Subaru's fortunes sinking - can they turn it around?

atlgaxt

One thing to keep in mind with the Forester, beyond the fact that Subaru tried to keep development costs low by platform sharing is that compared to the other cute utes, Subaru does get a bit of a price premium. That partly explains their lower sales.

ateixeira

Jeff: yeah, Edmunds' as-tested price for the RAV4 was $32.7k, and it didn't even have the 3rd row. So you certainly can load it up enough that prices overlap a bit with the Tribeca.

That's how Toyota is, though. An a-la-carte menu, with loads of options, max price being sky-high. I don't get the impression, from the RAV4 threads, that many of them break $28k in the real-world, though.

Maybe Toyota is waiting to replace the Highlander before they start making too many loaded RAV4s? Probably.

varmint: that "wallflower" has been C&D's and CR's favorite small SUV all along. Still is, as a matter of fact. :P

-juice

ateixeira

I have to agree, since the intro the Forester has made things like ABS, AWD, and most of the power stuff standard even on the "base" model. Subaru made a conscious decision not to chase after the $16-18k buyer with a stripper model.

That was sort of a last-minute decision. They actually announced base, L, and S models, but the base model never was sold in the US. That fooled even the giants like Kelley Blue Book.

So they sacrificed some volume, certainly.

-juice

varmint

Okay, so even with the advantages of winning awards from major publications, it doesn't move the sales meter very much.

I'm not suggesting the Forester isn't a good vehicle. It's a great vehicle.

I'm saying it hasn't sold well in the market. That's a curious thing since it seems like exactly the kind of vehicle segment where Subaru would excel.

varmint

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/funonwheels/03/30/subaru_police.reut/index.html

ateixeira

Saw that earlier today.

Italian, French, and Australian police all use Subarus in their fleets, mostly as pursuit vehicles.

A couple of pics are below. The 2nd one is funny - they're common enough that a bogus Subaru gets traffic to slow down.

-juice

rsholland

I just posted that link over on Straightline, to go up tomorrow.

Yes, the WRX and other turbo Subies are favorites as police cars around the world, as juice indicated. The Aussies have long used WRX police cars.

Here's a link showing Forester turbos being used in the UK as police cars.

Bob

ateixeira

Cool...turbo, too.

ateixeira

I'm not sure I want Subaru to grow too much, I'd certainly hate to see them sell out and go mainstream (FWD).

You can be small and still be profitable. They can achieve economies of scale by sharing some parts with Toyota, for instance, things that don't subtract from the overall character of the vehicle.

Example: A/C compressor, battery, anything behind the scenes, if you will. Keep the boxer engine and the AWD, though.

I guess I like that they are a niche manufacturer, and don't want to see the character watered down at all. If it doesn't have a boxer, it's not a Subaru, at least to me.

-juice

garandman

One reason diesels aren't as popular stateside is that there's no Japanese brand available...

Along withthe fact that most modern diesels can't burn the high sulphur fuels used in the US; the government doesn't subsidize diesel fuel, so it costs more than gas; and diesels don't meet the stricter emissions standards of many states.

When folks have to start replacing hybrid batteries they're going to get even less popular than they are now.

ateixeira

It goes beyond that, the Feds actually tax diesel fuel at a higher rate than gasoline. So if you look at it that way, they actually subsidize gas prices!

Diesel costs less to refine, even the low-sulfur stuff, so it makes no sense for it to cost more at the pumps.

Around here diesel costs a good 25-30 cents more per gallon than regular unleaded.

-juice

dino001

Please, do not EVER call lower taxation a subsidy :mad: ! It is like thanking a robber that they did not take your watch with the wallet. :sick:

jeffmc

Best-ever March for Subaru, but if you look closer, it's the Impreza carrying the load. All other models (except Tribeca, which hasn't been around for a year yet) are essentially flat or down vs. last March. And hey, juice, Forester outsold Outback. I'm sure Subaru would be happy if they sold this volume every month, though.

March numbers here

nippononly

the oldest model? :confuse:

rsholland

The restyling and updated '06 Impreza has been doing great since it hit the streets. Monthly sales are way up over earlier models.

Bob

nippononly

that the '06 Impreza has yet another new nose (the third in five years? I forget) and they have added a few knick-knacks like standard side airbags, but under the skin it is the same Impreza we have had almost since the turn of the decade.

Does that make it the oldest model, or is the current Forester older? I forget when the Forester came along.

rsholland

Not completely true. The WRX now has a 2.5 motor and significant other mechanical upgrades , such as larger brakes, 17" wheels.

Bob

nippononly

I see, so dropping the turbo 2.5 in the WRX has revitalized WRX sales and given it a second wind, eh?

Alas, the rest of the Impreza line continues in obscurity. They have had a $199/mo lease promo on it forever and a day - I wonder if it has been very popular.

They have put large-ish cash incentives on every model they have, except one: the Impreza Outback. Why, I don't know. I was seriously considering one as an alternative to replacing my truck last fall. In the end, I got into a 60K-mile 4Runner for less money than I could whittle the dealer down to on an Outback Sport, which is why I went with another truck.

The omission seems short-sighted, given that they are up to $2000 cash back on the big Outback now, and the small Outback is an older model.

ateixeira

dino: fuel taxes are a given. Death and Taxes. I was operating under that assumption.

Guess we could say Diesel is penalized at a far higher rate!

Great March but they really needed it, they had a slow start for the year. Winter wasn't as cold as they had hoped, I'm sure. We got very little snow here in the Mid Atlantic, for instance.

All-time record isn't that big a deal because I don't think Tribeca production was in full swing last year. They should be breaking records.

Forester sales are very impressive, given the new RAV4 has been popular, and especially since it actually has smaller incentives than the Outback (except the base X models).

Impreza came out in 2002, and got face-lifts in 2004 and 2006 IIRC. Forester came out in 2003 and got a face-lift for 2006. Forester did get the 2.5T engine first, though.

-juice

jeffmc

They did put the NA 2.5L in all the other Imprezas, so everyone saw a power boost. Some safety upgrades were also added: dual-stage front airbags and front and side head/chest airbags. Even the base models now come with 16" alloys and air filtration. Sure it's not a new model, but the upgrades are substantial, I think.

Baja's the most long in the tooth, design-wise, but it hardly counts anyway. I guess we won't have that model to pick on for too many more months.

ateixeira

The EJ25 was refined, but it's still the same basic block on the normally aspirated models. I makes 173hp instead of 165hp, mostly tuning changes.

-juice

jeffmc

Sheesh - don't know where my head was at. I was thinking the Imprezas were the 2.2s prior to '06... I'm about, what, three years behind or so?

Maybe the displacement increase for the WRX threw me into thinking that all Imprezas had smaller displacement engines. Yep, that must be it. That, or I'm getting old. I gave some basically incorrect info on Fit vs. Yaris the other day, too. *shakes head in disgrace*

ateixeira

In the US, they stopped using the EJ22 engine when the new Impreza came out in MY2002. Surprising, because EJ255 is quite large for a base engine.

WRX was 2.0T (code: EJ20) from 02-05 and now the 06s have the 2.5T (code: EJ257).

To make things really confusing, the EJ255 is different than the EJ57. Same bore centers and all that, but different block construction, since the turbos have a semi-closed deck block.

-juice

jeffmc

Now I know why I prefer cars with names rather than numerical nomenclature. :sick:

oregonboy

Amen, brother!

Auto makers used to have to put some effort into creating names for their cars... well, maybe they still do. Can you imagine a group of MBA marketing-type brainstorming names for the new slick-mobile?

Ok, JR, how about "FPR"?
Na, sounds like an ex-president.

Well then, what do you think about "SXZ"?
I like it, but the "SX" thing has been done to death.

They go on for hours and finally settle on "____" (you fill in the blanks)...

james

ateixeira

I can't disagree...I like names, too.

Subaru used B9X at first, B for Boxer, 9 for the wheelbase size (biggest in the lineup), and X for crossover. But it didn't fly, they used B9 Tribeca instead, and most people just call it a Tribeca.

Mazda went further, with Mazda3 and Mazda6. People still call it just 3 or 6. Even the MazdaSpeed6 is usually called the MS6 or simply Speed6. People will abbreviate, by nature.

I guess they want you to say the manufacturer's name and remember that, not "Miata". So now it's Mazda MX-5. People still call it Miata though.

-juice

oregonboy

The classic case, of course, was when Honda dropped the name "Legend" because it had better public name-recognition than did "Acura". :confuse:

james

ateixeira

And their flagship hasn't been the same since. Acura has been fine though, so in the long run it may be better for them.

I'd hate to see Subaru use names like B4 (Impreza), After, B6X (Forester), B8 (Legacy), B9 (non-malignant), etc.



-juice

alaskanwill

...is that it may be interpreted by Subaru as positive consumer response to their atrocious new design direction. Hopefully they will be able to swallow their pride and revert to more traditional (if bland) but infinitely aesthetically superior styling. Something tells me that won't happen though, as big-wig corporate head honchos don't like to admit mistakes.

I would cry if such a great car make goes under simply because there aren't enough people out there who want to plunk down $25K on something that would crack mirrors.

rsholland

..is that it may be interpreted by Subaru as positive consumer response to their atrocious new design direction.

Maybe that says more about your taste, than that of new Subaru Impreza owners. They obviously like it, or they wouldn't have bought one.

Bob

ateixeira

Noone spends their good money and buys a car they find "atrocious", so your opinion is clearly in the minority.

Subaru just held an open house on the GWU campus and they brought 2 Imprezas, a WRX and an Outback Sport. Both were mobbed by students crawling all around in in them, so response was good there too.

-juice

robr2

...is doing their own thing again.

A few weeks ago we discussed their "Subaru AWD - It's All I'll Drive" campaign.

Looks like they've gone to "Feel The Freedom".

Think, Feel, Drive is incorporated with the tradtional images of pine lined twisties, kayaing, snowboarding but they've tossed in the hustle and bustle of city living and summer activities.

Go Here: Feel The Freedom and click on the same words at the top of the page.

Could this work nationwide??

ateixeira

Maybe...I associate the word "freedom" with american brands, for some reason.

-juice

varmint

Now we'll have Subie apologists complaining that people hate them for their freedom.

ateixeira

The funny thing was when DCX painted a bunch of its cars in stars and stripes themes after 9/11, cars built in Mexico (PT) and Canada (LH), all from a German controlled company!

-juice

jeffmc

Looks like B9 Tribeca just got some serious competition. Here are photos of the Mazda CX-9. Seems very similar... 3rd row looks idential, 2nd row very similar, and check out the gauge cluster photo (ripoff!). Both are curvy 7-seaters, one European in flavor, one Japanese. Both make 250HP. CX-9 actually looks a little more "plain" on the exterior than I expected. The dash seems to be the one place where they really take different approaches from each other.

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=upcomingCX9

Wonder if folks who complained about an upper $30s Subaru will complain about the same with Mazda? It'll be interesting. Initial reaction seems to be totally different than Tribeca's, with most folks going gaga over the CX-9's exterior. Mazda certainly didn't try anything daring. Everything you read at first about the B9 Tribeca always talked about the grill first, not giving folks a chance to look further.

rsholland

The CX-9 has a 113" wheelbase, and the Tribeca has a 108" wheelbase. Can you image what an extra 5" could do to the Tribeca's 3rd-row seating...

Bob

rsholland

but I think MY 2007 is going to be a very long model year for Subaru. They are going to get hammered by the CX-7, CX-9, Rav4, RDX, MDX, and probably others too..

I can't wait til 2008 rolls around, when there will be an all-new Impreza, Forester, and facelifted Legacy, Outback and probably Tribeca too. There's a lot happening with Subaru for '08, and I bet they can't wait for it to arrive. I know I can't.

Bob

zman3

I usually really like Mazda styling but this one doesn't do much for me. I don't dislike it but I don't like it as much as the 3 and 6 styling, 3 especially.

nippononly

It's bland, certainly, but it pops the Mazda corporate face on a large car with more aplomb than some other brands. And between bland and bizarre, I would probably choose bland. Or maybe just go with a Pilot and beat them both! :-)

ateixeira

Jeff: good catch, I pointed out the same thing in another thread. The guage surrounds are identical. Probably a coincidence, but still.

Also, the rims also look like a knock off.

Having said that, it's a conservative version of its little brother, the CX7. I saw a photo of the two parked facing each other, and it really takes a while to figure out which one is which!

Mazda is more a-la-carte with options, but the starting prices will be a lot lower than the Tribeca. I bet they'll have a FWD version, for instance.

Still, the CX7 came in priced lower than I expected, so the CX9 will probably be a couple of grand higher than that, and still lower than a Tribeca.

I used the Mazda site to build a CX7 the way I'd want it and it came in right around $30 grand. Figure a CX9 will be $32-33 grand for the same thing. Pretty close to the Tribeca after current incentives, really.

Let's wait and see which powertrain turns out to be more stout. The 3.5l V6 is a Ford Duratec, and an unproven one. The 2.3l turbo is a Mazda power mill, the 2.3l is theirs and this one is a beefed up version of that engine, I believe made in Japan.

-juice

varmint

Every company has their building years. With a small product line, Subaru cannot have something new on the scene every year.

I think a more significant problem is the fact that so many new vehicles are crowding into Subaru's niche. And even creating micro-niches.

varmint

I think one of the reasons why Subaru had a hard time breaking the $30K barrier was because they had previously marketed themselves as a brand for the buyer who didn't want to spend that much. Not by necessity, but by choice. Quality cars without the quality price tag.

Mazda doesn't have that problem. They've never offered anything with that price tag. They sorta missed that boat when they opted not to launch the Amati brand. But Mazda has never poo-poo'd more expensive cars, either. Their cars were inexpensive, but they never made a ruckus about that as a being a core value of the brand.

I'm not saying it will be easy for Mazda to do it. I just think it's a slightly different story.

robr2

With a small product line, Subaru cannot have something new on the scene every year.

Vamint - I disagree. Bob's post makes it sound like all the new stuff will come out for 2008. IMHO, since Subaru is small, it has to have something new every year to keep the enthusiasm up. It also help spread the development costs.

Look at VW. They had nothing new other than the Toureg and Phaeton in NA for 4-5 years and their volume models were ignored. Customers went away. Now they are introducing 4 new models to North America in 2 years and even the Golf nee Rabbit V will be replaced in Europe in about 2 years.

varmint

I think you misunderstand me. There is a big difference between what Subaru can do and what they should do.

I agree with Bob and yourself. It would be good if they COULD have something new every. But they cannot. Not with a relatively small product line. As a result, Subaru must deal with these off-years. They have done so in the past. I'm certain they will do so again.

rsholland

Well, they do offer something new every year. Some years (like '07), the upgrades are small (new trim level STI Limited & spec.B 6-speed), but they're there.

It's just that '08 looks to be a BIG year for Subaru.

Bob

tinycadon

My brother just bought a Outback 2.5XT turbo, all I can say is WOW! Quiet, Fast, Smooth, totally blew me away. People who don't look into Subaru are completely missing one fine vehicle :shades:

jeffmc

The awards keep piling up. Eventually the public will notice.

Just announced: Impreza earned the highest rating possible with the IIHS "Top Safety Pick Gold" award. The Institute called Impreza the "gold standard" among small cars. Apparently this aired on Dateline NBC, so should be some really good PR.

http://vocuspr.vocus.com/vocuspr30/DotNet/Newsroom/ViewAttachment.aspx?SiteName=- SubaruNew&Entity=PRAsset&AttachmentType=F&EntityID=100468&AttachmentID=673405ce-- 3e85-400e-8738-2ef0cfe4b5d3

prosa

Just announced: Impreza earned the highest rating possible with the IIHS "Top Safety Pick Gold" award. The Institute called Impreza the "gold standard" among small cars. Apparently this aired on Dateline NBC, so should be some really good PR.

Subaru had better hurry up if it's going to use the Impreza's safety rating in advertising. The Civic also got a very good rating from the IIHS. Right now, there are no real deals available on Civics so the Impreza is quite price-competitive. That will change.

nippononly

at least you can get a moonroof in the Civic. And NAV. And side curtain airbags. But of course, you can't get AWD.....

The Impreza made the local evening news where I live, along with the Sedona minivan, when those safety test results came down. I wonder if there will be a little spike in sales. Dealers hardly stock any except for the WRXs, which continue as popular as ever, so probably not.