The Future Of The Manual Transmission

chillnyc

As a person who just recently put down a deposit for a new BMW I lost count at how many times the salesperson made the mistake of putting Automatic on the purchase order when I had made it clear from the beginning that I would like a manual transmission. It makes me sad to know that more people will not learn how to drive a manual transmission just for the sake of knowing. When my cousins and I were learning to drive in the early 90's our parents made sure that we knew how to drive a manual transmission and ever since then that is what we prefer to drive. I guess we are apart of a dying breed.

nippononly

we are a dying breed alright...

:-/

shipo

The question in my mind (as with many of y'all) is whether we three pedal drivers are a "dying breed" or if we are the victims of a slow but relentless genocide inflicted upon us by the manufacturers and dealers. Just for kicks I tried to configure a new Passat with a leather interior and the http://www.vw.com configurator informed me that I needed to opt for one of the two satellite radio options (ugh, if you say so) and the slushbox tiptronic transmission. What's up with that? Is it really true that VW is forcing an automatic on those of us who want a leather interior? Geez, I thought that they were being dumb by not offering three pedals under the dash for the VR6 mill, then this pops up. I'm thinking that the word "dumb" doesn't begin to describe the folks at VWoA.

So, for the folks who are seriously looking at the new Passat as their next ride, you can have either the Leather Interior (and the manditory satellite radio) OR a true manual transmission. Hmmm, how about a base Passat and then have aftermarket leather put in it?

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

As my typical driving profile of the last decade has recently changed (as in more than doubled from about 12K miles per year to somewhere south of 30K miles per year), my automotive requirements have changed as well, at least for the next year or two. What that means is that my business will be forced to buy my next car instead of leasing it, and that in turn means that my next car will most likely not be another BMW.

So, with all of that in mind, I'm casting my eyes further a field and seriously looking at iron that can be had with the following attributes:

Non-negotiable items:
- Price: ~$32,000 (out the door)
- Highway MPG: greater than 30 whilst operating at 75 mph
- Acceleration: less than 7 seconds to 60 mph
- Manual transmission (SMGs and DSGs need not apply)
- Leather interior
- Good (but not necessarily great) audio system
- Four doors
- Room for four sub-6’ adults
- Enough room with rear seats folded down to fit a bike
- Attractive styling (to my eyes, I don’t care what other folks think)

Negotiable items:
- Power memory seats
- Climate control (preferably two zone)
- Rain sensing wipers
- Rear Wheel Drive

Cars under consideration:
New Passat -- Based upon my previous post the new Passat is eliminated based upon the exclusive leather/manual transmission issue
New E90 325i -- I’ve eliminated this one due to price (even with ED factored in).
New IS250 -- I’ve eliminated this one because it seems that it will be sporting the smallest interior in the class and that will preclude four adults
TSX -- I’ve not yet tried this one but on paper at least it seems that it might be just big enough inside, so other than its reputed buzzy low torque high RPM motor, it seems to have the goods. I’m certainly going to give it a spin or three before deciding.
MINI Cooper -- I haven’t been inside one yet so I cannot tell if it is big enough or drivable enough at sustained freeway speeds.
Audi A3 -- So far at least, the single car that doesn’t require me to do without too many of my Negotiable items (and none of my non-negotiable items). I’d have to make do with FWD and no power memory seats.

So, any other suggestions for a sporty, good performing sedan with a manual transmission in the $30K range?

Best Regards,
Shipo

ateixeira

Legacy GT limited.

But if you want a folding seat it has to be a wagon, the sedan's seats are fixed.

And if you want a GT wagon with a 5 speed, hurry up and buy a 2005 because the 2006s will only come in auto.

It won't get 30mpg but it costs a lot less than some of the others you've mentioned so that savings can pay for gas. You can get them for around $28 grand or so I believe.

I doubt you'll fit a bike inside a Cooper or A3. Why not get a roof rack?

Also consider a MazdaSpeed 6 (AWD, turbo 2.3l engine) if you're early enough to put down a deposit because they'll be limited.

Subaru Forester XT if you don't mind the SUV look. It won't get 30mpg either, though.

-juice

stickguy

My first thought (before seeing your list) was the A3. It does come (optional) with power seats, including the nifty adjustable lumbar. Don't thin it has memory though.

Rule out the mini due to the space requirements. No power seats either, but a nice try at rationalizing it.

The TSX is a nice package. Does rev a little high on the highway, but you need to try it out to see if it bothers you.

Don't rule out the IS until you try it out. Might be roomier than you think. Don't think you will get your bike in though (not sure if the seats fold down). You might have a $$ problem though once you get options on it, and good luck finding that stick!

Other thoughts are: Volvo S40/V50 (the wagon gives more room).

And how about the '06 Accord EXL V6 6 speed? SHould have all the goodies that the TSX has, and a lot more room.

Maybe a Subaru Legacy limited 6 speed? At least the rear wheels turn!

And last but not least, the G35 6 speed.

kyfdx

MINI: If the IS250 is too small for four, you can forget this one...

TSX: Sub-7 second 0-60? Maybe.... close... probably not..

New Passat: Sub-7 0-60? No idea.. do you think so?

A3: Seems like you might have designed the paramaters for this one..

If you can live without the speed, I'd suggest a Jetta TDI for that much commuting...

Other than that... Some kind of Subaru? 30+ MPG might be a stretch, but other than that, I think you can find something to qualify there..

regards,
kyfdx

stickguy

As to the 6, I don't think the rear seats will go down either.

stickguy

do think alike.

kyfdx

S40, V50 T5 models.... 218 HP.. Not sure about getting out for under $32K with all of your other requirements, though.....

Good one, stickguy!

shipo

I'm looking for a car that I can put the bike in because I take it to work with me and ride at lunch. I'm thinking that it wouldn't be too smart to mount an expensive bike on the roof of a car that is parked all day long in full view of a busy expressway. So, the bike requirement remains, roof racks need not apply. ;-)

As for y'alls comments, in no particular order...

The MINI, yeah, I'm guessing that the bike won't fit, but geez does that sound like a fun ride. ;-)

The Subarus in various guises, the only Subie that wasn't a complete train-wreck on my personal Style-O-Meter was the ill fated SVX. Well, maybe that's overstating it a bit; the current Legacy just leaves me cold.

The MazdaSpeed 6 is very cool looking and even looks very functional, however, after my first experience with a Mazda I'm kind of allergic to them. Still, I might give it a quick look.

The TSX, I had simply assumed that it would be a sub-7 second performer; maybe the lack of low end torque is just too much of a problem. As for interior room and a bike, that too is a possible issue.

The IS250 is looking to have the smallest interior in the class and yet have the heaviest weight. It's interesting but I don't think sub-7 seconds is a possibility here, and that coupled with its packaging is probably going to eliminate it. I'll take a look when it comes out none-the-less.

The Volvos (and Saabs too for that matter), every time I've walked into a Swedish dealership and asked about a car with three pedals I've been laughed at. They won't even discuss the car with me much less order one that way. Then again, I now live in New England and what with all of the Tree Huggers around here that seem to love Swedish cars, maybe I should try again.

The Accord? I didn't know that a V6 6-Speed Sedan was in Honda's lexicon. If it is then I'll give it a try. That said, I'm thinking that the latest Accord is rather ugly, so then again, maybe I won't.

The Jetta TDI... I drove one last week. Love the thought of 46 mpg; however, I cannot live with the lame acceleration. Yeah the torque numbers look good but this thing still felt like it took more than ten seconds to get to sixty.

That brings me back to the A3, again. While I haven't tried getting my bike inside, it looked like it would take my bike with relative ease. I'm going to have to take a closer look on that one.

Best Regards,
Shipo

stickguy

I see an occasional stick Saab or Volvo, so they do exist or can be found. You are also in SAAB country now, so...

THe 6 speed Accord sedan is new for '06, and comes with the revised styling (most notably new rear end treatment). From the spy shots, looks pretty nice. Probably going to be rare, but should meet all your other requirements, and be plenty fast. Think of it as a more conservative and cheaper TL. Worth a look at least.

The A3 still seems like a good bet. Get of yer duff and get out there to drive one!

shipo

The A3 still seems like a good bet. Get of yer duff and get out there to drive one!"

Oh whip me, beat me, treat me mean and tell me to drive an A3! Sometimes life is just hard. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

The G35... Hmmm, well it's a little long on price, probably by a thousand or so, it has no fold down rear seats (at least I can find no reference to suggest otherwise), and it ranks pretty low on my Style-O-Meter, however, the single biggest issue is the lousy fuel economy of the G35. Given the miles I'm driving I'm thinking that something in the A3 category would save a little over a gallon of gas per day when compared to the G35. Hmmm, at about $3.00 per day (at today's prices), that equates to about $750 per year in just gas savings, and that's just for my working commute, any other driving would just increase that savings.

Best Regards,
Shipo

nippononly

at least two of your front runners there (TSX, A3) actually do BETTER in automatic guise if fuel economy is your thing.

Although with the A3 that is a mixed bag: in the city the auto does better, on the highway the manual wins, by one point each time.

How can Sube be dropping the manual shift on the Legacy GT? One more erosion of manual availability to add to the pile...

:-(

ateixeira

Do you like the new-look '06 WRX wagon? If not maybe a Saab 9-2x Aero? Those now get a 2.5T engine with 230hp (and that's under-rated).

nippon: only from the wagon, the sedan still has a manual thankfully.

Another - MazdaSpeed 6. That looks like a good alternative to the Leg GT.

-juice

shipo

..., maybe. I stopped in at a VW dealership this evening and found out that it actually meets several of my criteria that I thought it didn't. For instance, I've been under the impression that the Passat couldn't hold my bicycle. Nope. It has fold down rear seats, and the space that that frees up is way more than enough for me to fit any of my three bikes (maybe even two at once) back there. I also thought that the 2.0T was incapable of delivering both 30 mpg or better (it attained an EPA rating of 31 with the manual transmission) and sub-seven second 0-60 times (it gets a 6.9 rating from VWoA). So, that leaves me still wondering about a leather/manual transmission combo that is allegedly not going to be available.

Best Regards,
Shipo

600kgolfgt

The six-speed manual transmission is supposed to be available this fall, according to VW.

habitat1

Shipo,

Late to this forum and sorry to hear your BMW days are numbered.

I looked at your purchase criteria and, with one major exception, I would wholeheartedly recommend the Acura TL 6-speed. I now have 19,000 miles on my 2004 and it is far superior to anything you are considering in every way, sans one. It does not have folding rear seats and therefore cannot cart your bike(s) around without removing the front wheel.

Too bad. I get 30+/- mpg on the highway, the TL 6-speed has been tested at 5.8 to 6.3 0-60, and the amenities leave nothing to be desired. I picked up my 2004 for $33.3k including Navigation and the HPT tire package. Although the price has gone up slightly, the deals have gotten better, so I believe $32.5k is feasible. Or you could nix the nav system and save close to $2k.

If the bike carrying requirement is a must, then it's a must. If you can believe this, now that I'm back in the sports car market, I am considering spending a mere $42k MORE than the $58k Porsche Boxster S to get a 911 S. Virtually all of that premium would be to get a dimunitive rear seat to be able to cart my daughters around, the oldest of which claims she would rather ride in our MDX anyway. Go figure.

Good luck.

habitat1

Just re-read your post and noticed that your budget was $32k "out the door", so the TL may be just above your budget, even without the Nav.

Anecdotally, back in the fall of 1994 I had a $18k budget for replacing my ailing coupe with a four door sedan to serve me and my then preganant wife. I was close to getting a Nissan Altima automatic. But after test driving a 1995 Maxima SE 5-speed, hearing my wife's refusal to drive an automatic (I'm pregnant, not handicapped), and considering my intent to keep the car for at least 7-10 years, I painfully managed to stretch my budget by another $2,500. The one I bought had no options other than $1,000 ABS brakes. No sunroof, no leather, no Bose, no memory seats.... But it had Nissan's stellar V-6 as opposed to the much more loaded Altima's less reliable 4-banger.

In hindsight, that $2,500 budget stretching I did in 1994 was a smart move. The Maxima served me exceptionally well for 10 years and 150,000+ miles before I bought the TL. And, since it wasn't worth much in a trade, we decided to keep it at our second house. I drove it extensively when we were there a couple of weeks ago and, although it doesn't have a fraction of the modern conveniences of my TL, it still runs like new and reminds me of my more modest roots. Not a bad reality check when you are contemplating a $100k Porsche. My plan is to keep it and hand it down to the daughter we had 6 months after it was purchased. Who, along with her younger sister, will learn how to drive on a stick.

Again, good luck on your choice.

shipo

It is not yet certain that I'm leaving the BMW fold, and if I do, I'll be back as soon as my driving distances get back to normal. My current consulting gig is something of an aberration and that is what is driving me to change the criteria which I've used in shopping for my last five cars. What with launching a new business this year my business partner and I are simply making sure we keep enough cash available until the revenue stream comes on line from the new business. So, long story short, an E90 is still most likely in my future, it's the 'when' that is of issue. Next year? Hmmm, maybe 30% odds. Three or four years from now? Probably more like 90% odds.

Regarding the TL, there is no question that the car has the goods as far as power, amenities, and economy are concerned, however, I find its looks even less pleasing to my eye than the E60. I know lots of folks love the look, I'm sure that my not liking is probably something of a character flaw, but I'll just have to live with that. ;-) I don't remember where I read it here in the TownHall, and as such I'm not able to properly credit the author of the comment, however, someone likened the look of the new TL to the look of a 'Paper Airplane', and that sort of fits with what my eye sees.

At this point, if my current contract is extended beyond say next summer (I'll most likely know in the Nov/Dec time frame), then I'm thinking that I'll probably opt for a three pedal A3 SP, a car that really is a ball to drive.

Like your Maxima, I'm thinking that this next car will be a keeper well beyond my need for it as I have an eleven year old son who cannot wait to learn how to drive a stick. Even my eight year old daughter, who had a stroke when she was born and is mildly paralyzed on her left side, cannot wait to learn how to drive a stick too. Gee, I wish I had an old 'hand-me-down' A3 from my folks when I was in High School to drive around. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

habitat1

Good for your kids that they even know the difference between an automatic and a stick. We need more parents like you. My youngest daughter loved riding to school in my Honda S2000 and shifting from 1st to 2nd and back to 1st from the passenger seat. She was 5 at the time. The fact that we never exceeded 15 mph was inconsequential.

Good luck both with respect to your new car choice and your new business ventures. Not surprised to hear your an entrepreneur. Goes with shifting your own gears, if you know what I mean.

Bets regards to you.
Habitat

shipo

Thanks for the kind words... ;-)

And best regards to you and yours as well. Wow, 5 and already shifting, I'm going to have to introduce my son to her when they get to be of age. ;-)

Best Regards
Shipo

xkss

I still enjoy manual transmission over automatics and others.

I'm glad the new Pontiac Solstice only comes with a manual, at least from the start.

allfiredup

I'm a hardcore manual shifter. I've owned nine cars in my life and they've all been manuals. Eight have been Honda/Acuras and the current one is an '03 Maxima SE 6-speed.

I'm in the process of shopping for a new car (Maxima lease is up). I'm thinking smaller (isn't most everyone these days) and the Mazda3 and Honda Civic are my top picks at the moment. Finding a Mazda with the options I want with the 5-speed has been tough and Honda dealers around here don't have any new Civic 5-speeds yet. It's a little disheartening to see that the manual Civic gets two mpg LESS than the automatic.

andys120

According to Automotive News FoMoCo has contracted with Getrag to build sequential shift twin-clutch transmissions similar to the DSG offered in some Volkswagen and Audi models. They are automatic transmissions that can be operated in a manual mode and offer seamless transmission of power and lightning fast shifts.

Ford becomes the second large automaker to offer this torque converter-less gearshift promising increased fuel economy.

shipo

Does it have three pedals? Nope. Then it ain't a manual transmission. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

stickguy

yes it is. It's just an automatic clutch.

andys120

insofar as there is a future for the "manual" transmission it's the "automaticclutch"
DSG type shift which will become widespread just as the third pedal disappears.

shipo

Sorry, if it doesn't have three pedals, it ain't a manual. The term "Automatic" has nothing to do with the internal architecture of the transmission, it does however have everything to do with how it can be driven. If it can shift its own gears, it's an automatic. Period, full stop, the end.

Best Regards,
Shipo

banditboy

I guess all the discussion is on very expensive cars ...i just picked
up a 5 speed mazda 6... manaul.absolutely love it.
I have a auto for all my life andi took a decision that the next car will be a stick 5 years ago and picked up 1

i love it... i will never be going back ...now teaching my wife to drive one

nippononly

never go back to auto either - tried one once, boy was that ever a mistake. Longest 18 months of my life! :-P

Luckily, the brands I like to shop most - Honda, Subaru - still make plenty of manuals available. I have been a big fan of Toyota for many years, but have shifted my actual purchases away from them in recent years because it is just too hard to find a manual in stock if they even make one at all, and when you ask the salesman how long it would be for them to get a manual-equipped car in, they always look at you the same way at the Toyota store - like you are crazy. :mad:

ateixeira

Same experience here, we looked to 7 dealers but could not find a 4 cylinder 5 speed manual Camry with ABS.

Seems like a pretty basic request. No luck.

-juice

stickguy

I was watching the Price is Right the other day. In the showcase, there were 2 cars (1 in each). Both were manuals! Of course, this is because they tend to get the base strippo model on the show, but still, a pair of 6 speeds, so maybe all hope is not lost.

FYI, the 2 were a Jeep wrangler (4 cyl/6 speed), and off all things a GTO.

I do know what you mean about finding some models in stock. Toyota is hopeless, especially when you factor in their bizzaro options configurations. Usually if they have one, it's a stripper.

Honda is much better IMO. Most dealers actually tend to have some stock of manuals, and they are all equipped the same way (stick and auto), so it cuts down the frustration.

wale_bate1

That's because they "know their customers so well", as R&T recently put it. Even the ones walking away!

Playing percentages, I suppose they've got the formula correct, but I hate the lack of the option, even if only in sympathy (I don't need it anymore).

I believe Andy is correct though: with twin-clutch automatics arriving on the commercial scene, given their performance advantages and zero trade-off in economy, shifting gears for yourself is assured for the future. The left-leg workout, OTOH, may well be history more or less within a decade.

ateixeira

I have some mixed feelings, but if it can offer performance and economy and doesn't have a slush box, I'm willing to give them a shot.

-juice

stickguy

still aren't quite as flexible as a 3 pedal set up. Expecially the BMW seems to be somewhat of an on/off switch. omething about modulating or feathering the clutch just seems more pure to me.

Still, the Audi set up was fun to play with, but I still think that I would end up leaving it in auto mode if I had one.

andys120

I still think that I would end up leaving it in auto mode if I had one.

Maybe but, I'm an old time shifter forced by infirmity to drive a two pedal set-up. I find myself using the shiftability of the Steptronic in my Bimmer when I encounter long hills or particularly enjoyable roads. In traffic I'm happy to leave it in D.

As you prolly know the BMW SMG is not a twin-clutch setup and isn't highly regarded.

iluvmysephia1

or what-have-they from Toyota due here in the spring of '06 is going to come with a manual 5-speed standard. Small rigs like the Yaris deserve to be sold with manual tranny's, eh?

ateixeira

Same with the SMG in the Toyota MR2, I hated that.

I'll give these new dual-clutch models a shot. I'm curious to try VW's.

-juice

wale_bate1

Considering Audi developed it for the rally circuit (IIRC), I'm not surprised to find a Subie fan open to the possibility!
;-]

andys120

Yes that's right Wale, IIRC they used on the early Sport Quattros to pretty good effect.

ghulet

.......it's not so much that smaller cars (even midsize) cars don't have a manual transmission as 'standard', it's just that you can't find them, at least not with any desirable option combinations. The Echo/Yaris whatever has always had a 5-speed standard, but even the Echo was hard to find with one on any lot (at least here in Chicago). Try finding a Camry with a manual, or a Corolla LE with a sunroof, or an Accord EX with leather or a nav system, with a manual transmission. Not bloody likely, unless you shop across several states or are willing to wait weeks or even months.

nippononly

at RAV4s, which supposedly have a 5-speed manual as the "standard" transmission. In the entire Bay Area (at least all the dealers that allow an inventory search on-line, which is most but not all) there is exactly ONE 5-speed AWD model, out of about 15 dealers I tried. There was also one 5-speed FWD, that had my hopes up until I saw it was a front driver. I was over at San Francisco Toyota yesterday, drove an automatic and chatted with the lead salesman, who just chuckled when I said I would like a manual, and then told me that's not REALLY what I wanted, what with the hills in SF and all. I am so tired of that attitude. The product mix of most Toyota models proves conclusively that at Toyota, the manual is the optional transmission, not the standard one. They should just have the guts to raise the MSRPs $800, and call the manual the optional trans, the auto the standard.

Turns out the Outback Sport has gone up significantly in price, so has fallen to second place in the search. But at least at Subaru, it is fairly easy to find manuals, even among the more expensive models (but alas, not with any 6-cylinder car, tut tut).

pokerpro

This is my first post here, so I hope this is the appropriate forum. Anyway...

I want to buy a car that has a manual transmission, but I have no idea how to drive a stick shift. I just moved to a new city, so I don't know anybody who can teach me, and none of the local driving schools offers lessons for manual transmission cars. Anybody have tips on how I can learn?

I live in Las Vegas if anyone knows anything in the area.

Thanks in advance for your help.

ghulet

....don't do it in a new car. Find yourself an old, nasty Honda or Toyota (or Nissan, Mazda or Geo) and, really, you can teach yourself if you have enough road and enough patience if there's nobody around to teach you. European cars are harder to drive and shift, Japanese tend to be easiest. Don't go out and buy a brand-new car that you don't know how to drive (lots of people did this in the '70s during the oil embargo), not that you'll be able to find a manual, grrrr.

bhill2

Also, you should look in a bookstore or online for a guide to driving a stick. Actually, the owners' manual will give you a rudimentary idea, but you will eventually want more. Once you get to the place that you can drive it on the street, you may be able to find someone who can give you tips on the finer points, like the best gear to be in under different circumstances, when to upshift for better economy, when to downshift in anticipation of a curve or hill and so on. Actually mastering the basics of changing gears and operating the clutch is not that hard. You may end up driving in a lower gear than you could (and thus making more noise and burning more fuel) but that will seldom hurt the car. That leads into one piece of advice going into the learning process: it is better to be in a lower gear than necessary than to be in a higher gear than advisable, because in the latter situation you may not have the acceleration that you need if a light turns yellow or some such. Good luck. A stick shift, once mastered, is a thing of joy.

ateixeira

Get a beater with a well-worn clutch. The last thing you want is a new, grabby clutch.

First work on finding the friction point. Without using the throttle *at all*, release the clutch slowly until you get the car to inch forward ever-so-slightly without stalling. Get good at finding that point quickly, without stalling.

Master that first, the rest is easy.

Some tips:

* from a dead stop always start in 1st gear
* for a 90 degree turn, use 2nd gear
* for an exit ramp from a highway, 3rd gear is usually best

That should be enough to get you started.

-juice

stickguy

you can still find a stick at U-haul!

stickguy

Also, evenif they won't let you practice on their car, riding along with someone that knows what they are doing, and will explain as they go, will give you a good idea of the concepts going on.

Also, when you first practice, make sure it is in a large empty lot, preferably flat, with very little to hit!

I know people that never tried until they were driving the new car home, in traffic, and it isn't a good experience.

But, if you are reasonably coordnitated, you get the basics pretty quick so you can be functional. After that, you get better pretty quick with some practice.