Tayl0rd, you are pretty defensive about a car you do NOT even own, aka 2005 Mustang. Didn't you buy a 2004 which is based on the ANCIENT 1979 rattle prone Fox chassis? I hope you got a great deal, I would have bought a 2005 which is much better then 2004 in all aspects.
kev.....I agree. A good design is a good design. I still do a double take when I see a 300 on the street. A good looking design will draw attention no matter how many they sell (which is the whole reason why the Mustang and the 300 have been wildly popular).
If you're looking for a cruiser, the GTO is a good one. I think the vast majority of us were looking for an out and out performance car. That's where the Mustang shines and the GTO falls down (in addition to the style of the GTO being its other achilles heal). But, if I were looking for a crusier, I'd probably pick the 300C over the GTO as it fills that role better.
R&T just did a "mini review" of the '05 GTO. They noted that for a car that they tested doing 0-60 in 5 seconds, that it is a relatively good buy. But, that comes hot on the heals of the last Mustang GT they tested in which thier 0-60 time was 4.9 secs. As I've said over and over again, the GTO and the Mustang GT, performance wise, are nearly identical. It's been proven over and over again by all the independent testing people. Unquestionably, the GTO has the bigger engine, but it's also carrying around more weight which nets it nearly the same "cafe racing" and track numbers. Add to that, the Mustang GT is probably putting out more than 300HP and the reasons the numbers are nearly the same become more evident.
A Lotus is only carrying around a 180HP Toyota engine, but is faster than either the GTO or the Mustang. Weight is the enemy in performance cars.
That same weight penalty shows itself in the way the GTO feels and handles. It's more ponderous than the Mustang GT. Even the IRS can't save the GTO from feeling more ponderous than the Mustang GT (which has a mighty fine solid rear).
Regarding the build/feel of the Mustang, while the doors are solid feeling on both, the GTO's are ponderous and "old school" when trying to open them in a crowded parking lot.
There's nothing but a solid feeling in everything about the Mustang. The shifter being the other piece that turned me off about the GTO. Like everything else, it was slow, sloppy and ponderous. The Mustang's was beefy and positive.
From purely a personal opinion, I preferred the interior in my Mustang (IUP & ICAP). Guages are big with big numbers.....very legible. While I like "my color" option and use it all the time to change the look of my interior, I would have been just as happy without it. Needless to say, I liked the interior of the Mustang over the GTO's....ergonomically, pleasing "feel & touch" of the controls, to the style of the Mustang's interior. Apparently, 190,000 other Mustang lovers feel the same way about the exterior and interior of the Mustang GT.
You want an out and out American performance car, get the Mustang GT. You want a cruiser that's fast, get a GTO or a 300C.
If Hertz thought they'd get any sort of action in renting GTOs, they'd probably start renting those, too. I just came from a business trip in Detroit. I always rent from Hertz. Fact is, I saw as many GM cars in their lot as I did Fords. I also saw Toyotas, and believe it or not, a few Accords there for rentals. Probably 2-3 Mustangs....all 'verts....for rent there. Saw Jags & Caddys for rent, too. That's quite a lineup to have as rental cars.
Side note, I saw my first Solstice in the flesh at a convenience store I had stopped at while in Detroit. Looks like a nice piece. Saw the lady who bought it. She was pleased and said she paid "around" $19K for it. Don't know what MSRP is, but I think the General may have a winner on their hands. Nice design. If it drives anywhere half decently, we may have seen the first of, hopefully many, designs that GM will have hit a home run with.
LOL, the delusions of the number 1 Mustang fan on this board continue. The GTO continues to prove itself faster on tracks (both straight and with curves) than the Mustang in real life, and not the imaginary magazine world. The GTO is heavier, but much more solidly built and if you could not determine that from your test drives (which I am highly dubious you drove the GTO for any length of time), than I do not know what to say. And your basically stating the interior of the Mustang is better? So how are those straight out of a 80's Ford Tempo door handles holding up?
The Mustang for its price (if you can get it at that) is a great car. But it is neither a better performance car or cruiser than the GTO.
How about a poll to see who's driving what, age, profession & state?
I am 46 years old. Drive an 05 GTO (and love it). Other cars include two Honda Civics and a Chevy 3/4 ton Silverado. My profession is telecommunications/information technology. I am in Northern California.
The best part of this is that the HEAVIER GTO with the bigger 6 liter engine with 100 more horsepower gets the SAME EPA gas mileage as the Mustang, LOL!
Both cars are rated 17 city and 25 highway with manual trannies.
....."LOL, the delusions of the number 1 Mustang fan on this board continue"......
You got that right.
....."The Mustang for its price (if you can get it at that) is a great car. But it is neither a better performance car or cruiser than the GTO"....
Well said, I laugh at the people paying MSRP and higher and on waiting lists to get a Stang GT. I guess it's that Got To Have Factor. It's a pony car that's great for a drive up to 1hr but that is about it. For a long drive the GTO is much more comfortable car.
Umm... No. I own a 2005 GT. I haven't a clue as to why you think I bought an '04. I suppose you were just fishing to get me to say what I have. All you have to do is ask.
Exhaust note: Just because C&D liked the way the GTO sounds doesn't make it any less of an opinion.
Income brackets: The Mustang "caters" to pretty much any income bracket. I, for one, am not one of the "lower income" people you are trying so hard to talk down about. I have another car that pulls family car/luxury car duties. I don't need or want a sports coupe to pull triple duty as fun/luxury/family car. But from the way you and others are touting the GTO's "luxurious and spacious" interior, I figure that's its raison d'etre for you guys.
....."That same weight penalty shows itself in the way the GTO feels and handles. It's more ponderous than the Mustang GT. Even the IRS can't save the GTO from feeling more ponderous than the Mustang GT (which has a mighty fine solid rear)".....
The Shelby GT500 will weigh the same or more then GTO, what then? That is why the Vette weighs 3200 lbs or less and has perfect 50/50 weight. No, the Solid Rear is pretty nasty and has tendency to side step out while the GTO IRS was perfectly find on the same road in C&D's comparo.
...."If Hertz thought they'd get any sort of action in renting GTOs, they'd probably start renting those, too. I just came from a business trip in Detroit. I always rent from Hertz"....
The fact remains that the Rent-A-Stang is a rental ca
...."Apparently, 190,000 other Mustang lovers feel the same way about the exterior and interior of the Mustang GT. r and the GTO isn't. In the end rental-fleet sales hurt resale values on cars"....
Thats because the car starts at $19k price point with the wimpy V6. As said many times before, just because a car/product sells more doesn't mean it's better. I guess you haven't learned that one yet. Mustang has ALWAYS OUTSOLD the GTO even from 1964 to 1974.
....."The shifter being the other piece that turned me off about the GTO. Like everything else, it was slow, sloppy and ponderous".....
I have the Automatic GTO, which BTW is same or faster then 6spd GTO so my shifter is very solid, no problems there.
....."Regarding the build/feel of the Mustang, while the doors are solid feeling on both, the GTO's are ponderous and "old school" when trying to open them in a crowded parking lot"....
You are joking/kidding right? The GTO doors shut with a solid thunk, which reminds me of my BMW 5 series. Sorry but the GTO is better build quality. whats up with the frameless window that has to go up and down everytime you open or shut the door, that will BREAK after the warranty period. Extra wear on the window motors.
....."As I've said over and over again, the GTO and the Mustang GT, performance wise, are nearly identical. It's been proven over and over again by all the independent testing people"....
Not according to Car and Driver which had the GTO a full HALF second faster in the 1/4, 13.3 vs 13.8
....."Add to that, the Mustang GT is probably putting out more than 300HP and the reasons the numbers are nearly the same become more evident".....
Prove that! I have heard rumors of 320hp also but until we have proof it's just a rumor.
....."You want a cruiser that's fast, get a GTO or a 300C".....
True. The only thing I don't like about 300C, many blind spots and the factory exhaust is horrible. Barely tell it's a V8 engine. Very weak sounding.
The V6 Stang uses a Ranger/Explorrer UNREFINED 4 liter V6 truck engine. It shows if you get hard on the gas... noisy.... already rented one on a business trip.
...."And the GTO needs a 6th gear and 1st-to-4th skipshift to get that".....
Doesn't matter, the fact remains the GTO 400 hp 6 liter gets the same gas mileage as the Mustang 300hp 4.6 liter, pretty impressive engineering on Holden's part. Not to mention the GTO weighs 300 lbs more to boot.
1st to 4th skipshift can be removed for about $20 part, or you can just rev up 1st gear a little further... just keep the revs a little higher.
...."Umm... No. I own a 2005 GT. I haven't a clue as to why you think I bought an '04. I suppose you were just fishing to get me to say what I have. All you have to do is ask"....
Not fishing for info at all. I thought you had said you had a 2004 way back, my mistake.
...." I have another car that pulls family car/luxury car duties. I don't need or want a sports coupe to pull triple duty as fun/luxury/family car."....
Me too. But the fact remains that I CAN use and do use the GTO as a family car with roomy backseats, esp. for cars shows, something the Mustang can't do with it's tiny cramped backseat. 4 Adults fit great in GTO, NOT in a GT. Getting in or out of either car is a chore though.
...."But from the way you and others are touting the GTO's "luxurious and spacious" interior, I figure that's its raison d'etre for you guys"....
Yep, traded in my BMW 5 series for the GTO. Would never do that for a Mustang.
...."Income brackets: The Mustang "caters" to pretty much any income bracket. I, for one, am not one of the "lower income" people you are trying so hard to talk down about".....
I am NOT a "lower income" bracket either and wanted to buy a new Vette, but I needed the backseat. Seating for 3. To me it's my 4 door Vette. GTO better interior then Vette. The Stang is priced anywhere from $19k to $40k soon. The problem is that the HS kid driving the $19k stang will look similar to your $40k stang. Most of the people in my area, which is one of the highest income areas in the US, don't drive Mustangs. Just pointing out the facts. Those parents around here buy the Mustang for their kid as a first car in High school.
The GT is holding its own against the GTO so you have to pick on its little brother? And the only "proof" that you're coming up with is ONE comparison from C&D. Don't you read any other periodicals? You want proof that the GT is underrated? Go here: http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1208 and look at the dynograph at the bottom of the page. Their stock GT produced 270HP at the wheels. At a 15% drivetrain loss, that equates to roughly 318HP at the crank. There are lots of other dynos posted all over the web showing that the GT is producing anywhere from 315 - 330 HP depending on the environmental conditions. At any rate, yeah, it's underrated.
Weight of the GT500: Yeah, it will weigh as much as or more than the GTO, but it will also have at least 75 more HP than the GTO; AT LEAST.
Less is more? There were more Civics and Corollas sold than Cavaliers. Is the Cavalier better than the Civic and Corolla since there's not as many sold?
I am NOT a "lower income" bracket either and wanted to buy a new Vette, but I needed the backseat.
But wait! You just said you have another car for family duty. Why did you "need" a backseat for your performance car? You like to take the family out and carve mountain roads??
But the fact remains that I CAN use and do use the GTO as a family car with roomy backseats, esp. for cars shows, something the Mustang can't do with it's tiny cramped backseat.
That's what makes the GT a better sports car than the GTO. The Vette doesn't have a backseat, the Mustang doesn't have a very usable backseat. The Mustang has that long hood and low seating position that you complained about just like a Vette does. The Mustang has a near 50/50 weight distribution (52/48). What is it on the GTO? 57/43, isn't it? That's right about where the GT500 will be.
Yep! You got us! The Mustang makes a TERRIBLE family hauler/luxury cruiser. It sure does do a fine job of pulling sports car duty, though. Too bad, I guess. What were we GT guys thinking in buying basically a sports car when we should have bought a mostly luxury cruiser??? I guess we "low incomers" will have to go out and buy a SECOND (or third) car for that. For shame! I might have to sell the rental property.
....."The Mustang has a near 50/50 weight distribution (52/48). What is it on the GTO? 57/43, isn't it? That's right about where the GT500 will be."......
GTO has a 55/45 weight distribution. Mustang is 52/48, Very Close 3% GT500 will be be a tad higher due to the extra 150+ pounds in the nose.
....."That's what makes the GT a better sports car than the GTO. The Vette doesn't have a backseat, the Mustang doesn't have a very usable backseat. The Mustang has that long hood and low seating position that you complained about just like a Vette does.".....
Mustang GT is NOT a sports car and either is the GTO. In your terminology the GTO is more of a sports car then GT. It's faster, brakes the same or better and has similar handling, outhandled GT on speed vision shootout and has a usable back seat, another plus. point is?
...." guess we "low incomers" will have to go out and buy a SECOND (or third) car for that"....
Around me many of the parents buy their kids New Stang High School or College. There were about 10 new V6 and GT's in the HS lot the other day here. To Each Their Own!
Whatever. Fact remains the heavier GTO with bigger more powerfull engine gets same EPA as Stang. Pretty impressive for big pushrod engine. Learn to accept it and Deal with it!! Move on!
BTW I have the Automatic GTO so I doesn't pertain to me. Auto as you know is same or faster then manual GTO
....."Weight of the GT500: Yeah, it will weigh as much as or more than the GTO, but it will also have at least 75 more HP than the GTO; AT LEAST.".....
By using Forced induction, AKA supercharger. If I put a blower on MY GTO it will run in the 11's or 12's and beat the GT500 and still cost less then GT500. Aftermarket blower covers warranty of car.
....."You want proof that the GT is underrated? Go here:"....
Until FORD OFFICIALLY changes the GT to a 320hp rating, 300hp stands! Although Ford took a big black eye in 1999 or 2000 over-rating Cobra by 20+ hp... so maybe they are making ammends this time?
....."Less is more? There were more Civics and Corollas sold than Cavaliers. Is the Cavalier better than the Civic and Corolla since there's not as many sold?...."
As I said, just because something sells the most/best doesn't always make it the best product, F150 is best seller! it certainly is NOT the best vehicle. End of discussion
...."But wait! You just said you have another car for family duty. Why did you "need" a backseat for your performance car? You like to take the family out and carve mountain roads??"....
For the car shows I attend, instead of having the my wife waste gas and follow me in another car. Try fitting a Britax car seat in a GT, very hard. I got the same Vette drivetrain with a better quality interior then vette for $15k less. Pretty easy to get the point, right?
Around me many of the parents buy their kids New Stang High School or College.
But wait! You said your people don't buy Mustangs. Why the change in story? Whether they bought it for themselves or for their kids, they still bought one. Right? And since they're taking baths in money, why didn't they opt to buy the kids GTOs?
In your terminology the GTO is more of a sports car then GT. It's faster, brakes the same or better and has similar handling, outhandled GT on speed vision shootout and has a usable back seat, another plus.
I didn't use any terminology. But in your terminology, the GTO is a better sports car than a Miata. It absolutely blows the Miata out of the water on acceleration and, the way you tell it, its handling is probably on par with the Miata with a backseat big enough to fit a Miata. So is the GTO a better sports car than a Miata or even an S2000?
....."And the GTO needs a 6th gear and 1st-to-4th skipshift to get that"....
The Mustang needs a 5th gear in it's automatic to get 2mpg better then automatic in GTO, same thing. I believe the Vette is getting either a 5spd or 6spd auto next year.
I like the GTO auto better, firmer-crisper shifts then GT's.... to each their own. In my area of the country near NY city, you don't want a Manual shift.
...."But wait! You said your people don't buy Mustangs. Why the change in story? Whether they bought it for themselves or for their kids, they still bought one. Right? And since they're taking baths in money, why didn't they opt to buy the kids GTOs?"...
Because the Mustang Is cheaper the GTO, most of the kids usually get the $19k Wimpy V6 specials. It's a mix match, Parents buy the Stang or the kid themselves with their own $$. I don't know, ask them. I wish I was taking a bath in $$, LOL!
....."So is the GTO a better sports car than a Miata or even an S2000?"....
Ok, what does this have to do with GTO vs Mustang? However since you asked, S2000 and Miata are both good cars, they just don't fit my needs like the GTO does. I don't like having to wind my car up to 4000 or 5000+ rpm to make power/torque
Because the Mustang Is cheaper the GTO, most of the kids usually get the $19k Wimpy V6 specials.
But wait! You said the GTO is targeted to your class of people. Why on Earth would they step DOWN to a Mustang, a "wimpy V6" Mustang at that. Surely with all that money, they want the best for the kids.
....."'s cool. In my area, when we want a performance car, we men want to shift our own gears, regardless of traffic"......
Ever drive on the GW Bridge or Manhattan traffic or FDR or West side highway? You can't use the power of a GT or GTO, usually stop and go gridlock traffic. Auto is the way to go. Also my wife can't drive a stick that well.. so another reason for the Auto.
Besides I almost NEVER take GTO into the city.. usually the other car. Many drag racers use autos' more then you think. With manual you run the risk in a race of missing a gear etc...
By using Forced induction, AKA supercharger. If I put a blower on MY GTO it will run in the 11's or 12's and beat the GT500 and still cost less then GT500. Aftermarket blower covers warranty of car.
I almost forgot to touch on this little point. If, if, if... If the sky was purple, there'd be no clouds. What if Ford had a supercharged 6L V8 in the GT500?? That's if you want to make things even.
I've owned BMWs, too. Neither the GTO nor the Mustang is going to match the build quality of the BMW. Service costs, reliability, etc. are an entirely different matter with BMWs, however.
Again, believe what you will, I personally thought both the GTO and Mustang are built solidly.
Performance figures from all the independent sources (R&T, Edmunds, MT, C&D) cummulatively, show the Mustang GT and the GTO virtually identical. To me, that says the GTO is heavy and the Mustang GT is putting out more than 300HP. Ford isn't commenting on whether they purposely under reported the HP of the Mustang GT. Performance figures tell a different story for the GT's HP, though. None of that really matters. What does matter, to me, is my own experience with both cars. That tells me what all the trade rags say, however......it's going to be a driver skill level that will eeke out a win between the two....and it will be close in either case.
None of that even addresses the '04 GTO's performance figures which were slightly worse than the '05 Mustang GT's.
I've yet to see any independent source get better numbers for the automatic GTO over the manual tranny GTO. I have seen GM's numbers, but no one has been able to duplicate that.
Um, I really don't understand your logic in crapping on a motor because it is not "New for 2005", and it's used in many applications. Yes, the LS2 is new, but isn't the LS1 like 8 years old, and it was used in many applications. So, by your logic, since it's old, it's a POS and because it's used in many applications, that also makes it "unworthy", or lesser of an engine? The LS-1 has had modifications done to it too over it's lifespan, so does that make it a little inferior?
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the LS-X a corporate engine, to be used in different displacements / versions in different vehicles, just like FOMOCO's 4.6 was designed to be? Hence, the 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0 LS- Vortecs are LS-1s nonetheless, correct? So wouldn't the LS-1 be crappy too, using your thinking?
Why aren't you putting down the LS1s, since they're not "new"?
I concur that he made the vast majority of the posts.
Regarding convincing us: To be quite honest, I don't know that ANYONE in here has changed their opinion with regards to either of these two vehicles due to any argument posed in this thread in the last 3 months. I think the positions that have been taken in this thread are, in many ways, more entrenched than one would find on Capital Hill.
Simply put, both cars are good performers. Both cars are reasonably priced. Both cars are reasonably put together and reliable. Both cars have their OWN set of strengths and weaknesses. They will appeal to different people for different reasons and NO ONE will ever convince a GTO fan that the Mustang is 'better' for them or the other way around.
Personally, I wouldn't give a rats behind if a GTO was 1/2 second quicker in the quarter mile. Number one, I'm not a drag racing fan; I'm much more interested in putting the car on a road course. Number two, I've NEVER happened to be lined up at the same stoplight as a GTO. Ever. Seen them in traffic? Sure. But I wouldn't base my buying decision on some nebulous possibility that I might find myself lined up with a GTO, and traffic/enforcement might be light enough to allow a little street race, and I might be juvenille enough to race. All you GTO fans who are so enamoured with 0-60 and 1/4 times need to remember that there's ALWAYS somebody else out there who is faster than you. The odds are simply very low that you'll run across him.
I don't even know why I waste my time and the bandwidth......
jae....I've always liked the LS1 engine. I like the LS2 as well. I surely like the 4.6L in my Mustang. Trying to judge the lineage of the LS1, LS2, 4.6L, 5.0L.....any of them, if you really want to get technical, all of them were built on technology that started with the first V8s ever produced in the U.S....from Ford's flathead V8 up through the small blocks and the big blocks. All of them have the same basic principle of 8 cyls put into a "V" configuration.
You can change the bore, the stroke or you can carburate them, fuel inject them, turbo or supercharge them. You can change the size of the pistons or the block, you can use hemispherical heads.
Fact is, they all are derived from the same basic V8 configuration.
rorr....bottom line, we drive what we like. You're right. I don't give a rats behind what anyone else drives and have no desire to convince anyone I'm right in my choice.
Every once in a while, it does give me some diversion and a few chuckles to check in and post, though.
....."I've owned BMWs, too. Neither the GTO nor the Mustang is going to match the build quality of the BMW"....
You know BMW stands for Break My Wallet after warranty runs out. I had some squeaks in mine. Started around 50k miles when warranty ran out. Not to mention electrical, radiator and other problems. I would say my GTO matches my BMW 540 in build. Only cheesy thing in GTO is the 3 Hvac controls knobs, other then that it matches.
Has any independent magazine other then Pontiac run a Automatic GTO? All the tests I have seen are Manual shift. GM/pontiac claims .1 of a second faster for Auto... who knows
....."Why aren't you putting down the LS1s, since they're not "new"?".....
You need to read the previous posts, Wasn't talking about LS-1, only the LS-2 and 4.6. Since you asked, the LS1 was an all new engine for 1997 when it debuted, first major revision of the Chevy Small block since 1955.
....."I almost forgot to touch on this little point. If, if, if... If the sky was purple, there'd be no clouds. What if Ford had a supercharged 6L V8 in the GT500?? That's if you want to make things even......."
But Ford doesn't make a 6L V8, only a 5.4L V8. Where as the aftermarket does make a supercharger for my GTO. Case closed!
I am getting quite a few chuckles as well, laughing right now, out of all the mis-information posted by Mustang owners today.. They don't like it when the truth/facts are presented. Ha!
....."None of that even addresses the '04 GTO's performance figures which were slightly worse than the '05 Mustang GT's. ".....
True, I agree. Not compared apples to apples, 2005 vs 2005. But don't forget you could get a leftover 2004 new GTO for under $25k Some as low as 22k, deal of the century!!
--C&D Top Ten Cars for '05 --Edmunds Editor's Most Wanted Coupe and Consumer's Most Wanted and Most Significant Car of '05 was awarded to the Mustang --Motorweek named the Mustang "Best of the Year" ---SEMA picked the Mustang as North American Car of the Year
Certainly do!!!! Obviously, it's all a giant conspiracy. The more awards the Mustangs receive is just further evidence of how widespread the conspiracy is.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a manifesto to work on.....
21-Male 2005 Mustang GT 2003 10th Anniversary SVT Cobra 2001 Neon R/T 1998 Mustang V6 1993 Ford Explorer
I too am in IT. Field tech for Unisys.
I think as long as everyone is happy with what they got, then what the hell, thats what counts. I don't think, like mentioned before, that anyone is going to change their opinions about these 2 cars. I don't doubt the GTO is a fast car, I know it is, I drove one... I just perfer the GT. Its like fruit. I hate tomatoes, I LOVE oranges!! :lemon: <--- Those are just sour.
Actually, the Cobra R was priced more than $40k, so yes, def. more expensive.
A agree as well. My point to 442 was that just because an engine is used as a company's workhorse, it doesn't mean that is inferior to another engine or hi-po derivative of the corporate engine that used in 3 or 4 products exclusively, as 442man tried to state. The 350, which became Chevy's and eventually GM's, workhorse, proves that: look how many hot versions spawn from it, and it's still being built, and placed in tree trimmers of all things. Just as you stated, the LS-1 (corporate workhorse), -6 (hi-po version of -1) LS2 can somewhat trace (and this is a very minute trace, like it's 4.4" bore spacing) itself to the 265 SB, which itself had an OHV layout from the Caddy/Olds V8 (good 'ol Ed Cole and his crew sure knew what they were doing). But I know it can't trace itself back to Chevy's first V8, built back in then teens I believe.
The 4.6/5.4s, not sure how much they can trace to the 5.0L, 255, 260/289/302W/351W, or Y-block, 352-series, FE-385 series, or Flattie. Maybe to the original cammer, 427 SOHC, hmmmm.....yeah, right. But my original statement to 442 agreeing about the 4.6Ls still stands in that it's been here for about 13 - 14 years, and w/o an s/c (not counting the couple exceptions), it's only made it to the lower 300-horse range. Granted I'm more of a loyal fan of pushrod than OHC tech, but I would have thought FOMOCO would have been able to put some more oats in this horse to get more oomph out of it by now. I'm not talking the territory of the Italians (Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati) but something...
Graphicguy, I don't buy my cars based on awards, consumer reports surveys etc, Like some do here. , based on post 1114. Furthermore, I would NEVER buy a first year car, been there done that, wait till the 2nd or 3rd year when the bugs are worked out. GTO was produced for 2 yrs before coming to the States. Started as 2002 model in late 2001.
Thankgod it was imported, build quality is better then any other GM car sold, even better interior then Vette.
Jae5, this is your entire post, I like new things and the LS2 is a big improvement over LS1 and is new for 2005. LS1 has nothing to do with this thread '05 GTO or Stang, you brought it up, not me. Yes the LS2 is used in dif. applications, but high end ones like SSR, GTO, Vette etc. It is NOT the same as the 6 Liter Vortech 345hp in the Escalade and trucks. Yes since the 4.6 debuted in the 1990 Town Car, it's old and time for Ford to move on. Did they ever fix that oil burning issue at and near 100k on the 4.6? I'm not commenting on the LS1 because GM/Chevy replaced it with an all new LS2 for 2005, something Ford hasn't done since the 1990 town car. When they replaced 5.0 with the 4.6 Time to move on Ford.
......"Um, I really don't understand your logic in crapping on a motor because it is not "New for 2005", and it's used in many applications. Yes, the LS2 is new, but isn't the LS1 like 8 years old, and it was used in many applications. So, by your logic, since it's old, it's a POS and because it's used in many applications, that also makes it "unworthy", or lesser of an engine? The LS-1 has had modifications done to it too over it's lifespan, so does that make it a little inferior?
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the LS-X a corporate engine, to be used in different displacements / versions in different vehicles, just like FOMOCO's 4.6 was designed to be? Hence, the 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0 LS- Vortecs are LS-1s nonetheless, correct? So wouldn't the LS-1 be crappy too, using your thinking?
Why aren't you putting down the LS1s, since they're not "new"?".....
Comments
If you're looking for a cruiser, the GTO is a good one. I think the vast majority of us were looking for an out and out performance car. That's where the Mustang shines and the GTO falls down (in addition to the style of the GTO being its other achilles heal). But, if I were looking for a crusier, I'd probably pick the 300C over the GTO as it fills that role better.
R&T just did a "mini review" of the '05 GTO. They noted that for a car that they tested doing 0-60 in 5 seconds, that it is a relatively good buy. But, that comes hot on the heals of the last Mustang GT they tested in which thier 0-60 time was 4.9 secs. As I've said over and over again, the GTO and the Mustang GT, performance wise, are nearly identical. It's been proven over and over again by all the independent testing people. Unquestionably, the GTO has the bigger engine, but it's also carrying around more weight which nets it nearly the same "cafe racing" and track numbers. Add to that, the Mustang GT is probably putting out more than 300HP and the reasons the numbers are nearly the same become more evident.
A Lotus is only carrying around a 180HP Toyota engine, but is faster than either the GTO or the Mustang. Weight is the enemy in performance cars.
That same weight penalty shows itself in the way the GTO feels and handles. It's more ponderous than the Mustang GT. Even the IRS can't save the GTO from feeling more ponderous than the Mustang GT (which has a mighty fine solid rear).
Regarding the build/feel of the Mustang, while the doors are solid feeling on both, the GTO's are ponderous and "old school" when trying to open them in a crowded parking lot.
There's nothing but a solid feeling in everything about the Mustang. The shifter being the other piece that turned me off about the GTO. Like everything else, it was slow, sloppy and ponderous. The Mustang's was beefy and positive.
From purely a personal opinion, I preferred the interior in my Mustang (IUP & ICAP). Guages are big with big numbers.....very legible. While I like "my color" option and use it all the time to change the look of my interior, I would have been just as happy without it. Needless to say, I liked the interior of the Mustang over the GTO's....ergonomically, pleasing "feel & touch" of the controls, to the style of the Mustang's interior. Apparently, 190,000 other Mustang lovers feel the same way about the exterior and interior of the Mustang GT.
You want an out and out American performance car, get the Mustang GT. You want a cruiser that's fast, get a GTO or a 300C.
If Hertz thought they'd get any sort of action in renting GTOs, they'd probably start renting those, too. I just came from a business trip in Detroit. I always rent from Hertz. Fact is, I saw as many GM cars in their lot as I did Fords. I also saw Toyotas, and believe it or not, a few Accords there for rentals. Probably 2-3 Mustangs....all 'verts....for rent there. Saw Jags & Caddys for rent, too. That's quite a lineup to have as rental cars.
Side note, I saw my first Solstice in the flesh at a convenience store I had stopped at while in Detroit. Looks like a nice piece. Saw the lady who bought it. She was pleased and said she paid "around" $19K for it. Don't know what MSRP is, but I think the General may have a winner on their hands. Nice design. If it drives anywhere half decently, we may have seen the first of, hopefully many, designs that GM will have hit a home run with.
The Mustang for its price (if you can get it at that) is a great car. But it is neither a better performance car or cruiser than the GTO.
I am 46 years old.
Drive an 05 GTO (and love it).
Other cars include two Honda Civics and a Chevy 3/4 ton Silverado.
My profession is telecommunications/information technology.
I am in Northern California.
05 GTO
My other car (believe it or not) is a 68 Mustang coupe
Also in IT
Southeast Wisconsin
Both cars are rated 17 city and 25 highway with manual trannies.
2005 GTO
2000 Infinti I30t
1958 Chevy Impala convertible
1986 Olds 442
1970 Olds 442, thus 442man
Own a house in
Nortern, Bergen County, NJ near GW bridge
You got that right.
....."The Mustang for its price (if you can get it at that) is a great car. But it is neither a better performance car or cruiser than the GTO"....
Well said, I laugh at the people paying MSRP and higher and on waiting lists to get a Stang GT. I guess it's that Got To Have Factor. It's a pony car that's great for a drive up to 1hr but that is about it. For a long drive the GTO is much more comfortable car.
Exhaust note: Just because C&D liked the way the GTO sounds doesn't make it any less of an opinion.
Income brackets: The Mustang "caters" to pretty much any income bracket. I, for one, am not one of the "lower income" people you are trying so hard to talk down about. I have another car that pulls family car/luxury car duties. I don't need or want a sports coupe to pull triple duty as fun/luxury/family car. But from the way you and others are touting the GTO's "luxurious and spacious" interior, I figure that's its raison d'etre for you guys.
The Shelby GT500 will weigh the same or more then GTO, what then? That is why the Vette weighs 3200 lbs or less and has perfect 50/50 weight. No, the Solid Rear is pretty nasty and has tendency to side step out while the GTO IRS was perfectly find on the same road in C&D's comparo.
...."If Hertz thought they'd get any sort of action in renting GTOs, they'd probably start renting those, too. I just came from a business trip in Detroit. I always rent from Hertz"....
The fact remains that the Rent-A-Stang is a rental ca
...."Apparently, 190,000 other Mustang lovers feel the same way about the exterior and interior of the Mustang GT. r and the GTO isn't. In the end rental-fleet sales hurt resale values on cars"....
Thats because the car starts at $19k price point with the wimpy V6. As said many times before, just because a car/product sells more doesn't mean it's better. I guess you haven't learned that one yet. Mustang has ALWAYS OUTSOLD the GTO even from 1964 to 1974.
....."The shifter being the other piece that turned me off about the GTO. Like everything else, it was slow, sloppy and ponderous".....
I have the Automatic GTO, which BTW is same or faster then 6spd GTO so my shifter is very solid, no problems there.
....."Regarding the build/feel of the Mustang, while the doors are solid feeling on both, the GTO's are ponderous and "old school" when trying to open them in a crowded parking lot"....
You are joking/kidding right? The GTO doors shut with a solid thunk, which reminds me of my BMW 5 series. Sorry but the GTO is better build quality. whats up with the frameless window that has to go up and down everytime you open or shut the door, that will BREAK after the warranty period. Extra wear on the window motors.
....."As I've said over and over again, the GTO and the Mustang GT, performance wise, are nearly identical. It's been proven over and over again by all the independent testing people"....
Not according to Car and Driver which had the GTO a full HALF second faster in the 1/4, 13.3 vs 13.8
....."Add to that, the Mustang GT is probably putting out more than 300HP and the reasons the numbers are nearly the same become more evident".....
Prove that! I have heard rumors of 320hp also but until we have proof it's just a rumor.
....."You want a cruiser that's fast, get a GTO or a 300C".....
True. The only thing I don't like about 300C, many blind spots and the factory exhaust is horrible. Barely tell it's a V8 engine. Very weak sounding.
The V6 Stang uses a Ranger/Explorrer UNREFINED 4 liter V6 truck engine. It shows if you get hard on the gas... noisy.... already rented one on a business trip.
And the GTO needs a 6th gear and 1st-to-4th skipshift to get that.
Doesn't matter, the fact remains the GTO 400 hp 6 liter gets the same gas mileage as the Mustang 300hp 4.6 liter, pretty impressive engineering on Holden's part. Not to mention the GTO weighs 300 lbs more to boot.
1st to 4th skipshift can be removed for about $20 part, or you can just rev up 1st gear a little further... just keep the revs a little higher.
Not fishing for info at all. I thought you had said you had a 2004 way back, my mistake.
...." I have another car that pulls family car/luxury car duties. I don't need or want a sports coupe to pull triple duty as fun/luxury/family car."....
Me too. But the fact remains that I CAN use and do use the GTO as a family car with roomy backseats, esp. for cars shows, something the Mustang can't do with it's tiny cramped backseat. 4 Adults fit great in GTO, NOT in a GT. Getting in or out of either car is a chore though.
...."But from the way you and others are touting the GTO's "luxurious and spacious" interior, I figure that's its raison d'etre for you guys"....
Yep, traded in my BMW 5 series for the GTO. Would never do that for a Mustang.
...."Income brackets: The Mustang "caters" to pretty much any income bracket. I, for one, am not one of the "lower income" people you are trying so hard to talk down about".....
I am NOT a "lower income" bracket either and wanted to buy a new Vette, but I needed the backseat. Seating for 3. To me it's my 4 door Vette. GTO better interior then Vette. The Stang is priced anywhere from $19k to $40k soon. The problem is that the HS kid driving the $19k stang will look similar to your $40k stang. Most of the people in my area, which is one of the highest income areas in the US, don't drive Mustangs. Just pointing out the facts. Those parents around here buy the Mustang for their kid as a first car in High school.
Weight of the GT500: Yeah, it will weigh as much as or more than the GTO, but it will also have at least 75 more HP than the GTO; AT LEAST.
Less is more? There were more Civics and Corollas sold than Cavaliers. Is the Cavalier better than the Civic and Corolla since there's not as many sold?
But wait! You just said you have another car for family duty. Why did you "need" a backseat for your performance car? You like to take the family out and carve mountain roads??
But the fact remains that I CAN use and do use the GTO as a family car with roomy backseats, esp. for cars shows, something the Mustang can't do with it's tiny cramped backseat.
That's what makes the GT a better sports car than the GTO. The Vette doesn't have a backseat, the Mustang doesn't have a very usable backseat. The Mustang has that long hood and low seating position that you complained about just like a Vette does. The Mustang has a near 50/50 weight distribution (52/48). What is it on the GTO? 57/43, isn't it? That's right about where the GT500 will be.
Yep! You got us! The Mustang makes a TERRIBLE family hauler/luxury cruiser. It sure does do a fine job of pulling sports car duty, though. Too bad, I guess. What were we GT guys thinking in buying basically a sports car when we should have bought a mostly luxury cruiser??? I guess we "low incomers" will have to go out and buy a SECOND (or third) car for that. For shame! I might have to sell the rental property.
...your city gas mileage well below 17MPG.
GTO has a 55/45 weight distribution. Mustang is 52/48, Very Close 3% GT500 will be be a tad higher due to the extra 150+ pounds in the nose.
....."That's what makes the GT a better sports car than the GTO. The Vette doesn't have a backseat, the Mustang doesn't have a very usable backseat. The Mustang has that long hood and low seating position that you complained about just like a Vette does.".....
Mustang GT is NOT a sports car and either is the GTO. In your terminology the GTO is more of a sports car then GT. It's faster, brakes the same or better and has similar handling, outhandled GT on speed vision shootout and has a usable back seat, another plus. point is?
...." guess we "low incomers" will have to go out and buy a SECOND (or third) car for that"....
Around me many of the parents buy their kids New Stang High School or College. There were about 10 new V6 and GT's in the HS lot the other day here. To Each Their Own!
Whatever. Fact remains the heavier GTO with bigger more powerfull engine gets same EPA as Stang. Pretty impressive for big pushrod engine. Learn to accept it and Deal with it!! Move on!
BTW I have the Automatic GTO so I doesn't pertain to me. Auto as you know is same or faster then manual GTO
By using Forced induction, AKA supercharger. If I put a blower on MY GTO it will run in the 11's or 12's and beat the GT500 and still cost less then GT500. Aftermarket blower covers warranty of car.
....."You want proof that the GT is underrated? Go here:"....
Until FORD OFFICIALLY changes the GT to a 320hp rating, 300hp stands! Although Ford took a big black eye in 1999 or 2000 over-rating Cobra by 20+ hp... so maybe they are making ammends this time?
....."Less is more? There were more Civics and Corollas sold than Cavaliers. Is the Cavalier better than the Civic and Corolla since there's not as many sold?...."
As I said, just because something sells the most/best doesn't always make it the best product, F150 is best seller! it certainly is NOT the best vehicle. End of discussion
For the car shows I attend, instead of having the my wife waste gas and follow me in another car. Try fitting a Britax car seat in a GT, very hard. I got the same Vette drivetrain with a better quality interior then vette for $15k less. Pretty easy to get the point, right?
But wait! You said your people don't buy Mustangs. Why the change in story? Whether they bought it for themselves or for their kids, they still bought one. Right? And since they're taking baths in money, why didn't they opt to buy the kids GTOs?
In your terminology the GTO is more of a sports car then GT. It's faster, brakes the same or better and has similar handling, outhandled GT on speed vision shootout and has a usable back seat, another plus.
I didn't use any terminology. But in your terminology, the GTO is a better sports car than a Miata. It absolutely blows the Miata out of the water on acceleration and, the way you tell it, its handling is probably on par with the Miata with a backseat big enough to fit a Miata. So is the GTO a better sports car than a Miata or even an S2000?
The Mustang needs a 5th gear in it's automatic to get 2mpg better then automatic in GTO, same thing. I believe the Vette is getting either a 5spd or 6spd auto next year.
I like the GTO auto better, firmer-crisper shifts then GT's.... to each their own. In my area of the country near NY city, you don't want a Manual shift.
For carshows, eh? okay.
Because the Mustang Is cheaper the GTO, most of the kids usually get the $19k Wimpy V6 specials. It's a mix match, Parents buy the Stang or the kid themselves with their own $$. I don't know, ask them. I wish I was taking a bath in $$, LOL!
....."So is the GTO a better sports car than a Miata or even an S2000?"....
Ok, what does this have to do with GTO vs Mustang? However since you asked, S2000 and Miata are both good cars, they just don't fit my needs like the GTO does. I don't like having to wind my car up to 4000 or 5000+ rpm to make power/torque
That's cool. In my area, when we want a performance car, we men want to shift our own gears, regardless of traffic.
But wait! You said the GTO is targeted to your class of people. Why on Earth would they step DOWN to a Mustang, a "wimpy V6" Mustang at that. Surely with all that money, they want the best for the kids.
Ever drive on the GW Bridge or Manhattan traffic or FDR or West side highway? You can't use the power of a GT or GTO, usually stop and go gridlock traffic. Auto is the way to go. Also my wife can't drive a stick that well.. so another reason for the Auto.
Besides I almost NEVER take GTO into the city.. usually the other car. Many drag racers use autos' more then you think. With manual you run the risk in a race of missing a gear etc...
Drive what you like.
I almost forgot to touch on this little point. If, if, if... If the sky was purple, there'd be no clouds. What if Ford had a supercharged 6L V8 in the GT500?? That's if you want to make things even.
I'm just trying to figure out whose's veins are bulging out of their neck the most..... :confuse:
Again, believe what you will, I personally thought both the GTO and Mustang are built solidly.
Performance figures from all the independent sources (R&T, Edmunds, MT, C&D) cummulatively, show the Mustang GT and the GTO virtually identical. To me, that says the GTO is heavy and the Mustang GT is putting out more than 300HP. Ford isn't commenting on whether they purposely under reported the HP of the Mustang GT. Performance figures tell a different story for the GT's HP, though. None of that really matters. What does matter, to me, is my own experience with both cars. That tells me what all the trade rags say, however......it's going to be a driver skill level that will eeke out a win between the two....and it will be close in either case.
None of that even addresses the '04 GTO's performance figures which were slightly worse than the '05 Mustang GT's.
I've yet to see any independent source get better numbers for the automatic GTO over the manual tranny GTO. I have seen GM's numbers, but no one has been able to duplicate that.
NO matter, I'm a manual tranny guy all the way.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the LS-X a corporate engine, to be used in different displacements / versions in different vehicles, just like FOMOCO's 4.6 was designed to be? Hence, the 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0 LS- Vortecs are LS-1s nonetheless, correct? So wouldn't the LS-1 be crappy too, using your thinking?
Why aren't you putting down the LS1s, since they're not "new"?
Regarding convincing us: To be quite honest, I don't know that ANYONE in here has changed their opinion with regards to either of these two vehicles due to any argument posed in this thread in the last 3 months. I think the positions that have been taken in this thread are, in many ways, more entrenched than one would find on Capital Hill.
Simply put, both cars are good performers. Both cars are reasonably priced. Both cars are reasonably put together and reliable. Both cars have their OWN set of strengths and weaknesses. They will appeal to different people for different reasons and NO ONE will ever convince a GTO fan that the Mustang is 'better' for them or the other way around.
Personally, I wouldn't give a rats behind if a GTO was 1/2 second quicker in the quarter mile. Number one, I'm not a drag racing fan; I'm much more interested in putting the car on a road course. Number two, I've NEVER happened to be lined up at the same stoplight as a GTO. Ever. Seen them in traffic? Sure. But I wouldn't base my buying decision on some nebulous possibility that I might find myself lined up with a GTO, and traffic/enforcement might be light enough to allow a little street race, and I might be juvenille enough to race. All you GTO fans who are so enamoured with 0-60 and 1/4 times need to remember that there's ALWAYS somebody else out there who is faster than you. The odds are simply very low that you'll run across him.
I don't even know why I waste my time and the bandwidth......
You can change the bore, the stroke or you can carburate them, fuel inject them, turbo or supercharge them. You can change the size of the pistons or the block, you can use hemispherical heads.
Fact is, they all are derived from the same basic V8 configuration.
Every once in a while, it does give me some diversion and a few chuckles to check in and post, though.
You know BMW stands for Break My Wallet after warranty runs out. I had some squeaks in mine. Started around 50k miles when warranty ran out. Not to mention electrical, radiator and other problems. I would say my GTO matches my BMW 540 in build. Only cheesy thing in GTO is the 3 Hvac controls knobs, other then that it matches.
Too bad we can't bring Holden over here.
You need to read the previous posts, Wasn't talking about LS-1, only the LS-2 and 4.6. Since you asked, the LS1 was an all new engine for 1997 when it debuted, first major revision of the Chevy Small block since 1955.
But Ford doesn't make a 6L V8, only a 5.4L V8. Where as the aftermarket does make a supercharger for my GTO. Case closed!
True, I agree. Not compared apples to apples, 2005 vs 2005. But don't forget you could get a leftover 2004 new GTO for under $25k Some as low as 22k, deal of the century!!
--C&D Top Ten Cars for '05
--Edmunds Editor's Most Wanted Coupe and Consumer's Most Wanted and Most Significant Car of '05 was awarded to the Mustang
--Motorweek named the Mustang "Best of the Year"
---SEMA picked the Mustang as North American Car of the Year
No reason to go on, but you get the picture.
Certainly do!!!! Obviously, it's all a giant conspiracy. The more awards the Mustangs receive is just further evidence of how widespread the conspiracy is.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got a manifesto to work on.....
2005 Mustang GT
2003 10th Anniversary SVT Cobra
2001 Neon R/T
1998 Mustang V6
1993 Ford Explorer
I too am in IT. Field tech for Unisys.
I think as long as everyone is happy with what they got, then what the hell, thats what counts. I don't think, like mentioned before, that anyone is going to change their opinions about these 2 cars. I don't doubt the GTO is a fast car, I know it is, I drove one... I just perfer the GT.
Its like fruit. I hate tomatoes, I LOVE oranges!! :lemon: <--- Those are just sour.
Actually, the Cobra R was priced more than $40k, so yes, def. more expensive.
A agree as well. My point to 442 was that just because an engine is used as a company's workhorse, it doesn't mean that is inferior to another engine or hi-po derivative of the corporate engine that used in 3 or 4 products exclusively, as 442man tried to state. The 350, which became Chevy's and eventually GM's, workhorse, proves that: look how many hot versions spawn from it, and it's still being built, and placed in tree trimmers of all things. Just as you stated, the LS-1 (corporate workhorse), -6 (hi-po version of -1) LS2 can somewhat trace (and this is a very minute trace, like it's 4.4" bore spacing) itself to the 265 SB, which itself had an OHV layout from the Caddy/Olds V8 (good 'ol Ed Cole and his crew sure knew what they were doing). But I know it can't trace itself back to Chevy's first V8, built back in then teens I believe.
The 4.6/5.4s, not sure how much they can trace to the 5.0L, 255, 260/289/302W/351W, or Y-block, 352-series, FE-385 series, or Flattie. Maybe to the original cammer, 427 SOHC, hmmmm.....yeah, right. But my original statement to 442 agreeing about the 4.6Ls still stands in that it's been here for about 13 - 14 years, and w/o an s/c (not counting the couple exceptions), it's only made it to the lower 300-horse range. Granted I'm more of a loyal fan of pushrod than OHC tech, but I would have thought FOMOCO would have been able to put some more oats in this horse to get more oomph out of it by now. I'm not talking the territory of the Italians (Ferrari, Lambo, Maserati) but something...
Thankgod it was imported, build quality is better then any other GM car sold, even better interior then Vette.
......"Um, I really don't understand your logic in crapping on a motor because it is not "New for 2005", and it's used in many applications. Yes, the LS2 is new, but isn't the LS1 like 8 years old, and it was used in many applications. So, by your logic, since it's old, it's a POS and because it's used in many applications, that also makes it "unworthy", or lesser of an engine? The LS-1 has had modifications done to it too over it's lifespan, so does that make it a little inferior?
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the LS-X a corporate engine, to be used in different displacements / versions in different vehicles, just like FOMOCO's 4.6 was designed to be? Hence, the 4.8, 5.3, 5.7, 6.0 LS- Vortecs are LS-1s nonetheless, correct? So wouldn't the LS-1 be crappy too, using your thinking?
Why aren't you putting down the LS1s, since they're not "new"?".....