operation, cruise control functions and audio controls. Ergonomics would include all of those, PLUS seating position and -- yes -- gauge placement/clarity.
That's why I specified "switchgear."
IMHO, center gauges are extremely annoying. The first time I experienced them was in the Echo, and it was enough to make me hate the car all by itself (though the goofy proportions, high price/low standard content and tippy handling further reduced my opinion of the car).
When I bought my Mini Cooper in the spring of 2002 I actually paid the extra $1,400 for the navigation system. Why? Did I really want a navigation system? No, but if you bought the Nav they had to use the central dash area for the screen, which meant mounting the speedo right next to the tach on the steering column (yaaay!).
When you sit in a car the most normal/comfortable place for you to look is -- straight ahead. That's where your head naturally wants to be. I can't imagine why car makers try to fight ths by forcing you to look off center for crucial vehicle information. Audio and HVAC is one thing, because both are occasional-use items (and there's only so much dash space to go around). But basic info like speed and fuel status should be where you are looking most often while you drive -- straight ahead.
I've always said that the real reason manufacturers use central gauge clusters is because it makes it cheaper/easier to sell the same model in right- and left-hand drive countries. Take a close look at all cars that use this placement and then think about their "global-ness." Pretty obvious what's really driving it, no?
One caveat to all this -- on performance cars (Porsches, RX-8, and even the Ford GT), I do like the idea of the tachometer being front-and-center, even if it means moving the speedo off to the side. If the speedo is: A. Big; and B. Angled directly toward the driver, then I can deal with it being off center.
The Mini Cooper's speedo is big, but the angle makes it hard to read the speed accurately (same with the fuel and temp gauge in the Mini). The Echo's speedo was angled toward the driver, but it was so small it was still hard to read at a glance.
imidazol97, don't make me slap you silly with a slide-rule or the enormous heathkit 4-function calculator i built in 1975. i'm not talking about calculus. you don't wanna go there with me! i was crashing computers at the boston museum of science back then too, using various tricks to get them to divide-by-zero, even before i learned to drive in my dad's 1965 beetle ! ok, maybe you are older than me and are a math teacher and have a longer beard than me and own even more birkenstocks than i do. i'm sure an ad-nauseum math/physics/cosmology discussion with you would be greatly enjoyable.
but a positive nonzero number divided by zero does contain information - it does have some meaning - is not meaningless. and it most definitely does not compute to "zero" as a result. after this discussion i'll probably rack up my GTO when i drive it to work as i reverify its dashboard oddities. please make all the dashboard gadgetry stop!
i too don't like using cellphone while driving - especially a standard-trans car. but i have a wife & 3 young children so obviously i use the phone sometimes even when i'm in NY state. but i do greatly enjoy using the excuse "i was driving in NY so i didn't answer the cellphone".
We agree! I built a Heath calculator and a stereo kit! If you have a sliderule, hang on to it. Those are not meant as weapons against others; they were tools of masochism for perfectionists!!!
Actually it's "undefined" and therefore meaningless. Please don't rack up the GTO, I always would like to have had one, when I could have afforded the insurance and the fuel costs.
The gadgetry is a distraction and a benefit both. I would like to be able to program which show on my LeSabre's digital display quickly and have the rest require more button pushes to get to when I need it (oil life, e.g., miles to empty). I couldn't handle navigation.
approaches infinity, imo. It can be a fraction of other infinite numbers, but it's still going in that direction.
Karl, thanks for that article. I just started working and since I'm not used to having any money, I'm living rather miserly right now and commuting with an unreliable tape deck and two speakers, one of which works sometimes. I've been planning on doing something about it, but I feel like it's not a great use of money whenever I come close. Off I go to the Audio board...
Karl, I completely understand where you are coming from three years ago my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and it made me realize that life holds no guarantees. So, two weeks ago I put down a deposit on the car that I had previously told myself could wait until "later". I wish you many happy moments with that beautiful car of yours.
I'm officially in geekdom...LOL There's ALWAYS a slide rule on my desk. It gets used ALL the time. (Don't tell anyone, but I have a $300 K&E slide rule as well!)
Handy to have in the glovebox of the GT for mileage calculations...LOL
My Dad used to run road rallies as navigator with the K&E.
Are you serious about using it all the time? I've been telling people all those slide rules went away after the TI 56 came out at a great price. I may still have a K&E but I probably cleaned out my college stuff and threw it away. Do you suppose they're collector's items like a 65 Mustang Red convertible? Wonder what they're worth.
Karl, thanks for that article. I just started working and since I'm not used to having any money, I'm living rather miserly right now and commuting with an unreliable tape deck and two speakers, one of which works sometimes. I've been planning on doing something about it, but I feel like it's not a great use of money whenever I come close. Off I go to the Audio board...
Keep the faith. I moved to L.A. 11 years ago this month to start working as an editorial assistant for Hot Rod magazine. I was bringing home $1,500 a month ($785 of which went for rent), and eating a lot of mac & cheese.
Obviously I couldn't foresee where I'd be today, but I was just goofy enough to believe in all the old cliches:
Hard work pays off If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything Dreams really do come true Don't bet on the horses (wait, that one didn't really come into play here...)
Anyway, I continue to believe in the power of hard work, focus and passion.
This ends our irregularly scheduled inspirational post.
Sort of a technical question for you regarding acceleration and engine ratings.
For the 2006 Civic coupe there are two engine choices -
The 1.8-liter i-VTEC that produces 140hp @ 6300 and 128lb-ft @4300rpm
The 2.0 found in the Si produces 197hp @ 7800 and 139lb-ft @ 6200rpm
I have seen published reports of 0-60 mph times for the Si ranging between 6.7 to 7.3 sec. It is my understanding that acceleration is largely dependent on the amount of torque - although horsepower must come into play as well. Explain?
The Si does not have much more torque than the DX, LX, or EX versions and it is at much higher rpms. So will the 1.8-liter acceleration times be that much worse than the 2.0-liter? I am also talking about the manual trans versions - and I am aware that the Si has a 6-spd and the others have a 5-spd. I would guess the 1.8-liter would be capable of pulling off 0-60 times in the 8 sec. range. Your thoughts as to all of this???
to reading the Edmunds review of the Solstice. So far every single review I have read has been very positive.
Car and Driver Motor Trend Road and Track Autoweek Wards The Car Connection Detroit Free Press
Maybe more. For the most part they are probably the best reviews I have seen for any GM vehicle in quite a long time (except for maybe the new Z06). Many have even liked it more than the MX-5.
Curious as to Edmunds take?
So it bring up some questions -
Did all the reviewers get some great free gifts? Better than usual ?
Did GM really produce this vehicle? Or is it secretly a joint venture with BMW?
You have to see the horsepower curve, plotted against RPM. Its slope approximates the torque-rpm curve. (In other words, horsepower is torque x rpm, but you can't use peak numbers for that.)
So, what matters isn't peak torque, but instantaneous torque (average torque is a decent measure). The Si engine has 139lb-ft @ 6200rpm, but how long can it keep a torque output nearly that high? My guess is that between 6000 and 8000rpm, it makes around 130+ lb-ft. What matters though, if you're drag racing, is how much torque it makes at 3000, 4000, and 5000rpm. I'm sure you can find that out pretty easily, just look at Sport Compact Car articles (online) for RSX-S dyno sheets.
For the most part they are probably the best reviews I have seen for any GM vehicle in quite a long time (except for maybe the new Z06). Many have even liked it more than the MX-5. I've just confirmed that I'll be picking up the Solstice from another road test editor on Sunday of this holiday weekend. I'll let everyone know what I think as soon as I can afterwards.
Curious as to Edmunds take? Comments coming Sunday night.
So it brings up some questions -
Did all the reviewers get some great free gifts? Better than usual? Hey now, I thought I had the market cornered on cynicism in this discussion.
Did GM really produce this vehicle? Or is it secretly a joint venture with BMW? Can't be, the styling is too well executed. :P
Or maybe Lutz still has what it takes? After meeting and speaking with Lutz several times I'd like to see him knock one out of the park -- and get full credit for it. No matter what anyone's opinion is of him, he's got one hell of an impressive history/resume -- plus he's really a great guy in person.
I see you passed over my questions about your opinions of your peers at some of the other auto enthusiast magazines.
Any comments or thoughts you'd like to share?
Sorry. I didn't pass over those questions on purpose. I remembered them last night and was like, "Oh yeah, I didn't answer that one yet."
But, my answer is going to be pretty boring. Basically I feel like there are good and bad automotive journalists, and I think the biggest differentiators comes down to two things: 1. Doing the necessary research so that you really understand a cars abilities and how they stack up to likely competitors 2. Being willing to actually make a critical statement when it's deserved
Too often I see these elements come together to produce bad reviews, meaning too often I think journalists say to themselves, "Well, I could do an in-depth analysis of this car, understand it's strengths and weaknesses versus the competition, and then write an in-depth review. But that would mean doing a lot of work, and I might very likely find some real problems with this car, which if I report in my story I'll potentially risk my access to future press cars from the same manufacturer. Hmmm, probably better to just do a standard gloss-over of the details and basically write an entertaining, but not particularly informative, review."
That's my definition of what makes a bad automotive journalist. As far as who? Well, Mom always said if you can't say something nice...
"Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe Honda blew it this time and screwed up all the car's core values...but that's never happened before."
was that a tweak you are throwing in? my brother in law had one of those the first year it had the front strut suspension. i remember thinking, it's like a k-car(without the deal). :confuse:
2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
>2. Being willing to actually make a critical statement when it's deserved >if you can't say something nice...
I've been irritated with a lot of reviews of cars where there's a negative overall slant and sometimes it's a part of a magazine's bias--even when it's a broad reader base magazine. Just because a writer doesn't like a particular company's offerings they don't have to write a totally negative review, but they can make honest, negative reports which would be helpful to others looking for something different in their car than the reviewer wants to see in cars.
I have found a common and irritating technique to give a negative review. Make each paragraph end with a negative.
"The car gets good mileage. The layout of the controls is acceptable. The car has nice wheels but the motor has a drumming sound like the previous motor from company XXX."
I receive it better when the dislikes are clumped and the likes are grouped together. Facts are nice and opinions can be stated as personal likes as long as it's clear different folks may want different things from a car than the reviewer.
I think the negative twist at the end of the paragraph is a sign of a poor journalist. Just give it straight. It's possible to say nice, bad, and honest; maybe not easy, but possible. Right Karl?
BTW. This is not in reference to any reviews Karl has written. It's after reading lots of reviews since 02 when car shopping and being irritated with a certain consumer magazine along with lots of newspaper syndicated reviews that show up in local, weekly and city newspapers.
Comments
-juice
I am predicting that Edmunds picks the MX-5 - due to the more sporty nature. And of course a better interior
There will be a flood of First Drives starting tomorrow. Sept. 1 is a busy day for embargos (Fusion, Civic, Z06, and I think one or two more...). We've also got an in-depth truck shoot-out between the Tacoma and Frontier (the 1st and 2nd place finishers after out last compact truck comparo). We tow stuff, go off-roading in Death Valley, etc. There's still some disagreement among the staff as to which truck is better. I'm partial to the Toyota (which won the comparo), but lots of people on staff like the Frontier better. Really, they're both great trucks so you can't lose either way (sort of like the argument between Odyssey and Sienna).
IF we got paid for those types of quotes it would totally cross the line.
But we don't. Thanks for asking, as I'd definitely not want people to be misinformed on this issue.
You're trying to get me in trouble again, aren't you?
I can tell you that I read C&D, Motor Trend, Road & Track, AutoWeek and Automobile. I also read Hemming's Motor News and Hemming's Muscle Cars. I just signed up for Hemming's Sports Cars and Exotics. My wife is angry about the stack of unread magazines on our kitchen counter that I continue to swear I'll read...eventually. I can keep up with AutoWeek, and I do pretty well with Motor Trend and C&D, but Road and Track and Automobile get backed up because of my time constraints -- but I still won't throw them out until I at least give them a once-over (even if I can't read most of them).
As far as accurate reviews? Well, let's just say this. I like having past magazines for reference -- though with the internet this is becoming an obsolete practice because you can look up most articles online. But that notwithstanding, I am still saving all my old Car & Driver and AutoWeek issues -- and only those.
Are there any other folks in your line of work that you respect more than others? How about the opposite -- who do you think is a big blowhard?
Not sure that you can answer these in such a public forum, but it can't hurt to ask.
About the Frontier vs. Tacoma, I'd say the Frontier is better. It looks more trucklike. The Tacoma has become too big, so why not just get a Tundra or some other fullsize? Either way its the same F-150 vs. Titan battle, you can't lose with either truck.
I'm eagerly waiting the road test flood!
Given the fact that there will be a bunch of car reviews released tomorrow due to the embargo, why would Edmunds also post a comparison test at the same time which is not affected by the embargo? Edmunds risks having it lost in the shuffle when, perhaps, it could have been released on an otherwise 'slow' date?
I am surprised by this C&D test of the GXP, it sounds totally out of character for them. I really want to read it for myself.
I think R&T gives the most balanced reviews overall, although they spend too much time talking about racing. After that I would have to lean towards MT although it's hard to really take them seriously at times. I find C&D and Edmunds to be about the same. 90% of the time you can predict the results of their tests and comparos without bothering to read them. That is one reason why I actually want to see the October issue pf C&D. It's always nice to be surprised, even if it doesn't happen that much.
Karl:
Can you tell me why the automotive press acts like only GM sells gas guzzling SUVs? Every day (it seems) I see another article talking about how high gas prices are going to sink GM and they are stupid for spending money on redesigning their SUVs and Pikcups. IF this segment is in trouble why is Ford redesigning the Expedition/Navitgator for 2007? Why is toyota working on a large gas guzzling Tundra? why did Nissan come out with the Titan and Armada? No one talks about the poor mileage of any of those models or about gas guzzling "crossovers" like the X5 and ML500.
We're not releasing that comparsion test tomorrow. I think it hits next week. I just mentioned it because it's coming soon. Sorry for the confusion.
I was very surprised myself.
Don't fret though, the BMW 330i won the comparo it was in, even though it had numerous malfunctions and they were unable to conduct all performance tests on it. I have not driven the new 330 and I am sure it is a very good car - I just have a problem with it winning a test when it was plagued with problems. Imagine if it was the Z06 with these problems - C & D would have ripped it to shreds.
Anyway, here's my question. What happens to concept cars after an AutoShow? I believe the Civic was unveiled at either New York or Chicago. What would have happened to that Civic shown there?
One more question - when does the Frankfurt auto show start?
Either that or GM actually produced a better car; one that lives up to it's press releases.
Sequoia isn't a blip on the charts compared to GM's SUVs.
Plus the fact that they are a cash cow makes them a target.
-juice
One of the other road test editors attended the car's press intro, so I still haven't been in one personally. I have to base my opinion on the same story that just posted to our site.
I agree with the comments that the coupe looks very Saturn-esque. And the sedan looks like a Prius. I haven't been a huge fan of the Civic's styling since the 2001 redesign. Otherwise I'll have to drive it to make any valid comments, though I suspect it will contain the following traits:
refined drivetrain
comfortable seats
good-to-excellent material quality
logical switchgear
relatively fun to drive (at least for an economy car)
relatively high gas mileage
Of course, I could be wrong. Maybe Honda blew it this time and screwed up all the car's core values...but that's never happened before.
Well, if 'logical switchgear' is roughly equivalent to good ergonomics, I have to disagree. Why in the heck to manufacturer's, in an attempt to set themselves apart, place the speedometer at odd random places around the dash? What in the heck is so wrong with placing the speedo and tach side by side in a main instrument binnacle framed by the steering wheel?
The steering wheel being in the way is a very serious problem though, and I think it could be a deal-breaker for anyone who shares that seating position.
Maybe one day, active steering will be standard fare and steering wheels will have cut-outs on top like in airplanes.
But the ergonomics are a bit odd.
-juice
Or mount the instrument binnacle to the steering column so it moves up/down with the steering wheel. Never an obstructed instrument that way either.
Re - the Prius. One thing I hate about driving it is that the display showing how the power is being routed, or the log of fuel consumption, can be extremely distracting to the driver. I find myself constantly messing with the darn thing like it was a video game when I drive my dad's Prius.
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-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Don't know how I'd like having the whole guage binnacle sitting in the center of the dash area, however.
i've spent much time in both my tdi & gto trying to minimize or eliminate all the distracting nonsense on the dash like instantaneous-mpg, digital speedo, dielectric constant of the driver's left earlobe, or GTO's too-bright indicators telling me "MPH" and showing me that DRLs are on. as if i didn't know the speedo was displaying mph not kph. on the 2004 GTOs there is a tsb for dimming the mph indicator, but the dealer claims they can't apply that to 2005s. i said "my hirsute gluteus maximus" to the dealer service rept, but it didn't help. so two strategically placed pieces of black electrical tape are on my GTO dash. it works but is a bit embarassing.
speaking of those absurdly distracting instantaneous mpg indicators, i noted something trivial about them that is an indicator to me of correct engineering - reminiscent of the Karl-power-mirror-test: on the TDI when one coasts in gear, the instantaneous mpg shows 999.9 or 99.9 or whatever the "pegged"maximum value is. on GTO the instantaneous mpg shows 0.00 when coasting, which is way wrong. in this small way the German engineers have achieved better mathematical/physical correctness where the Aussie engineers have made a math mistake. a nonzero number divided by zero is most definitely not zero - it is instead one form of "infinity". on the other hand, the GTO power mirror action is way nicer than passat TDI's - with way less "lash" than the TDI power mirrors. (i mean lash like with "drivetrain lash").
prlady1, "Talk to the Press" #927, 1 Sep 2005 11:20 am
Steve, Host
http://www.edmunds.com/news/column/carmudgeon/107084/article.html
A number divided by zero is meaningless. You are thinking of calculus techniques where it should be an extremely small number (amount of gasoline) in the denominator divided into a measurable distance in the numerator.---My LeSabre never goes about 79.9, at least I believe that is the number when coasting.
Watching all this stuff is distracting, but then I never use my cellphone while driving (well, almost never) like some drivers/.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Nope, it means logical switchgear. That includes steering wheels stalks, window switches, HVAC controls, power mirror operation, cruise control functions and audio controls. Ergonomics would include all of those, PLUS seating position and -- yes -- gauge placement/clarity.
That's why I specified "switchgear."
IMHO, center gauges are extremely annoying. The first time I experienced them was in the Echo, and it was enough to make me hate the car all by itself (though the goofy proportions, high price/low standard content and tippy handling further reduced my opinion of the car).
When I bought my Mini Cooper in the spring of 2002 I actually paid the extra $1,400 for the navigation system. Why? Did I really want a navigation system? No, but if you bought the Nav they had to use the central dash area for the screen, which meant mounting the speedo right next to the tach on the steering column (yaaay!).
When you sit in a car the most normal/comfortable place for you to look is -- straight ahead. That's where your head naturally wants to be. I can't imagine why car makers try to fight ths by forcing you to look off center for crucial vehicle information. Audio and HVAC is one thing, because both are occasional-use items (and there's only so much dash space to go around). But basic info like speed and fuel status should be where you are looking most often while you drive -- straight ahead.
I've always said that the real reason manufacturers use central gauge clusters is because it makes it cheaper/easier to sell the same model in right- and left-hand drive countries. Take a close look at all cars that use this placement and then think about their "global-ness." Pretty obvious what's really driving it, no?
One caveat to all this -- on performance cars (Porsches, RX-8, and even the Ford GT), I do like the idea of the tachometer being front-and-center, even if it means moving the speedo off to the side. If the speedo is: A. Big; and B. Angled directly toward the driver, then I can deal with it being off center.
The Mini Cooper's speedo is big, but the angle makes it hard to read the speed accurately (same with the fuel and temp gauge in the Mini). The Echo's speedo was angled toward the driver, but it was so small it was still hard to read at a glance.
And I trust that you will enjoy that GT!
- Ray
Thinking even at $4 or $5 per gallon, I would rather fill THAT car's tank . .
but a positive nonzero number divided by zero does contain information - it does have some meaning - is not meaningless. and it most definitely does not compute to "zero" as a result. after this discussion i'll probably rack up my GTO when i drive it to work as i reverify its dashboard oddities. please make all the dashboard gadgetry stop!
i too don't like using cellphone while driving - especially a standard-trans car. but i have a wife & 3 young children so obviously i use the phone sometimes even when i'm in NY state. but i do greatly enjoy using the excuse "i was driving in NY so i didn't answer the cellphone".
We agree! I built a Heath calculator and a stereo kit! If you have a sliderule, hang on to it. Those are not meant as weapons against others; they were tools of masochism for perfectionists!!!
Actually it's "undefined" and therefore meaningless. Please don't rack up the GTO, I always would like to have had one, when I could have afforded the insurance and the fuel costs.
The gadgetry is a distraction and a benefit both. I would like to be able to program which show on my LeSabre's digital display quickly and have the rest require more button pushes to get to when I need it (oil life, e.g., miles to empty). I couldn't handle navigation.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
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Karl, thanks for that article. I just started working and since I'm not used to having any money, I'm living rather miserly right now and commuting with an unreliable tape deck and two speakers, one of which works sometimes. I've been planning on doing something about it, but I feel like it's not a great use of money whenever I come close. Off I go to the Audio board...
I completely understand where you are coming from three years ago my father was diagnosed with Alzheimer's and it made me realize that life holds no guarantees. So, two weeks ago I put down a deposit on the car that I had previously told myself could wait until "later". I wish you many happy moments with that beautiful car of yours.
Regards,
chillnyc
Handy to have in the glovebox of the GT for mileage calculations...LOL
My Dad used to run road rallies as navigator with the K&E.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Wait till you meet Tidester (our Mr. Physics). He does this stuff in his head....
Steve, Host
Keep the faith. I moved to L.A. 11 years ago this month to start working as an editorial assistant for Hot Rod magazine. I was bringing home $1,500 a month ($785 of which went for rent), and eating a lot of mac & cheese.
Obviously I couldn't foresee where I'd be today, but I was just goofy enough to believe in all the old cliches:
Hard work pays off
If you put your mind to it, you can accomplish anything
Dreams really do come true
Don't bet on the horses (wait, that one didn't really come into play here...)
Anyway, I continue to believe in the power of hard work, focus and passion.
This ends our irregularly scheduled inspirational post.
For the 2006 Civic coupe there are two engine choices -
The 1.8-liter i-VTEC that produces 140hp @ 6300 and 128lb-ft @4300rpm
The 2.0 found in the Si produces 197hp @ 7800 and 139lb-ft @ 6200rpm
I have seen published reports of 0-60 mph times for the Si ranging between 6.7 to 7.3 sec. It is my understanding that acceleration is largely dependent on the amount of torque - although horsepower must come into play as well. Explain?
The Si does not have much more torque than the DX, LX, or EX versions and it is at much higher rpms. So will the 1.8-liter acceleration times be that much worse than the 2.0-liter? I am also talking about the manual trans versions - and I am aware that the Si has a 6-spd and the others have a 5-spd. I would guess the 1.8-liter would be capable of pulling off 0-60 times in the 8 sec. range. Your thoughts as to all of this???
Thanks,
Dale
Car and Driver
Motor Trend
Road and Track
Autoweek
Wards
The Car Connection
Detroit Free Press
Maybe more. For the most part they are probably the best reviews I have seen for any GM vehicle in quite a long time (except for maybe the new Z06). Many have even liked it more than the MX-5.
Curious as to Edmunds take?
So it bring up some questions -
Did all the reviewers get some great free gifts? Better than usual
Did GM really produce this vehicle? Or is it secretly a joint venture with BMW?
Or maybe Lutz still has what it takes?
So, what matters isn't peak torque, but instantaneous torque (average torque is a decent measure). The Si engine has 139lb-ft @ 6200rpm, but how long can it keep a torque output nearly that high? My guess is that between 6000 and 8000rpm, it makes around 130+ lb-ft. What matters though, if you're drag racing, is how much torque it makes at 3000, 4000, and 5000rpm. I'm sure you can find that out pretty easily, just look at Sport Compact Car articles (online) for RSX-S dyno sheets.
The new Civic is really close to 3000lbs though.
Curious as to Edmunds take? Comments coming Sunday night.
So it brings up some questions -
Did all the reviewers get some great free gifts? Better than usual? Hey now, I thought I had the market cornered on cynicism in this discussion.
Did GM really produce this vehicle? Or is it secretly a joint venture with BMW? Can't be, the styling is too well executed. :P
Or maybe Lutz still has what it takes? After meeting and speaking with Lutz several times I'd like to see him knock one out of the park -- and get full credit for it. No matter what anyone's opinion is of him, he's got one hell of an impressive history/resume -- plus he's really a great guy in person.
Any comments or thoughts you'd like to share?
Any comments or thoughts you'd like to share?
Sorry. I didn't pass over those questions on purpose. I remembered them last night and was like, "Oh yeah, I didn't answer that one yet."
But, my answer is going to be pretty boring. Basically I feel like there are good and bad automotive journalists, and I think the biggest differentiators comes down to two things:
1. Doing the necessary research so that you really understand a cars abilities and how they stack up to likely competitors
2. Being willing to actually make a critical statement when it's deserved
Too often I see these elements come together to produce bad reviews, meaning too often I think journalists say to themselves, "Well, I could do an in-depth analysis of this car, understand it's strengths and weaknesses versus the competition, and then write an in-depth review. But that would mean doing a lot of work, and I might very likely find some real problems with this car, which if I report in my story I'll potentially risk my access to future press cars from the same manufacturer. Hmmm, probably better to just do a standard gloss-over of the details and basically write an entertaining, but not particularly informative, review."
That's my definition of what makes a bad automotive journalist. As far as who? Well, Mom always said if you can't say something nice...
was that a tweak you are throwing in?
my brother in law had one of those the first year it had the front strut suspension. i remember thinking, it's like a k-car(without the deal). :confuse:
>if you can't say something nice...
I've been irritated with a lot of reviews of cars where there's a negative overall slant and sometimes it's a part of a magazine's bias--even when it's a broad reader base magazine. Just because a writer doesn't like a particular company's offerings they don't have to write a totally negative review, but they can make honest, negative reports which would be helpful to others looking for something different in their car than the reviewer wants to see in cars.
I have found a common and irritating technique to give a negative review. Make each paragraph end with a negative.
"The car gets good mileage. The layout of the controls is acceptable. The car has nice wheels but the motor has a drumming sound like the previous motor from company XXX."
I receive it better when the dislikes are clumped and the likes are grouped together. Facts are nice and opinions can be stated as personal likes as long as it's clear different folks may want different things from a car than the reviewer.
I think the negative twist at the end of the paragraph is a sign of a poor journalist. Just give it straight. It's possible to say nice, bad, and honest; maybe not easy, but possible. Right Karl?
BTW. This is not in reference to any reviews Karl has written. It's after reading lots of reviews since 02 when car shopping and being irritated with a certain consumer magazine along with lots of newspaper syndicated reviews that show up in local, weekly and city newspapers.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,