Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

kdhspyder

What you fail to understand is this is the Fusions/Milan first year of sails. And, don't forget those 130,000 sales are 130,000 that Honda/Toyota failed to get..

Now you are just being ridiculous. That's your measuring stick for the success of the Fu-lans...somehow they got by the evil eye of Sauron and didn't get drawn into the depths of Mordor and end up driving off in a CamCord.

kdhspyder

Simple, predictable, easy choice for the media to make.. they have to keep the masses happy, otherwise they may loose sales...

WTH does this statement mean? Who is 'they', the unknown people behind the curtain making choices. Why do 'they' have to make easy choices to keep us happy? How would these curtain people loose (sic) sales if we weren't happy?

ggesq

Thanks for the info. I agree- I can't believe such an old design (Accord) beat out the competition. Imagine what will happen when the 08 Accord comes out :surprise:

targettuning

I would be glad to clear that up. Two of the three Hyundai products were Santa Fe's. I had both a 2002 and a 2003 and as I noted many times both were trouble free except for the clock display that randomly went blank (replaced under warranty) on the 03. The third is a 2000 Elantra bought used for my son in 2003. It currently has 150K miles and aside from a recent alternator replacement and normal wear items it too has been trouble free. Anyhow, flash back to last fall. Gas had just passed $3.00 per due to the hurricane etc. The Santa Fe was not the most economical vehicle for the circumstances so we started checking small cars e.g. Corolla, Mazda 3, Elantra, and the new sexy Civic. The Corolla did not have any of the features we wanted such as ABS and traction control,and side air bags I believe plus some others. While technically available none were to be had in our region. In addition they generally were in short supply(take what we get and pay what we ask or someone else will) and I would not get the color I wanted so I threw out the Corolla. I liked the Elantra but knew a completely new version was in the works and about the time I bought one it would be old news plus the Civic had better EPA numbers. On to the "3" which for some reason I couldn't warm up to. I loved the look of the Honda at first sight, drove one and signed up for a wait on delivery in one of two chosen colors. Atomic blue came in first and the rest is history. I thought "what could be bad about a Honda every one raves about them"....until I heard a rear suspension noise when hitting bumps on the drive home from the dealer (7 miles on the car). It was infrequent and faint but I turned the car over to my wife to drive. When she started complaining about the noise in July I knew it was bad...both rear shocks leaked out and were clunking. There still are other unresolved issues with the car. None are major,but there none the less.I hope this clears up my defection (temporary I assure you)from Hyundai.

tinatina

I'm not suprised by the Accord finishing first. I tend to agree with thegrad's comments. I tested the Accord SE 4 and the 2007 Camry LE 4 and preferred the "dated" Accord over the Camry LE -4. Camry had a cheaper looking interior, slightly worse fuel economy, and less of a sportier ride when compared to the Accord imo. I almost went with the Camry though because of the new design. Its a fine car.

However, I'm surprised the Camry finished towards the bottom. This placement does not reconcile with other publications which had the Camry 1 or 2.

backy

But were the Camrys in those tests the V6 with class-leading power, or the pedestrian LE with the I4, as in the C/D comparo? Maybe it shows that in basic trim and with the I4, the Camry is pretty ordinary, but the V6 and uplevel trim transform the car.

guest

Good point - a mixture of both 4s and 6s. Yet, in the other 4 banger tests, I have not seen the Camry place that low as in that recent comparo.

I have never tested the 6 cylinder version of any of the mid size cars. I do want to test the ES 350 though (and possibly purchase it).

akirby

I do want to test the ES 350 though (and possibly purchase it).

If you're testing the ES then you should also look at the Lincoln MKZ, just for comparison.

jimmy81

If you're testing the ES then you should also look at the Lincoln MKZ, just for comparison

What will Lincoln call the MKZ next year?

goodegg

Interesting. You haven't tested any 6cyl version of any MS sedan, but you want to shoot straight for the ES350 which is, of course, a powerful 6 cyl.?????

You may want to check out the forums here on the transmission issues on the new ES350s before you 'purchase' it. Kind of unsettling considering the price of that car.

pat

What will Lincoln call the MKZ next year?

LOL!

tinatina

What's the contradiction there? People move up all the time from one segment to another -say midsize 4 cylinder to midsize 6 cylinder - or from midsize sedan (Camry, Accord) to premium midsize sedan (ES 350). It also has the same/very similar engine as the Camry V-6 (Camry has less hp). So your point is?

Point taken on the tranny issue - but still a nice car with sizeable discounts in my locale.

neteng101

For me, its a no brainer after owning Ford products for 25+ years.. I see no reason to pay the extra $$ to say I own an Accord/Camry..

Its easy to say a Fusion is as good as an Accord/Camry because you obviously don't know any better having only owned Fords for 25+ years. Of course its a no brainer - DUH!

I've owned Mercury/Ford... Dodge... and Toyota, Acura/Honda. Drove various rentals - new Chrysler PT Cruiser recently. There's a world of difference in the build quality... though I'm not screaming for the Camry, the appliance moniker fits it IMO.

And the '08 Accord isn't even out yet... when that hits the market... :P

bobw3

There's a world of difference in the build quality

Can you better explain this statement with some specifics based on your experiences.

akirby

You can't compare older Fords with the Fusion. The difference is night and day.

m1miata

New name ZZ with the top of line being the Top. The new car, the ZZ Top, or ZZT, should rock!

-Loren

m1miata

Wouldn't the CTS with a 3.6 V6 be the closest car to compare with. The MKZ would be closer to say the Avalon or Accord V6. The baby Lexus, to me looks a bit too much like the less expensive Japan makes, though the stats on the car are pretty darn good. I would still go with a CTS over a Lexus. More unique looks- more dealerships. Just looks richer.
-Loren

neteng101

You can't compare older Fords with the Fusion. The difference is night and day.

The interior may be newer, but there is still legacy Ford there... the knobs used in the non climate controlled Fusions, the largish steering wheel buttons, so on. Ergonomics, it doesn't stack up to what the Japanese are churning out now. Like the feel of how the turn signals stalk operates on a Honda now. Little things - but you can overall still see the all around cheapness that Detroit tries for cost savings.

The PT Cruiser was the same dismal interior - Chrysler standard spec factory radio look, horrible plastics and such... there was bits of chrome but it felt more like being inside a tupperware factory.

Magazines are screaming about the Saturn Aura but one look at the interior and I'm ready to say its a modern day Buick look. I seriously can't see the interior appealing to anyone except the 40+ and over crowd.

goodegg

Aren't the MKZ and the ES350 both FWDs?

The CTS with the 3.6 does look sweet. After driving powerful FWDs for a while I can appreciate the dynamics and feel of a RWD sweetie like the CTS.

I think the 08 CTS should be worth the wait.

Gotta keep the price down under the IS350's and the 330's neighborhood tho for it to sell well.

germancarfan1

The 08 CTS should sell well if they price it correctly. The 330i has been replaced with the 328i and 335i. Now there is alarge gap between the two models. The new G35, while improved, still looks cheap inside. The Is350 is expensive and offers no manual.

captain2

the thing that bothered me about the Fusion - uncomfortable seats, kind of like what's been in the Focus - nasty engines, there is nothing good about the DT3.0 except for the fact that it has been around long enough that it should, at least, be reliable - generally cheap looking interior complete with 'Ford parts bin' switchgear dating back to the 80s, and subpar egronomics as you note. BUT, otherwise, every bit an equal to mere Accords, Camrys, and Altimas All these cars, are ,after all, made with steel and plastics- where the similarity pretty much ends. The 500 OTH genuinely not afficted with many of these problems other than the crapola drivetrain and bad seats. A much better effort on Ford's part from an egronomic standpoint and fit/finish as well.
If the Fusion/500 are day, the sun sure must be stuck behind a cloud somewhere.

alpha01

I agree that the Camry is ordinary in basic trim, but note that Consumer Reports has even the LE I4 up there with the highest scoring cards.

In all honesty, since Car and Driver's redesign, and since their stated refocus as of the December 2006 issue, Toyotas in general are faring particularly poorly due to the non-sporting nature of the vehicles, IMO. Still, I was surprised to see th 5th place rank of the Camry; I would have expected it to beat out the Saturn and at least tie the Kia.

Having not seen the mag, what was the price cap? Why Toyota would opt not to provide an SE seems like a faux pas on the company's part, as well.

~alpha

jeffyscott

the thing that bothered me about the Fusion - uncomfortable seats

And the thing about that is, for me the fusion has one of the most comfortable seats. Altima on the other has has one of the worst, for me. Camry I've not tried recently, but in the past found Toyota seats to be not deep enough to suit me.

captain2

that hard bulge that hits just above your lower back doesn't bother you?

germancarfan1

Since I havent gotten the Feb. edition yet, all I can do is speculate. However, when I drove the 2007 camry LE 4, it felt underpowered when compared with the Accord 4. 158HP just isn't enough oomph to move 3300+ lbs. While it is smooth (far smoother than the Hyundai/Kia 2.4), it doesn't like the rev like the Honda. Frankly, i'm surprised C&D picked the Kia Optima as third. When I drove one recently, it felt like a last generation car, cheap interior, poor handling, and rough engine. It was inexpensive but given how one can get an Accord for almost the same price with strong incentives, there really is no reason to buy the Kia.

neteng101

there is nothing good about the DT3.0 except for the fact that it has been around long enough that it should, at least, be reliable

Same reasoning I used when I got the Vulcan 3.0... yet it was precisely the engine that gave me trouble. And once Ford starts putting in the 3.5L from the Edge into the Fusion, watch the Fusion price advantage vaporize.

captain2

agree completely, too much weight for 150hp especially when additionally burdened with an AT. The 4 cylinder engine has always been and likely remain a Honda speciality for years, the 'world 2.4' in the Korean (and Chrysler) products much ado about nothing. If I was to buy any of these cars under the constraint of having to live with 4 cylinders, it would definitely be the Accord. Doubt, however, that you could ever really get even a stripper Honda for the price of a Kia?

germancarfan1

With the $1200 man. to dealer cash, my friend just bought a 2007 Accord VP Auto for around $16.8K. In oct 2005, my father bought the last VP AUTO on the lot for $15.5K, so it can be done.

w9cw

Kia's are generally more expensive than Hyundai's - which I've never been able to figure out! I think I can come very close to the price of a Optima with a Accord SE here locally. I really don't understand Kia's marketing when you have to pay more for a Optima EX, for example, than a Sonata Limited - especially since Hyundai owns Kia, and Kia is perceived to be lower quality than Hyundai products.

captain2

would never have guessed - never have shopped Kias and I too have thought Kia to be lower end.

akirby

Wouldn't the CTS with a 3.6 V6 be the closest car to compare with

Why? A FWD MKZ would be very comparable to the ES350. Nothing wrong with looking at a CTS but it's RWD only. The MKZ also offers AWD.

akirby

that hard bulge that hits just above your lower back doesn't bother you?

There is no hard bulge in my Fusion seats. I have the SEL with leather so they may be different than the base seats. Are you sure the lumbar support wasn't dialed up too high?

And the discussion about night and day was build quality - not the quality of materials. I totally agree the Fusion interior is the victim of the bean counters (most notably the manual seatback adjustment and radio/hvac controls). But the execution and quality is very high.

There will be a new Fusion for the 09 model year (that's only 3 years after intro) where we should see what Ford is capable of producing now that the bean counters no longer hold the purse strings.

joe97

Actually, the I4s in all of these midsizes are fairly similar, how you found one, more superior than the others are beyond me :confuse:

No offense but saying the Optima has a rough engine shows the little knowledge you have on the thetas. We know your dislikes for Hyundai/Kia but why the constant bashing, and why present incorrect information? By the way, I am still not sure why you haven't sold your "claimed" Elantra yet if Hyundais/Kias are so bad

And, as for the price, while I would say the Accord is the better overall car, the stripped version is not comparable to the base Optima, for example. The price might be similar but equivalent models would have a large price difference due to std/opt options.

thegraduate

There will be a new Fusion for the 09 model year (that's only 3 years after intro)

Where did you hear this, out of curiousity? Why would they redesign such a new car since it is one of the best sedans out of that company in many years? Or do you mean new like the "new" Escape for 2008?

kdhspyder

If it's like most vehicles it has a MidCycle refreshing that makes it 'new' in a lot of eyes. Most platforms though have at least a 10 year life cycle with two 5 yr body cycles on it and two MidCycle refreshes.

This is the 6th year of this platform for the Camry. I'm guessing that 2007 is the 5th year of this platform for the Accord.

ontop

Kia's are generally more expensive than Hyundai's

Kia's what are more expensive than Hyundai's what?

explorerx4

i have to disagree with your analysis of nothing good about the DT3.0 maybe it has been surpassed in some ways by other engines, but it is still a good piece.
if some engine growl at high rpms bothers you, then i can see liking other engines better.
my wife has one in her escape. for the most part i don't hear it. when i took it on a long trip, one tank of gas exceeded the epa highway mileage by over 10%.

wheels_r_us

Long time lurking and first time posting, so here we go...

I test drove 07 Camry XLE 4 cyl auto, Accord EX-L 4 cyl auto, and Nissan Altima 07 4 cyl auto on same day, road, time frame. This is what I found.

Smoothness: Out of 3, Camry had the smoothest rides. Altima was pretty close to Camry and Accord came in last. On Accord, I felt every sharp bumps thru the steering column and to lesser degree through the seat.

Road noise: Camry came out ahead here again. Accord last place.

Wind noise: Camry came out ahead here again...Nissan and Accord had noticeable level of noise (at least more than the Camry)

Engine noise: Camry and Altima let out small yelp but Accord was yelling when I stepped on the gas to merge in to the freeway traffic.

Roominess: Regardless of numbers, it felt roomier in Camry and once again Accord came in last. One thing to note, back seat passengers in Altima needs to take care when they enter and exit from the car to avoid bumping their againt low roof line.

Summary: Accord felt outdated compared to the Altima and Camry and I am sure many are turning blue holding their breath for news about 08 Accord design... :-) By no means Accords are sub-standard car. It is reliable and has long term quality records on its side. Accord is also the least expensive out of 3 due to most dealer's willness to negotiate. By the way, Toyota salesman was dismissive about the transmission and rpm flare issues...he said that people are complaining about nothing so that they can get a better deal...hmmm, most of people complaining are those that already own one.... I am a bit concerned about the Altima's long term quality as well...

just my 2 cents...hope this was useful.

elroy5

i have to disagree with your analysis of nothing good about the DT3.0 maybe it has been surpassed in some ways by other engines, but it is still a good piece.

I have to disagree with your analysis of the DT3.0. It is surpassed in every way by Honda's 3.0 engine. Smoother, quieter, more powerful, and better fuel economy to boot, from the same size engine.

ggesq

Out of curiosity, why isn't this vehicle included in this comparison?

akirby

It was shown to the employees a few weeks ago (and later to the media). But it's all under non-disclosure. All they would say is that it would be all new for 2009 and that Ford interiors were getting a big upgrade. They showed many future models in an attempt to convince the remaining employees and the media that the future is brighter and that they're on the right track. With a couple of exceptions the impressions were very positive even though nobody really revealed anything specific.

I was surprised, also - I thought it would be at least the 2010 model year. My opinion is this is the work of Fields and Mulally who have already said they would be adding content and options and upgrading the vehicles (albeit at lower production volumes) instead of the previous model of cost cutting and decontenting.

cajuncycler

What is this guy's problem?? So I spent less on a better built car, that's a crime? At this point in time the Sonata is built on the most techically advanced assembly line in the United States. I see with every square inch of the car that it is built with quality components, materials and the fit and finish I will stack up next to any car you care to talk about here. My job is not to convert nut cases, my purpose here is to chime in that it doesn't take $27,000 out of pocket to own a quality automobile. No it isn't for everyone but neither are the religious fanatics here prasing the virtues of Hondas and Toyotas like this is the only thing out there worth buying.

explorerx4

too bad honda couldn't put it in a wagon like the cr-v.
it probably is not suited to the extra weight.
my view on smooth and quiet is that harley seems to be doing ok, last time i checked. i like to know what my engine is doing. in one of my cars i removed the antenna as soon as i got it home. it's been in the trunk for over 15 years. i don't listen to the radio, but i like to listen to the engine.

elroy5

My opinion is this is the work of Fields and Mulally who have already said they would be adding content and options and upgrading the vehicles (albeit at lower production volumes) instead of the previous model of cost cutting and decontenting.

Well, this should make the current Fusion owners very happy. Ford obviously doesn't think the current Fusion measures up to the competition. Cost cutting, and decontenting, very nice.

explorerx4

i'm trying to figure why the honda ads in the local paper are posting pretty big discounted prices on the accord.
i don't remember usually seeing selling prices, just some lease deal.
it's just my guess that the sonata, and to a small extent, the fusion, are eating into their sales. i don't see a lot of '07 camry's, so i don't think it is that car. i guess it could be the civic and corolla. it is something, though.

cajuncycler

"Sonata looks like the TL.

HAHAHAHA...you have just made my day.

Nothing against the Sonata but it can only wish that it looks 1/10th like the TL."

Actually this Sonata owner has absolutely no wish that my car looked anything like the TL. I asked my car and she agrees. The TL just looks like a morphed Camry which by the way does nothing for me aesthetically.

explorerx4

i think you are confused about the reference to 'model'.

cajuncycler

"Magazines are screaming about the Saturn Aura but one look at the interior and I'm ready to say its a modern day Buick look. I seriously can't see the interior appealing to anyone except the 40+ and over crowd."

And what pray tell is wrong with the over 40 crowd? If you are lucky you might just live to become one of us old farts. We ain't as dumb as you think we are.

elroy5

I asked my car and she agrees.

What else did she say? LOL. How can you type, with a straight jacket on?

explorerx4

all you need is a pencil held by your teeth.