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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread



  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,906
    The old Camry was class-leading in reputation for reliability, maybe tied with the Accord. In this market of family sedans, that and overall competence are enough for success.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Interior space. The old Camry was huge when it first came out, even bigger than the current gen.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I wonder if back in the old days, when the Camcords were much smaller than the US competition, if there was criticism of them for this...were they called cramped, did reviews say the back seat space was tight, etc.?

    It is interesting to look at some of these old figures.
    Today's Corolla and Civic are about as big as the 1990 Camry and Accord.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,721
    "Camry/Accord V6's better" how? by .6 -.8 seconds 0-60 depending on what review you want to believe? The 3.0 Duratec equipped with VVT is a proven engine. It has been around now for almost 10 years and has proven to be a longterm reliable engine. What do you mean??

    This sounds like those in the GM crowds that keep touting GMs 3800 v6.

    Yes the Duratec is reliable, but it's crude.
    I haven't driven a Fusion, but my wife has Ford 500 for a company car with the Duratec and I've driven the vvt version in a Mazda 6 which was far from impressive. Handling was first rate though. The 500 version is pitiful. No torque and sounds like a wounded dog when revved.

    The Fusion maybe marginally slower than Accord v6, but the Accord v6 is far smoother. Ford needs the new 3.5 ASAP.

    I think the Fusion is a fine car, but the 3.0 will keep me from buying one.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,124
    Duratec is crude in what way? It has dual overhead cams, VVT, 24valves per cylinder, aluminum block and heads. Its all on paper that makes it look crude. I am very pleased with the get up and go in my current Fusion. IF the 3.5 offers better or equal MPG to my present 27.4 average. I would consider trading it in for another Fusion..
    My toy..
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,721
    Duratec is crude in what way? It has dual overhead cams, VVT, 24valves per cylinder, aluminum block and heads.

    I don't find it to be smooth like competing v6s from Toy/hon/nissan. It's certainly better than any of Fords other OHV v6s, but it's not going to impress anyone that has driven an import.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    24valves per cylinder

    I think you meant 4 valves per cylinder and 24 valves overall.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    What about the quality of your Fusion? Ford and GM are consistently behind Toyota and Honda in quality. Do you think that Fusion will help Ford close the gap?
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    "Ford, put the 3.5 V6 in there and you'll have a winner. "

    If Ford puts the new engine without raising the price and compromising fuel economy, I may consider it. But I will probably buy Mazda6 (I believe 6 offers the same engine with better styling and warranty). Still, I wonder if Ford has anything really convincing that will make me pick Fusion over Accord or Altima.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    I have to check but I don't think 02-06 Camry interior volume of 101.8 cu. ft. is considered class leading :confuse:
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Not anytime soon at least. What incentives would buyers have to buy a Zephyr/MKZ if the 3.5 V6 was also offered on the Fusion. Even the luxury flagship MKS is expected to have the same 3.5. If anything, it'd be in the SVT version.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Then please tell which other midsize sedan in 2002 has a bigger interior volume than 101.8 cubig ft?
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    What incentives would buyers have to buy a Zephyr/MKZ if the 3.5 V6 was also offered on the Fusion.

    That's not a valid excuse of not offering the 3.5 on Fusion.

    Toyota uses the same 3.5 V6 on Camry, Avalon and ES350 and it definitely didn't hurt Avalon and ES350's sale numbers. Also, Nissan uses the same VQ on the Altima, Maxima and G with slightly different output adjustment and I don't see any problem there either. I think Ford should put a less powerful version of the 3.5 on Fusion and Milan so the MKZ could still hold the prestige.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Taurus for one?
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Camry has actually taken sales away from the Avalon, since introduction; same for the Altima/Maxima. ES came out almost around the same time as the Camry so it's hard to say. Nissan will actually drop the new VQ engine in the G.

    If everything holds true, and the Fusion does receive the 3.5, this would mean its entry level, all the way up to its luxury flagship will all have the same engine - something no other automakers utilize, most with V8s for its luxury flagship.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    gets the new VQ has well, which will be 80 percent revised from the VQ used in the current Altima and the 07 Maxima. Thus the reason the 07 Altima will make more hp than the 07 Maxima. The Maxima continues with the older Vq, the new Altima gets the heavily revised new Vq.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Avalon sale numbers:

    June: 6608
    July: 6757

    Don't see how the new Camry has taken sales away from Avalon. Yes, Nissan is dropping the new VQ into the G but that engine will eventually replace all the current VQ under Nissan's lineup. As for why Ford's luxury flagship won't receive a V8 is totally beyond me.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Not long ago, Avalon sold well in the 8K units(maybe even as high as 10K? - correct if mistaken)

    The fall due in part (not in any order nor equal percentage splits):

    1) Reliabilty issues
    2) Other new competitors - Lucerne, Azera
    3) Camry
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    You would think so but it's not...
  • njeraldnjerald Posts: 688
    Avalon sales YTD in 2006 thru July are 0.6% (600 vehicles) less than 7 months 2005.

    Camry sales YTD in 206 thru July are 0.9% higher (800 units) higher than the 7 months in 2005.

    Not even worth a discussion.
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    First of all, there's nothing wrong with Camry taken sales away from Avalon (if it really does). The total sale numbers still counted toward Toyota. Second, Fusion won't be competitive with the current 3.0, period. Especially with the new Altima coming with 265 HP later this year and Accord coming next year (as '08 model?) with current TL's 3.2 V6. The last but not least, since many of Fusion's competiors are equiped with their manufacturer's best V6, why can't the Fusion? With the new 3.5, Ford has a real good chance to shut those Camcord loyalists up.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    LOL...There is no thinking about the Altima's redesigned engine...Nissan themselves tells you that the Altima's engine is redesigned. I think I'd believe them over you. While the Vq in the G will still be a slightly different version from the Vq in the new Altima, they both share basic architecture...and they both are basically new for 07.

    Per, here is what Nissan themselves say about the new Altima. As you'll notice they state the Altima's engine has been redesigned.

    2007 Nissan Altima

    The next generation 2007 Nissan Altima enters its fourth generation with a redesigned platform and available next-generation VQ-series V6 engine. Along with its distinctive new styling, the 2007 Altima utilizes the all-new Nissan “D” platform with improved body rigidity and a redesigned suspension – with the development objective of making Altima one of the best performing large front-wheel drive sedans available globally.

    The new Altima also offers Nissan’s sport-tuned Xtronic CVT, a choice of the award-winning VQ-series 3.5-liter V6 or powerful 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engines, and a long list of technology features – including standard Intelligent Key with Push Button Ignition and available Bluetooth® Hands-Free Phone System, RearView Monitor and an advanced touch-screen navigation system. The 2007 Nissan Altima goes on sale in November 2006, with a hybrid version (HEV) available in eight designated states in early 2007. Details on the Altima Hybrid model will be released later.

    Features of the 2007 Altima include:
    · Redesigned, next generation VQ35 3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve V6 with an estimated 265-plus horsepower and 255-plus lb-ft of torque or a refined 2.5-liter DOHC 16-valve inline 4-cylinder with 165-plus horsepower and 170-plus lb-ft for stronger acceleration and improved sound quality
    · Standard dual exhaust with both engines, with larger intake and exhaust manifolds
    · New Xtronic CVT (available with both V6 and 4-cylinder engines) designed for fluid-feeling performance and efficient operation – V6 utilizes an all-new controller with adaptive logic and performance-tuning
    · New 6-speed manual transmission with a narrower gate and shorter shift stroke for improved shifting feel, performance and fuel economy (available with both V6 and 4-cylinder engines)
    · All-new “D” platform featuring much improved body rigidity, reduced NVH and 30 millimeter lower engine mounting position
    · New front suspension design with new geometry, half shafts now equal angle and more parallel to the ground – virtually eliminating torque steer
    · Improved rear suspension design with an emphasis on nimbleness and good ride comfort
    · Sport-tuned suspension with larger diameter stabilizer bars and unique spring rates and strut damping on 3.5 SE model
    · New power-assisted vehicle-speed-sensitive rack-and-pinion steering system helps provide light effort at low speeds, secure feeling at high speeds
    · Enhanced interior feel with refined workmanship, expanded use of soft materials (such as padded armrests) and chrome accents
    · Roomy yet sporty interior space with innovative amenities, including new Fine Vision Gauge instrument display panel, standard Intelligent Key with Push Button Ignition, convenient covered storage compartments and nine cup or bottle holders
    · Available Bluetoothâ Hands-Free Phone System with voice recognition, RearView Monitor and Nissan Navigation System
    · Standard front seat side-impact supplemental air bags for chest protection
    · Standard roof-mounted curtain side-impact air bags for front and rear outboard occupant head protection
    · Available in 3.5-liter V6, 2.5-liter 4-cylinder or Altima Hybrid models (details on the early 2007 Altima Hybrid launch are forthcoming)
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Well said and agreed - I never said lowered Avalon sales and higher Camry sales are a bad thing :) Like you said, the bottom line is still TMC.

    As for the original discussion, my point being, we would likely see higher sales of the MKZ once it lands at local lots, well, after consumers get around the name change :)

    My original point, think about it, for the reasons I would buy a Zephyr (if I was in the market for one), I would have a lot more for a Fusion, and at a much lower price. Plus, the tail on the Zephyr gives me nightmare just looking at it, I am serious. I don't know why, I just cannot justify, at least with the current Zephyr/Fusion, maybe b/c they are, in essence, the same car :confuse:
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    O RLY?

    The Altima is not using the (new) VQ35HR, it will use the VQ35DE with new internals.

    Press Release from just two days ago:

    --Engines to power all-new Skyline to be released this autumn--
    TOKYO (Aug. 22, 2006)--Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., has newly developed two new-generation six-cylinder V-type engines for front-engine, rear-wheel-drive vehicles featuring powerful performance and improved environmental friendliness.

    The 3.5L VQ35HR and 2.5L VQ25HR engines will be built at Nissan's Iwaki Plant in Fukushima Prefecture and will be equipped in the all-new Skyline to be released this autumn in Japan, as well as the US where the model is sold as the Infiniti G35.

    Featuring newly designed engine blocks and other key components, the engines offer smooth transition to top-in-class level engine speed of 7,500 revolutions per minute drawing upon the "smooth transition" concept of the popular VQ engine, the only engine in the world to appear on Ward's 10-Best Engines list for 12 consecutive years.

    The engines achieve a 10% improvement in fuel efficiency compared to vehicles equipped with the existing VQ engine and top-in-class Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle level emissions. SU-LEVs have 75% or less nitrogen oxide (NOx) and hydrocarbon (HC) emissions than those stipulated by Japan's 2005 exhaust emission standards.

    The letters "HR" in VQ35HR and VQ25HR stand for "high revolution" and "high response."

    Nissan began VQ engine production in 1994 and has produced a cumulative total of 5.5 million units as of last fiscal year, ended March 31, 2006.

    Main specifications of the VQ35HR and VQ25HR engines:

    Smooth transition to top-in-class level engine speed of 7,500 rpm

    Reduction of weight and friction through adoption of asymetrical piston skirt configuration
    Reduction of piston-side force through lengthening of con rod
    Addition of rudder frame, newly-designed cylinder block with significantly improved rigidity

    Thrilling revving sound and top-in-class output

    Adoption of perfectly symmetrical intake system
    Adoption of continuously variable valve timing control (CVTC) for intake side and electromagnetic valve timing control (e-VTC) for exhaust side
    Reduction of intake resistance through adoption of symmetrical twin intake system and straight intake port
    Adoption of isometric exhaust manifold and perfectly symmetrical exhaust system

    Improvement of fuel-efficiency and emission cleanliness

    Reduction of friction through adoption of world's first hydrogen-free, diamond-like carbon (DLC) coating
    Adoption of catalyst substrate with ultra-low heat mass, super-ignition iridium spark plug and fast light-off O2 sensor control
  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I agreed with you on Zephyr, it's tail as well as the front give me goose bumps. However I do think Ford can have success with MKZ even with it sharing a same engine with the Fusion. Look at the Camry and ES350, they are essentially the same car (just like Fusion and MKZ). But with good packaging, better interior material, industry leading customer server and a lot and I mean A LOT of fancy toys the ES350 is able to distance itself from the Camry. I believe with the same approach, Ford could have the same success as well.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Posts: 1,467
    I never said the engines were the SAME..I said they were related. The Altima still gets a redesigned VERSION of one of the Vq motors that is currently being used.

    And my point again was that the Altima does get a NEW verison of the Vq motor that will be differnt from the one in Maximas.

    I guess i should have specified that more clearly. I'm aware of the Vq used in the new G35..and I'm aware of the revised and heavily UPDATED verison of the vq series used in the new Altima that's not in the current Maxima.

    Either way...the point of this discussion was about how the Fusion makes very little power compared to the competition and how Nissan, Honda and Toyota can offer more horsepower without stepping on each other's toes. Nissan isn't so great at it, but Toyota and Honda pull this off much better.

    And I for one believe that the Fusion and the Milan both need the 3.5 asap.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    I love gadgets! And of course cars are gadgets too, but what about the gadgets in cars that are unique/helpful/or just cool.

    for the mazda 6:

    volume that raises and lowers depending on how fast you are going

    easy switches in the trunk area to get the spring loaded seats to fall forward

    my hatchback dresses like a sedan, but really is a super-wagon in disguise :shades:
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    What you guys see on the top of this page?
    CONSUMER RATING shows that Sonata is getting the highest rank. If Camcords are much better than Sonata, how would you explain this?
    Only few reviews for Sonata yet?
    I remember there were over 260 reviews for 2006 models, and Sonata was the top ranked before too.
    Maybe, all Sonata reviewers are working for Hyundai, not honest, or getting bribes from HYUNDAI?

    Reality is you can get top LX Sonata for $18,000 nowadays. $18,000 car stopped shortest, most quiet, ran second fastest 0-60, better safety rating with more standard safety features, beat Camry on 600ft with 62MPH, more room and longer warranty. Who mentioned BENCHMARK?
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,125
    Saturn dropped CVT from VUE because it could not build a CVT that would last 3 or more years without failing. A large number of unfortunate VUE CVT owners are still out there.

    Seems like a bit of a crap shoot for those who try to buy the first incarnations of the much-vaunted but not yet seen GM two-phase hybrid. Toyota managed to introduce the Prius with its additional complexity, and still quite good reliability. I guess you're a Vegas type if you gamble on brand new technology from GM.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 5,125
    The 3.0 Duratec equipped with VVT is a proven engine. It has been around now for almost 10 years and
    ...sounds like it. Compare the NVH. That's one thing the Camry owners are buying...refinement.

    A few years ago we considered a Mazda MPV as we wanted a smaller minivan. We liked the van. But that Ford engine sounded like a dryer with a couple of tennis shoes tumbling.
This discussion has been closed.