Acura TL vs. Toyota Avalon



  • one3one3 Member Posts: 2
    Both cars are wonderful vehicles and you just have to figure out which is best for you ( or your mom)

    Funny you should say that, my mom test drove both Avalon and TL and loved them both, weve got a few others to look at but these two are definitely her front runners.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Your mom has excellent taste in cars.
  • billygatorbillygator Member Posts: 15
    I wasn't even originally considering the Avalon - I was trying to decide whether to spend more for a TL or settle for a loaded Maxima. But when I saw Avy, it was love at first sight! I've had my Limited for about 10 days.

    The TL is a great car - fun to drive, lots of technology, extremely sharp styling. But its smaller than I thought it would be, including the front seating as well as the back and trunk. I didn't mind the tauter ride, in exchange for the driving experience, which was first rate. But the space issue really caught me off guard.

    The Avalon has just as much technology that is important to me (Smart Key is awesome!), and the inside styling is breath taking to me - very fresh, but classic. I find the exterior styling a significant upgrade from the previous generation, and I'm surprised by the positive comments from the younger folks at work.

    After having compared these two quality cars, I agree with the crowd - it depends what your priorities are. My wife kids me that I'm 49 going on 65, and this geezer in training has decided its time for smoothness and comfort. I have happily transitioned from my long line of sport sedans to a big, nasty cruiser.

    ;) :shades:


    P.S. If you are thinking of buying an Avalon, make sure you pay attention to the feel of the front seats. They are the only real concern for me (and obviously an important detail).
  • evancdsevancds Member Posts: 7
    I would have to agree with alot of the comments previously made, but I have a slightly different perspective being 22.

    The TL has an extremely well executed interior. It's better than the Avalon in many aspects including the Nav, bluetooth, Seats (styling and comfort), and dash layout. The one thing I don't like is the flimsy feeling gas pedal which seems unusually cheap. The Avalon, however, does offer a few cool features such as smart key, fake wood steering wheel and shifter, ventilated seats, rain sensing wipers, and rear sunshade. The dash layout is dissapointing though.

    The TL definetly has a more sporty feel due to the tighter suspension which provides more feedback from the road. The Avalons suspension is a great deal softer providing an extremely smooth ride. As a result the Avalon is not as capable cornering at high speed, most notably while going over bumps.

    The TL has a standard VTEC with 270HP, but seems lacking in torque. This is evident while accelerating up inclines or from a stop. You hear the engine whine, but it seems sluggish off the line. The Avalon has plenty of HP and torque giving it impressive acceleration for such a large car (roughly half a second slower than a G35). Even more impressive are the MPG numbers for the powerful engine. Easily the most efficient for its power output.

    Driving Experience:
    For me the Avalon offered a more enjoyable ride overall. I enjoy the isolation it provides with its extremely quiet cabin, and soft suspension. As someone mentioned earlier, in the TL you feel like your going fast, but in the Avalon you really don't. The difference between perceived speed vs. actual speed for me is around 15mph, i.e. travelling 80mph feels like 65. The soft suspension is only problematic on high speed turns (20mph above speed limits) with bumps, and since I do most of my driving on streets and not on oval tracks, I prefer the bumps and potholes to be absorbed by the car and not by my kidneys. The Avalon also has very small turning radius, which is useful in urban situations since is it such a large car. While both are extremely well engineered vehicles, they offer very different driving experiences and the only way to decide which you prefer is to drive both cars. I chose the Avalon because even at 22, it is a better fit for my needs.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Excellent post!

    The Avalon is a very fast car, and with the new exterior styling, finally it no longer looks like a big Camry. However, I am surprised that a 22 year old would by one over a TL, but your analysis of the cars makes perfect sense. My wife chose the TL and I believe that the ride is not harsh at all, in fact, I think the ride is smoother than my old '96 Camry.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    I am surprised that someone at your young age would choose the Avalon. But you must be one sensible and level-headed young man because when I was 22 you couldn't pay me to even consider a 4-door, any 4-door!
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    But you must be one sensible and level-headed young man because when I was 22 you couldn't pay me to even consider a 4-door, any 4-door!

    LOL, me too :P

    But the Avalon is a very fast big car, and makes a lot of sense to buy regardless of age.
  • bodble2bodble2 Member Posts: 4,514
    "me too"

    You mean to say you're a level-headed young man, or you wouldn't consider a 4-door either? :P
  • bobob20032000bobob20032000 Member Posts: 69
    The Avalon seems like a nice car for someone like my grandfather but not for me. Its big, ugly, boring and expensive. The TL is a better value and its not a toyota. My parents have problems with their 1996 Toyota Avalon, power steering fluid leaks in 2002 (replaces the whole thing), 2 flat tires, battery dies when it is only 8 years old and recently got hit by a Jeep Grand Cherokee. Toyota quality is not satisfactory. Still waiting for estimates on repairs to the body. The body bent in and the lights got pushed into the car but still work. Now there is no reason to buy another Toyota ever, worst cars ever made, thats why the police and taxi drivers dont use them, they tend to fall apart. No way am I going to pay $35k for a toyota. The smart key is a cheaper version with a black dot on each door handle, the dynamic cruise control is located next to foglamp instead of inside, its just too cheap. The Acura TL is much better. You get more for your money and a manual is nicer too. But i have to agree that the new Avalon is much better than before but will still fail with poor quality and reliablility.

    My parents also own a 2003 Acura TL. Runs flawlessly, only problem was a recall on the transmission but that is the only problem. I trust Acura with their quality and reliablility. Acura also has better service than toyota (they wash and vacuum your car.

    The TL is my choice, no offense. But i would probably choose the Avalon when i am 80.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    battery dies when it is only 8 years old

    8 years is a long time for a battery to last, and Toyota didn't make the battery. I had a 96 Camry for 9 years and not one problem, the best car I ever owned in terms of reliability. I did, however, buy a new TL, and the jury is out on that car. The new Avalon is very fast, and not bad looking IMHO, but not my wife's taste. Toyota makes fine cars. It's not Toyota's fault a Jeep hit you. BTW, cabs is San Francisco use Camrys all the time. :P
  • bobob20032000bobob20032000 Member Posts: 69
    I guess Toyota is a decent car. I think the Camry is more reliable than the Avalon. I like the TL better, my 2003 TL is nicer than my Avalon, we bought the XL which is the base so its not as nice. Just waiting for estimates today on repairs by Toyota.
    The Jeep Grand Cherokee was at a stop sign and just backed up because it was almost hit by a speeding Benz driven by an old lady at an intersection. The driver drove up and realize he couldnt make it so he backed up and i quess didnt see us. But i think Toyota need to design the cars better so that a case like this will have no damage except maybe a scratch. But their cars are so cheap so i get a dent in the middle and the grille has fallen off.

    I guess i will consider a Toyota in the future. Probably the 2007 Toyota Camry or 2007 Lexus ES350.
  • bobob20032000bobob20032000 Member Posts: 69
    just got estimates.... $2248.70 for repairs.
  • gbrentgbrent Member Posts: 1
    does anyone know what the limited top speed for the 05 or 06 avalon is?
    please say where you got the answer, either by literature or by your actual road test. how does the car handle at max speed?
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I don't have exact numbers, but I think the Avalon is slightly faster than the TL. As far as handling at that speed, I have know idea. I test drove the Avalon and did not feel as confident going fast in the Avalon as I did in the TL.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    What pupose is there with the 'top speed' indication?
  • roberturobertu Member Posts: 15
    gbrent, you asked "Does anyone know what the limited top speed for the 05 or 06 avalon is?"

    I think I read somewhere that it's 179 miles per hour, or something like that. I think the 06 is faster than the 05, but not as fast as the 05 used to be since they decreased the horse power from 280 to 268. Hope this helps with your decision. You are making a decision, right?

    ROBERTU :blush:
  • hondaconvert1hondaconvert1 Member Posts: 60
    The horse power remains the same for both 05 and 06 models. It is now mandatory to measure the HP performance on a vehicle with the A/C on which means ~10-12HP less...
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    This discussion of 'top speed' I believe is misleading. :confuse:

    Top speed is not dependent on what the speed gauge indicates and is not dependent on the horsepower rating.

    Think of it...say that you hit the 'top speed' on the speed gauge on the flats...then you went on a hill. Do you think that the car would organically slow down? Same as the horsepower...not a direct indicator.

    Again...not sure what you all are doing trying to figure out the 'top speed' of an Avalon.
  • roberturobertu Member Posts: 15
    delmar, you posted the question "...say that you hit the 'top speed' on the speed gauge on the flats...then you went on a hill. Do you think that the car would organically slow down? ...[I'm] not sure what you all are doing trying to figure out the 'top speed' of an Avalon."

    delmar, if speed wasn't important, why do we measure it?

    ROBERTU :blush:
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    You miss the point. The question others were posting was TOP SPEED on the gauge. Do you all really think you will base your car decision on the maximum speed on the dial? Geez.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I want warp speed!!! or is it wrap speed? :P
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Was looking to get out of years of SUVs, wanted a sports sedan that was comfortable, fun to drive, and provided reasonable economy. Shopping list (in order): TL, G35, Maxima, 300. The Avalon not even on my list - until I stopped by a Toyota dealer and actually drove a 2005 Touring.
    Avalon vs. TL - Power - about equal - both cars have great engines/trannies (see below)
    Avalon vs. TL - Size and comfort - Avalon - not close
    Avalon vs. TL - Interior design/egronomics - Avalon (didn't particulary like the red/white/blue gauges on the TL) The Av is very clean, simple, and elegant.
    Avalon vs. TL - Handling/Ride - a hard sell to push this into the Av corner as well because the TL is certainly a tighter car in corners much more like a 'sports' sedan - but the TL (and Maxima) do suffer from a good deal of torque steer which I find annoying and possibly dangerous. The ride is definitely smoother and quieter on the Av with no discernable tugging of the steering wheel..
    Avalon vs. TL - value - pretty much a wash, the Av can be cheaper but they are very close optioned the same way.
    Avalon vs. TL - reliability - the jury is still out on the Av although when was it that Toyota last made a bad car? I now have 12k on mine and there has been no need to take it back to Toyota! The TL generally outstanding except for those pesky $4000.00 transmission replacements. Give the nod to the TL on this one only because first year cars should be a little more troublesome, even if mine hasn't.
    Avalon vs, TL - economy - about a wash although I do get 27 mpg overall and can run regular if I want to give up a little power
    Avalon vs. TL - desirability - TL because it is an Acura. Avalon will continue to have that rep. as an upsized Camry for old folks until the word gets out.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Ahh...those transmission replacements are not inherent in the current version of the TLs. I believe it was in the year 2000?

    Also...the torque steer does not come in play in the 2005 TL. No tugging of the steering wheel on the TL. I believe that the difference is that there is no road feel in the Avalon (believe that consumer report indicated the Avalon is disconnected from the road?)

    As for running regular...all cars with 'premium recommended' can run regular fuel. The engine computer can make that adjustment with ease.

    I would say that it comes down to whether you prefer a 'touring' or a 'sports luxury' vehicle.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    delmar1 - torque steer - not the one I drove - most apparent accelerating hard out out a corner - also reference some current road tests in R&T and C&D which do mention it. In the TL, however, most drivers would never push it to that point. You are right, however, they are different vehicles - kind of depends on what you like. Actually, of all the cars I 'interviewed' I would tell you that the M35 was the best balance between a 'tourer' and a 'sports sedan' with the 530 a close second. The M was something about $45k, the BMW $52k both beyond what I wanted to spend or pay to maintain (BMW). My buddies 2003 225hp TL just had its transmission replaced at 30k miles(warranty) - and this is his wife's car - so I'm not sure that Acura has successfully fixed thier transmission problems.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    When my wife was looking for a car, we checked out the Avalon, I my wife took one look at the car and said "I'm not yet!" :P However, we test drove and I liked it's power, but not it's feel, but overall I rank it up there with the best large sedans. I would buy an Avalon over a Lexus any day.

    It is my understanding that the 05 and 04 TL's are not have tranny trouble, according to CR, and that torque steer is not a prob in AT.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    When my wife was looking for a car, we checked out the Avalon, I my wife took one look at the car and said "I'm not old yet!" I meant to say. I am tired, had to work late. :cry:
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    captain2....yes...torque steer has received press coverage in R&T along with C&D for all if not most fwd cars. It could occur if really screeching hard out of a turn (if pushing the car to its limit) or if rabbit starting the car. It occurs when there is extreme torque. I have jumped on the pedal and have cornered hard on several occasions and I haven't found it in my TL (and I have heard from frisconick the same). As your mentioned, "most drivers would never push it to that point."

    As for the transmission....the first year of the current TL was in 2004. I have heard that there was an issue with the prior TL version...but I haven't heard that it continues with the current TL. Also...from what I understand...Acura is standing behind their product and has extended the warranty for those model years effected.

    I am not at all saying that the Avalon is a bad choice. Just that it is somewhat difficult to compare the Avalon to others you have mentioned. In the most recent Consumer Report, they indicated that the 'Avalon cannot be compared to the other sports sedans (in the issue)' and that the steering 'feel is without feedback'. Now...that isn't a bad thing...just that the car was developed for certain drivers. And those drivers may find the M35, 550, etc to be harsh also.

    I would consider the Avalon if I was in the market for a Lexus ES or even the Lexus 430...with the Avalon as great value. And I would consider the M45 with the Lexus GS430. Or the G35 with the TL. Each within their peer group. And if was in a different stage in life with different requirements.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Toyota really could have upstaged its competitors by simply making the Av rear wheel drive - the engine/transmission in rear wheel drive already existing in some of their trucks. True performance cars of almost any type - rear wheel drive.

    Toyota/Lexus has always been on the soft side of things - what was the last car that Toyota ever produced that could run 6s 0-60 or qtrs under 15s? Not a performance brand just solid well made cars. The Av has changed that to the degree in that it will run with about anything out there or at least until you push it into some corners (again something most drivers don't do) where its size and softness takes over - which is why I chose the slightly firmer Touring. I would contend that ride quality and handling are mutually exclusive terms, meaning you are generally not going to have one without giving something back on the other. Whatever balance between the two we choose is a question of priorities and not necessarily a function of vehicle quality. From my perspective, I decided that over the long term I would appreciate the Av's softer and quieter ride over the TL's (and G35) better handling in situations I'm rarely in.

    Styling opinions are much more subjective, the Av's reputation as an 'old folks' car unfortunate for what the car has become - Toyota may have done better calling it something else! Read somewhere that the average owner was 60 something prior to the '05 - this will change as the Avalon is rediscovered instead of summarily dismissed with comments like "I'm not that old yet". I would have said the same thing prior to actually driving it!
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449
    Check out Toyota's GS 430- that engine is something.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I am not dismissing the Avalon...and I honor your decision to purchase one. I always say that one should purchase a car based upon needs and desires and I am sure you made the correct decision.

    The main purpose of my post to clearify a few comments made. To reiterate...the transmission issue which you indicated is from a preexisting model (current version of the TL originated in pointed to a pre-2004). Torque all (including the Avalon) front wheel driven cars...and as you indicated...only if pushed to the max which we typically do not achieve. Ride Consumer Reports indicates...the Avalon 'is not a sports sedan' and 'lacks feedback'....while the TL is a 'sports luxury' and in a different classification that has a taunt aggressive sports look and feel (the only other Toyota brand car that is comparable is the Lexus GS series).

    I say we both agree that both are fine cars. I am just clearifying several points and facts which you made which may mislead the casual reader here regarding the TL.
  • billyperksbillyperks Member Posts: 449

    I see reports that transmissions are being replaced on the 2004 TL'S.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I have not seen such and have not heard a peep about the 2005s on the boards.

    Share your sources.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    You got my interest I went to the offical governmental site for recalls to look into the supposition that there is something going on with the 2005 TL transmissions.

    No issues and recalls for the 2005 TL transmission...only a minor general electrical fuse repair.

    Here is my clearification and confirmation of my statement:

    As for the 2005 Toyota Avalon...there is a recall for the steering column where there is the possibility of loss of steering control:


    That sounds pretty serious... :surprise:
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a couple of really non issues seem to be bothering you:
    1) TL trannies - well documented problems since the 2000 model year showing premature failures at about 30-40k. Asked an Acura service manager about this and he did say this was all solved with the 270hp models (what would you expect him to say). I do not know if this is true or not but it is probably a little too early to tell on the 04/05 models. Laws of physics will tell you that any high hp engine will be harder on a trans. - some designs will be better than others at handling it - the Avalon is therefore an obvious candidate for the same sort of problems - we will just have to wait and see how Toyota did.
    2) torque steer - agree that all front wheel drive cars do torque steer to some degree (laws of physics again). Some mfgrs. don't hide it very well (ever drive a Maxima), some do better. Have yet to be able to 'feel' it with my Av, you really have to push a TL to feel it. Other factors equal, both the Av and the TL would benefit from rear wheel drive

    Interesting comment on the GS series if you are judging a 'sports luxury' by the way a car looks - by the way it drives it is certainly less fitting of that definition than the TL which costs $20k (or more) less - a testament to how good the TL actually is. As far as my Av goes, I think of it more as an 'LS350' at a 30 grand savings and wonder why folks are spending that much more for a label.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    The GS suspension system is totally different than the Avalon...and it is noticable in its ride. Just check out the consumer report on that....not just by looks.

    The LS350 has many additional amenities beyond the Avalon. it worth the $30k kick? To some no.

    As you stated...both the transmission and torque steer are non-issues. btw...I am not bothered. Just stating facts. See my previous post #141 regarding the transmission as reported by the official governmental nhtsa. No issues and recalls for the 2005 TL transmission...only a minor general electrical fuse repair. The 2005 Avalon has steering wheels that may come lose and create a crash.
  • nimiminimimi Member Posts: 249
    . . . and reviewing further on the recall notice, the "potential" number of vehicles affected is 4,855; hardly an issue for the model line as a whole.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    was speaking, of course, of the LS430 - there is no such thing as a LS350 -being about the same size as the Av and having the same general ride character. look at what's on a 'Limited' for about $35k, you will be hard pressed to find a lot of amenties missing.
    CR is interesting and sometimes a little suspect in their priorities. That last comparison test had the M35 the best car ever tested with the Av in a supplemental test scoring higher than anybody else (STS, A6, GS300, RL) except for the M. These are all 50k cars, but in the luxury sedan category recap the Avalon and the TL are tied in 2nd (89 pts) besting not only these cars but also 530s, E320's etc. etc. The GS, if you read the article, was lauded for those typical Lexus virtues of reliability, fit/finish, ride/quietness and downgraded for what comes with that - a softer 'less sporty' feel. Same as what they had to say about the Av. I can't believe that CR actually thinks the Av and the TL to be better cars than the RL, 5 series, A6, E series or GS. Better values, certainly - better cars - give me a break.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    let's keep in mind we are comparing the TL to the Avalon and all of these other vehicles aren't really part of the conversation ...
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    You are absolutely correct Pat....stick to the forum discussion...

    But if anyone is interested in knowing the difference between an Avalon and LS430, go to the Lexus site and use the 'comparison' feature of the Lexus web site. Same for the other cars. (Pat...please don't delete this...I won't elaborate on the differences and the readers should know that there are real differences).
  • osteoman2osteoman2 Member Posts: 26
    I have an 04 TL and am about to buy a 06 Avalon.

    I have had no serious issues with my TL but I have never owned a car that rattles as much as the TL. My car currently has 42,000 miles on it. All of my cars prior have cost less as well.

    I think the people who have a TL earlier in this post just are not recognizing the tourque steer for what it is. It is quite evident many times. Turning corners from a stop. Slowing to make a turn. Accelerating hard is quite obvious. The tourque steer is a daily issue and I do not drive fast. Also this TL wasn't put together as well as my two previous Accords. It does look great though. Nothing beats the DVD surround sound system if you can find good DVD A' discs. These are few and far between. The blue tooth phone system is great when it works properly which isn't often.

    Both great cars but not really comparable except in price.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    If you go to the TL problems and solutions forum...and other similar will find that you are correct that the 2004 TL had torque steer (which you own). And yet the 2005 does not...especially in the automatic transmission. And the 2006 will include further enhancement to mitigate whatever torque steer.

    Really...both the TL and Avalon are great cars. Depends on what you want.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    Can't fault you for wanting an 06 Avalon, it's a great car. However the 05 TL is a big improvement over the initial year 04. You might want to test drive an 05 or an 06, you might be surprised. I have had my 05 for 6 months, and not one rattle, and no torque steer, and I do drive fast. :P
  • osteoman2osteoman2 Member Posts: 26
    I'm sure you guys are right. My friend has an 05 TL and has had no rattle issues at all. Is really my fault for being an early adopter. Even with those issues I enjoyed my TL. I'm glad to hear they are continuing to improve the TL. I considered the RL instead of the Avalon but didn't want to take a chance on a 43,000 set of rattles. :surprise:
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    Glad that you did enjoy your 2004 TL overall and understand that the 2005 has been enhanced. Yeah...I tend not to purchase the first year of newly released car versions (in fact here is another tip for home purchases as I used to be CFO of a homebuilder. Models and phase 1 are not the best as that is where they are fine tuning home layouts...moving windows, conduits, etc).

    If you enjoyed your 2004 TL but concerned with the possibilities of rattles in your new car....give the RL a shot. I was rather impressed with not only the outstanding features which would rival a Lexus LS or GS. The RL is also very quite and smooth....which you can get for a $50k list price car about $43k fully loaded.
  • stickymanstickyman Member Posts: 53
    I looked very long and hard at the Avalon. I own a 2001 XLS and I understand about the ride, reliability, etc of the Avalon. I wanted a 05 Limited (Loaded) but, the best price that I could find was $34,695.00. I jjust purchased a 05 TL AT w/Navi for $32,650.00. When I compare the two cars, I have high horsepower, leather, XM, and Navi in both cars but, I also have $2,000.00 in the pocket that will now go for the golf clubs. Both cars are great, I just wish that Toyota dealers would understand that money is not cheap and we (buyers) do have choices. Maybe in 3 years, I can get a deal on the Avalon but for now, I'll enjoy the new TL and Golf Clubs ;)
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    I agree sticky, and the TL is much more fun to drive than the Avalon. I test drove an Avalon and liked it very much, but the TL felt much better, especially when cornering.
  • osteoman2osteoman2 Member Posts: 26
    Okay here is my comparo after owning the 06 Avalon for 9 days (not long enough I know) and owning the 04 TL for a year and a half:

    Appearance: Both great but different, subjective.

    Power: TL=270 Avy=280. But you feel the power of TL more. Winner =tossup

    Fit and finish: TL=not good, lots of rattles, more then any car I have ever owned. (I know the new ones are better. I agree as my friend has an 05 TL and it's quiet.) Avy=Very impressive. Only some minor malallignments. Winner=Avy

    Paint: TL=my white car's bumpers were not the same color as the car. The front end chipped horribly. Avy= A small paint blemish from the factory over the right rear wheel well. Too soon to tell otherwise. Winner=remains to be seen but at least the Avy is the same color all over.

    Leather: TL=smooth as butter Avy=Not as high quality but thicker and will probably last longer. Winner=tossup.

    Inside appearance: TL=sporty Avy=luxary Winner=Tossup per preferance.

    Road manners: TL=great around curves. Fun to drive. BAD TOURQUE STEER. Feel most road bumps. Not as quiet as the Avy. Rough over anything less then perfectly smooth pavement. Avy=Quiet as anything. Smooth with very little road noise. Feel almost no bumps. Slightly more disconnected from the road. Total luxary feel. Winner=Avy (subjective)

    Toys: TL=Bluetooth phone worked but not well. DVD surround audio is EXCELLENT if you can find the discs you like. These are very few and far between. Mine was non-navi but I hear the navi's are great in them. Avy=AC controls on steering wheel as well. Better sound system (JBL Synthesis) when not in DVD surround mode. Better FM reception. Winner=TL

    I would be happy to answer any specific questions from buyers considering both as well.

    My preference so far is Avy. It is however still new so give me a year for a better idea.
  • frisconickfrisconick Member Posts: 1,275
    They are both great cars, but the one think that bothered my about the Avy is it's size, it's just too big. This is very evident if you are trying to find that rare parking space in San Francisco. I could just get a Civc. :P (I think the Civc is a fine car BTW)
  • osteoman2osteoman2 Member Posts: 26
    The civic is a great car. I considered one just for the fuel economy. I tell you though while the Avy is bigger. It turns in a tighter circle and is easier to park then the TL. The TL's turning radius is not good.
  • delmar1delmar1 Member Posts: 744
    I bought my TL because it is a blast to drive ... I spend considerably more time driving than parking.
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