I would add that the "premium-schmemium" push was somewhat legitimate, but their targets were totally misplaced. Instead of going after Volvo/Saab/Acura customers (who are by their nature somewhat niche and value oriented) they tried to compare themselves to BMW or even Porsche :sick: With the former they could have established some bridge by saying "you trade plush for speed and handling", with latter there was no chance, whatsoever, as the gap was simply too big.
I guess that's why some cars are quieter than others, makes sense. Seems a Forester can be louder than a WRX. I won't say it's the nicest sound, but as long as there's a reason for it.
VW is also working hard on figuring out a way to make the Golf VI cheaper to build, and may even bring it to market before their usual cycle.
Tribeca sold 15k units the first year, the target was 17k. For this year the target was 35k but they'll miss that, too.
For whatever reason the Impreza is the hot model this year, so ironically I think they'll have a record year anyway, even though they stopped Baja production and sell 1 less model then they did last year.
And the Impreza is in its last year of production! Plus it has the airplane fuselage grille, albeit a smaller one. I say the 2.5T engine is the main reason.
I'm not even all about quiet...just a nice smooth sound, which I think some of these cars lack. I have to wonder if it turns non-Subaru fans off the cars. Will this engine ever be encapsulated?
11,700 as of the end of July? Pathetic. This model should have been introduced in "Brighton" form, with perhaps one higher-end trim, and a base price of $28K and not a penny more. Perhaps they could have offered the turbo 4 in addition to the H-6? I understand why they needed a larger SUV, but with the "premium plan" in mind, the design team took the wrong approach. Plus, wasn't the 35K annual sales goal revised downwards a couple of times from the original figure?
And after more than ten years of revival, what STILL generates their highest volume of sales? The base 4-cyl Outback, that's what. No wonder they popped a Brighton into that line-up. $26Kish (including destination) was getting a bit high for the base price of their most "voluminous" model and trim. And gas prices will undoubtedly hurt their turbo and H-6 sales just as much as they are hurting other manufacturers' models with not-so-great fuel economy.
It is encouraging that they have other volume products now (the WRX and the various Forester trims, as well as the Outback turbo) in addition to the 4-cyl Outback, as they can (and should) milk them more now that they got that "premium" thing out of their heads.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I kind of like the fact that you can distinguish the engine sound. You can't tell a Civic from a Corolla or even a Sentra driving by, but you'll know it when you hear an Impreza.
Didn't realize its sales were that bad, guess I just haven't looked lately.
They shuffled options on the '07 models and the base model dropped a bit of content (moonroof) and got a much lower price, though the rebates went away so they're not any cheaper.
I think they're underrated and may look at a lightly used '06 model next year.
if the model doesn't die completely you can bet there will be further rebates again this time next year, might be better just to take advantage of that and buy a new '07.
I have no doubt the 'Beca is a fine model, it is just running head-on into that age-old adage: "more than $30K? For a SUBARU??".
Pilot and Highlander are both coming up on their redos, which will come with a commensurate increase in price and termination of rebates by those companies, so maybe then the Tribeca will stand a better chance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I just saw Pilot has a $3000 dealer incentive, wow. Someone said they paid $21.8k for a FWD LX model, though I wonder...maybe that included a trade.
A Tribeca isn't even close to that in price. Even the wind-damaged ones they had to sell as used cars were $25k or more.
I found an '06 with 6k miles (hardly broken in) for $28k with 3 rows, LTD package, and GPS NAV. I wasn't ready yet, but I may have bought it if I was.
I would like the backup camera on the 07 models, but I don't like the rest of the SE package, especially that chrome grille. Maybe I'll wait and get one, then paint the grille matte black.
if the model doesn't die completely you can bet there will be further rebates again this time next year, might be better just to take advantage of that and buy a new '07.
This time next year the "re-skinned" 2008 B9 Tribeca will be for sale. The model surely won't die 'til they give the new look a year or two to succeed or fail... and by then it'll be nearly time for a complete model change. I'd imagine the '07's rebates will be quite high once the '08s are out. It'll be the perfect time to buy... current style will be heavily discounted or new style may be a looker.
I bet they go with a much more conservative look, boring even.
When risks are taken with design and it fails, the knee-jerk reaction is to play it safe with the follow-up.
It's a shame, though. I think a simple black insert for the grille would make it look good, I just don't like all that chrome.
There are a few extremely vocal opponents of the design, but I have a brochure and every time I show people here at work, they find it stylish and even avant garde.
Maybe it's good, bring prices down so I can buy one cheap! And I won't see myself coming and going, blend in with the herd.
Guess it's now official - Subaru.com no longer has this dealership on the list of local dealers. It came as no surprise, as yesterday I got a look at what was on the lot and they had no new Subarus (there were still quite a few used ones, however). But there's good news. A Volkswagen dealership a few miles away has picked up the local Subaru franchise. It happens to be the same dealership where I bought a used Jetta for my stepdaughter about a year ago. They were very nice to deal with, more so than the (now former) Subaru dealership, and therefore I'm happy I'll be using them for service.
"I have no doubt the 'Beca is a fine model, it is just running head-on into that age-old adage: "more than $30K? For a SUBARU??"."
Absolutely. I have no problem thinking Subaru can produce a premium branded vehicle. The Tribeca proves it. They have the engine, they have the drivetrain, they have the cachet. However, they need a more upscale market without losing their existing market.
Guaranteed Trade Program - they put a ridiculously high number - about 2 grand above what my car is worth as a trade. Great offer, but one can quickly imagine the trouble they may get themselves into if too many people actually use it. Sales will go up, indeed, but profitability - ouch.
I see, so it looks someone made an accounting error for Imprezas. Mine was 2K more because they used "excellent" condition as a comparison and nobody would get excellent condition from a dealer, especially on 4 year old car.
thread still on the board? I thought it had finally fallen off.
Dealers in my area are now running screamer ads for the new Outback Basic, manual or automatic, all in stock, $19,xxx (I forget the exact figure, I think it is a couple hundred dollars under $20K). I call this a rip-off - if they can sell the automatics for $19,8, then they should be able to sell the manuals for $19,0!! :-P
This model has two years to run, doesn't it? :-/
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Screamer ads around here are under 19k. Usually weekend ad at $18,888 for the base manual... I think I saw one for $18.5k.
I kinda like the basic, although the steel wheels look a bid odd. I guess I don't mind the decontenting. I've seen a number running around, so they must serve a purpose, cheap.
it's funny to me that this thread hasn't quite managed to die yet. I am always interested to see what new posters say.
So when you posted this sales news, which represents a 4000-unit increase from last year, with the Outback three years from its next redesign and the new Forester and Impreza still a year out, I decided to go back and read some of our long-ago posts.
It seems when we started out, Subaru was just coming off the second failed year of a 5-year turnaround plan. At that time, after two revisions downward, and with the Tribeca yet to be introduced, they set their 2005 sales goal at 201K units. They failed to hit this twice-lowered goal, as they have again failed to do this year, alhough they came darn close this time.
In the meantime, the Baja has folded, the Tribeca has been the most incentivized model ever at Subaru, and they have been compelled to introduce an Outback Basic to combat the price creep of the '06 Outback, which was close to $25 grand with a 4-cylinder engine and a stick.
They have "solved" their most immediate problem, the rivers of red ink flowing out of the Indiana plant, by selling part of the production capacity there to Toyota. By next year, they will be building as many Camrys as Legacys at SIA, which is an odd turn of events (but not surprising, given that half the plant previously belonged to Isuzu, proud purveyor of 8600 vehicles in the U.S. this year! :-P).
I continue to wonder what their future holds. I like 'em, and will be tempted to buy one again in the future, I am sure, but they will have to get their fuel economy up before I pull the trigger.
It's funny, just last weekend I heard the Magliozzi brothers on Car Talk mention Subaru when they said "it's southern California, what the heck do you want with an AWD car down there??". I think their comment applies to most areas in the sun belt, which is a lot of people, and makes me think Subaru will probably stay a niche and highly regionalized brand. So my original question remains - can they build a successful business model on niche sales (by auto industry standards) to people in snow belt states and the Pacific Northwest?
I am rooting for them. Maybe when the '08/09 Impreza line comes out, it will catch my fancy more than the current model does, and I will be able to back up my rooting with a purchase...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Is it really that bad though? I see it as mostly good news. Sure, the Tribeca hasn't done as well as they might have hoped, and maybe the sales goals were lowered, but getting very close to the 201k a year late isn't that bad, is it?
Especially considering that it was a year where the Legacy/Outback models were a year older awaiting a refresh, and a sales decline there could have really hurt Subaru. The decline was moderate. The Impreza sales were nice with the refresh.
I agree that the core Subaru buyer will be in certain regions, but I see so many Subarus in the Pacific Northwest that I think their identity is strong and their buyers loyal. A heavily revised Tribeca may really help them.
I posted this because, if I recall correctly, one of Subaru's goals was to reach 200K in sales—and they did it. So, using the 1/2 glass analogy, I see it as being 1/2 full, not 1/2 empty.
Well, to be perfectly honest, I don't KNOW if it's that bad. If they maintain steady sales at around 200K per year (which they seem to be able to do), and they plan for that many sales in their production, then I guess it's OK. The two biggest problems they had when this thread was established were (1) GM's intrusion in their affairs - sales at these low levels threatened their future independence in the R&D process. GM has since bowed out; and (2) The Indiana plant losing money so badly it was threatening to bankrupt the American operation. Toyota has now leveraged its new part ownership by employing excess production capacity at SIA to produce Camrys.
So their two biggest problems from that time are gone. When you say we have to consider that Legacy/Outback were "a year older", I am compelled to point out that they were still less than two years old, and much of the year moved only with large (by Subaru standards) cash rebates of $1000-2000 (and even more at the end of the year).
I think a lot will hinge on how popular the redesigns of Forester and Impreza are at the end of this year or early next year. I think it unlikely that Subaru will ever, with the current business model, get much above 200K sales per year, but as long as they can plan carefully to sell that many vehicles profitably, I think they will be OK. You can forget any substantial improvement in the dealer body with a sales volume that low, though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think the issue at hand is whether or not meeting this particular goal has any significant meaning. They've gone from 196K units to 200K units in 12 months.
Is this progress? Absolutely.
Is this the kind of progress they were expecting? Definitely not.
As Nippon mentioned, the 201K sales goal was for 2005, not 2006 and that figure originally started off as something like a 230 or 240K unit goal, but they kept cutting it back.
If my daughter were to complete highschool after 5 years instead of 4 and did so with a GED instead of a diploma, I would consider that progress. But I wouldn't be thrilled with her performance.
I think Nippon is right about SIA. Without that problem stealing so much of their revenue, they can focus more attention on the product line. 2007 and 2008 might be years when they can boast about sales figures.
Their business model relies almost completely on AWD. And I think, for as along as that is true, they will never get out of the 1% market share situation.
They could add to that. They have a good chance of earning a strong reputation for safety. They have a good shot with the entry level performance market. I just think a religious devotion to AWD leaves them constantly on defense and doesn't give them many offensive moves.
Well, you know where I stand on this AWD matter. No sense in re-opening another round of head-butting here. How 'bout we just agree to disagree on this matter, okay?
if they can sell 200K units per year profitably (and preferably with much smaller cash rebates than they have had all of this year), does it matter if they don't grow? I know it's "accepted" Econ 101 that growth is crucial to business success, but if the profits are rolling in, then I don't see why they have to change all that much.
Now in the long run, the rather crappy dealer network won't see much in the way of improvement with sales this low. They won't have the money or the motivation to improve existing dealerships all that much, and it won't be an attractive franchise to pick up outside of Sube's areas of strength (New England, Pac NW), where it already has pretty good saturation.
I am not sure if even that matters very much. The Sube faithful will continue to be the Sube faithful, I suspect, and they don't seem to mind the dealerships just the way they are.
I do think that in the next decade they need to make some MAJOR progress towards improving fuel economy, which is decent for AWD vehicles, but not great compared to other FWDers in each segment in which they compete. And given spiking fuel prices, which will probably continue to happen, more and more people are going to switch to the FWD if it can save them 25-30% (or more) in gas costs, I think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"I think their comment applies to most areas in the sun belt, which is a lot of people, and makes me think Subaru will probably stay a niche and highly regionalized brand."
I live in the southeast, and own an AWD vehicle - wasn't looking specifically for AWD when I purchased it, but got a deal that I couldn't pass up. AWD is far from being a neccessity down here...we may get 1 winter storm every 2 years.
With that said, I have discovered since owning my AWD, that there are many benefits to driving an AWD vehicle. Just last month, I drove it down to Florida and had other family members following me in a FWD vehicle (their FWD vehicle only had 4,000 miles on it, so the tires were new). On the way down, we came upon a major downpour, and were traveling on the interstate. The speedlimit was 70, and most people were running about 55 through the rain. Even in the rain, I felt very stable at 70, but did back down to 60-65. Even when driving 60-65 through some of the pooled water on the interstate, the AWD felt very stable and I never felt a hint of hydroplaning. Once the rain stopped we pulled into a gas station to refuel, and the driver of the FWD vehicle that was following me commented that his vehicle had started to hydroplane a couple of times while driving through that storm.
I have driven through several heavy rains in this vehicle, and it has handled great in all of them. My point to this is that I think that if a lot of people who have never considered an AWD vehicle (and I am not saying that I think you are in this group) were to spend some time driving one, they might get hooked.
If they can sell 200K units per year profitably (and preferably with much smaller cash rebates than they have had all of this year), does it matter if they don't grow?
Good point. No, they don't need to grow in volume. But it would be very difficult to reach such a high level of profitability selling cars priced in the $20-35K range.
If Subaru sold cars for more than $90K per unit, they might make 40-50K per sale. Profit margins on luxury of high performance sports cars are huge. (Look at BMW and Porsche.) But the profit margin on a 20K car is probably more like $2K per unit. You would need to sell 20 times as many units to earn the same profit.
I believe they did try to increase their profit margins by adding content, hi-po engines, and such. However, the success of that plans is dubious, at best.
Nippon, what do you mean by "crappy dealer network"? That there aren't enough of them, or that the ones that do exist are subpar in some way? If it's the latter, could you elaborate?
I seriously shopped for a Sienna and semi-seriously shopped for an Odyssey last month. I went to huge, high-volume Toyota and Honda dealers. The dealership experience at all of them (at least a half dozen) was wretched -- the salesmen were all six months on the job, and none of them knew anything about the product; there were closers, managers, tons of pressure, etc. I was so turned off by the Toyota dealership in conjunction with their bizarre options packages, that I will likely never again attempt to buy that brand.
In contrast, the Subaru dealerships I've visited since buying my first in 2004 were an outright pleasure. Especially so at the stand-alone Subaru dealerships.
Well now, I am no technical expert, but if you are talking only about hydroplaning at highway speeds, I would say that the condition of the tires and the design/condition of the suspension have a lot more to do with the matter than the drive configuration.
Having said that, I will add that the only AWD vehicles I have ever owned were Subarus. I do like AWD. The last one I had got me to thinking I would rather have a proper 4WD truck, which is what I have had ever since. But the fuel economy of the truck stinks, which has me thinking now that maybe my truck days are numbered. By the same token, I am underwhelmed by the FE of the current Subarus - the best you can do is 23/28 with a stick and a 4-cylinder. You want a 6-cyl or a turbo-4, or you want a vehicle larger than the small-midsize Legacy/Outback, your real-world mpgs drop into the high teens. Heck, I can pull 20 mpg in my 4Runner, with the V-6 and 4WD.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, it's kinda both: not enough, and subpar in some ways.
Not enough: try driving away from the coasts and finding Sube dealer service some time. I have done it. Especially if you are in the southern states, it can be hundreds of miles to the nearest Subaru dealer - tough if you need to be towed. By contrast, most small towns have domestic dealerships, and Toyota/Honda are never very far away either. Even in coastal states, if you get away from the big cities and into more rural areas, Subaru dealership service can be hard to get, and far away.
Subpar: when I owned my first Subaru, the only dealer near enough to get service from was a combo dealer (indeed, most Subaru dealerships are). You know how many tecnicians they had on staff that could service Subarus? One. You had to schedule sometimes weeks in advance to get his "factory trained" assistance, and if he called in sick on the day of your appointment, oh well....reschedule time. With my most recent Subaru, my nearest dealer was a combo with Mazda, and of course their bigger volume was in Mazda, so once again it was hard to get service since you had to wait for the two Subaru techs to have an available time. Not to mention, that dealership was fairly crappy, often ordering Mazda parts for a repair, or not stocking Subaru parts for common maintenance procedures, resulting in significant delays.
My 4WD now is a Toyota. Plenty of techs at a dealership less than two miles away, next-day appointments almost all the time, free loaner cars (something the much smaller Subaru dealerships could never afford to offer, although they would call the rental car company for you if you wanted...after that, it was up to you), and parts never more than a day away for repairs, with common maintenance parts always in stock. It's just such a difference.
Despite all that, I would still give Subaru another go, as I like the way they design their cars for the most part. But they do have to get their fuel economy up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, they mention Camry and Accord, so we have at least three. They know exactly what they're doing there - just it really stinks, when a big sumb fat kid can simply take your toys and proclaim they were there first :mad:
Well, are you sure? When you look at comparable (in size and performance) AWD vehicles Subaru actually is not that bad. Surely, it suffers when compared to FWD cars its size, but get their AWD versions, if available (V50 T5 vs. Legacy GT, Tribeca/Forester XT vs. RDX or CX7 AWD) and suddenly the comparisons get more favorable. There are some good OK mileage AWD cars, but they're usually slow dogs (Matrix/Vibe, new compact from Suzuki)
The only AWD that gets really good mileage with nice performance is A4 2.0.
It's too damn small to be a mainstream sedan. They are killing themselves in the American market with such a cramped little car as the Legacy as their mainstream ride.
No wonder it's "technically, based on passenger volume, a compact", despite being marketed (and priced) as something more.
Subaru's caught - too small to have dealerships all over the place, and don't have dealerships all over the place so they don't sell as many cars as they could because of it. Catch 22. Chicken or egg? All they can do is hope for slow addition of dealerships in under-represented areas, or that they design some type of vehicle that really gets popular and drives up the demand.
On another note - yes, those multi-brand dealerships seem to be much worse (in general) than Subaru-exclusive dealerships.
Well, when I said they had to get their fuel economy up, I mostly meant that they would have to do so if they want me as a customer again in the future.
But I also make that remark for the more general reason that in many parts of the country (outside the snow belt and Pac NW) people will shift away from AWD for gas-sipping FWDers just as soon as the gas prices spike some more. In fact, even IN the snow belt, plenty of people feel confident enough with FWD and some snow tires (a set of which cost a lot less than the added cost of an AWD vehicle vs a comparable FWD) that they will also shift back as gas prices peak. None of the Subarus top the 30 mark on the highway, while round-town driving in any of the H-6 or turbo-4 models will achieve around 20 mpg for many folks. You can save 1/3 of that gas bill by going with the FWD competition, and in many cases, get more interior space into the bargain.
And look at other AWDs: CRV makes 22/28 with the same power as Sube's H-4, despite weighing more and having a higher profile than any of the vehicles using the H-4. RAV4 makes 21/28, within 8% of the Subaru 4-cylinder, with the 269 hp V-6 and AWD!! Again, in a higher, heavier vehicle. Are all AWDs created equal? No, of course not, but we have been over that before in this thread: it will be well-nigh impossible to educate the average consumer on the differences. They can't even understand the differences between 4WD and AWD, so separating the nuances of different AWD systems is going to be RIGHT out the window!
Now back to your post, dino. You have mentioned some vehicles with what I would call piss-poor fuel economy ratings, like CX-7 and RDX. Considering the size of the vehicles in question and all. Also, you have not mentioned Subaru's bread and butter, the 4-cylinder Outback, at all. Indeed, the bulk of Subaru sales are still of NA H-4s. And those are mostly cars that sell in the $18-25K range, a range that is pretty sensitive to huge swings in the price of gas. Just look at how the NA auto market as a whole stagnated this year as a result of the gas. If the bulk of your sales are in that price range, you have to be worried about how many of your potential customers are just going to go FWD instead and save $50/month in gas costs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
With all the time I spend with the Straightline blog (along with my other "day job") I don't have the time, energy or desire to continue participating in this never ending "should-they/should-they-not" continue to be exclusively be an AWD brand debate. It's an argument that continues to go nowhere. Subaru will do what they feel is in the best interests of the company, which I sincerely hope is to remain 100% AWD for the North American market.
If I have anything new or insightful to add to the discussion, I will speak up; otherwise I will pretty much sit on the sidelines.
Toyota is going to give FHI little Daihatsu Boons (also Toyota Passos in the Japanese market) to sell as Subarus in Europe.
Maybe it could be a future Subaru in the U.S. too? :-P The Impreza is bound to grow when it is redesigned, cars always seem to do that. This could give them a replacement for the Justy (with or without AWD, who knows) - something for entry-level buyers to get acquainted with Subaru, and with really good fuel economy, to slot in size below Impreza.
Seems logical to me. Note that the Passo/Boon is already sold with available AWD and gets 40 mpg with the optional 1.3L engine (I would think it could accomodate Toyota's 1.5L from the Yaris, more than enough for a car this small for American roads). It is about the size of a Yaris, but it is a 5-door (hatchback) rather than the 3-door that the U.S. Yaris is. Think of it, a high-30s mpg Subaru you could buy for around $15K, which has standard ABS just like the rest of the line, and could probably be outfitted with the full complement of airbags for not much more. It would give the Fit, Versa, and Yaris a run for their money I think, not to mention boosting Subaru's sales a fair number.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Comments
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Tribeca sold 15k units the first year, the target was 17k. For this year the target was 35k but they'll miss that, too.
For whatever reason the Impreza is the hot model this year, so ironically I think they'll have a record year anyway, even though they stopped Baja production and sell 1 less model then they did last year.
And the Impreza is in its last year of production! Plus it has the airplane fuselage grille, albeit a smaller one. I say the 2.5T engine is the main reason.
-juice
But if you want a quiet Subaru, drive an H6 Outback or Tribeca.
-juice
Yup, there's no question at all in my mind that that's the reason.
Plus, they offer more trim lines of the WRX this year, right? There is the TR or something, and the Limited, as well as the "regular"?
The "premium push" was the reason they jumped straight in the deep end of the pool with the Tribeca, and look at the sales results.
http://www.aicautosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsuv.asp
11,700 as of the end of July? Pathetic. This model should have been introduced in "Brighton" form, with perhaps one higher-end trim, and a base price of $28K and not a penny more. Perhaps they could have offered the turbo 4 in addition to the H-6? I understand why they needed a larger SUV, but with the "premium plan" in mind, the design team took the wrong approach. Plus, wasn't the 35K annual sales goal revised downwards a couple of times from the original figure?
And after more than ten years of revival, what STILL generates their highest volume of sales? The base 4-cyl Outback, that's what. No wonder they popped a Brighton into that line-up. $26Kish (including destination) was getting a bit high for the base price of their most "voluminous" model and trim. And gas prices will undoubtedly hurt their turbo and H-6 sales just as much as they are hurting other manufacturers' models with not-so-great fuel economy.
It is encouraging that they have other volume products now (the WRX and the various Forester trims, as well as the Outback turbo) in addition to the 4-cyl Outback, as they can (and should) milk them more now that they got that "premium" thing out of their heads.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I kind of like the fact that you can distinguish the engine sound. You can't tell a Civic from a Corolla or even a Sentra driving by, but you'll know it when you hear an Impreza.
-juice
They shuffled options on the '07 models and the base model dropped a bit of content (moonroof) and got a much lower price, though the rebates went away so they're not any cheaper.
I think they're underrated and may look at a lightly used '06 model next year.
-juice
I have no doubt the 'Beca is a fine model, it is just running head-on into that age-old adage: "more than $30K? For a SUBARU??".
Pilot and Highlander are both coming up on their redos, which will come with a commensurate increase in price and termination of rebates by those companies, so maybe then the Tribeca will stand a better chance.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
A Tribeca isn't even close to that in price. Even the wind-damaged ones they had to sell as used cars were $25k or more.
I found an '06 with 6k miles (hardly broken in) for $28k with 3 rows, LTD package, and GPS NAV. I wasn't ready yet, but I may have bought it if I was.
I would like the backup camera on the 07 models, but I don't like the rest of the SE package, especially that chrome grille. Maybe I'll wait and get one, then paint the grille matte black.
-juice
This time next year the "re-skinned" 2008 B9 Tribeca will be for sale. The model surely won't die 'til they give the new look a year or two to succeed or fail... and by then it'll be nearly time for a complete model change. I'd imagine the '07's rebates will be quite high once the '08s are out. It'll be the perfect time to buy... current style will be heavily discounted or new style may be a looker.
When risks are taken with design and it fails, the knee-jerk reaction is to play it safe with the follow-up.
It's a shame, though. I think a simple black insert for the grille would make it look good, I just don't like all that chrome.
There are a few extremely vocal opponents of the design, but I have a brochure and every time I show people here at work, they find it stylish and even avant garde.
Maybe it's good, bring prices down so I can buy one cheap! And I won't see myself coming and going, blend in with the herd.
-juice
But there's good news. A Volkswagen dealership a few miles away has picked up the local Subaru franchise. It happens to be the same dealership where I bought a used Jetta for my stepdaughter about a year ago. They were very nice to deal with, more so than the (now former) Subaru dealership, and therefore I'm happy I'll be using them for service.
Absolutely. I have no problem thinking Subaru can produce a premium branded vehicle. The Tribeca proves it. They have the engine, they have the drivetrain, they have the cachet. However, they need a more upscale market without losing their existing market.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Dealers in my area are now running screamer ads for the new Outback Basic, manual or automatic, all in stock, $19,xxx (I forget the exact figure, I think it is a couple hundred dollars under $20K). I call this a rip-off - if they can sell the automatics for $19,8, then they should be able to sell the manuals for $19,0!! :-P
This model has two years to run, doesn't it? :-/
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
First year for the Basic. We'll see if they keep it around. The old Brighton models didn't last very long.
I guess they just needed something to price-compete with the Accord LX and Camry LE, i.e. alloys not standard.
I just sat in one last week and didn't like it, the '05 Outback went upscale and this de-contenting is a mis-match. The regular Outback is much nicer.
-juice
I kinda like the basic, although the steel wheels look a bid odd. I guess I don't mind the decontenting. I've seen a number running around, so they must serve a purpose, cheap.
Bring back "inexpensive and built to stay that way".
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So when you posted this sales news, which represents a 4000-unit increase from last year, with the Outback three years from its next redesign and the new Forester and Impreza still a year out, I decided to go back and read some of our long-ago posts.
It seems when we started out, Subaru was just coming off the second failed year of a 5-year turnaround plan. At that time, after two revisions downward, and with the Tribeca yet to be introduced, they set their 2005 sales goal at 201K units. They failed to hit this twice-lowered goal, as they have again failed to do this year, alhough they came darn close this time.
In the meantime, the Baja has folded, the Tribeca has been the most incentivized model ever at Subaru, and they have been compelled to introduce an Outback Basic to combat the price creep of the '06 Outback, which was close to $25 grand with a 4-cylinder engine and a stick.
They have "solved" their most immediate problem, the rivers of red ink flowing out of the Indiana plant, by selling part of the production capacity there to Toyota. By next year, they will be building as many Camrys as Legacys at SIA, which is an odd turn of events (but not surprising, given that half the plant previously belonged to Isuzu, proud purveyor of 8600 vehicles in the U.S. this year! :-P).
I continue to wonder what their future holds. I like 'em, and will be tempted to buy one again in the future, I am sure, but they will have to get their fuel economy up before I pull the trigger.
It's funny, just last weekend I heard the Magliozzi brothers on Car Talk mention Subaru when they said "it's southern California, what the heck do you want with an AWD car down there??". I think their comment applies to most areas in the sun belt, which is a lot of people, and makes me think Subaru will probably stay a niche and highly regionalized brand. So my original question remains - can they build a successful business model on niche sales (by auto industry standards) to people in snow belt states and the Pacific Northwest?
I am rooting for them. Maybe when the '08/09 Impreza line comes out, it will catch my fancy more than the current model does, and I will be able to back up my rooting with a purchase...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Especially considering that it was a year where the Legacy/Outback models were a year older awaiting a refresh, and a sales decline there could have really hurt Subaru. The decline was moderate. The Impreza sales were nice with the refresh.
I agree that the core Subaru buyer will be in certain regions, but I see so many Subarus in the Pacific Northwest that I think their identity is strong and their buyers loyal. A heavily revised Tribeca may really help them.
Bob
(1) GM's intrusion in their affairs - sales at these low levels threatened their future independence in the R&D process. GM has since bowed out; and
(2) The Indiana plant losing money so badly it was threatening to bankrupt the American operation. Toyota has now leveraged its new part ownership by employing excess production capacity at SIA to produce Camrys.
So their two biggest problems from that time are gone. When you say we have to consider that Legacy/Outback were "a year older", I am compelled to point out that they were still less than two years old, and much of the year moved only with large (by Subaru standards) cash rebates of $1000-2000 (and even more at the end of the year).
I think a lot will hinge on how popular the redesigns of Forester and Impreza are at the end of this year or early next year. I think it unlikely that Subaru will ever, with the current business model, get much above 200K sales per year, but as long as they can plan carefully to sell that many vehicles profitably, I think they will be OK. You can forget any substantial improvement in the dealer body with a sales volume that low, though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Is this progress? Absolutely.
Is this the kind of progress they were expecting? Definitely not.
As Nippon mentioned, the 201K sales goal was for 2005, not 2006 and that figure originally started off as something like a 230 or 240K unit goal, but they kept cutting it back.
If my daughter were to complete highschool after 5 years instead of 4 and did so with a GED instead of a diploma, I would consider that progress. But I wouldn't be thrilled with her performance.
I think Nippon is right about SIA. Without that problem stealing so much of their revenue, they can focus more attention on the product line. 2007 and 2008 might be years when they can boast about sales figures.
Their business model relies almost completely on AWD. And I think, for as along as that is true, they will never get out of the 1% market share situation.
They could add to that. They have a good chance of earning a strong reputation for safety. They have a good shot with the entry level performance market. I just think a religious devotion to AWD leaves them constantly on defense and doesn't give them many offensive moves.
Bob
Now in the long run, the rather crappy dealer network won't see much in the way of improvement with sales this low. They won't have the money or the motivation to improve existing dealerships all that much, and it won't be an attractive franchise to pick up outside of Sube's areas of strength (New England, Pac NW), where it already has pretty good saturation.
I am not sure if even that matters very much. The Sube faithful will continue to be the Sube faithful, I suspect, and they don't seem to mind the dealerships just the way they are.
I do think that in the next decade they need to make some MAJOR progress towards improving fuel economy, which is decent for AWD vehicles, but not great compared to other FWDers in each segment in which they compete. And given spiking fuel prices, which will probably continue to happen, more and more people are going to switch to the FWD if it can save them 25-30% (or more) in gas costs, I think.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I live in the southeast, and own an AWD vehicle - wasn't looking specifically for AWD when I purchased it, but got a deal that I couldn't pass up. AWD is far from being a neccessity down here...we may get 1 winter storm every 2 years.
With that said, I have discovered since owning my AWD, that there are many benefits to driving an AWD vehicle. Just last month, I drove it down to Florida and had other family members following me in a FWD vehicle (their FWD vehicle only had 4,000 miles on it, so the tires were new). On the way down, we came upon a major downpour, and were traveling on the interstate. The speedlimit was 70, and most people were running about 55 through the rain. Even in the rain, I felt very stable at 70, but did back down to 60-65. Even when driving 60-65 through some of the pooled water on the interstate, the AWD felt very stable and I never felt a hint of hydroplaning. Once the rain stopped we pulled into a gas station to refuel, and the driver of the FWD vehicle that was following me commented that his vehicle had started to hydroplane a couple of times while driving through that storm.
I have driven through several heavy rains in this vehicle, and it has handled great in all of them. My point to this is that I think that if a lot of people who have never considered an AWD vehicle (and I am not saying that I think you are in this group) were to spend some time driving one, they might get hooked.
Good point. No, they don't need to grow in volume. But it would be very difficult to reach such a high level of profitability selling cars priced in the $20-35K range.
If Subaru sold cars for more than $90K per unit, they might make 40-50K per sale. Profit margins on luxury of high performance sports cars are huge. (Look at BMW and Porsche.) But the profit margin on a 20K car is probably more like $2K per unit. You would need to sell 20 times as many units to earn the same profit.
I believe they did try to increase their profit margins by adding content, hi-po engines, and such. However, the success of that plans is dubious, at best.
I seriously shopped for a Sienna and semi-seriously shopped for an Odyssey last month. I went to huge, high-volume Toyota and Honda dealers. The dealership experience at all of them (at least a half dozen) was wretched -- the salesmen were all six months on the job, and none of them knew anything about the product; there were closers, managers, tons of pressure, etc. I was so turned off by the Toyota dealership in conjunction with their bizarre options packages, that I will likely never again attempt to buy that brand.
In contrast, the Subaru dealerships I've visited since buying my first in 2004 were an outright pleasure. Especially so at the stand-alone Subaru dealerships.
What are your thoughts?
Having said that, I will add that the only AWD vehicles I have ever owned were Subarus. I do like AWD. The last one I had got me to thinking I would rather have a proper 4WD truck, which is what I have had ever since. But the fuel economy of the truck stinks, which has me thinking now that maybe my truck days are numbered. By the same token, I am underwhelmed by the FE of the current Subarus - the best you can do is 23/28 with a stick and a 4-cylinder. You want a 6-cyl or a turbo-4, or you want a vehicle larger than the small-midsize Legacy/Outback, your real-world mpgs drop into the high teens. Heck, I can pull 20 mpg in my 4Runner, with the V-6 and 4WD.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Not enough: try driving away from the coasts and finding Sube dealer service some time. I have done it. Especially if you are in the southern states, it can be hundreds of miles to the nearest Subaru dealer - tough if you need to be towed. By contrast, most small towns have domestic dealerships, and Toyota/Honda are never very far away either.
Even in coastal states, if you get away from the big cities and into more rural areas, Subaru dealership service can be hard to get, and far away.
Subpar: when I owned my first Subaru, the only dealer near enough to get service from was a combo dealer (indeed, most Subaru dealerships are). You know how many tecnicians they had on staff that could service Subarus? One. You had to schedule sometimes weeks in advance to get his "factory trained" assistance, and if he called in sick on the day of your appointment, oh well....reschedule time.
With my most recent Subaru, my nearest dealer was a combo with Mazda, and of course their bigger volume was in Mazda, so once again it was hard to get service since you had to wait for the two Subaru techs to have an available time. Not to mention, that dealership was fairly crappy, often ordering Mazda parts for a repair, or not stocking Subaru parts for common maintenance procedures, resulting in significant delays.
My 4WD now is a Toyota. Plenty of techs at a dealership less than two miles away, next-day appointments almost all the time, free loaner cars (something the much smaller Subaru dealerships could never afford to offer, although they would call the rental car company for you if you wanted...after that, it was up to you), and parts never more than a day away for repairs, with common maintenance parts always in stock. It's just such a difference.
Despite all that, I would still give Subaru another go, as I like the way they design their cars for the most part. But they do have to get their fuel economy up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well, are you sure? When you look at comparable (in size and performance) AWD vehicles Subaru actually is not that bad. Surely, it suffers when compared to FWD cars its size, but get their AWD versions, if available (V50 T5 vs. Legacy GT, Tribeca/Forester XT vs. RDX or CX7 AWD) and suddenly the comparisons get more favorable. There are some good OK mileage AWD cars, but they're usually slow dogs (Matrix/Vibe, new compact from Suzuki)
The only AWD that gets really good mileage with nice performance is A4 2.0.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Well let's see, they're talking about 4 door, mid-size, entry level sedans so that includes:
Accord
Camry
Gallant
Altima
Sonata
Malibu
Sebring
Optima
Fusion
plus some others I'm sure.
The Mercury website excludes the Mazda 6. IMHO it shouldn't since the AWD is available only on the MazdaSpeed.
The Legacy is a compact and the S60, A4, C, Passat are outside the definition.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Technically, based on passenger volume.
No wonder it's "technically, based on passenger volume, a compact", despite being marketed (and priced) as something more.
On another note - yes, those multi-brand dealerships seem to be much worse (in general) than Subaru-exclusive dealerships.
But I also make that remark for the more general reason that in many parts of the country (outside the snow belt and Pac NW) people will shift away from AWD for gas-sipping FWDers just as soon as the gas prices spike some more. In fact, even IN the snow belt, plenty of people feel confident enough with FWD and some snow tires (a set of which cost a lot less than the added cost of an AWD vehicle vs a comparable FWD) that they will also shift back as gas prices peak. None of the Subarus top the 30 mark on the highway, while round-town driving in any of the H-6 or turbo-4 models will achieve around 20 mpg for many folks. You can save 1/3 of that gas bill by going with the FWD competition, and in many cases, get more interior space into the bargain.
And look at other AWDs: CRV makes 22/28 with the same power as Sube's H-4, despite weighing more and having a higher profile than any of the vehicles using the H-4. RAV4 makes 21/28, within 8% of the Subaru 4-cylinder, with the 269 hp V-6 and AWD!! Again, in a higher, heavier vehicle. Are all AWDs created equal? No, of course not, but we have been over that before in this thread: it will be well-nigh impossible to educate the average consumer on the differences. They can't even understand the differences between 4WD and AWD, so separating the nuances of different AWD systems is going to be RIGHT out the window!
Now back to your post, dino. You have mentioned some vehicles with what I would call piss-poor fuel economy ratings, like CX-7 and RDX. Considering the size of the vehicles in question and all. Also, you have not mentioned Subaru's bread and butter, the 4-cylinder Outback, at all. Indeed, the bulk of Subaru sales are still of NA H-4s. And those are mostly cars that sell in the $18-25K range, a range that is pretty sensitive to huge swings in the price of gas. Just look at how the NA auto market as a whole stagnated this year as a result of the gas. If the bulk of your sales are in that price range, you have to be worried about how many of your potential customers are just going to go FWD instead and save $50/month in gas costs.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
If I have anything new or insightful to add to the discussion, I will speak up; otherwise I will pretty much sit on the sidelines.
Bob
http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070103/REUTERSANE/70103013
Toyota is going to give FHI little Daihatsu Boons (also Toyota Passos in the Japanese market) to sell as Subarus in Europe.
Maybe it could be a future Subaru in the U.S. too? :-P
The Impreza is bound to grow when it is redesigned, cars always seem to do that. This could give them a replacement for the Justy (with or without AWD, who knows) - something for entry-level buyers to get acquainted with Subaru, and with really good fuel economy, to slot in size below Impreza.
Seems logical to me. Note that the Passo/Boon is already sold with available AWD and gets 40 mpg with the optional 1.3L engine (I would think it could accomodate Toyota's 1.5L from the Yaris, more than enough for a car this small for American roads). It is about the size of a Yaris, but it is a 5-door (hatchback) rather than the 3-door that the U.S. Yaris is. Think of it, a high-30s mpg Subaru you could buy for around $15K, which has standard ABS just like the rest of the line, and could probably be outfitted with the full complement of airbags for not much more. It would give the Fit, Versa, and Yaris a run for their money I think, not to mention boosting Subaru's sales a fair number.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)