But Marsha, isn't the situation of Ford and GM similar to that of a homeowner who has a huge mortgage, along with some savings, but can still pay the mortgage out of income? As long as income isn't interrupted, the homeowner is okay. The bank only cares about whether the mortgage is paid in a timely fashion each month. The problem comes with a job loss or a huge unexpected expense.
While GM and Ford have high debt levels, it is my understanding that they will be okay (for now) unless the automarket really tanks. So that is why a declaration of bankruptcy would be premature at this point.
Now, when I say, "at this point," I mean within the next year. And you said a bankruptcy filing by either Ford or GM is a strong possibility by July 1, 2006. I don't believe that they will reach the end of their respective ropes by next summer, unless sales really collapse (granted, always a possibility).
what happens when the debt and income reach levels where you can no longer even service the debt, eh? With GM and Ford's bond ratings, fresh borrowing is already a lot more expensive for them than it used to be.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Ford has had some first-year issues for sure - but BMW has had about 18 recalls on the X-5, you know, far more than Ford had even on the Focus, their recall king - for some wierd, inexplicable reason, C/R never seems to mention or notice that.... But let Ford or GM have a recall, and it's front cover news."
Consumers didn't say nothing about recalls about the Focus or X-5. They were just talking about reliability ratings. They said the following in their last big issue: "the Ford Focus and Escape continue to improve and now are among the more reliable domestic products The X-5 they said: "The BMW X5 and Mercedes M Class" are worse than average (in "terms of reliability" in their 2004 survey.)
But, will they reach that point by July 2006? And perhaps other factors could arise to change the picture - sale of assets; a deal with a chastened UAW; etc.?
my hat the day the UAW is "chastened" by anyone. They will single-handedly drive auto manufacturing out of the U.S. eventually. At least, among domestically owned companies. Ford should just expand its Mexican production facilities, and close factories in the U.S., idling them for a year if necessary. The UAW had its (many) chances to listen.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I agree, nippon. I think we're done in this country as far as manufacturing autos competitively for the world, or even this country. If we don't build them outside the UAW - GM, Ford & DC will slowly fade away. Japan had better start worrying about Korea as well. They're starting to put real cars out now.
What the UAW also doesn't understand is; if there are no jobs left, because Ford is bankrupt, or just out of business because nobody buys their cars anymore, their membership will have no jobs. Also, if Ford has to export factory jobs outside the country to remain competitive with the Asians, their membership will have no jobs. You'd think they would want to work with the company to keep the company alive that provides the jobs, rather than be adversarial - but that's not the union way.
You'd think they would want to work with the company to keep the company alive that provides the jobs, rather than be adversarial - but that's not the union way.
Agreed. I don't understand why they don't want to work with Ford to keep both of them going. A few jobs have to go for the survival of both entities, a simple concept imo.
The unions developed these stubborn tactics after getting the shaft from the manufacturers. I can't quite fault them for playing hardball, when that's the game they were taught to play.
The union is, of course, not interested in losing jobs because that means a loss in power. They are only strong as a union as long as they have a large membership. Union members know the manufacturers need to make cuts, but, just like anyone else in a similar situation, they don't want to be the ones getting cut. Especially when they read headlines about corporate execs getting even bigger payoffs to convince them not to run away from the sinking ship. They'd rather see golden parachutes get cut than the jobs they need.
Your points are well taken, but perhaps your premise that the union can reduce wages and benefits sufficiently to retain a substantial number of domestic jobs is flawed. I certainly hope that's not the case, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the supply of really low cost semi skilled labor in developing countries is so great that our workers are unwilling to accept the compensation that would be required to compete.
that our workers are unwilling to accept the compensation that would be required to compete.
It might end up being that it's not that the workers are "unwilling" to accept the competitive compensation, but just that they are plain unable to and still support a lifestyle above the poverty level. We may see the end of manual labor in the country.
My statement encompasses this possibility, but hopefully the reality is less dire. Maybe some belt tightening on the part of the UAW and its members that falls short of relegating the workers to the ranks of the working poor, will be sufficient to restore competitiveness. I think the Delphi-UAW negotiations in the coming days will shed light on just how much compensation reduction will be required to keep production in North America.
That Bob Lutz, Bill Ford, Dieter & every UAW member in the country, should all have to drive a Hundai Sonata for a month...... It would scare the hell out of all of them, and maybe then they would all work together to try and save the American Car Industry...
You touch upon something I've wondered for years. Do execs from U.S. companies actually drive cars from Toyota/Honda/VW etc. I gotta believe they don't because there is no way they would allow certain things to make it to production after they've sampled the interior of a VW of the refinement of a Honda/Toyota.
I don't know if the executives ever do - but the engineers do - I have it on excellent authority. They do buy competitive cars, and all the members of design teams take turns taking them home. Especially the benchmark cars for the class of car that is under design. Ford hired J Mays, who designed VW interiors, and the New Beetle, so someone must have noticed VW design.
Well I've known the engineers do, but I think the execs need to do the same. If they did maybe they'd ok some extra money when the engineers ask for certain things.
For Ford to have hired that guy they really come up with a dull car in the Ford 500, exterior wise.
For Ford to have hired that guy they really come up with a dull car in the Ford 500, exterior wise.
Well, he was the interior guy at VW , not the exterior guy. Just close your eyes while you're getting in a 500 and there won't be any problems. :-)
Actually, I don't find the 500 un-appealing at all.....but I also don't find it exciting. Then again, are 4 door sedans "supposed" to be exciting? I mean, really, it's a car designed for a family man. right?
Hey, the 500 looks like a big Passat, doesn't it? Are THEY exciting? But, I agree, the 500 is invisible.....You can't notice them. Just like a Toyota. I think he also designed the Thunderbird too, and the 49 concept car, which spawned the Fusion.
According to the Wall Street Journal today, Bridgestone will pay Ford $240 million to settle a dispute related to tire recalls on the 2000 - 2001 Explorers.... What does that tell ya? NHTSA cleared Ford for the rollover issues years ago, but people still blame the car, not the tire, despite the fact that no Explorers with other tire brands on them, rolled.
Do execs from U.S. companies actually drive cars from Toyota/Honda/VW etc. I gotta believe they don't because there is no way they would allow certain things to make it to production after they've sampled the interior of a VW of the refinement of a Honda/Toyota.
The problem for many years is that the Big Three would benchmark cars that were already in production from their competitors and build their new cars to those standards. So by the time the cars went into production, they were already 4-5 years behind the competition, who did not stand still. That's changing now.
That Bob Lutz, Bill Ford, Dieter & every UAW member in the country, should all have to drive a Hundai Sonata for a month...... It would scare the hell out of all of them, and maybe then they would all work together to try and save the American Car Industry... "
How can you lump Chrysler(Dieter) in the same sentence as GM? Chrysler has had great success of late in terms of sales. To saying something about the Sonata and Chrysler's cloest competitor to the Sonata would be the Sebring/Stratus tandem. The lates Sebring/Stratus redesigns didn't go well. The current Sebring in my opinion doesn't look better than the Sebring of the 95-00 model years. Also, the current Sebring interior materials look cheap. The Stratus while better looking than the Sebring its interior materials suffers the same fate as the Sebring's. I think Chrysler was going through some money problems at the time of the 2001 Senring/Stratus redesigns.
As for Ford their mid-size Tarus just lost interest with the buying public in the last few years. I suspect with the Fusion they should bring up their sales. General Motors I would worry about.
See, what I notice as every auto colominust says oh American Cars are improving reliability wise. I already know that. There is more than reliability to when it comes to selling cars, its interior pieces, exterior styling. I notice alot of people say Japanese Cars are bland. Besides, Ok some are. Well their exterior designs in the decade of the 90's wear their age better than most American Companies designs with Chrysler being an exception. Mazda and Nissan have definately picked up their styling after trying to be a Toyota clone in the mid to late 90's. Also, Like I said before Ford has gotten better with consumer tastes the past 5 years. Also, I noticed a poster say a while ago on these boards oh well the Employee Pricing is the only way GM can sell cars so maybe people who wouldn't give GM a shot before might buy a GM car again because they had a good experience with their employeed price GM car. I don't see that. Hyundai had a worse image than Gm did in the late 90's and they rebounded. Chrysler has rebounded. I think some people use the saying that Gm can't sell cars is because GM cars have a bad image. Well alot alot of people came out to see their new Cadillac line but nobody comes to a Pontiac showroom. Its all product. Either you have it or you don't.
Basically , the only company that can sell on repuation is Toyota/Lexus. All the other companies have to hit on their product exactly. Even Honda. Look at the reception of their core buyer audience when the 03 Accord Sedan came out. They didn't like it and sales dropped off from the 98-02 Accord. I think the 06 refresh on the sedan may hold Accord sales above water for a little bit but a new Camry comes out in 5-6 months.
I don't necessarily think the problem lies in the hands of the guys who design the cars. They might design a wonderful car, but have all the little details killed when production costs, supplier costs, and other factors are taken into account.
For cars built here in the US, the domestics have something like a $1,500 disadvantage. (Not true for cars built in other countries, but still...) Try building an Accord with one arm tied behind your back.
They might be able to do that, but then there are supplier costs. Because the domestics have a habit of making late changes to the design, and not sharing technologies with the suppliers, they have to deal with costs related to delays, poor quality, legal costs over contract disputes, etc.
Then there's the usual conflicts between designers and bean-counters.
Anyway... for the most part, all of these things can be blamed on the domestics themselves. They got themselves into these messes. But no matter where you place the largest share of the blame, it doesn't stop the fact that the domestics are at a disadvantage. They need to find cheap ways to compete. Chrysler is doing it with styling and outrageous engines (not unlike Nissan). Hyundai did it with a big warranty. Ford needs to find something unique and inexpensive to use as a weapon in the marketplace. That something might have to be more ethereal than tangible design.
about a four page article about overproduction, lack of better design, etc. It is a very informative article and has interviews with Lutz, Goshen and several other bigshots....and, of course, it discusses GM woes.
Actually, I don't find the 500 un-appealing at all.....but I also don't find it exciting. Then again, are 4 door sedans "supposed" to be exciting? I mean, really, it's a car designed for a family man. right?
you nailed it.. 500 is a great car for what it is (the same way Camruy and Accord are). It hasa clear audience in mind and it goes for it, whether or not us (who are NOT in the targeted audience) like it. 500 is targeted at the older folks (35+) who want a big luxurious car for comfortable driving and a touch of class. they don't want Maxima.. they want a Buick.. or something, but do not want CrownVic. For the rest of us, Ford prepared a different midsize - the Fusion - works great. they have an athletic midsize that fits right between altima and accord between luxury and sport.. and for those that want something like Camry, they have 500..
I heard 500 being called the best car ever... because it is what it is . .a luxury conveninet sedan.. that doenst pretento be sporty or young.. just is a good large sedan.. period... and Ford knew it when it designed it.
Ok, igor, no argument on the 500 - but did they HAVE to make it so damn boring? I can absolutely not pick one out of the traffic, if I try! It truly looks like every Toyota out there - not a great attention getter.
Nv you'd probably agree with me here- Ford has got to put a stronger engine in the 500 rather than keep using that wimpy Duratec forever! I bet either of my Volvos (both 850s) could run rings around any 500.
varmint: Ford needs to find something unique and inexpensive to use as a weapon in the marketplace. That something might have to be more ethereal than tangible design.
Unfortunately, with the upcoming termination of the Lincoln LS, the fumbled Focus launch, the Maurader fiasco and the failure to sufficiently update the styling of the Panther cars, Ford is becoming identified with blown opportunities and half-hearted measures...
NVBANKER: "Ok, igor, no argument on the 500 - but did they HAVE to make it so damn boring? I can absolutely not pick one out of the traffic, if I try! It truly looks like every Toyota out there - not a great attention getter."
well I think ford agrees: hence an early redesign of 500 for 07 model year, to make it a little more interesting. Among the obvious changes: it will get the Fisions's 3bar grille that is becoming Ford's signature mask (for cars at least).
jrosasms: Nv you'd probably agree with me here- Ford has got to put a stronger engine in the 500 rather than keep using that wimpy Duratec forever! I bet either of my Volvos (both 850s) could run rings around any 500.
point taken... 500 and fusion are getting a brand new 3.5 V6 starting next year. I do not remember the exact hp, but around 250 I believe.
the 500 (and whatever the freestyle becomes) could use this engine, but unless it gets better mileage than the 3.0, the 3.0 in the Fusion is more than adequate. Plus, that keeps some differentiation between the 2 cars.
Since this engine seems to be taking forever to arrive, I assume it is a whloe new design (not just an expanded Duratech). if so, maybe they can make a smaller version (3.0 or 3.2) for the Fusion, hopefully with better HP and mileage, which doesn't seem to be a strongpoint of th ecurrent motor.
It is funny to see som many cars (Hyundais come to mind) arrive with "all new" V6 engines while the 3.5l Ford motor seems like it has been coming soon since the first Bush was in the White house!
waiting this long, it better be a top of the class piece.
Even if Ford does finally bring the 3.5 V6 out, who's to say it will be as reliable and refined as the Nissan's 3.5 VQ or the Honda's 3.5 VTEC, or Toyota’s 3.5 ? I don't buy Ford because it stands for - Fix or repair daily! The only way Ford can compete, is by offering longer warranties on their cars and trucks. Maybe it will fix their unreliable image like it did for Hyundai. As far as Chrysler is concerned - read all the problems people are having with the 300. I'd take G35 over a 300 any day. Ford, GM, Chrysler are still behind in built quality and reliability IMO.
I think you summarized a big part of Ford's (and GM and Chrysler and Hyundai..) problem. Even if it is no longer true, many people still have the same perception. Even my wife, who knows (or cares) nothing about cars, made a face when I told her I was interested in the Fusion. Why?
"it's a Ford". She had nothing to back it up, but she "knew" that a Ford must be inferior.
Actually, the longer warranty isn't a bad marketing ploy if you are trying ti build up confidence. If they really are making a top product, shouldn't even cost them much!
you are exactly right ! I had bad experience with Fords, but it was with 92 and 96 models. My friend, who owns a car shop, tells me one thing - stay away from the blue oval. These perceptions are based on 10 year old history, but they play major role when you consider buying a new Ford. I would gladly give Ford a shot if I new that they had a good warranty to back their product up.
Ford has increased the duration of the warranties substantially on several individual models, why not just have the guts to do it across the board? Ford-owned Mazda has a 4/50 b-to-b warranty now - why can't Ford at least do the same? With a 5/60 powertrain warranty on every model to go along with it.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2z, you don't know what you're talking about, and I resent the fix or repair daily cliche - Ford builds some damn good cars. Occasionally they put out a clinker for a year or two, and this is what differentiates the American brands from the Asian brands, admittedly. The Ford Triton family of engines are among the finest world class production engines on the planet. They are running around in 90% of the taxi cabs and police interceptors in the US, and they'll go for half a million miles in limos with no tear down, if maintained minimally with oil changes. The Duratec, so broadly panned in these forums, is drop dead reliable. It may be old, but it's fully up to date. Just a bit small for the big 500. I drove one, however, and I promise you, it's more responsive with the 3.0L than the Chrysler 300 is with its 2.7L base engine they provide. I've driven both as rentals. Chrysler has optional engines though, which would be a good thing for Ford to do.
I've had Town Cars that go 150,000 miles before their first repair. I've had Navigators run 65,000 miles with no repairs needed. I've had Explorers run 140,000 miles with only some bushings for the frame and a shift motor needed in repairs. So, your fix or repair daily claim is invalid and ignorant to state. If you don't like Fords, don't buy 'em. This is America, you can do that. If you lived in Western Samoa, the national car is Toyota, they are the only dealers allowed on the island. If you want something besides a Toyota, you have to transport it there yourself, and pay a hefty fine for bringing an outsider in. That would suck, because I don't care for Toyotas, while admitting they're very good machines. But why do you need to come into this forum and perpetuate a falsehood? You can get a bad Ford, and a bad everything else, including some Asian cars, like my nephew who's Infiniti 3.5L threw a rod at 70,000 miles for no reason.
Additionally, Ford has some better ideas that are really nice from time to time. Like the independent rear suspension in their recently redigned SUVs - This was done in 02 and 03 - and very few have yet followed this fabulous idea, which makes them ride more stable, and allows for a very useful, flat folding, 3rd seat. Even the cubby holes in my Navigator were felt lined so they didn't make noise - a thoughtful feature that my excellent Lexus doesn't have.
Fix or Repair daily? Not in my extensive Ford experience - and you don't even wanna know how many I've owned in my lifetime.
Your nephew's Infiniti threw a rod? What year was that car anyway?
And I have to echo your comments about 2z- I too believe that Ford makes some very good vehicles, as my family has had a few that ran without problems at all.
It was an 01 QX-4. I had a 96 Infiniti I-30. It was a pretty good car, but as it aged, it wasn't a heckofa lot better than an old Ford is, and we had some considerable issues with it. But, it kept running until I sold it, somewhere around 90K. I think my Nephew's car was an anomoly to be sure - was just making a point.
Nv wouldn't you agree that when most Japanese cars get to a certain age they begin to look tired and have issues? Every Toyota my dad had (3 of them) was pretty much worn-out by the time they were nine years old.
On the other hand, if you meticulously maintain a Euro product (i.e. BMW, Volvo) they will still look good even when they are 10+ years old.
2zmax: I had bad experience with Fords, but it was with 92 and 96 models. My friend, who owns a car shop, tells me one thing - stay away from the blue oval.
Granted, Ford produced some dogs in the 1990s...Ford's 3.8 ohv V-6 was probably the worst engine to come out of Detroit since the Oldsmobile Diesel. Mate it to the front-wheel-drive automatic transmission in the Taurus/Sable and Windstar (which was virtually guaranteed to grenade by 60,000 miles), and it's no wonder a fair number of people have sworn off the blue oval.
But Ford seems to have the quality control bugs worked out for the past three years...are they really any worse than the competition from GM and Chrysler? Not from what I've seen, and in many ways, they are better.
Yeah - I agree grbeck - there are good Fords and bad ones. Like I said, I wonder how one company can make the Taurus and Ranger. But some people hate Fords who have never owned one. It's just fun. Almost like a cult - Ford haters. Mechanics like to hate them it seems - but it's not that they hate Fords, as they just compare them to GMs, which they love, because they're at least 10 years behind in technology, so they're easiest to fix. IMO, not a great endorsement, or reason to love GM, or hate Ford, who often is cutting edge on technology, if not completely proven on it.
I would agree on Corollas, on Sentras, and the like. However, I had a 96 Infiniti that we just sold earlier this year - and it looked great, even being 9 years old, and it had not been pampered or garaged. Seems the premium Asian brands are just as durable as the Euros or Volvos. I've rarely ever seen a distressed Lexus, even if it's 14 years old.....
You should come to Seattle, one can easily find a down on its luck early LS, ES, or even SC. I once knew a girl with a beat up SC400, the interior was especially shabby.
My immediate family has experienced all kinds of Ford issues - Taurus tranny and head gasket, lemon Contour, an F series with a power steering whine that was never able to be cured...yet my dad will never again touch a GM product after his S-10 Blazer. He liked his Exploder and we had a Tempo that got to 190K before it was sold, and it was used hard as a car for 3 kids. My mom has a 2000 Taurus...she is very displeased that it is virtually worthless in the market, and will likely replace it with a Camcord or Avalon.
Hey, the 500 looks like a big Passat, doesn't it? Are THEY exciting?
Well not exactly. The 500 has the roofline from the previous generation Passat, but that typical Detroit egg crate front end combined with the overall tall slab-sided stance makes the 500 look far worse than any VW Passat ever did, imo of course.
Hey nvbanker - Take a chill Pill I was only trying to show that there is a common perception, that Ford is not a good quality manufacturer. Even if you had only great experiences with Fords, it does not make them Great! You should not try to personally attack everyone whose opinion differs from yours. As for your claims that Ford makes good cars - I have no argument against it. However that said, after asking my fellow employees and my relatives and my friends - MOST of them (99%) said that they would not consider Ford as a new car purchase. Most all of them had a couple of bad Fords in their stables once. Even thought that was 5-10 years ago, the bad experience might last a lifetime. I like the new Mustang and the new Explorer - would I buy one? - Not unless they come with a 4/50,000 warranty like Mazda does. I don't have lots of faith in a company whose products have been consistently rated "below average" by CR and JD Power. And didn't you mention on the other forum that you're going to replace your Navigator by MB? What happened - I thought that you love Fords so much? What I'm trying to prove to you is that there is a common perception out there that Fords are not reliable - whether that is true or not - depends on your personal experience. Like I said - take a chill pill before charging with your accusations.
I'd be willing to bet that the problems with the Focus during the first two years are costing Ford a lot of potential sales of Five Hindreds and Fusions.
Aging ??? All cars age and loose their value, However if you treat them with no respect and beat the crap out of them - they will age faster - just like people. I don't think that your statement about Asian cars aging worse than their American counterparts makes any sense. I had both and they aged the same. However the Asian cars were a lot cheaper to maintain and never left me stranded like my Chevy and Ford did couple of times. So - here it goes - I've rented a 4 cyl. Camry for 4 month and beat the leaving crap out of it and when I took it to a shop for an oil change - the report was; excellent condition. I did the same to a Taurus once and a Pontiac Grand AM - both needed new parts after 2 month of heavy driving. I tried to break that Toyota, but it just kept going. And mind you that 2.4 L i-4 was much quicker and quieter than either Fords 3.0 Duratec or the 3.1L Grand AM. I drove 05 Mustang GT - it was awesome - it is the only Ford, which I could see myself driving. I'd take a Toyota or a Honda over a Ford any day.
Comments
While GM and Ford have high debt levels, it is my understanding that they will be okay (for now) unless the automarket really tanks. So that is why a declaration of bankruptcy would be premature at this point.
Now, when I say, "at this point," I mean within the next year. And you said a bankruptcy filing by either Ford or GM is a strong possibility by July 1, 2006. I don't believe that they will reach the end of their respective ropes by next summer, unless sales really collapse (granted, always a possibility).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Consumers didn't say nothing about recalls about the Focus or X-5. They were just talking about reliability ratings. They said the following in their last big issue: "the Ford Focus and Escape continue to improve and now are among the more reliable domestic products The X-5 they said: "The BMW X5 and Mercedes M Class" are worse than average (in "terms of reliability" in their 2004 survey.)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Agreed. I don't understand why they don't want to work with Ford to keep both of them going. A few jobs have to go for the survival of both entities, a simple concept imo.
M
The union is, of course, not interested in losing jobs because that means a loss in power. They are only strong as a union as long as they have a large membership. Union members know the manufacturers need to make cuts, but, just like anyone else in a similar situation, they don't want to be the ones getting cut. Especially when they read headlines about corporate execs getting even bigger payoffs to convince them not to run away from the sinking ship. They'd rather see golden parachutes get cut than the jobs they need.
It might end up being that it's not that the workers are "unwilling" to accept the competitive compensation, but just that they are plain unable to and still support a lifestyle above the poverty level. We may see the end of manual labor in the country.
M
For Ford to have hired that guy they really come up with a dull car in the Ford 500, exterior wise.
M
Well, he was the interior guy at VW , not the exterior guy. Just close your eyes while you're getting in a 500 and there won't be any problems.
:-)
Actually, I don't find the 500 un-appealing at all.....but I also don't find it exciting. Then again, are 4 door sedans "supposed" to be exciting? I mean, really, it's a car designed for a family man. right?
The problem for many years is that the Big Three would benchmark cars that were already in production from their competitors and build their new cars to those standards. So by the time the cars went into production, they were already 4-5 years behind the competition, who did not stand still. That's changing now.
How can you lump Chrysler(Dieter) in the same sentence as GM? Chrysler has had great success of late in terms of sales. To saying something about the Sonata and Chrysler's cloest competitor to the Sonata would be the Sebring/Stratus tandem. The lates Sebring/Stratus redesigns didn't go well. The current Sebring in my opinion doesn't look better than the Sebring of the 95-00 model years. Also, the current Sebring interior materials look cheap. The Stratus while better looking than the Sebring its interior materials suffers the same fate as the Sebring's. I think Chrysler was going through some money problems at the time of the 2001 Senring/Stratus redesigns.
As for Ford their mid-size Tarus just lost interest with the buying public in the last few years. I suspect with the Fusion they should bring up their sales. General Motors I would worry about.
See, what I notice as every auto colominust says oh American Cars are improving reliability wise. I already know that. There is more than reliability to when it comes to selling cars, its interior pieces, exterior styling. I notice alot of people say Japanese Cars are bland. Besides, Ok some are. Well their exterior designs in the decade of the 90's wear their age better than most American Companies designs with Chrysler being an exception. Mazda and Nissan have definately picked up their styling after trying to be a Toyota clone in the mid to late 90's. Also, Like I said before Ford has gotten better with consumer tastes the past 5 years. Also, I noticed a poster say a while ago on these boards oh well the Employee Pricing is the only way GM can sell cars so maybe people who wouldn't give GM a shot before might buy a GM car again because they had a good experience with their employeed price GM car. I don't see that. Hyundai had a worse image than Gm did in the late 90's and they rebounded. Chrysler has rebounded. I think some people use the saying that Gm can't sell cars is because GM cars have a bad image. Well alot alot of people came out to see their new Cadillac line but nobody comes to a Pontiac showroom. Its all product. Either you have it or you don't.
Basically , the only company that can sell on repuation is Toyota/Lexus. All the other companies have to hit on their product exactly. Even Honda. Look at the reception of their core buyer audience when the 03 Accord Sedan came out. They didn't like it and sales dropped off from the 98-02 Accord. I think the 06 refresh on the sedan may hold Accord sales above water for a little bit but a new Camry comes out in 5-6 months.
For cars built here in the US, the domestics have something like a $1,500 disadvantage. (Not true for cars built in other countries, but still...) Try building an Accord with one arm tied behind your back.
They might be able to do that, but then there are supplier costs. Because the domestics have a habit of making late changes to the design, and not sharing technologies with the suppliers, they have to deal with costs related to delays, poor quality, legal costs over contract disputes, etc.
Then there's the usual conflicts between designers and bean-counters.
Anyway... for the most part, all of these things can be blamed on the domestics themselves. They got themselves into these messes. But no matter where you place the largest share of the blame, it doesn't stop the fact that the domestics are at a disadvantage. They need to find cheap ways to compete. Chrysler is doing it with styling and outrageous engines (not unlike Nissan). Hyundai did it with a big warranty. Ford needs to find something unique and inexpensive to use as a weapon in the marketplace. That something might have to be more ethereal than tangible design.
you nailed it.. 500 is a great car for what it is (the same way Camruy and Accord are). It hasa clear audience in mind and it goes for it, whether or not us (who are NOT in the targeted audience) like it. 500 is targeted at the older folks (35+) who want a big luxurious car for comfortable driving and a touch of class. they don't want Maxima.. they want a Buick.. or something, but do not want CrownVic.
For the rest of us, Ford prepared a different midsize - the Fusion - works great. they have an athletic midsize that fits right between altima and accord between luxury and sport.. and for those that want something like Camry, they have 500..
I heard 500 being called the best car ever... because it is what it is . .a luxury conveninet sedan.. that doenst pretento be sporty or young.. just is a good large sedan.. period... and Ford knew it when it designed it.
Igor
Unfortunately, with the upcoming termination of the Lincoln LS, the fumbled Focus launch, the Maurader fiasco and the failure to sufficiently update the styling of the Panther cars, Ford is becoming identified with blown opportunities and half-hearted measures...
well I think ford agrees: hence an early redesign of 500 for 07 model year, to make it a little more interesting. Among the obvious changes: it will get the Fisions's 3bar grille that is becoming Ford's signature mask (for cars at least).
Igor
point taken... 500 and fusion are getting a brand new 3.5 V6 starting next year. I do not remember the exact hp, but around 250 I believe.
Since this engine seems to be taking forever to arrive, I assume it is a whloe new design (not just an expanded Duratech). if so, maybe they can make a smaller version (3.0 or 3.2) for the Fusion, hopefully with better HP and mileage, which doesn't seem to be a strongpoint of th ecurrent motor.
It is funny to see som many cars (Hyundais come to mind) arrive with "all new" V6 engines while the 3.5l Ford motor seems like it has been coming soon since the first Bush was in the White house!
waiting this long, it better be a top of the class piece.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I don't buy Ford because it stands for - Fix or repair daily!
The only way Ford can compete, is by offering longer warranties on their cars and trucks. Maybe it will fix their unreliable image like it did for Hyundai.
As far as Chrysler is concerned - read all the problems people are having with the 300.
I'd take G35 over a 300 any day.
Ford, GM, Chrysler are still behind in built quality and reliability IMO.
"it's a Ford". She had nothing to back it up, but she "knew" that a Ford must be inferior.
Actually, the longer warranty isn't a bad marketing ploy if you are trying ti build up confidence. If they really are making a top product, shouldn't even cost them much!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I had bad experience with Fords, but it was with 92 and 96 models.
My friend, who owns a car shop, tells me one thing - stay away from the blue oval.
These perceptions are based on 10 year old history, but they play major role when you consider buying a new Ford.
I would gladly give Ford a shot if I new that they had a good warranty to back their product up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've had Town Cars that go 150,000 miles before their first repair. I've had Navigators run 65,000 miles with no repairs needed. I've had Explorers run 140,000 miles with only some bushings for the frame and a shift motor needed in repairs. So, your fix or repair daily claim is invalid and ignorant to state. If you don't like Fords, don't buy 'em. This is America, you can do that. If you lived in Western Samoa, the national car is Toyota, they are the only dealers allowed on the island. If you want something besides a Toyota, you have to transport it there yourself, and pay a hefty fine for bringing an outsider in. That would suck, because I don't care for Toyotas, while admitting they're very good machines. But why do you need to come into this forum and perpetuate a falsehood? You can get a bad Ford, and a bad everything else, including some Asian cars, like my nephew who's Infiniti 3.5L threw a rod at 70,000 miles for no reason.
Additionally, Ford has some better ideas that are really nice from time to time. Like the independent rear suspension in their recently redigned SUVs - This was done in 02 and 03 - and very few have yet followed this fabulous idea, which makes them ride more stable, and allows for a very useful, flat folding, 3rd seat.
Even the cubby holes in my Navigator were felt lined so they didn't make noise - a thoughtful feature that my excellent Lexus doesn't have.
Fix or Repair daily? Not in my extensive Ford experience - and you don't even wanna know how many I've owned in my lifetime.
And I have to echo your comments about 2z- I too believe that Ford makes some very good vehicles, as my family has had a few that ran without problems at all.
But, it kept running until I sold it, somewhere around 90K. I think my Nephew's car was an anomoly to be sure - was just making a point.
On the other hand, if you meticulously maintain a Euro product (i.e. BMW, Volvo) they will still look good even when they are 10+ years old.
My friend, who owns a car shop, tells me one thing - stay away from the blue oval.
Granted, Ford produced some dogs in the 1990s...Ford's 3.8 ohv V-6 was probably the worst engine to come out of Detroit since the Oldsmobile Diesel. Mate it to the front-wheel-drive automatic transmission in the Taurus/Sable and Windstar (which was virtually guaranteed to grenade by 60,000 miles), and it's no wonder a fair number of people have sworn off the blue oval.
But Ford seems to have the quality control bugs worked out for the past three years...are they really any worse than the competition from GM and Chrysler? Not from what I've seen, and in many ways, they are better.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
My immediate family has experienced all kinds of Ford issues - Taurus tranny and head gasket, lemon Contour, an F series with a power steering whine that was never able to be cured...yet my dad will never again touch a GM product after his S-10 Blazer. He liked his Exploder and we had a Tempo that got to 190K before it was sold, and it was used hard as a car for 3 kids. My mom has a 2000 Taurus...she is very displeased that it is virtually worthless in the market, and will likely replace it with a Camcord or Avalon.
I'll have to try that.
I firmly believe the 4-door and family doesn't mean it has to be dull and non-exciting. The previous Passat was far from dull to me.
M
Well not exactly. The 500 has the roofline from the previous generation Passat, but that typical Detroit egg crate front end combined with the overall tall slab-sided stance makes the 500 look far worse than any VW Passat ever did, imo of course.
M
I was only trying to show that there is a common perception, that Ford is not a good quality manufacturer. Even if you had only great experiences with Fords, it does not make them Great! You should not try to personally attack everyone whose opinion differs from yours. As for your claims that Ford makes good cars - I have no argument against it. However that said, after asking my fellow employees and my relatives and my friends - MOST of them (99%) said that they would not consider Ford as a new car purchase. Most all of them had a couple of bad Fords in their stables once. Even thought that was 5-10 years ago, the bad experience might last a lifetime. I like the new Mustang and the new Explorer - would I buy one? - Not unless they come with a 4/50,000 warranty like Mazda does. I don't have lots of faith in a company whose products have been consistently rated "below average" by CR and JD Power.
And didn't you mention on the other forum that you're going to replace your Navigator by MB? What happened - I thought that you love Fords so much? What I'm trying to prove to you is that there is a common perception out there that Fords are not reliable - whether that is true or not - depends on your personal experience.
Like I said - take a chill pill before charging with your accusations.
There was a post with no image that was causing the problem. It's been removed and you shouldn't be seeing the problem now.
All cars age and loose their value, However if you treat them with no respect and beat the crap out of them - they will age faster - just like people. I don't think that your statement about Asian cars aging worse than their American counterparts makes any sense.
I had both and they aged the same. However the Asian cars were a lot cheaper to maintain and never left me stranded like my Chevy and Ford did couple of times.
So - here it goes - I've rented a 4 cyl. Camry for 4 month and beat the leaving crap out of it and when I took it to a shop for an oil change - the report was; excellent condition.
I did the same to a Taurus once and a Pontiac Grand AM - both needed new parts after 2 month of heavy driving. I tried to break that Toyota, but it just kept going. And mind you that 2.4 L i-4 was much quicker and quieter than either Fords 3.0 Duratec or the 3.1L Grand AM. I drove 05 Mustang GT - it was awesome - it is the only Ford, which I could see myself driving. I'd take a Toyota or a Honda over a Ford any day.