Nissan Murano vs Toyota Highlander vs Subaru B9 Tribeca vs Honda Pilot

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Comments

  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    I was joking about the score... but OK.. 4 tires vs 1 tire - 4:1. The Subaru AWD is always engaged, that's why the 1/4" sensitivity. You can drive the Subie with a compact spare for only a few hundred miles before you start wearing out the
    AWD hardware.

    On a Haldex, the system is NOT engaged most of the time, therefore slight difference in tire circumference will not damage anything in the long run.

    As far as safety, 95% of drivers never push their cars to the limits where the difference between full time AWD and on-demand AWD would make an ounce of difference. Also, most Subarus don't have the VDC system, only the high end Outback VDC and Tribeca. So, if you do manage to lose control in a car with Haldex + DSTC, you have a better chance of getting back on track than with a Subaru without VDC.

    One of the best cars in the snow is the Toyota RAV-4, according to many reviews over the years. Has a lot to do with foot-print, weight distribution, tires, and a slew of other factors, not just the AWD system. But, in general, Subarus are very good in snow and other inclement conditions, much better than most SUVs. I know, because I own one now and have owned Subarus in the past.
  • foxbat121foxbat121 Member Posts: 211
    Let's get back on topic. The Subaru in this topic is Tribeca which is VDC equiped. Now, AWD does not necessary only being used in snow conditions. Most of the year you drive without snow. In those conditions, a properly designed AWD can enhance car's handling. Most of so called AWD cars today (Pilot, MDX and the freestyle in question) behave like FWD in 99% of the time while vehicles like RAV4, Highlander as 50/50 torque split most of the time. VTD/VDC Subarus has a rear baised torque split most of the time (45/55). Any FWD cars with a lot of torque/hp will result in torque steer which is no fun to drive unless all you do is straight line. That's why all sport car are RWD. If I pay for the extra cost of AWD, it better do something most of the time to enhance the performance and handling of the car instead sitting there wait for snow to fall. Why opt for an inferior AWD system just because you afraid of the slim chance of replacing all 4 tires at once?
  • cluelesspacluelesspa Member Posts: 648
    thats why they (Subaru) says to remove the fuse on the AWD system when you run the spare tire...
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Since we're comparing Freestyle to B9 Tribeca in the snow, I think it's also worthy to mention the Subaru's got a couple more inches of ground clearance than the Ford.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We're not talking about most Subies, we're talking about the Tribeca and how it compares to the Freestyle. I was responding to the claim that Volvo's AWD was the best - I disagree strongly.

    cluelesspa: only on the older AWD systems paired to automatic transmissions. Models with VDC (including the Tribeca) do not have such a fuse.

    Let's stick to the Tribeca here, because it's on topic, and because otherwise we'd be talking about 4 different systems (at least).

    Jeff: very good point, you're more likely to get stuck because you've high-center on a pile of packed snow than anything.

    -juice
  • catovacatova Member Posts: 4
    back from some test driving.....

    Well, first we (sad, but you need a the b.f. or male family member w/you on the lot if you're a car-buying gal) went to the Toyota dealer to check out the Highlander. Looked nice from the outside. Inside was not bad (though the *6* cupholders in the 2nd row and copious plastic were minor annoyances). Also didn't like the metal running board that was detached, jutting out from the body of this '06 model. Looked like an accident waiting to happen when I stepped out of the vehicle since I have very thin feet and ankles.

    Test-drive was the deal-breaker for me. Spent the time both as a passenger and driver. The sales guy was blasting classical music and I had to ask him to turn it off. Glad I did, b/c then I realized that the ride was distinctly noisier than my Lexus '93 GS. I had the sensation (esp. when driving on the freeway) that there was poor insulation from the floor of the vehicle to the road - most noise seemed to come from below my feet (whether driving or sitting in 2nd row). I hated that sensation (maybe my GS just spoiled me too much). On the plus side, I can say that the brakes were responsive (I was worried about this based on previous posts) and the vehicle handled well.

    Disappointed, we then set out for the Nissan dealer in this "auto mall" area of LA that we were in. But on the way we stopped at the Lexus dealership and took a look at the RX 330. I had driven it as a loaner when taking in the GS to the shop, and was beginning to think it might be worth the extra $ b/c the ride is good. Well now I have a huge thing for the RX330. So much so that I skipped the Murano test drive and called it a day. I couldn't see how the Murano could beat the 330 in quality.

    Now I'm looking over the options on the 330. My question for any of you is: am I right in curtailing the search? Should I be looking at something else? I am concerned that the Pilot is too big for me, so I had already decided not to visit the Honda dealer.

    thoughts are appreciated -

    :confuse:

    Curren
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    I think it often helps to take a first baseman along car shopping so you have someone disinterested who can point out flaws in the car or deal (or make some up to temper the salesperson's ambitions).

    As a woman, if you take your b.f. to the dealer and tell the salesperson you want to look at a car, and the salesperson starts to talk to the b.f., that's a good sign that you should find the sales manager and get another salesperson. Or just walk.

    As far as the RX300, well, you have to listen to your gut....

    Steve, Host
  • prosaprosa Member Posts: 280
    Just as well that you didn't like the Highlander. 2006 is the last year of its current model cycle, with a complete restyling coming along for 2007, so if you bought it you'd have a (relatively) old-looking vehicle in less than one year.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Drive 'em all. Even if you're right, it'll only reinforce your decision.

    -juice
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    Once you get used to a car like the GS, it's hard to get another car, because almost everything out there would be a step down in features and quality. Only another Lexus (like the 330) would provide the level of features and refinement that you are accustomed to. In addition, since you have first hand, long term experience owning a Lexus, you already know that this is the best brand around.

    The Highlanders, Muranos, Tribecas, Pilots, and other mid-priced SUVs are all pretty nice, but not in the same league as the 330. If you plan on keeping your new car for a long time, and you can afford the 330, then it's a no-brainer - go with the 330. You do not want to wind up with a car that will be annoying and frustrating for the next 10 years.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, keep in mind that's a car in the $40k and up price range nowadays. And SUVs are usually louder, since they are less aerodynamic and the cargo area can resonate.

    -juice
  • audreymaudreym Member Posts: 103
    I am currently on the same duck-hunt.. The problem is that by the time you get the nav system and a few other features, almost all of the "mid sized" "mid priced" SUVs are going to creep near or into the $40K range.. frustrating as it is - because it does not make the decision any easier.
  • cluelesspacluelesspa Member Posts: 648
    if you add all the options then the Luxury brands usually end up about $10k more... so it all depends on what you want and how much you value the Lexus/Infiinity/Hummer/ect. line...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think prices have gotten a bit crazy. A well equipped mid-size luxury sedan with a V8 will not cost you $50 grand. Ouch. And that's a Lexus GS, not an LS.

    Remember when the Lexus LS debuted? It was priced in the mid 30s IIRC.

    -juice
  • cluelesspacluelesspa Member Posts: 648
    I think you meant will NOW cost you $50Gs

    typo ?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting typo, kind of reversed the direction of my argument. :surprise:

    -juice
  • fudd2befudd2be Member Posts: 50
    Hi -

    It has been a while since I posted over in the Subaru forums. I have a 2000 Outback Wagon, and a third child on the way. I fear I am going to have to trade it for a larger back seat since I need to put 2 boosters and an infant carrier back there and it is not going to happen with the OB.

    I have been looking at the Pilot and Highlander, any other suggestions for not more than 32K?

    -Howard
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Hi Howard

    Is this close enough to $32K for you?

    http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp?model=B9_TRIBECA&trim=7-PASSENGER&command=overview- - - -

    If you can live with the 5-passenger model:

    http://www.subaru.com/shop/overview.jsp?model=B9_TRIBECA&trim=5-PASSENGER

    Just trying to keep you in the Subaru family. :)

    Bob
  • landdriverlanddriver Member Posts: 607
    I have a 2000 Outback Wagon, and a third child on the way. I fear I am going to have to trade it for a larger back seat ...

    Keep the kid and trade the wagon instead! ;)

    If you do decide to go outside the Subaru family, as a satisfied Highlander owner I can say the HL is a great vehicle; has a relatively large back seat and back seat area; I'd imagine it'll work for the kids even as they grow older. With aggressive negotiating you can get even a Limited HL for 32K before TTL from what I've been reading on the Prices Paid and Buying Experiences discussion; base HLs start at around 25K. Consider getting the third row seat option.

    The Pilot is very good too; somewhat larger than the HL; check both out to see which appeals to you the most! Also consider the Honda Odyssey minivan if you haven't done so already. In any case bring the three child seats to the dealer to make sure they will all fit.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Any one of the cars in this thread will do the trick, except maybe the Murano. Not sure if that 2nd row is wide enough for 3 across.

    The Tribeca's 2nd row is wide and had a 40/20/40 split, so it feels like 3 individual seats. Try it out.

    What I'd suggest is you take your child seats with you when you go shopping. See how they fit. You may not need a 3rd row.

    Pilot is probably the widest in this group, but check it out, each child safety seat has a different fit so see what works.

    Good luck.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    If the boosters attach using the LATCH system, I don't know if any of these vehicles are designed to fit three seats at once in the second row. Most vehicles have four anchors total, not six, which would mean that when attaching three seats across, the two center anchors would each have 50% more force to restrain. I'd guess this would still be adequate in most accidents, but if you want to be super-safety-conscious, be sure the vehicle you select has a third row, and LATCH anchors in that row. I know 7-pass Tribeca has this, and probably 7-pass Highlander and Pilot. Maybe others here can chime in on this.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    And hey, if the sky's the limit, you can always check out the new six-passenger Mercedes R-Class.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Valid point, and it depends on how close your kids are in age.

    Our older child has already moved into a booster seat, which uses the regular seat belts from the vehicle.

    I think that by the time a 3rd child is born, the oldest is usually already in a booster (40 lbs is the weight).

    So this might be OK. You could put the booster in the middle, because that child is also likely the most agile, and could get themselves seated, while the two young 'uns would need help so they'd be outboard where you can load them up.

    I wish these offered built-in booster, I think only the Volvo XC90 does in this segment, and even then it's only one, in the middle seat. The Volvo V70 wagon offered two at one point. That would be ideal - two boosters on the outer seats and then the baby in the middle with LATCH to secure him/her.

    -juice
  • fudd2befudd2be Member Posts: 50
    I appreciate the suggestions.

    I would try the Tribeca - but my wife is going to drive it and she does not like its looks. I will try to get her into one anyway to DRIVE it and check it out next time we are there for an oil change - I will have a captive audience. :)

    Right now the oldest is in a Britax booster. When we get the new car in 4-6 months, the idea is to have the two oldest in the boosters, with the baby in the infant seat. I was hoping to get the boosters in the outboard positions, and the baby in the middle rear facing.

    I will certainly bring all seats to the dealer to try the fit.

    Britax rates one of their boosters at 33 lbs, and 38" height. Since my second child is at this point now, and can sit in her older sister's booster with knees bent properly, she will be fine in the booster in 5 months. Right now she rides in a Britax Husky, which is a HUGE seat intended to be used as a 5-point harness seat for a child from 33 to 100 pounds.

    I will keep you posted. After I find the right vehicle, my next hurdle will be negociating - I have never been good at it, but I am determined to get a good deal this time!!!

    -Howard
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    If you're looking at all comers, I think I'd check out the Freestyle and Mazda5 too.

    Steve, Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    JDPowers did say men tended to prefer the Tribeca. They also said women liked the Murano.

    Odd, because in profile they look similar. Go figure.

    Good luck and let us know what you end up with.

    -juice
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Does it have to be an SUV? Are you against a minivan, b/c with the leaps and bounds they have made, they are wonderful people haulers (8-passenger Ody and Sienna make carrying all three kids within mom's reach easy). Mileage is much better on these
    (20/28 Ody, 19/27 Sienna) versus

    18/24 2WD or 17/22 4WD Pilot (8-passenger),
    19/25 2WD or 18/24 4WD Highlander (5-passengers only)

    and power is plentiful, much more than your Outback Wagon. You can have an Odyssey EX with leather, heated seats, power sliding doors, roof rack, 6-Disc CD changer, Dual Automatic Climate Controls, Rear A/C, 244 horsepower, and split-fold magic seat for under $31k, within your limits! Please consider a van, at least drive one before your purchase!!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    RAV4 V6 will be pretty efficient per the EPA, even though C&D lead foots got just 16mpg. EPA even for a V6 4WD is 20/27, though.

    -juice
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    EPA even for a V6 4WD is 20/27, though.

    That's better than the above SUVs, and much faster than all of them! If I didn't have a new car, I'd look at them, and I'm a Honda guy!
  • bahondaguybahondaguy Member Posts: 17
    Keep in Mind that the RAV4 (even the new ones) are smaller overall than even the Highlander, which is tight in the second row for 3 regular adults. Yes, they shoehorned a 269 HP V6 in the engine bay, but it is still a compact SUV. And, all accounts say the 3rd row is next to unusable for adults.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's true, but it's also the case for the Highlander. The back seat for both of those has more cubic feet of space than the 2nd row in a Mini Cooper, for comparison.

    -juice
  • jimyukojimyuko Member Posts: 2
    Folks,

    I am in Denver and its down to the wire tonight for a Highlander 3.3 V6 AWD 3rd Row vs. the Honda Pilot LX. I went in assuming that I would get the HL since we rented it a few times on business and loved it but, right now I am thinking the Pilot and the lowest trim LX has a ton of options and they are quoting me $27,045 which is pretty good in Denver. Toyota folks have been arrogant jerks and basically point me to the web site for the price and will not budge on anything and not really give any numbers to chew on.

    I head to Toyota one last time tomorrow and if I get the same run-around, I will head across the street to Honda and get the Pilot. We have driven both and rides are good for each. We did dabble in the new bigger 2006 RAV4 2 days ago and found the ride to be too rough and still a bit tight.

    Read Edmunds Vehicle overview for the HL vs. Pilot and my sense is that the Pilot is ahead by a nose. Only downside I can see is the Pilot is a bit more heavy and loses out in MPG by about 2

    Jim
  • steverstever Guest Posts: 52,454
    Maybe think about email and avoid the sales floor altogether? Faxes can be a good way to cut to the out the door price fast too.

    Steve, Host
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Go for the Pilot, right now the HL is pending a re-do and it's sort of the lame duck, given the RAV4 V6 will have more power and better gas mileage. Your HL will be "the old model" in a short amount of time.

    I like the HL but unless you get a fantastic deal your timing is bad. When you sell it, it will seem older than it is.

    -juice
  • jefferjeffer Member Posts: 31
    Nissan Murano vs Toyota Highlander vs Subaru B9 Tribeca vs Honda Pilot...
    These are all fine vechicles and each has it's strength's and flaws. For me if I'm going to get 4WD or AWD I want something that is capable in that area. HL, Pilot and Subaru's are known to be better than average. Murano unfortunately suffers in that area, although excels in others. But overall it's too pricey. The Highlander unfortunately has what I call a fatal flaw. My left knee hits the door in such a way that my knee cap ends up being the point of contact. This is annoying even on short trips, so scratch that. B-9 looks like an Edsel backed into a Murano at high speed and then was beaten badly with the ugly stick. Also no roof rails, only cross bars which lack versatility for kayak/bike. Pilot has lots of room but I hate the headrest which is just plain not comfortable. Also looks like a box on wheels.
    I'm still kicking these vehicles around on my short list but I've also added the Toyota 4Runner. Even though it is a truck body and not a cross-over which I assume is the focus of the others vehicles. But it really is my favorite of them all. It has the best 4WD system by far, plenty of passenger room and comfort, looks really cool (certainly more manly than B-9 or HL - which can be important when you are going through a mid-life crisis like I am), and did I say looks really cool - oh yeah I did. Also handles really well in all road conditions. The only draw back is the mpgs. But you can get one easily under 30K and even get a limited under 35K.
    Well I certainly have more obsessing to do.
    tx
    - Jeffer
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Mid-life crisis but still need utility, eh? :) Sounds like a job for the turbo Subaru Outback XT, to me. You get the world-class AWD, plus surprising utility (incl. rails and crossbars) and some serious fun from the right-most pedal. Handsome inside and out, too. Check out a limited model with the giant moonroof. Looks, feels and drives like a very sophisticated vehicle. And hey, if turbo's not your thing, Outback's also available with Subaru's smooth 3-liter H6 engine for power, in addition to the base 4-cyl motor, which still puts out a nice 175HP.

    Other than that suggestion, maybe just wait for the new Highlander or see if the rumor that Subaru's revising the B9's nose comes true. *shrug*

    Good luck!
  • jefferjeffer Member Posts: 31
    Yes, I do need that utility. In fact I have to borrow my x-gfriend's OB whenever I buy anything bigger than ~9 cu ft.
    So the OB is definitely a contender, only problem is that it's a little tight for me. When I first heard about th B-9 I had my hopes up, and my fingers crossed, that it would be the answer to all my prayers. But alas someone uncaged that ugly stick and gave it a beatin' to my utter dismay. Looks are not everything but they do count.
    As far as the OB it is still on the list and the '05/'06's seem to be roomier than previous years. I will be test driving one (or more) soon, along with the 4runner which I've already driven 3x's.
    I had a bad experience with a turbo Mustang once and I don't know if I can get over that so if I do go with the OB it would be the 3.0 or maybe, just maybe the 2.4 if my frugal sense kicks in.
    OTOH I could get a decent 4Runner for the same price as a high-end OB or B-9 so that makes it a very tough choice. My wallet still hurts a little though from those $3.59/gallon last fall. I currently get combined 22mpg (rated 20/28 for my Maxima).Then again maybe waiting for something new on the horizon might be the smart thing to do. In any case I think more testing is in order.
    Thanks for the recommendations ;-)
    Jeffer
  • jefferjeffer Member Posts: 31
    BTW- I just saw a new Pilot in a parking lot and boy-oh-boy they did not do it any favors. Looks like they tried to gussie it up by putting more chines in the body but I think they only made it look dorkier - imho. I didn't think it looked that bad before, my only complaint was the seat and headrest were not comfortable.
    tx
    jeffer
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    I've got an '04 Outback which is great, but I think the '05/'06s are a huge leap forward in design and in quality of materials. Very classy European-feeling interior, I think.

    Not sure how much bigger the newer ones are inside, but they seem less puffy-looking in the interior (& exterior), which helps you feel like you've got more space, I think. Plus the design is much cleaner, which also helps it feel more open.

    Hmm... checked some numbers. Overall size on the new models is about an inch longer, wider and taller, plus an inch more ground clearance. Cargo room is slightly smaller (but supposedly more usefully shaped) and passenger room is slightly larger. The 6-cyl's mileage is 19/26... pretty close to your Maxima. Not bad for adding the extra weight of a wagon plus AWD.

    Glad to see Outback's on your list - it's at least worth a look. Gotta figure out if you want rugged offroad capability (4Runner) or better everyday handling with occasional rough-road capability (Outback).

    To throw another option out there, there's the new Toyota FJ Cruiser coming soon, too. Based on your list, maybe not refined enough for what you're looking for, though. Too rugged/sporty?
  • landdriverlanddriver Member Posts: 607
    Go for the Pilot, right now the HL is pending a re-do and it's sort of the lame duck, given the RAV4 V6 will have more power and better gas mileage. Your HL will be "the old model" in a short amount of time.

    I like the HL but unless you get a fantastic deal your timing is bad. When you sell it, it will seem older than it is.


    jimyuko though I value ateixeira's opinions my take is get the car you like, don't worry whether it's a "lame duck" compared with the RAV4 or anything else (unless if you really like the RAV4 in which case get a RAV4!!).

    As a proud owner of an '01 HL I and many others on the HL forums can attest that the HL is a car people fall in love with! Follow your heart. :)

    Also please be aware that while edmunds says the HL will be redesigned in 2007 Motor Trend says it will be redesigned in 2008, so it's not clear when the HL will be redesigned IMO.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Subaru resells all the stuff in the Yakima catalog, so I'm sure they have custom clamps for those cross bars that let you mount all the Yak Racks, including for Kayaks or Bikes.

    Get a Chase Subaru Master Card, and you get 3% back in Subaru Bucks, and the cool thing is you can use those to buy accessories. I've accumulated $600 so far, which is more than enough for both of the racks you express interest in.

    OE fitment for the racks is a beautiful thing.

    -juice
  • pdkesqpdkesq Member Posts: 14
    Although we're really only considering the Murano and the Tribeca. We drove the Tribeca yesterday and it was excellent. I don't mind the exterior look and the cabin layout is absolutely outstanding. Going to check out the Murano and maybe a couple larger SUVs before we make our purchase. I really hate the Highlander so its not really an option. Not only is it beyong ugly, but I had to drive around in my Aunt's Highlander (04 I believe) and it is by far the most uncomfortable car I've ever ridden in. A complete piece of crap in my view. One of my co-worker's has a Pilot, and I might check that out, but my wife really hates Hondas. We've got a CRV right now and its absolutely terrible. If it wasn't a lease I'd have traded it in after the first year. So I'm a little dubious about buying a Honda SUV after this one. I'm looking forward to driving the Murano. Our other car is an 05 Pathfinder and its outstanding (its the second Pathfinder we've had).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Tell us how you really feel about the HL. ;)

    It's pretty plain looking, I'm surprised it can even provoke such emotions in you that you'd call it ugly.

    -juice
  • pdkesqpdkesq Member Posts: 14
    Hehe well what can I say. :) The wife really likes Toyota's so she insisted we test drive one (I had the misfortune of riding in my aunt's she didn't) and it was as bad as I remembered. I guess I'm a bit biased against Toyota to start, since I've almost always had negative experiences with their dealerships, but this thing was just so uncomfortable and drove so poorly I couldn't believe it. I guess others like them, as I see a ton on the road. The sales guy at the Toyota dealer seemed genuinely stunned that I hated it so much too. OH well, to each their own I guess. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My wife and I drove an '02 V6 FWD, back in 2002. It felt too big for us, slow responses, of course we were both used to smaller cars.

    -juice
  • gusbufgusbuf Member Posts: 75
    I purchased a 5 passenger limited B9 tribeca on Halloween, and so far I can only say really good things about it. I drove the Pilot and the Murano and I feel that the B( gives you way more for your money. The Pilot is boring, plain and simple. Don't get me worng, it is a very well built, reliable car. However, the design just can't match the performance. It looks like a car built in 1990 on the inside, especially the boring dash and control panel. also, the Pilot's body shape is just dull. The Murano has a great engine, and the car is very cool looking to boot, but the interior just felt cheap and the overall driving experience just didn't cut it for me. The Tribeca, while it does have a few short comings, is a marvelous automobile. It rides so smooth, seats are extremely comfortable. The whole "cockpit" design of the front seats is just really comfortable and well laid out. IMO, the Tribeca is the way to go.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Congrats to you on your new purchase. Some of us will take simple styling to the Edsel-esque front of the Tribeca, though. I like the Subie interior a lot though!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Looks more like Alfa Romeo than Edsel...to me anyway. Check out the Kubang.

    -juice
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    True, has cues of both.

    Seems like FORD should sell the Kubang...

    Drive it home, park it in your garage, then...



    KUBANG!


    It bursts into flames...

    Sorry, now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    heh heh... too funny. :D
This discussion has been closed.

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