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:shades: nice. but it's a stretch.
Even worse! Subaru has abandoned its roots. Alas. :sick:
Yeah, its ashame as we keep getting these "guaranteed trade in value" cards from Subaru (its factory backed, not a cheezy dealer promotion) but unfortunately, they no longer make anything of interest (Legacy GT Wagon manual).
I guess thats what happens when you get bought by Toyota. Other than worse NVH than the competition, I cant think of anything else to differentiate them.
In fact, is there ANY Mercedes available with a manual besides the C300 Sport? I think MB will beat Toyota to the punch.
GM, Toyota, and most of the ones building trucks (pick-ups, I mean) will continue to offer sticks in the smaller models for a long time, I think. It seems also that it is possible to find stick shift Jeeps out there.
I wonder idly whether Toyota will still offer manuals in its pick-ups after the last U.S.-bound Toyota car model with a manual has passed into history...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But seriously, it is just idle speculation at this point. I still say MB, then Toyota, as far as being the first to abandon manuals altogether. And I think VW, as pro-manual as it has been, is going to see a big shift in the next decade to the darn DSG, because it has received such high praise and seems to be widely liked. I think it's the best automatic I have ever driven, but it is still an automatic, which is no substitute for three pedals and a stick...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Though it's not like I had much choice. The Mazda5 came close (5MT available) but it was just way too small for what I wanted.
And as pro-manual as I am, I simply can't imagine all but the die-hardest of die-hards picking the manual for that van if it were offered.
But there are plenty of Toyotas where the manual is already extinct or will be shortly, that I think would sell in decent numbers of manuals if Toyota would only offer and build them. Including a couple of the Lexus cars (IS350, GS350). Camry, maybe even Avalon, certainly RAV4, Prius, the upcoming Venza (which will be 6-speed auto only)...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I wanted SPACE, I mean acreage, and you just about get that. 8 people *and* some cargo fit.
The lack of feedback people complain about meant a quiet and isolated ride in this context, so it was actually an advantage. The kids sleep like, well, like babies.
The steering is well weighted but it has less feedback than an Atari video controller.
The engine is a gem and makes up for it.
Funny thing is I commute in a Miata, which is pretty much the extreme opposite, and I like them both for their distinct, intended missions.
They have to keep them on Scions, the buyers are young and cost-conscious.
I'm not saying they are but if the US consumer is buying more than 90 percent of their vehicles in auto configuration it might be hard to convince a board of directors not to move in that direction with a slumping line like Scion. We might get to wait a while but because Toyota doesn't seem as committed to manuals as some who knows what could happen.
Then, for 3 more months, they only had 2 (tC and the redesigned xB). We will see what we will see in 2008.
But as for keeping the cars cheap for cost-conscious young buyers, I fully expect Toyota to begin making a cheapo CVT standard in all the lower-end Toyota/Scion models before too long, after which Toyotas with manuals will be rapidly on their way to extinction.
As for the poster with the manual '07 Camry, I applaud you! I half expected Honda to drop the manual for the '08 Accord (but was hoping against it and was sooo happy to see my hopes were confirmed!), and I fully expect Toyota to drop the manual for the next-gen Camry in about 3 years. So get 'em while you can!
In the meantime, Toyota makes manual-shift Camrys so hard to get by building so few with such little selection that it is a turn-off even for people who really want a stick.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
From what I've seen of Scion buyers in general is that people are only price-conscious with the xA/D and xB. Some of them might buy manuals because it's cheaper, but I wouldn't consider them an overwhelming majority.
Now the tC on the other hand... Most people I've seen, talked to, heard about, etc. bought a manual not because it was cheaper, but because it was more fun. A ton of young people, if not most, bought it as their first stick car, myself included. The main reasons you'd hear for a stick in a tC are "more power" and "it's cooler." Which leads me to believe that Scions will be some of the only cars in Toyota's lineup with manuals in the future. Walking through the new and used lots, you will see a huge percentage of manual cars, more than most brands I've seen. If they weren't selling, dealerships wouldn't order so many.
One of those media organizations was the one you are posting on. It was posted by Edmunds Observer in December. What ever happened to the car for the new generation that was only going to be sold on line? What ever happened to not going mainstream?
What possible reason could someone have other than cost to have a manual in a xB? Maybe the tC but the box on wheels is a mini mini van and hardly gets any sportyness from having a manual. Still I was surprised they even bothered bringing a replacement for the xA. It never sold well in the first place.
Scion never made it out of the Toyota show room and like many have said before they never achieved a separate identity. To be mentioned in the same breath as Hummer and Jag as a loser has to be new territory for Scion. I wonder what percentage of Scions sold are manuals?
I think Scion was only designed to look like it wasn't mainstream rather than actually not be mainstream.
What possible reason could someone have other than cost to have a manual in a xB? Maybe the tC but the box on wheels is a mini mini van and hardly gets any sportyness from having a manual. Still I was surprised they even bothered bringing a replacement for the xA. It never sold well in the first place.
Well, the xB only had 113hp originally. I drove a 118hp automatic Mirage, and spent most of my time flooring the accelerator to get up to reasonable speeds, so I can imagine why someone would want a manual in such a car. It may not be sporty, but it's still a fairly fun car for its owners. Or at least, the old one was - I'm not liking the bland new one.
Scion never made it out of the Toyota show room and like many have said before they never achieved a separate identity. To be mentioned in the same breath as Hummer and Jag as a loser has to be new territory for Scion. I wonder what percentage of Scions sold are manuals?
A large percentage are sold as manuals. There are a lot of Scions being sold - you'll see tCs all over any college campus. However, I haven't been seeing many of the 2008s, so there might actually be a slump. I don't think that slump is specific to just Scion, though, as a lot of other automakers are getting hit a little hard this year. From the overall sales they've been enjoying since introduced in 2004, I would hardly consider them on the level of Hummer and Jaguar.
C'mon Boaz... your own posts indicate that you know several other reasons to have a manual besides sportiness and initial cost- How about increased control, increased fuel economy, lower long term costs, maximizing the available powerband... and just liking it more?
As for making it out of the showroom, Scion as a brand is only about 3 years old, and I don't think Toyota expected it to make it out of Toyota showrooms this soon, if ever. They want it to be a niche brand after all (going so far as to limit production so as not to exceed a preset sales limit), with so few sales that it wouldn't support much of a dealer network if they were stand-alone dealers.
As for fans of the manual shift like me, Scion is a ray of hope in the bleak world of Toyota...about half the Scions on the lot at my local dealer at any given time are manuals, and this is a dealer that doesn't stock a single manual shift Toyota unless they mistakenly get one in trade with another dealership.
That $1000 extra for the automatic makes a lot of difference in the Scion world...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2007 Biggest Losers, Winners, Movers and Shakers Predicted by Edmunds.com
Under the biggest losers section, "Toyota’s Scion wound down its previous models and introduced some new ones, including a new version of the xB. Many have suggested the Scion is going too mainstream with the xB “Camryized” as one young designer-to-be called it."
Not a praise of the automatic transmission as much it is an annoying feature of their manual ones. Toyota gears these cars ridiculously short to maximize the performance of the Camry's 2.4 liter 4-banger; I would frequently have to upshift to second in the middle of a large intersection while making a left turn or get uncomfortably close to redline and all the annoying touchiness that entails in first gear. Either that or start in second all the time, which is what I started doing.
That $1000 extra for the automatic makes a lot of difference in the Scion world...
For some guys, yeah. But most people add that much to the base price of any car anyway, because "it has to be automatic."
MB dropped the MT from the 2008 SLK350 but still offers it in the 280.
-Frank
I personally wonder how the car eunthanists who enjoy the manual shifting will deal, especially if the numbers for manuals continue to drop.
I've enjoyed all the manuals I've driven over the years--66 VW bug, 69 VW Bus, 79 Datsun 210, 86 Mazda B2000, 87 Jetta, 00 Focus, and 02 Accord--but the 08 is, I think, by far the best. It feels like Honda put some money into engineering and building it.
Niche vehicles are not big sellers. That doesn't mean they aren't profitable; look at Mini/BMW. It is, however, important to understand your niche.
Toyota created Scion because Toyota got "too fuddy-duddy" for the younger folks. So they come out with something "edgy," or a couple of over-styled underpowered transport pods based on underpinnings they had sitting on the shelf. They follow that up by making the next generation not so edgy.
I do not find this surprising. In the clothing catalogs, they call this "one size fits most."
Actually I think the transmission in my wife's old '91 Isuzu Impulse (Geo Storm) was one of the best transmissions I have ever used. It felt a little clunky, but was very sold, the syncros were fantastic, it was just all around a great transmission.
That 00 Focus used the MTX75, its in the Mondeo and derivatives. I found that eh, it sucked until it was warmed up, or until I switched to the Ford synthetic transmission fluid. The trick before that stuff came along was to use Redline MTL and the fiction additive for the Explorer's rear end.
":/ I've always wanted to learn, I guess I shoulda did when I first started driving, 5 years ago, huh?"
Can we assume your SE-R is not a manual?
I have to agree with the idea that Toyota has made a very good living off of Vanilla and I shouldn't have been surprised that they have toned down the offerings they started with by creating Scion. The tC out sold the other two cars in its first year of release so I am sure that because it had a more conservitive styling Toyota must have seen the writing on the wall.
Caravans/Voyagers came with manuals early on, probably coupled with the 4 banger that was the base engine. They were pretty rare back then though.
The main issue is that it's handy to be able to walk through to the back of the van, and a floor shift would get in the way.
Mazda5 5 speed anyone?
Funny thing though, Chrysler still manufacturers minivans with a stick shift, you just can't buy them in North America.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Are we missing the point, here?
Scion's mission was to bring in younger buyers, and to give Toyota an outlet for them to try amibitious styling without alienating the core Toyota customer.
I think they've succeeded, mostly. The buyer aren't always as young as they had hoped, but they added lots of incremental sales without cannibalizing the Corolla or the Yaris.
To be honest I would have made even the Yaris a Scion.
Using a sub-brand insulates Toyota. They can take risks. Sell a box. Econo-boxes even. With no ill effects to Toyota's image.
I think the experiment worked mostly as intended.
Like I said before, Edmunds listed them as a big loser I was only pointing that out. I see the new xD has more of a Matrix look than the old xA. The new xB is a lot more rounded while still van looking. But where they did fail is no one has bought the idea that the Scion is not a Toyota.
I do believe the Yaris should have been added to the Scion line as another entry level car but other than that Scion has turned into anything but a cool youthful magnate. The problem every manufacturer has is when they try to put kids in a box. Honda attracts them better by making a car they simply like and supporting an after market like no one else does.
One interesting tidbit is that there will be several transmission settings, adjusting speed and smoothness. I was under the impression that a dual-clutch setup would be ultrafast AND ultrasmooth, like the Borg-Warner system VW has. Apparently, Nissan's version on the GT-R (which is also a Borg-Warner unit) is about as fast but isn't as smooth, so I'm a little confused. We'll find out soon enough once all of these DCTs hit the US market.
Ahh, the "hill holder" clutch...eh no they don't, at least my Legacy doesn't have it.
According to Nissan's GT-R website, the shifts take 0.5 seconds (500 milliseconds) in normal mode and 0.2 seconds (200 milliseconds) in "R" mode. That is hardly "fast" and very dissapointing for a DCT, especially in a so-called "supercar". The normal mode shifts are considerably slower than the AMG Sportshift slushbox, which was a weak point in the SLK55 I drove a couple of years ago. Nissan is posting some impressive acceleration times with the GT-R, but I can't help but think the feel of it would leave something to be desired for those looking for immediate response to driver input.
The main problem with DCT's performance right now is preselection of the gears. There are noticeable delays when you shift outside of what the computer predicts or can handle. I took my friend's DSG-equipped GTI out last night after a big meet and downshifting from 6->3 before an on-ramp led to some moments where I'm wondering "Uh, did this thing break?" At least I know how long my 6->3 shifts will take, and I can plan accordingly without having an accelerator that won't accelerate.
Now, the Lexus IS-F's shift speed of 0.1 seconds is impressive, especially for a slushbox. But I guess with the torque converter locked up from gears 2 through 8, it's no longer so slushy...
On a positive note, 15 out of 16 cars at the GTI meet last night were manuals, including my own, with the lone exception being my friend's Fahrenheit which only comes with the DSG.
I think this is an often repeated, but misused or misunderstood analogy.
Sure, if I'm forced to hold my hands on the wheel of my 911 and wait until the whistle blows, I'd have a tough time shifting my manual transmission in the time some Game Boy expert flipped the paddle on a Tiptronic.
But that's NOT the issue, IMO. You yourself have experienced the "pregnant pause" that occurs for that 0.2, 0.5 or whatever seconds while the transmssion is in limbo. That is WAY longer than the actual time my car would be in limbo when I'm shifting a 6 speed - unless I actually wanted to feather the clutch on engagement or hold it in for some other reason. A manual transmission is limited by the speed of the person shifting, but the engagement itself is positive and there is no additional preganat pause thrown in unless the driver choses to. And, as you have experienced, the difference is magnified when you do multiple gear shifts or downshifts in a way that some computer chip wasn't programmed to understand.
I've driven a half dozen or more high end SMG's and DSG's and felt that they all had an element of delay and "limbo" that was unacceptable to me. Much better than most slushboxes, but still not acceptable. The BMW M3 SMGII was my first real experience in a high end SMG and it made me run back to my Honda S2000 after a 10 mile test drive. I suspect that the majority of buyers who think even Ferrari's SMG is great are coming from the slushbox direction and not the manual transmssion direction in forming that opinion. Certainly, that is the case for the 911 Turbo Tiptronic, where my dealer claims about 80% "wish I had gotten the 6-speed manual" when asked. The new Turbo Tiptronic was promoted by Porsche as being faster than the manual, but the complaints over the lack of complete control and unexpected hesitation abound.
DSGs and SMGs (and all other automatic transmissions of their ilk) are great as replacements the automatic transmission, however, they are a poor substitute for a true manual transmission. :shades:
Best Regards,
Shipo
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
We had a friend here from Africa not that long ago. They had never been to the US and to say the least their eyes were as big as they could be. They were from a small city and had never seen automatic doors till they got to LAX. Seeing a escalator was amazing to them and after a ride on a city bus in Orange county one young man leaned over to me and asked, "does anyone have to drive a standard shift in your country?" I smiled and assured him that some do, but very few have to. The wife of our guest wanted to know if we had moving sidewalks in the city like the airports she had been to. I said no we still had to walk in most of our cities, even in California where we all drive to anything more than two blocks away.
That is an LA thing not a California thing.
And in SF, parking at your destination can often mean the car is more than two blocks from where you are actually going, and on occasion I have walked a couple of miles rather than get in the car, drive the distance, and search for parking again.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Actually after being absent for several years, they reintroduced the "Hill Holder" clutch on the 04 model year Forester (I think they've always had it overseas).
-Frank
When I was in Africa the only Automatics I saw were MB and some BMWs. They were most often driven by officials so I am sure his perceptions were driven by that as well. Many of the people I met there took great delight in teasing me because they simply assumed I couldn't drive a stick. Other than driving from the right seat it wasn't so bad. Except those Toyota and Nissan Vans were not turbo charged and they were diesel so they were shall we say a bit sluggish. Didn't matter much because with the roads they have 80 KPH would have been reckless. Every Mini Van had body armor under them much like we have for off road racing. And still most of the touring companies had to replace them every two or three years.
I don't know about you and how much rain you are getting but we should get more than a foot of snow this week and some more this weekend. Best winter we have had in a long time.