Good, Takenaka was putting way too much pressure on SoA. His goals were unrealistic and he didn't really do much with the feedback he was getting from what is their biggest market.
I hope the new guy is more realistic and allows Subaru to stick to their core strengths here in the US.
I hope he gets rid of the whole upmarket thing and stays bread and butter. I'm just a little worried by the response he gave in regard to engineering being a priority. It's close to saying it's not that important. Core engineering + Core marketing groups *should* = Long term success. Eric
I don't think they will - too deep into Tribeca, Spec-B, STI Ltd., etc. If anything, it will slowly progress upwards. I'm actually not so against it for myself, since my "taste" and abilities move upwards, too. My problem was they declared upmarket move solely on powertrain design claims with no "basic" upmarket feature conent. HID are still missing, even as an option, telescopic steering wheel is not upmarket anymore, but it's expected in premium market, satelite radio/aux wiring, are slowly making into lineup, etc. I think any vehicle with sticker above $28K with those things missing as standard is a misfire. Then there is a lone list of factory installed comfort/luxury/personalization options that are also missing. I hope new '08 Impreza/Forester and Legacy/Outback refreshments will eventually bring that stuff on - otherwise all that upscale talk is a smoke screen by desperate people who try to prevent inevitable Saabization of their brand.
Good, here are some suggestions along those lines:
* ditch HAL, the climate control-freak * spread VDC throughout the lineup * rear disc brakes on all models, no more drums * 5 speed autos for Forester/Impreza ASAP * SportShift control for all automatics * ban the use of the word "premium" completely * more differentiation from SE to Limited models * side curtains on the Forester and Impreza
That last one would accomodate both the folks like me that want a basic value model, plus dino001 with additional features.
Let's look at the SE vs. Limited issue, shall we?
On the Legacy, the SE has the moonroof and power seats, so now all the Limited models add is heated leather and a 6CD changer, basically. Plus those are restricted to auto trans only, so you actually give up a choice there. You get fog lights and heated mirrors and wiper de-icers, but those are minor things.
The whole All-weather pack used to cost $400, now that and leather and a 6CD player cost a whopping $2100. Not a very good value, and the Limited package still lacks things expected from vehicles that approach $30k nowadays.
To justify the big jump in price, it could have HIDs, maybe. A wheel that telescopes, power up/down buttons for the windows. Things an Audi shopper takes for granted.
And further distinguishing the Limited package would not cost them base model sales, those would still be value-priced.
This would also let Subaru play in both fields, mainstream and near-lux.
I don't have a problem with Subaru taking on a marketing person as their CEO. Their engineering has always been very solid for the types of vehicles they build. While the cars might not meet the needs of the mass public as well as some others, they are (pound-for-pound) very well-engineered cars. And the core values of the company seem to be very firmly entrenched. Just ask GM. I doubt this guy could mess up their cars even if he tried.
Wow, and it beat some real solid powerplants, too, BMW's in-line six and Honda's new diesel. Plus Mazda's turbo Direct-injection engine, which is a first.
This engine has been on Ward's 10 Best list before as well.
Any why not? Semi-closed deck, oil squirters under the pistons, forged internals, sodium-filled exhaust valves, AVCS, and turbo all at this price point is impressive.
This is a European award, and the Legacy/Outback 2.5 turbo is not sold there, whereas the Impreza and Forester 2.5 turbos are. I believe they still get the 2.0 Legacy turbo, however.
I guess cash back on the Outback has gone up to $3000, as that is what they are advertising now at that dealer. I guess when they are giving back 15% of the price of the car before you even begin negotiating the price, they don't need to offer barbecue as an incentive any more! :-P
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I know it varies by region, but I'm signed up to get those e-mails and there was one yesterday and it was $1000 or $1500 per the e-mail.
The highest incentive was on the Forester and it was $2000, and that's for the base X model only. The Limited, LL Bean, and XT only carry a $1000 incentive.
Or perhaps that's the dealer's total discount off MSRP?
Here in the NW, cash back for Legacy/Outback starts at $1500 and tops out at $2000. I think the '07s will have to have some serious rebates once folks see how sharp the '08s look! If you haven't checked it out, look in the Subaru Crew Future Models II forum. It's the '07 Legacy to be launched soon in Japan, which won't be introduced in the US until model year '08.
It's incredible what a lack of snow does for demand and pricing on a Subaru...
I'm in the Mid Atlantic, so I guess incentives are lower. At least we escape the monopoly that SoNE has in that region, and the higher fees that come along with it.
AN has an article today, I guess the new guy is starting to make forecasts again - 200k this year and 250k sales by 2010. I think the 200k number is optimistic, there is nothing major that's new this year.
they might just squeak their way to, if not this year then next or the year after (once the new Forester and Impreza are around), but 250K four years from now??? The last 25 years say differently. That guy might have been on something. Really.
As always, it seems to me Subaru will have an uphill battle in America just to keep the numbers constant.
I am sure that with the Forester redesign, the cheap little 'X' will disappear, and there goes (pretty much) your last sub-$20K Subaru. Not to mention, AWD RAVs start at $22K and are plenty popular, at least for now. And the perennially popular CRV is just about due for its full redesign.
Always an uphill battle. AWD doesn't stand out very much any more, WRC still isn't in America for people to get excited about Subaru, and boxer engines? A complete unknown among the buying public. Since most of the models are riding around on jacked-up, long travel suspension anyway, the advantages of the boxer are hard to sell anyway. They don't show up very well in the numbers that people shop when they're looking for a car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, Toyota proved that if you do it right, you can move up in price/content and still gain in sales.
The next Forester might just be the most important vehicle in Subaru's history. They *have* to nail it. A luke warm reception will kill any and all hopes for that 250k number.
That's why I like the two-size strategy, a SWB and a LWB model.
"Well, Toyota proved that if you do it right, you can move up in price/content and still gain in sales."
If you mean the RAV4, what they did was move up in SIZE. It has a livable cabin and decent cargo space now.
As for the 250K prediction, I think you're on target. The Forester could boost them up there, or send them back below 200K. The turbo model certainly gave the vehicle a significant push in the eyes of the public. Not sure if that will work again. The V6 RAV4 and CX-7 make for compelling alternatives. I think they need something else to make it stand-out.
Well, yes, it's newness is giving them a boost. Essentially, the old version was selling at invoice and the new model is going for MSRP. But you could spec out an old RAV4 with all the safety gear, auto tranny, AWD, etc. and it would sticker north of 29K.
Compare a moderately equipped version of the old model with a similar version of the new one and the prices are within $1K.
The available content is not that much different ('cept the V6 and 3rd row). It's the new size that is selling it.
The Forester turbo and RAV4 V6 are priced close to one another.
The RAV4 runs on regular, has more power, has a 5-speed auto (V6), is roomier, and can tow more (V6). The Forester turbo can be had with a 5-speed manual, and is likely more fun/rewarding to drive.
I just went to FitzMall and found an XT auto MSRP @ $29,780, an XT manual MSRP @ $28,938. I also found a RAV4 V6 (auto) MSRP @ $28,489.
Dealers never got those high MSRP prices because the old RAV4 was over-shadowed by the then-new Escape/Tribute and the CR-V when it debuted a year later.
This time, the RAV is far more competitive and dealers are getting asking prices.
Anyway, I guess there is a real-world price hike. But I don't think it has much to do with higher levels of content or more upscale attributes. It is simply a more mainstream vehicle this time around.
You're looking at MSRP, though, while I tend to look at street prices.
Toyota's V6 is their ace up their sleeve, IMO. Plenty of power and decent fuel economy on regular fuel. That's why demand is high. The lack of a manual trans doesn't matter to most buyers, even though we care.
The Forester starts lower, but they top off near the same price. Of course the Forester XT comes loaded up, while the RAV4 may or may not have all those options, so it's harder to tell, you'd have to look at individual cars.
I bet Toyota sells a higher % of V6s compared to Subaru selling turbos.
True, but they could counter by saying Subaru doesn't offer stability control.
For me it's a tough call, if I wanted something more fun to drive it would be the Forester. For my family duties, though, the extra room makes the RAV4 more practical. To be honest, though, I think I'd go whole-hog and just get a Sienna minivan with AWD, because it's a better system than their SUV has, ironically.
RAV 90/10 under normal operation, or 100/0? I thought it was 90/10, like CRV. I liked the center VC of the last gen though - the same system Soob still uses in its manual-equipped cars. It provides a 50/50 split at all times, just the way I like it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
When they say 90/10, it's probably just the extra drag of whatever drivetrain components remain attached. But none of that power it getting to the road, so it's pure FWD in most situations.
A few RAV4 owners have complained about torque steer, that's something you would hope an AWD system would overcome.
I felt some torque steer test driving an '02 CR-V. It was quick because it was geared short, so it would chirp the tires in 2nd gear, but you'd feel a nice tug at the steering wheel when doing so. VTM-4 could probably act quickly enough to send power to the rear axle (they're not sporty enough that I could try), but RT4WD could not.
The Forester XT is blazingly fast yet has no torque steer at all. All equal length half shafts plus each tire is only asked to do 25% of the work, no problem. It's a very well balanced powertrain.
Now, make it just a tad bigger, Subaru, maybe two wheelbase lengths, so you can keep folks like lark6, Frank, and Loosh happy with a sporty one, yet also keep me in the fold, with 2 kids, a nanny, and a dog.
I hate those kinds of AWD systems - totally reactive, you never have the AWD in the second when you really need it.
There's a lot of talk in other threads about a serious shift in consumer buying habits as well as their way of thinking with regard to the fuel economy of their next car. I wonder if Subaru is worried that it doesn't have a single model that even breaks the not-terribly-impressive 30 mpg highway mark...
When is that hybrid coming?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, the whole upmarket blah blah is probably an attempt to break bree from those cocerns as those customers are less sensitive to gas mileage. When comparing to any of those guys, Subaru is pretty much in the middle of the pack, especially their AWD versions. The only significantly better car in that group I could think of are those VW/Audi with 2.0T - they run on premium as Subaru turbos/H6, get reasonable power and good transmissions.
I agree - their mileage is not very impressive. Probably single weakest spot of the brand, more even than the "option/packaging/pricing" issues we all complain about all the time. As I understand, boxer is partially to blame, as reportedly not so efficient.
Hybrid? I will believe when I see it. Probably $35K+ MSRP for Legacy-sized turbocharged sedan/wagon, if coming at all.
I won't be able to get the diesel here in California! Plus three of the states that follow California emission standards are in the northeast. Can Subaru afford to stake its fuel economy on diesel?
The hybrid isn't dead is it? it is still coming, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Legacy 2.5i gets an EPA 23/30 with an auto transmission. Not bad for a big 4 cylinder with permanent AWD.
The Forester gets 23/28 with the automatic that 93% of americans prefer, and that's class-best tied with the RAV4 among AWD models.
Well, until the Saturn Vue Redline arrives. Holy cow, I was SHOCKED that they priced that under $23k! Can you believe it? Vues have the worst steering I've ever sampled, and probably the spongiest seats, too, but reverse sticker shock and high MPG is going to wake that model up from the dead.
There are two ways to look at Subaru's position, either AWD is a disadvantage because FWD competition is more efficient, or its an advantage, as people downsize from SUVs and want to keep at least the AWD and wagon shape.
The catch? The manufacturers of those SUVs they are giving up now mostly offer AWD in their cars. So earning conquest sales will be tougher. So the problem with be growth.
I remember almost gagging when I saw a 13/17 rating on the Monroney of an Armada. :surprise:
upmarket blah blah
Remember, that was Takenaka's theme, Premium. He's out. I'm not saying they've changed directions, but that phrase is gone, thankfully.
The Legacy 2.5i gets an EPA 23/30 with an auto transmission. Not bad for a big 4 cylinder with permanent AWD
Yeah, but unfortunately it is judged against 4-cyl Accord or Camry.
One thing - we shall see how EPA ratings will change in '08 - I can see a lot of perceptions being shaken or even put upside down. My prediction is Subaru turbo models will suffer a lot, non-turbos may actually gain against the competition (to be exact - the competition is likely to lose more than Subaru). I may be totally wrong, though...
Well, until the Saturn Vue Redline arrives. Holy cow, I was SHOCKED that they priced that under $23k! Can you believe it? Vues have the worst steering I've ever sampled, and probably the spongiest seats, too, but reverse sticker shock and high MPG is going to wake that model up from the dead.
Vues actually have been strong sellers for the past several months, as measured by average time on dealer lots. They've sometimes been in the top 10.
Pre-hybrid, I'm sure that had something to do with the supply side. Maybe they cut production when they ramped up Pontiac Torrent production? Not sure.
$22,995, though, wow. Too bad I didn't like it much.
Even with the Honda V6, it was like a great powertrain looking for a better vehicle around it.
at the Highlander hybrid last night, and whoa! Sticker shock! Are they serious about asking $40 grand for that thing? No way, and no wonder they don't sell.
The first Subaru hybrid is to be the Legacy, I hope? And Outback too? The new Camry hybrid is about $25K and offers 187 hp with a 39 combined EPA rating. I would like to see Outback get well into the 30s, with a price not much more than the Camry hybrid. Maybe price it the same as the Outback turbo - you can pick more power than the 2.5i, OR more fuel economy (and a bit more power), take your pick, same price. Ditto the Legacy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I won't be able to get the diesel here in California! Plus three of the states that follow California emission standards are in the northeast. Can Subaru afford to stake its fuel economy on diesel?
Don't forget that the new low sulphur diesel will be mandated later this year. Upcoming diesels are designed to run on that and are much cleaner.
Comments
Some dealer promotions crack me up!
-juice
I hope the new guy is more realistic and allows Subaru to stick to their core strengths here in the US.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
* ditch HAL, the climate control-freak
* spread VDC throughout the lineup
* rear disc brakes on all models, no more drums
* 5 speed autos for Forester/Impreza ASAP
* SportShift control for all automatics
* ban the use of the word "premium" completely
* more differentiation from SE to Limited models
* side curtains on the Forester and Impreza
That last one would accomodate both the folks like me that want a basic value model, plus dino001 with additional features.
Let's look at the SE vs. Limited issue, shall we?
On the Legacy, the SE has the moonroof and power seats, so now all the Limited models add is heated leather and a 6CD changer, basically. Plus those are restricted to auto trans only, so you actually give up a choice there. You get fog lights and heated mirrors and wiper de-icers, but those are minor things.
The whole All-weather pack used to cost $400, now that and leather and a 6CD player cost a whopping $2100. Not a very good value, and the Limited package still lacks things expected from vehicles that approach $30k nowadays.
To justify the big jump in price, it could have HIDs, maybe. A wheel that telescopes, power up/down buttons for the windows. Things an Audi shopper takes for granted.
And further distinguishing the Limited package would not cost them base model sales, those would still be value-priced.
This would also let Subaru play in both fields, mainstream and near-lux.
-juice
If we start seeing rebadged Swifts, I'll quit as Subaru Crew chief.
-juice
Bob
This engine has been on Ward's 10 Best list before as well.
Any why not? Semi-closed deck, oil squirters under the pistons, forged internals, sodium-filled exhaust valves, AVCS, and turbo all at this price point is impressive.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I know it varies by region, but I'm signed up to get those e-mails and there was one yesterday and it was $1000 or $1500 per the e-mail.
The highest incentive was on the Forester and it was $2000, and that's for the base X model only. The Limited, LL Bean, and XT only carry a $1000 incentive.
Or perhaps that's the dealer's total discount off MSRP?
-juice
2500 for an OB 2.5i
2000 for an OB Special Edition
2500 for an OB Limited Edition
1500 for the XT and 3.0
Forester rebates are the same as Juice reported.
2024 Jeep Grand Cherokee L Limited Velvet Red over Wicker Beige
2024 Audi Q5 Premium Plus Daytona Gray over Beige
2017 BMW X1 Jet Black over Mocha
I'm in the Mid Atlantic, so I guess incentives are lower. At least we escape the monopoly that SoNE has in that region, and the higher fees that come along with it.
AN has an article today, I guess the new guy is starting to make forecasts again - 200k this year and 250k sales by 2010. I think the 200k number is optimistic, there is nothing major that's new this year.
-juice
As always, it seems to me Subaru will have an uphill battle in America just to keep the numbers constant.
I am sure that with the Forester redesign, the cheap little 'X' will disappear, and there goes (pretty much) your last sub-$20K Subaru. Not to mention, AWD RAVs start at $22K and are plenty popular, at least for now. And the perennially popular CRV is just about due for its full redesign.
Always an uphill battle. AWD doesn't stand out very much any more, WRC still isn't in America for people to get excited about Subaru, and boxer engines? A complete unknown among the buying public. Since most of the models are riding around on jacked-up, long travel suspension anyway, the advantages of the boxer are hard to sell anyway. They don't show up very well in the numbers that people shop when they're looking for a car.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The next Forester might just be the most important vehicle in Subaru's history. They *have* to nail it. A luke warm reception will kill any and all hopes for that 250k number.
That's why I like the two-size strategy, a SWB and a LWB model.
-juice
If you mean the RAV4, what they did was move up in SIZE. It has a livable cabin and decent cargo space now.
As for the 250K prediction, I think you're on target. The Forester could boost them up there, or send them back below 200K. The turbo model certainly gave the vehicle a significant push in the eyes of the public. Not sure if that will work again. The V6 RAV4 and CX-7 make for compelling alternatives. I think they need something else to make it stand-out.
They successfully bumped the average transaction price up about $4 grand, where costs are higher, sure, but margins are, too.
-juice
Compare a moderately equipped version of the old model with a similar version of the new one and the prices are within $1K.
The available content is not that much different ('cept the V6 and 3rd row). It's the new size that is selling it.
Transactions prices are a whole lot higher, though. It surprises me a bit that people talk about having spent $28k and noone even blinks now.
-juice
The RAV4 runs on regular, has more power, has a 5-speed auto (V6), is roomier, and can tow more (V6). The Forester turbo can be had with a 5-speed manual, and is likely more fun/rewarding to drive.
I just went to FitzMall and found an XT auto MSRP @ $29,780, an XT manual MSRP @ $28,938. I also found a RAV4 V6 (auto) MSRP @ $28,489.
Bob
Dealers never got those high MSRP prices because the old RAV4 was over-shadowed by the then-new Escape/Tribute and the CR-V when it debuted a year later.
This time, the RAV is far more competitive and dealers are getting asking prices.
Anyway, I guess there is a real-world price hike. But I don't think it has much to do with higher levels of content or more upscale attributes. It is simply a more mainstream vehicle this time around.
Toyota's V6 is their ace up their sleeve, IMO. Plenty of power and decent fuel economy on regular fuel. That's why demand is high. The lack of a manual trans doesn't matter to most buyers, even though we care.
-juice
Also, IIRC, Fitz only had 2 FXTs, and they had a bunch of RAV4 V6s, so they most likely would have even lower prices on the RAVs, I would think.
Bob
I bet Toyota sells a higher % of V6s compared to Subaru selling turbos.
-juice
4-wheel drive (4WD) models only. Automatically disengages at speeds above 25 mph.
From Toyota's website.
For me it's a tough call, if I wanted something more fun to drive it would be the Forester. For my family duties, though, the extra room makes the RAV4 more practical. To be honest, though, I think I'd go whole-hog and just get a Sienna minivan with AWD, because it's a better system than their SUV has, ironically.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A few RAV4 owners have complained about torque steer, that's something you would hope an AWD system would overcome.
I felt some torque steer test driving an '02 CR-V. It was quick because it was geared short, so it would chirp the tires in 2nd gear, but you'd feel a nice tug at the steering wheel when doing so. VTM-4 could probably act quickly enough to send power to the rear axle (they're not sporty enough that I could try), but RT4WD could not.
The Forester XT is blazingly fast yet has no torque steer at all. All equal length half shafts plus each tire is only asked to do 25% of the work, no problem. It's a very well balanced powertrain.
Now, make it just a tad bigger, Subaru, maybe two wheelbase lengths, so you can keep folks like lark6, Frank, and Loosh happy with a sporty one, yet also keep me in the fold, with 2 kids, a nanny, and a dog.
-juice
Bob
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There's a lot of talk in other threads about a serious shift in consumer buying habits as well as their way of thinking with regard to the fuel economy of their next car. I wonder if Subaru is worried that it doesn't have a single model that even breaks the not-terribly-impressive 30 mpg highway mark...
When is that hybrid coming?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree - their mileage is not very impressive. Probably single weakest spot of the brand, more even than the "option/packaging/pricing" issues we all complain about all the time. As I understand, boxer is partially to blame, as reportedly not so efficient.
Hybrid? I will believe when I see it. Probably $35K+ MSRP for Legacy-sized turbocharged sedan/wagon, if coming at all.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
The hybrid isn't dead is it? it is still coming, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Bob
The Forester gets 23/28 with the automatic that 93% of americans prefer, and that's class-best tied with the RAV4 among AWD models.
Well, until the Saturn Vue Redline arrives. Holy cow, I was SHOCKED that they priced that under $23k! Can you believe it? Vues have the worst steering I've ever sampled, and probably the spongiest seats, too, but reverse sticker shock and high MPG is going to wake that model up from the dead.
There are two ways to look at Subaru's position, either AWD is a disadvantage because FWD competition is more efficient, or its an advantage, as people downsize from SUVs and want to keep at least the AWD and wagon shape.
The catch? The manufacturers of those SUVs they are giving up now mostly offer AWD in their cars. So earning conquest sales will be tougher. So the problem with be growth.
I remember almost gagging when I saw a 13/17 rating on the Monroney of an Armada. :surprise:
upmarket blah blah
Remember, that was Takenaka's theme, Premium. He's out. I'm not saying they've changed directions, but that phrase is gone, thankfully.
-juice
Yeah, but unfortunately it is judged against 4-cyl Accord or Camry.
One thing - we shall see how EPA ratings will change in '08 - I can see a lot of perceptions being shaken or even put upside down. My prediction is Subaru turbo models will suffer a lot, non-turbos may actually gain against the competition (to be exact - the competition is likely to lose more than Subaru). I may be totally wrong, though...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Vues actually have been strong sellers for the past several months, as measured by average time on dealer lots. They've sometimes been in the top 10.
$22,995, though, wow. Too bad I didn't like it much.
Even with the Honda V6, it was like a great powertrain looking for a better vehicle around it.
-juice
The first Subaru hybrid is to be the Legacy, I hope? And Outback too? The new Camry hybrid is about $25K and offers 187 hp with a 39 combined EPA rating. I would like to see Outback get well into the 30s, with a price not much more than the Camry hybrid. Maybe price it the same as the Outback turbo - you can pick more power than the 2.5i, OR more fuel economy (and a bit more power), take your pick, same price. Ditto the Legacy.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Don't forget that the new low sulphur diesel will be mandated later this year. Upcoming diesels are designed to run on that and are much cleaner.