I don't keep up with Subaru news anymore but unless they have really improved their engine reliability I will never buy another. I owned two in the late 1990's. Both had multiple head gasket failures and one had to have a new engine. When you end up spending half again what you bought the car for over it's life you think hard about buying another one.
I think now that Toyota is occupying the space that Isuzu vacated (and Subaru could not grow quickly enough to compensate), they can become profitable again.
It may be easier to do with more volume, or with much higher pricing, but there are other ways.
I bet they seek economies of scale by sharing parts with Toyota. For instance, why not use the same a/c compressors? An out-of-sight item that doesn't affect the character of the car in any way.
Auto climate control is largely panned on Subies anyway, so no big loss.
Good point. Plus other things that Toyota has down pretty well: Bluetooth, keyless start, and xenons.
As long as it's not Toyota's overly aggressive VSC and some of Toyota's weaker AWD systems.
Subaru is stronger teamed with Toyota than GM. That should be obvious, and as long as Subaru can maintain an identity, it's good for Subaru buyers. Saab certainly hasn't benefited from GM ownership, and they're almost a European version of Subaru in the U.S. (unique/quirky vehicles, loyal owner base).
on how far you want it to go. Personally, I don't want to see Subarus being built in Toyota plants, although I doubt that will happen in the foreseeable future.
I want to see powertrains stay wholely designed and built by Subaru engineers.
Sure, a lot of the incidental stuff could be obtained from Toyota, which would provide Subaru with economies of scale it could not otherwise achieve, and perhaps help with PR/advertising as well, an area where Toyota excels and Subaru (ahem) DOESN'T.
In that light, I am not sure how much I want a rebadged joint Daihatsu/Toyota project to be sold in the U.S. as a Subaru. I think it would live up to Subaru's reputation for reliability and would give them the sub-$20K product they so obviously need, not to mention boosting their fuel economy average immensely. But without a boxer and full-time AWD (as opposed to the front-drive-biased/rear-as-needed Daihatsu), it won't be like the other Subarus. If anything, such a model could be used as a stopgap until Subaru built something itself that could occupy this slot.
In a market where Acura struggles to be considered a "luxury brand", Subaru NEVER will be IMO. The luxury market is flooded. Given that, Subaru needs a wider line-up than it currently has in order to get noticed. And it also needs a car you can really buy for a price that is solidly under $20K (this presumes that the FINALLY redesigned '08 Impreza will begin to rise in price, above the $20K mark it is already pushing now).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I want to see powertrains stay wholely designed and built by Subaru engineers.
I am not sure it would effect my buying decisions one way or another, but after my HG's, piston slap, etc on my 98 Outback, I may actually welcome Toyota involvement in powertrains.
Not to mention how nice a Subaru would be with the same V6 in the RAV4. Performance, smoothness, probable reliability, and reasonable fuel economy in a Subaru without premium fuel. Put that in the Outback, and it's faster without the same weak (premium) fuel economy of my XT, while exceeding the smoothness of the 3.0. Put that in the Tribeca, and the complaints that it is underpowered go away.
I realize that the boxer is considered to be a Subaru core value to brand loyalists. But I don't think the "average buyer" that Subaru needs, cares about the boxer.
That said, such a move is highly unlikely.
Besides the engine, the transmission is another area Toyota could help with. Smoother, better-timed shifts, more gears, etc. Toyota just has a lot of strengths where Subaru is relatively weak.
You're not going to find a company without their gremlins.
I doubt very much there will be much interaction on powertrains. Maybe for a one-off hybrid, but that's about it. I think Juice's suggestion about economies of scale with the smaller parts and systems is a more likely story. We may see engines 10-15 years from now, but not within 3-5.
One question I have about the SIA plant is whether or not it will impact Subaru's growth. Wild speculation here, but if Toyota is using it for Camry production (lots of demand), will Subaru be able to expand the Tribeca or add new models to those assembly lines?
I was just writing a post in another thread about the changes in hood design as a result of new UK regs on frontal impacts. Knowing that Subaru uses hood scoops as a strong design element in their turbo cars, have there been any development changes mentioned in the press?
The euro Outback for '08 will look significantly different than the one for the USA. But the hood height isn't what changes, it's the grille. A lot of us think the 08 Outback grille hints at the new Tribeca face (to debut in NY in April).
But the hood height isn't what changes, it's the grille.
juice - I posted last week that I saw this larger grille and hood about a year ago at a focus group. The new hood is taller - they added a crease on each side to bring it down to the existing fender.
This seems to be a trend with the whole industry. Not sure if euro pedestrian crash standards caused it, but now everyone has huge/tall grilles. It may have started with Audi.
Are we talking about the same facade we saw in Paris?
With a boxer engine low in the chassis, I'm guessing it's not hard to work the necessary clearance between it and the hood. Subaru probably has a handy little advantage over other companies for that reason.
I was asking about the turbo units, specifically. I suppose the cooler might represent something of challenge, but I was thinking of the hood scoop. In addition to the crush space under the hood, some companies have been (voluntarily) relocating wiper jets and even some badges to prevent injury to pedestrians during an impact. I gotta figure if those items are a concern, hood scoops are too.
Personally, I think the hood scoop has become an affective styling motif for their sport models. The scoop lets people know when they are facing something other than a run-of-the-mill Impreza or Legacy. It would be a shame if they lost that instant recognition.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of scoops, but it seems clear to me they work for the brand. I was just interested in seeing if/how Subaru would address any possible safety concerns.
Are Subaru faithful going to allow this? Could Toyotas fat wallet and market recognition help Subie grow into a more mainstream offering? Would loyalists rather have them remain a niche brand?
Me, I bought my first Subaru over the weekend, an Impreza wagon so I am very much interested in the brand and its future (Boxer engine is so cool). I would welcome this if Toyota were to allow "Subaru only" designs and not the "dumbing down" rebadge crap that GM tried with building SAAB. :mad:
I think Toyota taking over completely has a potential of being either a great thing, or a disaster, or actually - both at the same time.
Great things: potential access to suppliers and volume discounts on some features, thus cost savings. Also - potential to real "midgrade" brand, something positioned exactly in the middle between Toyota and Lexus brands, competing with lower Acura, Volvo, Saab cars, which is exactly where I would like them to be: more than "bottom line" less then plush and "uncompromising luxury, whatever that means.
Disaster: bottom-line oriented developments to point of putting corporate engines, transmissions, or worse - suspensions and steering. I never cared for Toyota vehicles, while appreciating their build quality. Toyota is "General Motors of Japan", on its way to becoming "General Motors of the World". Its mindset, designs, and operations reflect just that. It "GM plus quality", nothing more to me. Someone in my office called them "white bread of cars" - nothing to be against, just no excitement.
On other word - I would have no problem of Toyota "stealing" Fuji's designs - I would cry if the opposite happened .
I think it makes more sense for existing FWD cars that Subaru sells, like the R1, R2, and Stella microvan. Those all use transverse engines and are sold in Japan. We're more likely to see parts sharing with Toyota in those segments.
I like the Toyota Aygo, and can imagine a clone of that car replacing the R2, for instance.
So I think the sharing is more likely in the JDM market.
If we start to see sharing for models sold in the USA, what I'd like to see is a flexible platform that can accomodate a transverse FWD V6 layout for the Camry, and also a longitudinal boxer AWD layout for a future Legacy replacement.
Think about it - the biggest criticism of Subaru's lineup is that the cars are too compact. They're too small to make a US-only big wheelbase, so we get the smaller size cars from Japan, limited to a wheelbase around 105". If Subaru had access to a larger Toyota platform we could see cars slightly bigger for the mid-size segment and maybe even an Avalon-sized flagship.
Or how 'bout Subaru takes over making AWD Siennas? That would make sense. Toyota swapped out the full-time systems for some part-time system that IMHO are a step down from before.
I'm fine with this *as long as* they can accomodate the boxer AWD longitudinal layout, which is what Subarus are all about.
If all they will sell are Camry clones, just shoot me now.
Seems to me that if Toyota were to gain controlling stake in Subaru, it's primary aim might be to make Subaru its performance wing. Toyota has become increasingly bland over the past decade, and has strayed away from any serious attempts at sporty or performance-oriented models. Subaru's core technology and image could be their way back into that market. Similar to what Ford has with Mazda?
That would be nice. It is possible considering Subaru has a serious performance image outside of US (Impreza is their most recognized model there rather than Outback, which is primarily American model). I would not hold my breath, though. Somehow can't see Toyo letting them loose and allowing resources just to make them exciting and get no recognition for it anyway.
the big models - the H6 is one of Sube's weak spots right now, IMO. Instead, make sport variants of the next Corolla and Matrix by plugging the WRX powertrain in there wholesale. You could do the same with the RAV4.
I like Toyota's new 3.5L better than any of the more powerful engines at Subaru so that could stay in the models that use it, but how about plugging in the NA 2.5 in the Yaris and Scions? The boxer is such a compact engine it might fit under the hoods of those smaller models without a lot of trouble. Toyota could have a whole lot more sport in its small cars if it would just lower their COGs and give them some more power. These would all be sport variants of these models, of course, leaving the fuel-frugal base and "luxury" models alone.
Best of all would be if Toy and Soob could work together to produce a lag-free turbo engine that could be used in higher-end models from both companies. Subaru already sells turbo version of its 3.0 in Japan, right? Imagine a Camry SE with the turbo-6 and a 6-speed manual - finally, a Camry that is genuinely sporty! (they would have to change some other things too to accomplish that, suspension, steering,...oh never mind)
Bottom line is, Toyota is a big enough company to have "sport" and "frugal" trims of many of its models, but Subaru has a more closely-honed mission than that, and I can't think of much mechanically at Toyota that I would want to see in a Subaru. Now, PR? Marketing? Cost savings via economies of scale? Yeah, Toyota could help Subaru MASSIVELY with all those things.
juice: what's wrong with Toyota's own VSC in the Sienna? They are about to put the new VDIM in many of the more expensive models anyway, aren't they?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Toyota's 3.5l is new and made Ward's 10 Best powertrains, but the 3.0l boxer was designed when Toyota was using the 3.3l.
Subaru has a 3.6l boxer coming out this summer in the Tribeca, and that one should be a closer match for Toyota's new mill.
The boxer drivetrain is laid out longitudinally, so it's sort of long. Not sure if it would fit in an xA. Maybe in an xB, though. An xB with a bigger engine would be interesting.
A Sienna with VSC is fine, it's just hard to get them equipped that way. I'm shopping them now - you need to get an LE model with package 3. Problem is, they're not that common, and they're costly. Over $26k right now, and that's cloth seats, not heated, still missing many of the other features I want.
You know how Toyota is, the base model is $21k but the loaded one is $42k. So even at $26k it is missing a LOT of features you may want.
The new AWD system they put in there is part-time, a pet peeve of mine. If it feels like FWD, and you can get VSC with FWD anyway, the premium for AWD hardly seems worth it.
If it made the vehicle handle better, eliminated torque steer, then maybe I'd pay the extra for the AWD model. I guess the current AWD system just doesn't impress me.
They did the same thing with the RAV4, downgraded from full-time to part-time.
I'd like to see more options to buy with manual gearboxes. And I really like the Boxer motor in my Impreza. It's quiet, smooth and peppy, but with out the coarse sound of the Toyota mills at higher revs. I think there is a lot more that Subie can offer Toyota than vice versa.
Having Toyota build Subaru into THE sporty brand would be welcomed. Let Lexus take on Benz and BMW. Let Subaru take on the Acuras and Infinitis of the world. Subaru would be perfect to go up against Volvo. Scion can compete with the sporty Hondas and Nissans, and Toyota themselves can take on the bigger Hondas, the Fords and the GM's of the world.
I know. I was really disappointed. When is Toyota going to let the enthusiasts in on the 3.5? I've driven the RAV4 with that motor and it is ridiculously quick and responsive, but the Automatic tranny just plain saps ANY kind of fun one could have with it. :mad:
Yeah, I had the same question you did when the new Sienna came out - why make the 8 passenger version available as a CE or LE only? No 8-passenger Siennas available with AWD or some of the higher-zoot options.
They say the next xB will have Toyota's own 2.4L in place of the Yaris motor it has now. We will know soon enough. Truth is, these are both companies that are pretty much on top of their games. Except for a turbo engine here and some marketing and cost-sharing there, I am not sure how much they can help each other. I STILL say Subaru could benefit from marketing the Passo in lots of places, including perhaps the U.S.
And so what if it's FWD? It's an entry-level Subaru. Give it some styling pizzazz, maybe a few sport options, price it around $15K, maybe make an AWD non-sport version available at the same price, I bet they would sell like hotcakes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It would make more sense to Scion to sell something like that. Toyota has far more dealers and customer traffic. They'd only sell maybe 10% more by offering 2 clones, one for Subaru.
The new xB looks great. They finally put a bigger engine in there, moved the gauges to the conventional location, and even offer HIDs as an option. I may consider one to replace my Miata *IF* they give it a glass roof like the tC model has. That would be sweet.
I am waiting for the auto show pics to get a proper look at the new xB. If they make all the changes I have heard about (including the ones you mentioned), that could easily be my next car, replacing the Echo in 2 or 3 years. The fuel economy would have to be there though. Fuel economy has not been the forte of the models Toyota has introduced lately...which is the problem I always have with Soob's cars - they may be a ton of fun, but they don't even have ONE model that can do 30 mpg on the highway or 25 in the city? C'mon, these cars aren't THAT big!
(Yes yes, I know, it's because of the AWD, yadda yadda yadda. The question in some peoples' minds (including mine) is whether the AWD is then worth the large-ish fuel economy penalty. Especially in "sunny" California)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Legacy 2.5i sedan and wagon both are rated for 30mpg highway. So was the 03-05 Forester, but they bumped up the power for 06 and sacrificed a couple of mpg.
At 23/30 mpg, though, the Forester was the most fuel efficient non-hybrid SUV, even if you don't require AWD.
Today it's still tied for the most fuel efficient AWD model (non-hybrid of course).
My Impreza is rated 23/29. My first tank is almost up and I recorded 28mpg. Not bad for an AWD wagon and the Boxer motor ain't no slouch. Now, I am driving here gingerly just to get a nice easy breakin, but it is also the middle os winter. I'd expect the mileage to improve when the warmer weather comes and the motor gets "broken in".
Comparatively, 3 people I know with Escapes, are lucky to get 20mpg.
Edit: You're in Cali? Your probably right about not "needing" AWD there. For you, it would be more of a performance enhancment, than a foul weather friend.
Now this is interesting, I visited my dealer yesterday and we had a nice, long talk.
The biggest issue they have right now, believe it or not, is the short supply of Tribecas (and the Legacy GT spec.B).
I guess they didn't have enough volume to keep 2 assembly lines busy, but giving 1 to Toyota didn't leave them enough capacity, either.
This particular dealer only had 6 Tribecas, and he said they often don't have enough selection.
CPO is also in low supply for 2 reasons - at auction the cars are commanding pretty good prices, and it costs them $400 plus to certify them, making them almost no cheaper than brand-new models. They had only one for the group of dealers, and they shipped it to the Annapolis location because it sold there.
As for the spec.B, it was supposed to be a regular production model for 2007, but they've only had one single spec.B all year long. That's fewer than they got in 2006, when it was limited to 500 units for the country.
Kinda frustrating, and hard to find the right balance. Seems they made too many Outback Basic models, as well as Impreza 2.5i models. The WRX, STI, and STI Limited are also in short supply.
It's interesting to hear things from the dealership side once in a while.
It must be running regionally. Here (Tampa) Spec B's are available virtually in every dealership, sitting for weeks or months. No trouble with getting WRX (although perhaps not in all configs/colors), plenty STIs (at some dealers more than WRXs). Can't tell about Tribecas, as they never interested me.
Comments
Yes, I've seen this news about the Boon (also sold as the Toyota Passo), as I posted about it in Straightline a few days ago.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2057
Initial reports are promising. Who knows, maybe it will serve as a basis for a future small car here for Subaru.
Bob
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It may be easier to do with more volume, or with much higher pricing, but there are other ways.
I bet they seek economies of scale by sharing parts with Toyota. For instance, why not use the same a/c compressors? An out-of-sight item that doesn't affect the character of the car in any way.
Auto climate control is largely panned on Subies anyway, so no big loss.
Car audio is another.
GPS Nav is another.
Back up cameras.
There are plenty of components like this.
-juice
As long as it's not Toyota's overly aggressive VSC and some of Toyota's weaker AWD systems.
Subaru is stronger teamed with Toyota than GM. That should be obvious, and as long as Subaru can maintain an identity, it's good for Subaru buyers. Saab certainly hasn't benefited from GM ownership, and they're almost a European version of Subaru in the U.S. (unique/quirky vehicles, loyal owner base).
I want to see powertrains stay wholely designed and built by Subaru engineers.
Sure, a lot of the incidental stuff could be obtained from Toyota, which would provide Subaru with economies of scale it could not otherwise achieve, and perhaps help with PR/advertising as well, an area where Toyota excels and Subaru (ahem) DOESN'T.
In that light, I am not sure how much I want a rebadged joint Daihatsu/Toyota project to be sold in the U.S. as a Subaru. I think it would live up to Subaru's reputation for reliability and would give them the sub-$20K product they so obviously need, not to mention boosting their fuel economy average immensely. But without a boxer and full-time AWD (as opposed to the front-drive-biased/rear-as-needed Daihatsu), it won't be like the other Subarus. If anything, such a model could be used as a stopgap until Subaru built something itself that could occupy this slot.
In a market where Acura struggles to be considered a "luxury brand", Subaru NEVER will be IMO. The luxury market is flooded. Given that, Subaru needs a wider line-up than it currently has in order to get noticed. And it also needs a car you can really buy for a price that is solidly under $20K (this presumes that the FINALLY redesigned '08 Impreza will begin to rise in price, above the $20K mark it is already pushing now).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I am not sure it would effect my buying decisions one way or another, but after my HG's, piston slap, etc on my 98 Outback, I may actually welcome Toyota involvement in powertrains.
Karl
I realize that the boxer is considered to be a Subaru core value to brand loyalists. But I don't think the "average buyer" that Subaru needs, cares about the boxer.
That said, such a move is highly unlikely.
Besides the engine, the transmission is another area Toyota could help with. Smoother, better-timed shifts, more gears, etc. Toyota just has a lot of strengths where Subaru is relatively weak.
You're not going to find a company without their gremlins.
I doubt very much there will be much interaction on powertrains. Maybe for a one-off hybrid, but that's about it. I think Juice's suggestion about economies of scale with the smaller parts and systems is a more likely story. We may see engines 10-15 years from now, but not within 3-5.
One question I have about the SIA plant is whether or not it will impact Subaru's growth. Wild speculation here, but if Toyota is using it for Camry production (lots of demand), will Subaru be able to expand the Tribeca or add new models to those assembly lines?
Bob
-juice
juice - I posted last week that I saw this larger grille and hood about a year ago at a focus group. The new hood is taller - they added a crease on each side to bring it down to the existing fender.
This seems to be a trend with the whole industry. Not sure if euro pedestrian crash standards caused it, but now everyone has huge/tall grilles. It may have started with Audi.
-juice
-juice
With a boxer engine low in the chassis, I'm guessing it's not hard to work the necessary clearance between it and the hood. Subaru probably has a handy little advantage over other companies for that reason.
I was asking about the turbo units, specifically. I suppose the cooler might represent something of challenge, but I was thinking of the hood scoop. In addition to the crush space under the hood, some companies have been (voluntarily) relocating wiper jets and even some badges to prevent injury to pedestrians during an impact. I gotta figure if those items are a concern, hood scoops are too.
Personally, I think the hood scoop has become an affective styling motif for their sport models. The scoop lets people know when they are facing something other than a run-of-the-mill Impreza or Legacy. It would be a shame if they lost that instant recognition.
Personally, I'm not a big fan of scoops, but it seems clear to me they work for the brand. I was just interested in seeing if/how Subaru would address any possible safety concerns.
I like the euro look better.
-juice
And thanks. I'll do a search for the US Spec.
This was frightening, though:
You really think Acura is going to take that styling direction?
-juice
-juice
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The grille looked taller and boxier, sort of.
-juice
Rocky
Right now they seem bold and shocking, but once we get used to these grilles they'll fit right in and most people won't even notice them.
-juice
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/industry/new-laws-pave-the-way-for-toyota-to-- acquire-subaru/
Are Subaru faithful going to allow this? Could Toyotas fat wallet and market recognition help Subie grow into a more mainstream offering? Would loyalists rather have them remain a niche brand?
Me, I bought my first Subaru over the weekend, an Impreza wagon so I am very much interested in the brand and its future (Boxer engine is so cool). I would welcome this if Toyota were to allow "Subaru only" designs and not the "dumbing down" rebadge crap that GM tried with building SAAB. :mad:
What do you guys think?
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/2264
First off, nothing has been done yet. This is merely a possibility—although a very likely possibility, nonetheless...
If it happens I'll be cautiously optimistic. I can't imagine Toyota buying Subaru, and then nuking the core characteristics of the brand.
Bob
Great things: potential access to suppliers and volume discounts on some features, thus cost savings. Also - potential to real "midgrade" brand, something positioned exactly in the middle between Toyota and Lexus brands, competing with lower Acura, Volvo, Saab cars, which is exactly where I would like them to be: more than "bottom line" less then plush and "uncompromising luxury, whatever that means.
Disaster: bottom-line oriented developments to point of putting corporate engines, transmissions, or worse - suspensions and steering. I never cared for Toyota vehicles, while appreciating their build quality. Toyota is "General Motors of Japan", on its way to becoming "General Motors of the World". Its mindset, designs, and operations reflect just that. It "GM plus quality", nothing more to me. Someone in my office called them "white bread of cars" - nothing to be against, just no excitement.
On other word - I would have no problem of Toyota "stealing" Fuji's designs - I would cry if the opposite happened
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I like the Toyota Aygo, and can imagine a clone of that car replacing the R2, for instance.
So I think the sharing is more likely in the JDM market.
If we start to see sharing for models sold in the USA, what I'd like to see is a flexible platform that can accomodate a transverse FWD V6 layout for the Camry, and also a longitudinal boxer AWD layout for a future Legacy replacement.
Think about it - the biggest criticism of Subaru's lineup is that the cars are too compact. They're too small to make a US-only big wheelbase, so we get the smaller size cars from Japan, limited to a wheelbase around 105". If Subaru had access to a larger Toyota platform we could see cars slightly bigger for the mid-size segment and maybe even an Avalon-sized flagship.
Or how 'bout Subaru takes over making AWD Siennas? That would make sense. Toyota swapped out the full-time systems for some part-time system that IMHO are a step down from before.
I'm fine with this *as long as* they can accomodate the boxer AWD longitudinal layout, which is what Subarus are all about.
If all they will sell are Camry clones, just shoot me now.
-juice
Doug
2018 430i Gran Coupe
What combination of Toyota platform with Subaru powertrains would you be interested in?
I'd like to see a Sienna with the 3.6l H6 and VDC.
Or just the Scion tC's glass roof on an Impreza.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I like Toyota's new 3.5L better than any of the more powerful engines at Subaru so that could stay in the models that use it, but how about plugging in the NA 2.5 in the Yaris and Scions? The boxer is such a compact engine it might fit under the hoods of those smaller models without a lot of trouble. Toyota could have a whole lot more sport in its small cars if it would just lower their COGs and give them some more power. These would all be sport variants of these models, of course, leaving the fuel-frugal base and "luxury" models alone.
Best of all would be if Toy and Soob could work together to produce a lag-free turbo engine that could be used in higher-end models from both companies. Subaru already sells turbo version of its 3.0 in Japan, right? Imagine a Camry SE with the turbo-6 and a 6-speed manual - finally, a Camry that is genuinely sporty! (they would have to change some other things too to accomplish that, suspension, steering,...oh never mind)
Bottom line is, Toyota is a big enough company to have "sport" and "frugal" trims of many of its models, but Subaru has a more closely-honed mission than that, and I can't think of much mechanically at Toyota that I would want to see in a Subaru. Now, PR? Marketing? Cost savings via economies of scale? Yeah, Toyota could help Subaru MASSIVELY with all those things.
juice: what's wrong with Toyota's own VSC in the Sienna? They are about to put the new VDIM in many of the more expensive models anyway, aren't they?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Subaru has a 3.6l boxer coming out this summer in the Tribeca, and that one should be a closer match for Toyota's new mill.
The boxer drivetrain is laid out longitudinally, so it's sort of long. Not sure if it would fit in an xA. Maybe in an xB, though. An xB with a bigger engine would be interesting.
A Sienna with VSC is fine, it's just hard to get them equipped that way. I'm shopping them now - you need to get an LE model with package 3. Problem is, they're not that common, and they're costly. Over $26k right now, and that's cloth seats, not heated, still missing many of the other features I want.
You know how Toyota is, the base model is $21k but the loaded one is $42k. So even at $26k it is missing a LOT of features you may want.
The new AWD system they put in there is part-time, a pet peeve of mine. If it feels like FWD, and you can get VSC with FWD anyway, the premium for AWD hardly seems worth it.
If it made the vehicle handle better, eliminated torque steer, then maybe I'd pay the extra for the AWD model. I guess the current AWD system just doesn't impress me.
They did the same thing with the RAV4, downgraded from full-time to part-time.
-juice
I really want something that can seat 3 people in the 2nd row, because the nanny rides with the 2 kids.
-juice
Having Toyota build Subaru into THE sporty brand would be welcomed. Let Lexus take on Benz and BMW. Let Subaru take on the Acuras and Infinitis of the world. Subaru would be perfect to go up against Volvo. Scion can compete with the sporty Hondas and Nissans, and Toyota themselves can take on the bigger Hondas, the Fords and the GM's of the world.
I really like the idea of a merger.
-juice
They say the next xB will have Toyota's own 2.4L in place of the Yaris motor it has now. We will know soon enough. Truth is, these are both companies that are pretty much on top of their games. Except for a turbo engine here and some marketing and cost-sharing there, I am not sure how much they can help each other. I STILL say Subaru could benefit from marketing the Passo in lots of places, including perhaps the U.S.
And so what if it's FWD? It's an entry-level Subaru. Give it some styling pizzazz, maybe a few sport options, price it around $15K, maybe make an AWD non-sport version available at the same price, I bet they would sell like hotcakes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The new xB looks great. They finally put a bigger engine in there, moved the gauges to the conventional location, and even offer HIDs as an option. I may consider one to replace my Miata *IF* they give it a glass roof like the tC model has. That would be sweet.
-juice
(Yes yes, I know, it's because of the AWD, yadda yadda yadda. The question in some peoples' minds (including mine) is whether the AWD is then worth the large-ish fuel economy penalty. Especially in "sunny" California)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
At 23/30 mpg, though, the Forester was the most fuel efficient non-hybrid SUV, even if you don't require AWD.
Today it's still tied for the most fuel efficient AWD model (non-hybrid of course).
-juice
Comparatively, 3 people I know with Escapes, are lucky to get 20mpg.
Edit: You're in Cali? Your probably right about not "needing" AWD there. For you, it would be more of a performance enhancment, than a foul weather friend.
Wifey does about the same in her 02 Legacy, though her fuel tank is a gallon bigger so her range is a tad better.
Frankly I'd prefer to gain a 20 gallon tank capacity over 1 extra mpg. Gimme range, any day.
-juice
AMEN. I love my 06 3.0R but I do get a little tired of having to fill up in less than 300 miles.
-juice
The biggest issue they have right now, believe it or not, is the short supply of Tribecas (and the Legacy GT spec.B).
I guess they didn't have enough volume to keep 2 assembly lines busy, but giving 1 to Toyota didn't leave them enough capacity, either.
This particular dealer only had 6 Tribecas, and he said they often don't have enough selection.
CPO is also in low supply for 2 reasons - at auction the cars are commanding pretty good prices, and it costs them $400 plus to certify them, making them almost no cheaper than brand-new models. They had only one for the group of dealers, and they shipped it to the Annapolis location because it sold there.
As for the spec.B, it was supposed to be a regular production model for 2007, but they've only had one single spec.B all year long. That's fewer than they got in 2006, when it was limited to 500 units for the country.
Kinda frustrating, and hard to find the right balance. Seems they made too many Outback Basic models, as well as Impreza 2.5i models. The WRX, STI, and STI Limited are also in short supply.
It's interesting to hear things from the dealership side once in a while.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe