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Comments
Some dealer promotions crack me up!
-juice
I hope the new guy is more realistic and allows Subaru to stick to their core strengths here in the US.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
* ditch HAL, the climate control-freak
* spread VDC throughout the lineup
* rear disc brakes on all models, no more drums
* 5 speed autos for Forester/Impreza ASAP
* SportShift control for all automatics
* ban the use of the word "premium" completely
* more differentiation from SE to Limited models
* side curtains on the Forester and Impreza
That last one would accomodate both the folks like me that want a basic value model, plus dino001 with additional features.
Let's look at the SE vs. Limited issue, shall we?
On the Legacy, the SE has the moonroof and power seats, so now all the Limited models add is heated leather and a 6CD changer, basically. Plus those are restricted to auto trans only, so you actually give up a choice there. You get fog lights and heated mirrors and wiper de-icers, but those are minor things.
The whole All-weather pack used to cost $400, now that and leather and a 6CD player cost a whopping $2100. Not a very good value, and the Limited package still lacks things expected from vehicles that approach $30k nowadays.
To justify the big jump in price, it could have HIDs, maybe. A wheel that telescopes, power up/down buttons for the windows. Things an Audi shopper takes for granted.
And further distinguishing the Limited package would not cost them base model sales, those would still be value-priced.
This would also let Subaru play in both fields, mainstream and near-lux.
-juice
If we start seeing rebadged Swifts, I'll quit as Subaru Crew chief.
-juice
Bob
This engine has been on Ward's 10 Best list before as well.
Any why not? Semi-closed deck, oil squirters under the pistons, forged internals, sodium-filled exhaust valves, AVCS, and turbo all at this price point is impressive.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I know it varies by region, but I'm signed up to get those e-mails and there was one yesterday and it was $1000 or $1500 per the e-mail.
The highest incentive was on the Forester and it was $2000, and that's for the base X model only. The Limited, LL Bean, and XT only carry a $1000 incentive.
Or perhaps that's the dealer's total discount off MSRP?
-juice
2500 for an OB 2.5i
2000 for an OB Special Edition
2500 for an OB Limited Edition
1500 for the XT and 3.0
Forester rebates are the same as Juice reported.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
I'm in the Mid Atlantic, so I guess incentives are lower. At least we escape the monopoly that SoNE has in that region, and the higher fees that come along with it.
AN has an article today, I guess the new guy is starting to make forecasts again - 200k this year and 250k sales by 2010. I think the 200k number is optimistic, there is nothing major that's new this year.
-juice
As always, it seems to me Subaru will have an uphill battle in America just to keep the numbers constant.
I am sure that with the Forester redesign, the cheap little 'X' will disappear, and there goes (pretty much) your last sub-$20K Subaru. Not to mention, AWD RAVs start at $22K and are plenty popular, at least for now. And the perennially popular CRV is just about due for its full redesign.
Always an uphill battle. AWD doesn't stand out very much any more, WRC still isn't in America for people to get excited about Subaru, and boxer engines? A complete unknown among the buying public. Since most of the models are riding around on jacked-up, long travel suspension anyway, the advantages of the boxer are hard to sell anyway. They don't show up very well in the numbers that people shop when they're looking for a car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The next Forester might just be the most important vehicle in Subaru's history. They *have* to nail it. A luke warm reception will kill any and all hopes for that 250k number.
That's why I like the two-size strategy, a SWB and a LWB model.
-juice
If you mean the RAV4, what they did was move up in SIZE. It has a livable cabin and decent cargo space now.
As for the 250K prediction, I think you're on target. The Forester could boost them up there, or send them back below 200K. The turbo model certainly gave the vehicle a significant push in the eyes of the public. Not sure if that will work again. The V6 RAV4 and CX-7 make for compelling alternatives. I think they need something else to make it stand-out.
They successfully bumped the average transaction price up about $4 grand, where costs are higher, sure, but margins are, too.
-juice
Compare a moderately equipped version of the old model with a similar version of the new one and the prices are within $1K.
The available content is not that much different ('cept the V6 and 3rd row). It's the new size that is selling it.
Transactions prices are a whole lot higher, though. It surprises me a bit that people talk about having spent $28k and noone even blinks now.
-juice
The RAV4 runs on regular, has more power, has a 5-speed auto (V6), is roomier, and can tow more (V6). The Forester turbo can be had with a 5-speed manual, and is likely more fun/rewarding to drive.
I just went to FitzMall and found an XT auto MSRP @ $29,780, an XT manual MSRP @ $28,938. I also found a RAV4 V6 (auto) MSRP @ $28,489.
Bob
Dealers never got those high MSRP prices because the old RAV4 was over-shadowed by the then-new Escape/Tribute and the CR-V when it debuted a year later.
This time, the RAV is far more competitive and dealers are getting asking prices.
Anyway, I guess there is a real-world price hike. But I don't think it has much to do with higher levels of content or more upscale attributes. It is simply a more mainstream vehicle this time around.
Toyota's V6 is their ace up their sleeve, IMO. Plenty of power and decent fuel economy on regular fuel. That's why demand is high. The lack of a manual trans doesn't matter to most buyers, even though we care.
-juice
Also, IIRC, Fitz only had 2 FXTs, and they had a bunch of RAV4 V6s, so they most likely would have even lower prices on the RAVs, I would think.
Bob
I bet Toyota sells a higher % of V6s compared to Subaru selling turbos.
-juice
4-wheel drive (4WD) models only. Automatically disengages at speeds above 25 mph.
From Toyota's website.
For me it's a tough call, if I wanted something more fun to drive it would be the Forester. For my family duties, though, the extra room makes the RAV4 more practical. To be honest, though, I think I'd go whole-hog and just get a Sienna minivan with AWD, because it's a better system than their SUV has, ironically.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A few RAV4 owners have complained about torque steer, that's something you would hope an AWD system would overcome.
I felt some torque steer test driving an '02 CR-V. It was quick because it was geared short, so it would chirp the tires in 2nd gear, but you'd feel a nice tug at the steering wheel when doing so. VTM-4 could probably act quickly enough to send power to the rear axle (they're not sporty enough that I could try), but RT4WD could not.
The Forester XT is blazingly fast yet has no torque steer at all. All equal length half shafts plus each tire is only asked to do 25% of the work, no problem. It's a very well balanced powertrain.
Now, make it just a tad bigger, Subaru, maybe two wheelbase lengths, so you can keep folks like lark6, Frank, and Loosh happy with a sporty one, yet also keep me in the fold, with 2 kids, a nanny, and a dog.
-juice
Bob
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There's a lot of talk in other threads about a serious shift in consumer buying habits as well as their way of thinking with regard to the fuel economy of their next car. I wonder if Subaru is worried that it doesn't have a single model that even breaks the not-terribly-impressive 30 mpg highway mark...
When is that hybrid coming?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree - their mileage is not very impressive. Probably single weakest spot of the brand, more even than the "option/packaging/pricing" issues we all complain about all the time. As I understand, boxer is partially to blame, as reportedly not so efficient.
Hybrid? I will believe when I see it. Probably $35K+ MSRP for Legacy-sized turbocharged sedan/wagon, if coming at all.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
The hybrid isn't dead is it? it is still coming, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
The Forester gets 23/28 with the automatic that 93% of americans prefer, and that's class-best tied with the RAV4 among AWD models.
Well, until the Saturn Vue Redline arrives. Holy cow, I was SHOCKED that they priced that under $23k! Can you believe it? Vues have the worst steering I've ever sampled, and probably the spongiest seats, too, but reverse sticker shock and high MPG is going to wake that model up from the dead.
There are two ways to look at Subaru's position, either AWD is a disadvantage because FWD competition is more efficient, or its an advantage, as people downsize from SUVs and want to keep at least the AWD and wagon shape.
The catch? The manufacturers of those SUVs they are giving up now mostly offer AWD in their cars. So earning conquest sales will be tougher. So the problem with be growth.
I remember almost gagging when I saw a 13/17 rating on the Monroney of an Armada. :surprise:
upmarket blah blah
Remember, that was Takenaka's theme, Premium. He's out. I'm not saying they've changed directions, but that phrase is gone, thankfully.
-juice
Yeah, but unfortunately it is judged against 4-cyl Accord or Camry.
One thing - we shall see how EPA ratings will change in '08 - I can see a lot of perceptions being shaken or even put upside down. My prediction is Subaru turbo models will suffer a lot, non-turbos may actually gain against the competition (to be exact - the competition is likely to lose more than Subaru). I may be totally wrong, though...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Vues actually have been strong sellers for the past several months, as measured by average time on dealer lots. They've sometimes been in the top 10.
$22,995, though, wow. Too bad I didn't like it much.
Even with the Honda V6, it was like a great powertrain looking for a better vehicle around it.
-juice
The first Subaru hybrid is to be the Legacy, I hope? And Outback too? The new Camry hybrid is about $25K and offers 187 hp with a 39 combined EPA rating. I would like to see Outback get well into the 30s, with a price not much more than the Camry hybrid. Maybe price it the same as the Outback turbo - you can pick more power than the 2.5i, OR more fuel economy (and a bit more power), take your pick, same price. Ditto the Legacy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Don't forget that the new low sulphur diesel will be mandated later this year. Upcoming diesels are designed to run on that and are much cleaner.