R2 dimensions in millimeters: L=3395 / W=1475 / H=1520 / Wheelbase=2360 and R2 in inches (no guarantees as to accuracy!): L=133.67 / W=58.07 / H=59.84 / Wheelbase=92.91
for comparison, here's xA in inches: L=154.1 / W=66.7 / H=60.3 / Wheelbase=93.3 Yaris hatch in inches: L=150 / W=66.7 / H=60 / Wheelbase=96.9
Under 134 inches long, that's teeny-tiny. Compared to an R2 my Miata is a full-size!
It's also very narrow, more than 8" more narrow than the already diminuitive xA.
Having said that, the R1e is even smaller and it looks a lot better. Somehow the D-pillar area is much better sorted, so it manages to look squat and sporty, more like a Mini Cooper than a toy-like Kei car.
On the other hand, R2 is much longer than the smart fortwo now for sale in the US, which is only 98.5" - that's about 3 feet difference! I think the R1 & R2 fill a nice space (dare I say "niche"?) between smart and the other subcompacts on sale in the US.
Tell you what, for any of these little cars, one bad crash test and that spells the death of the entire segment, not just that one car. They have better be as safe as possible.
Smart cars do well in crash tests, from what I've heard. Here is a wild video, hard to believe it didn't implode completely from the force of this crash:
Subaru yearning - a dealer near me has a '95 Legacy L AWD with 120K miles for $4500, stick shift. Looks to be in very good shape. A Legacy from the salad days of Subaru (at least, the BEGINNING of the salad days!)? How can I pass it up? :-)
Funny, it was parked next to a last-gen Corolla, and they were almost identical in size. I know Legacy has grown since '95, but I still think they would derive a lot of sales from having a larger model than Legacy in the line-up. Now that they will build Camrys in Indiana, maybe they could borrow the larger platform and modify it for their own use......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Ford just made a stupid decision, to not include SAC as standard in the first year. Next year it will get that, but the IIHS test gave the Fusion a black eye and a lot of bad publicity.
No excuse for a brand new model nowadays. Kia and Hyundai make them standard now.
yet another example of a manufacturer shooting themselves in the foot.
The Fusion is finally a competitive car in terms of looks, features and price, yet safety was overlooked to save a buck.
Safety alone may not sell a car, but in the ultra competitive segment that the Fusion and Milan are competing in, you've got to at least be as good as everyone else.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
Dang! I just saw this news and got all excited... I thought I was gonna be the first to post but good ol' Bob beat me to it. Thanks, Bob. You're always on the ball.
Besides the statement that diesels will be on sale before hybrids, I found the other interesting tidbit was that CEO Takenaka said the diesel would likely appear in the Legacy first. I would've expected it to be in the B9 Tribeca. Maybe it'll be a small diesel that can fit in either one.
"Fuji Heavy has yet to decide how specifically to proceed in developing gasoline-electric hybrid cars using Toyota's technology, but Takenaka said those vehicles would come to market only after the diesel products."
I wonder why they even bother showing the B5-TPH concept anymore. It was supposed to be only a showcase for the technology, not representative of design direction, so what's the point of it now that they'll incorporate Toyota tech?
I'm actually kinda bummed 'cause I feel like it's going to be a long time before we see anything new come from FHI. I know the B9 Tribeca's brand new, but other companies seem to have new models coming out constantly, or at least new concept cars to drool over or laugh at.
I think the B5-TPH, besides being a hybrid, shows a further evolution of their new design language. So, yes, I think they will continue to show it in order to get customer feedback on where they may be visually headed.
They mention flagship, and then Legacy. So maybe the Tribeca and the Legacy will get the diesel, at least before the rest.
Wonder if it'll be a 3.0l H6? Diesels tend to have a long stroke and that'll be a tight fit if they have to stroke it any more than that.
In fact I doubt such an engine would fit in the more narrow engine bay of the Forester or Impreza; it's already a tight squeeze.
Charlie - that would be a pretty incredible combination, but it might also cost a fortune. Diesels carry a price premium, and so do hybrids. I've been asking for one, but I just hope they can do it for a reasonable price.
Another issue - diesels aren't as good about shutting down again and again, in fact it would probably not shut down until the engine was fully warm.
Agreed that it looks like the Legacy would get the diesel first, based on that article. The Tribeca isn't sold in Europe yet, is it?
That article seems to imply that the diesel is targeted first and foremost for the European market. That's where the acceptance of diesel is much higher than in the U.S.
IMHO, it's not a given that Subaru would sell the diesel in the U.S. It's been very difficult for European manufacturers to launch diesels here, apparently because of high stickers, general marketplace acceptance and U.S. emissions laws. You just don't see to many diesel VW's here. The marketplace seems much more interested in gas/electric hybrids -- which still carry a big premium.
OTOH, this is good news for Subaru, I think. Getting more sales out of Europe will help their bottom line.
For the US, let's see what CARB does, it looks like they won't allow urea injection to help diesels meet the new clean air standards. If other states follow suit, diesel won't really take off in this country.
Talk about a niche within a niche. Diesels are already a tiny percentage of the consumer market, what they do own, maybe 3%? Subaru owns 1.1%. So we're talking about tiny volumes here, maybe 20,000 engines per year.
Hardly worth jumping through all the hoops. I'm sure Subaru will wait for the path to be paved before they invest a whole bunch to EPA certify these engines.
I believe that Subaru won't be late to this party and will be one of the first to develop - perhaps with toyota - a Diesel Hybrid.
Hybrid Prices will come down and unfortunately gas prices will go up. When the premium breakeven point is at 4 years for a hybrid they will begin to flood the market.
Diesel will grow in popularity and bridge the gap until electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars are perfected. This could be as much as 20 years.
Just imagine what a diesel boxer would sound like... *drools*
One reason diesels aren't as popular stateside is that there's no Japanese brand available, so the droves of consumers who want reliability with their fuel economy are forced to buy a Toyota or Honda hybrid. I've read on these boards that Honda plans to bring its 2.4L diesel from the Accord accross the pond, so see how the reaction is to that. I predict that it will be big as long as they offer the engine on less-spec'd trim levels, unlike the Accord and Civic hybrids.
Ford just self-appointed as an "AWD technology leader", according to their press release. LOL. They of course base the leadership in planning to sell 500K units/year.
But it's a serious issue for Subaru - once a volume player jumps into the field, even if their product is not nearly as good or advanced, the argument "I was here first" will only go so far. They will not be able to match the prices.
I think their infamous "going upscale" move was exactly in anticipation of that happening. I don't think they're talking upscale anymore (I think they realized nothing is happening overnight plus you need a real product before starting fanfares), but the issue remains - what to do when Ford really moves in with whatever they have and beats the price by say 4 grand?
Diesels have their own cult following, but now that I think about it, the hippie-ish folks that like them are not unlike the granola-eating crowd that loves Subies. At least there would be more overlap than usual.
Diesel+hybrid sounds great, I love the idea, but I wonder about the cost. Diesel blocks have to be reinforced so they already carry a price premium, a hybrid would command a 2nd price premium on top of that.
What if it ends up adding $4000-5000 to the cost of the vehicle? So you could get a base Forester for $20k, but a diesel-hybrid would run $25k for starters? That might work, I dunno.
Saturn Green Line is interesting in that the price premium was reduced significantly, but Subaru will get help from Toyota, so let's see how (if?) they go about it.
I think that in general the increased availability of AWD is a threat to Subaru. Even though demand keeps growing, there will be pressure on Subaru to better define and even differentiate its AWD systems from the masses.
However, I don't see Ford as their biggest threat. They are more often cross-shopped with other Asian brand names, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mazda. Probably in that order.
Ford probably doesn't make the top 5 in terms of threats to Subaru.
Honda has three different AWD systems WITH NAMES that it can use to differentiate itself from the pack.
Meanwhile, any Toyota with a "4WD" badge on the back gets a decent amount of cred simply because Toyota has been building rugged 4WDs for so long, even if the majority of the car-based Toyotas with "4WD" badges are not really 4WD. And Toyota is offering cars with AWD already, in addition to the entire line of SUVs and crossovers, and I think we can safely assume that will only increase in availability in the future.
And with Ford going big on AWD, how long will it be before there is widespread AWD availability at the Mazda store?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota's and Honda's threats are not due to AWD technology, but due to pricing/styling/general appeal. It is a static picture of current condition. However, Ford is betting specifically into snow-belt appeal. If they are able to pull off better fuel economy than Subaru, even with an inferior system or subpar performance, they may steal a large portion low-end Legacy and Impreza customers with say their I-4 or V6 Fusion treated with AWD, if the price is low enough. Same with new Escape vs. Forester. If you add Mazda to the mix, as a part of the corporation (it is also likely to receive AWD treatment) aimed at higher end Legacy and Outback, the threat is real and can't be dismissed.
Moreover, Ford's move in is justs a beginning - once one big guy gets somewhere, others will likely follow.
Forester's biggest threats are the CR-V and the RAV4. That's what most people cross-shop. Escape is mentioned far less often when people are comparing. There never even was a "Forester vs. Escape" thread, for instance, while the RAV4 one is still active and the CR-V one was for quite a while.
For the Tribeca, the Murano and probably the CX7 are the biggest threats. Why? Because the edgy styling of those 3 is on one extreme of the segment, the opposite of conservative. I guess you might add the Ford Edge to that mix, but I think pricing alone will keep them from overlapping too much.
WRX ended up competing with all sorts of sporty cars, the RSX, Civic Si, Neon SRT-4, and those aren't even AWD. I think in this sporty segment people are looking for bang-for-the-buck, so more AWD competitors won't be a threat as much as new hot hatches like the GTI (FWD again).
Outback is sort of inbetween cars and trucks, and despite the Volvo XC70 and Audi allroad quattro, doesn't really have a similarly priced competitor at all. The arrival of an AWD Magnum and an Five Hundred/Freestyle with Haldex AWD never hurt it, so I'm not sure what will.
Legacy is more mainstream, it might lose a few sales I guess. The GT competes with the TSX, the Mazda6, again mostly other asian-brand sporty sedans.
An AWD Fusion might steal a few Legacy sales, I suppose. The Edge might steal a few Forester sales, then again maybe not.
I just think that if Honda announces they'll bring over the next generation FR-V, or Toyota says they'll start selling the short wheelbase RAV4 here in the USA, those would be perceived as much bigger threats than any single Ford, IMO, which only continues to lose overall market share.
Yeah, you have a point there. My concern is even "past Ford", i.e. if they create enough momentum to actually bring AWD to mainstream, others may jump in.
On the flip side, Subaru may also benefit from AWD band wagon. Just will have to know how - they are already small company and their biggest threat is to get marginalized even further by becoming irrelevant (see Saab). Their big sale is AWD/boxer. If AWD becomes common, what is left to brag about?
You mentioned the Forester and reminded me of an area where Subaru seems to have missed the boat. Now, I know there are plenty of Forester owners here and they should know by now that I think it's a great alternative to the many competitors on the market. But let's just forget that it even exists for a moment.
With the RAV4 in 1996, the US market suddenly finds itself presented with a new variation on a popular theme. It looks like an SUV, but it handles like a car. Honda follows Toyota with the CR-V 1997 and suddenly this niche is the fastest growing segment on the continent.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Subaru SHOULD have absolutely owned this segment? They already had the Outback, so they had a foothold in the same demographic. They certainly had the technology. It seems to me like a segment where Subaru should have cleaned house.
Honda does 140-150K units per year. Ford does about 170K with just the Escape. (The clones add another 40-60k.) Chevy's Equinox is doing well over 130K last time I checked. Even companies like Hyundai (not known for trucks or AWD) are doing brisk sales. Rough estimate, Subaru is selling something like 50-60K annually.
Now, the Forester hasn't done badly. That's not my point. It's one of the success stories in the Subaru line. But compared with what it *could* have been, its presence in the market seems a little under-whelming. I mean, this is a segment made for Subaru.
If you agree that this segment represents a missed opportunity, do you think it is something which can be fixed? Or do you think 50-60K is the best Subaru could do when faced with so much competition?
all of the competitors except the RAV had more space inside, especially in back and for rear-seat passengers. I think that was the key. The Forester was just a high-roofed Impreza, and I know how tight the Impreza is in back, as I had one for five years.
So then they came out with the Tribeca. Now they have a spacious crossover that is overpriced for its segment by a couple grand.
If they HADN'T STRETCHED the Legacy platform as they did with the Tribeca, but had just made a high-roofed Legacy, it would have hit the sweet spot for space and probably could have been priced much lower than the 'Beca since they wouldn't have had to do anywhere near as much work on the platform. Indeed, that is the secret to the very reasonable prices (relatively speaking) of the Forester - all the expensive platform development was done for the Impreza and was already complete when it came time for the Forester.
Having 2/3 the number of dealers (or less when compared to Toyota, and WAY less when compared to Chevy/Ford) doesn't help either.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yeah, I sorta agree. I think this is just another case of where Subaru has been slow to react, and haven't fully realized their full potential.
My gut feeling is this may have to do with the fact that they are a small company and don't have the resources to do all the things they want or need to do.
Another reason is (I think) Subaru management are pretty conservative, and as a result, have been slow to react. I felt this to be the case for a long, long time.
Lastly, Subaru styling: The Forester and Impreza have been hampered with bland if not somewhat awkward styling for some time. The Legacy and Outback I think are very handsome cars, but the Impreza and Forester are sort of the like the girl you date because of her personality, not her looks. I think this has hurt them.
I really hope (and pray) that the '08 Forester is larger, at least on the inside. I've been saying for years here on Edmunds that it needs ~ 103" wheelbase.
Also, now the Rav4 has an optional 3.5L, 269 HP V6. That's going to throw this class of vehicle into a tailspin. Not only will the Forester be affected, but so will the CRV, et al.
That engine is bigger and more powerful than that found in the Tribeca! What's Subaru going to do here? I sure hope the next LL Bean Forester will get at least the 3.0 H6, but even that can't compete head-to-head with the Rav4's larger V6.
Anybody here drive the Rav4 V6? I have—and it's pretty darn impressive; plus it runs on regular gas too.
It's long been known that Subaru is working on a turbo H6. One very strong rumor is that it may even be a twin-turbo. Displacement? Who knows? Maybe the 3.0, or maybe even larger?
With that in mind, I expect that turbo to find its way into the Tribeca and Legacy/Outback. It could(?) even replace the 2.5 turbo now in the Legacy GT/Outback XT?
If that happpens, I would expect the 250 HP 2.5 turbo, now found in the Legacy GT, to become the standard engine in the WRX and Forester XT. I also expect to see 6-speed manuals on those models when these get redesigned for 2008.
I guess at the time of the Forester intro (late 1997), Subaru's most successful model was the Outback, and they were not going to bet the farm on a new model in a new segment.
They bottomed out just two year prior (1995) after trying to go head-to-head with Honda and Toyota (FWD and all) and nearly went bankrupt.
Now imagine you're a bean counter for FHI and the engineers ask you for a huge budget in order to....go head-to-head against Honda and Toyota! You would have laughed at the idea.
Today, in hindsight, it seems like they should have invested more in this segment, but at the time, betting all the chips to go up against industry giants in this new segment probably seemed like suicide.
So they created the original Forester on pretty much a shoe-string budget. They used the Impreza platform and all existing engines, so only the body work was new, really.
Now this is a more interesting time for sport/cutes. It's clearly worth investing in the new model, and the segment keeps evolving so they really have to. There is a lot more competition but there are also a lot more buyers.
Those buyers are also willing to spend $25k nowadays, while in 1998 it was more like $18-22k.
I got my C&D in the mail yesterday, and noticed that in the sub-compact $15k comparo most of those tiny cars have longer wheelbases than the Forester does today. So I agree with Bob here, Forester has to grow just to keep up with the segment.
However, there is a fiercely loyal group that wants a small SUV that is light and nimble, so what I'd propose is two wheelbases, a regular model and a Grand Forester. In fact I've been asking for this since I had my 2nd kid!
Toyota actually has two wheelbases for the RAV4. The european one is about a foot shorter and sits on a shorter wheelbase. There is no 3rd row option. The vehicle is much better suited to the roads and parking spots in Europe and Asia. Meanwhile, the stretched US model has been a hit, they can't keep up with demand right now.
I think this strategy would be cheaper than what the manufacturers do with the Camry and Accord, for instance, where two entirely different vehicles are required. It's much cheaper to change only the wheelbase and length.
I suspect Subaru would only sell the short one in certain markets, probably Europe and Asia, but I'd like to see them sell both here. Lucien, Frank, Ed, those guys all want a SPORT utility, but most Americans want a sport UTILITY.
I doubt they would sell a LWB and SWB version here. Toyota opted not to do that with the RAV4. I'm absolutely convinced that Subaru could make the LWB version very sporty in terms of handling.
I should drive a RAV4. Hutch is actually shopping for one now, so he liked the handling.
I want something small but I sort of need something big.
If the Forester stays the same size, I hope we end up getting that people mover they're supposed to build. I hope they can package it more or less like the Mazda5. Perfect size for my needs, and not too big on the outside.
I think the biggie is that they managed to squeeze out 269 horses and it uses regular fuel, and not a lot of it (per EPA anyway).
While the Forester XT is actually quicker, it requires premium and mileage isn't as good.
In the real world, they're about the same (RAV4 V6 reports are actually lower), but consumers look at the Monroney and see 20/27 for the AWD V6 and they're snapping them up as quickly as Toyota can build 'em.
People are getting 18-22mpg or so, so I don't know how realistic the 20/27 numbers are, but they can really work their magic on the EPA tests.
Looks like the Mitsubishi Outlander, which I've seen folks cross-shop with Forester, is going larger like the RAV4, offering V6, third row, and high-tech features. Offers bluetooth, 650-watt(!) stereo, NAV, passive entry system, paddle shifters.
Forester falls behind on size, engine size, and technology. Top-end models of the RAV and Outlander seem to compete more with B9 Tribeca than with Forester! Somebody does need to anchor the small end of the size range, though. Forester's traditional competitors are growing up and new small ones (Caliber, Tucson?) are arriving.
"The 2007 Outlander debuts the all-new 3.0L V6 MIVEC engine and features a standard six-speed Sportronic(R) automatic transmission with one-touch manual shifting and adaptive electronics. The Outlander XLS adds rally inspired Sportronic steering wheel paddle shifters for shifting control at the driver's fingertips. All Wheel Control (AWC), an advanced version of all-wheel drive is available. An innovative two-piece flap-fold rear tailgate makes cargo loading easy, and an in-floor stowable third-row seat adds to the XLS model's versatility. Technology is one of the hallmarks of the new Outlander, including a standard Bluetooth(R) hands-free cellular phone interface, advanced FAST-Key access system, and optional 650-watt Rockford Fosgate(R) audio system and DVD entertainment. A new hard-drive navigation system option will be state of the art."
While the engine size is 2.5l, it's still the quickest SUV in the segment, even with the automatic.
Also, the RAV4 feels smaller, especially in terms of width, next to a Tribeca. Note the middle seat in the Tribeca is 40/20/40, almost like 3 individual seats. The 2nd row bench in the RAV4 is one area of criticism in the RAV4 thread, it's too low and narrow they're saying.
Tucson and Grand Vitara are the ones that are still truly compact. Subaru's problem is that both are on the low end of the price scale, so Forester will appear to be high-priced next to those.
Outlander has been such a fringe player that I hardly perceive them as a threat. Plus Mitsu is in bad shape. I guess this could help them sneak up on people. I've seen photos but I'll check it out in person at the NY show.
I still think a loaded, three-row Outlander or RAV4 would be cross-shopped with Tribeca rather than Forester. All have 6-cyl engine, three rows of seating, much more interior room, sit higher and offer more features than Forester. MSRP on an LL Bean Forester is $27k. MSRP on a loaded 3-row RAV4 (w/o DVD) is about $32k. MSRP on a 3-row B9 Tribeca Limited is $34,500. I'd say the RAV and Tribeca are in the same price range, especially with Subaru dealers much more willing to deal on a Tribeca than Toyota dealers are on a RAV.
The exception would be those folks you mentioned looking for a SPORT utility - they'd probably compare the 6-cyl Outlander & RAV with an XT.
"I guess at the time of the Forester intro (late 1997), Subaru's most successful model was the Outback, and they were not going to bet the farm on a new model in a new segment."
That's a good point. I wasn't thinking about it in that light. At the time, no one knew that small SUVs would become more than a small niche in the market. To that end, Honda dealers in the US actually turned down the CR-V in 1996. It wasn't until the RAV4 took off that the Americans decided to import the CR-V in 1997.
So I can see why Subaru wouldn't spend a great deal of money on the segment, nor would they want to build something a little larger and risk competition with their own Outback.
That helps explain why the Forester didn't exactly come out swinging. Doesn't explain why it's still a bit of a wallflower, but I guess that's a separate issue.
Toyota is betting that the four cyl RAV is still the bread and butter of the segment. At the time of release, they were expecting only 30% of RAVs to be sold with the V6. Dunno if that has panned out, but that was their target.
I see this vehicle as being much more competitive with the Outback than the Tribeca. The Tribeca is more upscale, larger on the inside, and, frankly, a bit more adult.
Comments
Anyone have the dimensions handy? This is actually smaller than a car like the Honda Fit, for instance. Smaller than an xA as well, I believe.
-juice
L=3395 / W=1475 / H=1520 / Wheelbase=2360
and R2 in inches (no guarantees as to accuracy!):
L=133.67 / W=58.07 / H=59.84 / Wheelbase=92.91
for comparison, here's xA in inches:
L=154.1 / W=66.7 / H=60.3 / Wheelbase=93.3
Yaris hatch in inches:
L=150 / W=66.7 / H=60 / Wheelbase=96.9
It's also very narrow, more than 8" more narrow than the already diminuitive xA.
Having said that, the R1e is even smaller and it looks a lot better. Somehow the D-pillar area is much better sorted, so it manages to look squat and sporty, more like a Mini Cooper than a toy-like Kei car.
Link to photo from another thread:
jeffmc, "Subaru Crew - Future Models II" #17768, 23 Mar 2006 2:05 am
-juice
-juice
Smart cars do well in crash tests, from what I've heard. Here is a wild video, hard to believe it didn't implode completely from the force of this crash:
http://youtube.com/w/Crash-Test---Smart%2C-Opel-Corsa-%28Comparativa%29?v=Q3uv9a- 4t0rM&search=crash%20test
-juice
Rocky
Funny, it was parked next to a last-gen Corolla, and they were almost identical in size. I know Legacy has grown since '95, but I still think they would derive a lot of sales from having a larger model than Legacy in the line-up. Now that they will build Camrys in Indiana, maybe they could borrow the larger platform and modify it for their own use......
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
No excuse for a brand new model nowadays. Kia and Hyundai make them standard now.
-juice
The Fusion is finally a competitive car in terms of looks, features and price, yet safety was overlooked to save a buck.
Safety alone may not sell a car, but in the ultra competitive segment that the Fusion and Milan are competing in, you've got to at least be as good as everyone else.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
-juice
Besides the statement that diesels will be on sale before hybrids, I found the other interesting tidbit was that CEO Takenaka said the diesel would likely appear in the Legacy first. I would've expected it to be in the B9 Tribeca. Maybe it'll be a small diesel that can fit in either one.
I wonder why they even bother showing the B5-TPH concept anymore. It was supposed to be only a showcase for the technology, not representative of design direction, so what's the point of it now that they'll incorporate Toyota tech?
I'm actually kinda bummed 'cause I feel like it's going to be a long time before we see anything new come from FHI. I know the B9 Tribeca's brand new, but other companies seem to have new models coming out constantly, or at least new concept cars to drool over or laugh at.
Bob
I posted it over on Straightline too.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/.ee90269
Bob
FHI has developed a battery that is supposed to be better than toyota's in replacement cost.
Toyota partners up with SIA
Subaru is now developing a diesel.
Hmmmm - I predict they enter the Hybrid market with a turbo diesel hybrid.
Patience is a virtue.
Charlie
Wonder if it'll be a 3.0l H6? Diesels tend to have a long stroke and that'll be a tight fit if they have to stroke it any more than that.
In fact I doubt such an engine would fit in the more narrow engine bay of the Forester or Impreza; it's already a tight squeeze.
Charlie - that would be a pretty incredible combination, but it might also cost a fortune. Diesels carry a price premium, and so do hybrids. I've been asking for one, but I just hope they can do it for a reasonable price.
Another issue - diesels aren't as good about shutting down again and again, in fact it would probably not shut down until the engine was fully warm.
-juice
That article seems to imply that the diesel is targeted first and foremost for the European market. That's where the acceptance of diesel is much higher than in the U.S.
IMHO, it's not a given that Subaru would sell the diesel in the U.S. It's been very difficult for European manufacturers to launch diesels here, apparently because of high stickers, general marketplace acceptance and U.S. emissions laws. You just don't see to many diesel VW's here. The marketplace seems much more interested in gas/electric hybrids -- which still carry a big premium.
OTOH, this is good news for Subaru, I think. Getting more sales out of Europe will help their bottom line.
For the US, let's see what CARB does, it looks like they won't allow urea injection to help diesels meet the new clean air standards. If other states follow suit, diesel won't really take off in this country.
Talk about a niche within a niche. Diesels are already a tiny percentage of the consumer market, what they do own, maybe 3%? Subaru owns 1.1%. So we're talking about tiny volumes here, maybe 20,000 engines per year.
Hardly worth jumping through all the hoops. I'm sure Subaru will wait for the path to be paved before they invest a whole bunch to EPA certify these engines.
-juice
I believe that Subaru won't be late to this party and will be one of the first to develop - perhaps with toyota - a Diesel Hybrid.
Hybrid Prices will come down and unfortunately gas prices will go up. When the premium breakeven point is at 4 years for a hybrid they will begin to flood the market.
Diesel will grow in popularity and bridge the gap until electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars are perfected. This could be as much as 20 years.
This is my vision of the future.
Charlie
One reason diesels aren't as popular stateside is that there's no Japanese brand available, so the droves of consumers who want reliability with their fuel economy are forced to buy a Toyota or Honda hybrid. I've read on these boards that Honda plans to bring its 2.4L diesel from the Accord accross the pond, so see how the reaction is to that. I predict that it will be big as long as they offer the engine on less-spec'd trim levels, unlike the Accord and Civic hybrids.
But it's a serious issue for Subaru - once a volume player jumps into the field, even if their product is not nearly as good or advanced, the argument "I was here first" will only go so far. They will not be able to match the prices.
I think their infamous "going upscale" move was exactly in anticipation of that happening. I don't think they're talking upscale anymore (I think they realized nothing is happening overnight plus you need a real product before starting fanfares), but the issue remains - what to do when Ford really moves in with whatever they have and beats the price by say 4 grand?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Diesel+hybrid sounds great, I love the idea, but I wonder about the cost. Diesel blocks have to be reinforced so they already carry a price premium, a hybrid would command a 2nd price premium on top of that.
What if it ends up adding $4000-5000 to the cost of the vehicle? So you could get a base Forester for $20k, but a diesel-hybrid would run $25k for starters? That might work, I dunno.
Saturn Green Line is interesting in that the price premium was reduced significantly, but Subaru will get help from Toyota, so let's see how (if?) they go about it.
-juice
However, I don't see Ford as their biggest threat. They are more often cross-shopped with other Asian brand names, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Mazda. Probably in that order.
Ford probably doesn't make the top 5 in terms of threats to Subaru.
-juice
Meanwhile, any Toyota with a "4WD" badge on the back gets a decent amount of cred simply because Toyota has been building rugged 4WDs for so long, even if the majority of the car-based Toyotas with "4WD" badges are not really 4WD. And Toyota is offering cars with AWD already, in addition to the entire line of SUVs and crossovers, and I think we can safely assume that will only increase in availability in the future.
And with Ford going big on AWD, how long will it be before there is widespread AWD availability at the Mazda store?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Moreover, Ford's move in is justs a beginning - once one big guy gets somewhere, others will likely follow.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Forester's biggest threats are the CR-V and the RAV4. That's what most people cross-shop. Escape is mentioned far less often when people are comparing. There never even was a "Forester vs. Escape" thread, for instance, while the RAV4 one is still active and the CR-V one was for quite a while.
For the Tribeca, the Murano and probably the CX7 are the biggest threats. Why? Because the edgy styling of those 3 is on one extreme of the segment, the opposite of conservative. I guess you might add the Ford Edge to that mix, but I think pricing alone will keep them from overlapping too much.
WRX ended up competing with all sorts of sporty cars, the RSX, Civic Si, Neon SRT-4, and those aren't even AWD. I think in this sporty segment people are looking for bang-for-the-buck, so more AWD competitors won't be a threat as much as new hot hatches like the GTI (FWD again).
Outback is sort of inbetween cars and trucks, and despite the Volvo XC70 and Audi allroad quattro, doesn't really have a similarly priced competitor at all. The arrival of an AWD Magnum and an Five Hundred/Freestyle with Haldex AWD never hurt it, so I'm not sure what will.
Legacy is more mainstream, it might lose a few sales I guess. The GT competes with the TSX, the Mazda6, again mostly other asian-brand sporty sedans.
An AWD Fusion might steal a few Legacy sales, I suppose. The Edge might steal a few Forester sales, then again maybe not.
I just think that if Honda announces they'll bring over the next generation FR-V, or Toyota says they'll start selling the short wheelbase RAV4 here in the USA, those would be perceived as much bigger threats than any single Ford, IMO, which only continues to lose overall market share.
-juice
On the flip side, Subaru may also benefit from AWD band wagon. Just will have to know how - they are already small company and their biggest threat is to get marginalized even further by becoming irrelevant (see Saab). Their big sale is AWD/boxer. If AWD becomes common, what is left to brag about?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-juice
With the RAV4 in 1996, the US market suddenly finds itself presented with a new variation on a popular theme. It looks like an SUV, but it handles like a car. Honda follows Toyota with the CR-V 1997 and suddenly this niche is the fastest growing segment on the continent.
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Subaru SHOULD have absolutely owned this segment? They already had the Outback, so they had a foothold in the same demographic. They certainly had the technology. It seems to me like a segment where Subaru should have cleaned house.
Honda does 140-150K units per year. Ford does about 170K with just the Escape. (The clones add another 40-60k.) Chevy's Equinox is doing well over 130K last time I checked. Even companies like Hyundai (not known for trucks or AWD) are doing brisk sales. Rough estimate, Subaru is selling something like 50-60K annually.
Now, the Forester hasn't done badly. That's not my point. It's one of the success stories in the Subaru line. But compared with what it *could* have been, its presence in the market seems a little under-whelming. I mean, this is a segment made for Subaru.
If you agree that this segment represents a missed opportunity, do you think it is something which can be fixed? Or do you think 50-60K is the best Subaru could do when faced with so much competition?
So then they came out with the Tribeca. Now they have a spacious crossover that is overpriced for its segment by a couple grand.
If they HADN'T STRETCHED the Legacy platform as they did with the Tribeca, but had just made a high-roofed Legacy, it would have hit the sweet spot for space and probably could have been priced much lower than the 'Beca since they wouldn't have had to do anywhere near as much work on the platform. Indeed, that is the secret to the very reasonable prices (relatively speaking) of the Forester - all the expensive platform development was done for the Impreza and was already complete when it came time for the Forester.
Having 2/3 the number of dealers (or less when compared to Toyota, and WAY less when compared to Chevy/Ford) doesn't help either.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My gut feeling is this may have to do with the fact that they are a small company and don't have the resources to do all the things they want or need to do.
Another reason is (I think) Subaru management are pretty conservative, and as a result, have been slow to react. I felt this to be the case for a long, long time.
Lastly, Subaru styling: The Forester and Impreza have been hampered with bland if not somewhat awkward styling for some time. The Legacy and Outback I think are very handsome cars, but the Impreza and Forester are sort of the like the girl you date because of her personality, not her looks. I think this has hurt them.
Bob
Also, now the Rav4 has an optional 3.5L, 269 HP V6. That's going to throw this class of vehicle into a tailspin. Not only will the Forester be affected, but so will the CRV, et al.
That engine is bigger and more powerful than that found in the Tribeca! What's Subaru going to do here? I sure hope the next LL Bean Forester will get at least the 3.0 H6, but even that can't compete head-to-head with the Rav4's larger V6.
Anybody here drive the Rav4 V6? I have—and it's pretty darn impressive; plus it runs on regular gas too.
Bob
With that in mind, I expect that turbo to find its way into the Tribeca and Legacy/Outback. It could(?) even replace the 2.5 turbo now in the Legacy GT/Outback XT?
If that happpens, I would expect the 250 HP 2.5 turbo, now found in the Legacy GT, to become the standard engine in the WRX and Forester XT. I also expect to see 6-speed manuals on those models when these get redesigned for 2008.
Bob
They bottomed out just two year prior (1995) after trying to go head-to-head with Honda and Toyota (FWD and all) and nearly went bankrupt.
Now imagine you're a bean counter for FHI and the engineers ask you for a huge budget in order to....go head-to-head against Honda and Toyota! You would have laughed at the idea.
Today, in hindsight, it seems like they should have invested more in this segment, but at the time, betting all the chips to go up against industry giants in this new segment probably seemed like suicide.
So they created the original Forester on pretty much a shoe-string budget. They used the Impreza platform and all existing engines, so only the body work was new, really.
-juice
Those buyers are also willing to spend $25k nowadays, while in 1998 it was more like $18-22k.
I got my C&D in the mail yesterday, and noticed that in the sub-compact $15k comparo most of those tiny cars have longer wheelbases than the Forester does today. So I agree with Bob here, Forester has to grow just to keep up with the segment.
However, there is a fiercely loyal group that wants a small SUV that is light and nimble, so what I'd propose is two wheelbases, a regular model and a Grand Forester. In fact I've been asking for this since I had my 2nd kid!
Toyota actually has two wheelbases for the RAV4. The european one is about a foot shorter and sits on a shorter wheelbase. There is no 3rd row option. The vehicle is much better suited to the roads and parking spots in Europe and Asia. Meanwhile, the stretched US model has been a hit, they can't keep up with demand right now.
I think this strategy would be cheaper than what the manufacturers do with the Camry and Accord, for instance, where two entirely different vehicles are required. It's much cheaper to change only the wheelbase and length.
I suspect Subaru would only sell the short one in certain markets, probably Europe and Asia, but I'd like to see them sell both here. Lucien, Frank, Ed, those guys all want a SPORT utility, but most Americans want a sport UTILITY.
Subaru could have both.
-juice
Bob
I want something small but I sort of need something big.
If the Forester stays the same size, I hope we end up getting that people mover they're supposed to build. I hope they can package it more or less like the Mazda5. Perfect size for my needs, and not too big on the outside.
FWD and not quite enough power, though.
-juice
Bob
While the Forester XT is actually quicker, it requires premium and mileage isn't as good.
In the real world, they're about the same (RAV4 V6 reports are actually lower), but consumers look at the Monroney and see 20/27 for the AWD V6 and they're snapping them up as quickly as Toyota can build 'em.
People are getting 18-22mpg or so, so I don't know how realistic the 20/27 numbers are, but they can really work their magic on the EPA tests.
-juice
Forester falls behind on size, engine size, and technology. Top-end models of the RAV and Outlander seem to compete more with B9 Tribeca than with Forester! Somebody does need to anchor the small end of the size range, though. Forester's traditional competitors are growing up and new small ones (Caliber, Tucson?) are arriving.
"The 2007 Outlander debuts the all-new 3.0L V6 MIVEC engine and features a standard six-speed Sportronic(R) automatic transmission with one-touch manual shifting and adaptive electronics. The Outlander XLS adds rally inspired Sportronic steering wheel paddle shifters for shifting control at the driver's fingertips. All Wheel Control (AWC), an advanced version of all-wheel drive is available. An innovative two-piece flap-fold rear tailgate makes cargo loading easy, and an in-floor stowable third-row seat adds to the XLS model's versatility. Technology is one of the hallmarks of the new Outlander, including a standard Bluetooth(R) hands-free cellular phone interface, advanced FAST-Key access system, and optional 650-watt Rockford Fosgate(R) audio system and DVD entertainment. A new hard-drive navigation system option will be state of the art."
Also, the RAV4 feels smaller, especially in terms of width, next to a Tribeca. Note the middle seat in the Tribeca is 40/20/40, almost like 3 individual seats. The 2nd row bench in the RAV4 is one area of criticism in the RAV4 thread, it's too low and narrow they're saying.
Tucson and Grand Vitara are the ones that are still truly compact. Subaru's problem is that both are on the low end of the price scale, so Forester will appear to be high-priced next to those.
Outlander has been such a fringe player that I hardly perceive them as a threat. Plus Mitsu is in bad shape. I guess this could help them sneak up on people. I've seen photos but I'll check it out in person at the NY show.
-juice
The exception would be those folks you mentioned looking for a SPORT utility - they'd probably compare the 6-cyl Outlander & RAV with an XT.
That's a good point. I wasn't thinking about it in that light. At the time, no one knew that small SUVs would become more than a small niche in the market. To that end, Honda dealers in the US actually turned down the CR-V in 1996. It wasn't until the RAV4 took off that the Americans decided to import the CR-V in 1997.
So I can see why Subaru wouldn't spend a great deal of money on the segment, nor would they want to build something a little larger and risk competition with their own Outback.
That helps explain why the Forester didn't exactly come out swinging. Doesn't explain why it's still a bit of a wallflower, but I guess that's a separate issue.
I see this vehicle as being much more competitive with the Outback than the Tribeca. The Tribeca is more upscale, larger on the inside, and, frankly, a bit more adult.