What about the future of Ford Inc??

dan1

Chrysler is where it is on the list because they earned thier bad reputation. Sure they have some good looking vehicles and even if they are better in quality now than they used to be, they still have a long way to go. :lemon: They other side to it is anyone who has had to deal with thier service deptartments will be turned off to the brand.

My bad experience was in the early 90's and the service was so bad (3 different dealers), I just will not consider them. Its kind of like the issue with the Durango's front end componants failing. Chrysler's stance was that it was not a major concern. Well nothing is a major concern to them!

I want to like their cars but for now I will buy elsewhere.

nippononly

"and should Fusion be hurt because one of the supliers went belly up is unfortunates especially because ford had nothing to do with this, and was a victim of someone elses problem..."

Not saying I disagree NECESSARILY, but if Ford forces their suppliers into the impossible position of cutting every corner to meet the spec while reducing their prices, isn't something inevitably going to give?

I understand that while Toyota uses a lot of outside suppliers like everyone else, it makes more of its parts in-house than most manufacturers, which to me seems really smart for stuff that is not universal (obviously for stuff like tires, batteries, etc yu look to outside suppliers). It reduces the type of problems you have with the parts, you can control costs better if you make it yourself, and the number of hiccups like the Fusion thing get reduced.

Certainly when it comes to stuff like ENGINES, I fail to see why the manufacturer isn't making them themselves, especially if they are having a lot of problems with the outsourced ones, like Ford apparently is with the big diesels. I am sure someone will explain this to me...

:-)

grbeck

nippononly: Certainly when it comes to stuff like ENGINES, I fail to see why the manufacturer isn't making them themselves, especially if they are having a lot of problems with the outsourced ones, like Ford apparently is with the big diesels. I am sure someone will explain this to me...

Ford probably saved a bundle by allowing another company to handle development and manufacturing costs.

The previous generation Ford diesel - which was also developed and manufactured by another company exclusively for Ford - had a very good reputation. Some of my relatives are farmers, and they all swore by the previous generation of Ford Powerstroke diesels.

As for Ford's higher warranty costs...could this also be because the company is being more generous in handling warranty claims? One way for a company to cut warranty expenses is to get tough on claims and start denying them, which looks great when the expenditures are tallied, but doesn't necessarily mean that quality has improved.

The last few launches - Five Hundred/Montego, Mustang, F-150 - have gone well for the company. The bugs seem to be worked out of the Fusion and the Escape. I'm not quite sure that this higher level of expenditures is necessarily an indicator of declining quality.

marsha7

Your point on the homeowner and his mortgage make good sense, but I do not believe it applies here, because while the mortgage is probably a fixed debt for a specific time, the debt on the automakers just goes on and on...plus, with their credit downgraded to junk, their interest costs will increase...which is like the homeowner with an ARM at 2%...he can afford it now, but not when it goes up to 5%...plus health care costs are increasing (despite that agreement), retiree costs are going up, but profit is not going up...their highest profit vehicles, SUVs and trucks will take a beating with $3 gasoline, while their high-mpg vehicles make them almost nothing...remember, even with the high profits of SUVs, GM and Ford lost money on North American vehicle sales, what will happen when the only vehicles sold are the low-profit, no-profit vehicles...

Oh, and don't forget...their pensions are underfunded by, I believe, at least 5 billion each...if they had to pay that money in from savings, their savings drop quite a lot...

Lastly, I predict July 1 as the midyear point...nothing says it may just wait until Oct or Xmas of 2006...

mirth

understand that while Toyota uses a lot of outside suppliers like everyone else, it makes more of its parts in-house than most manufacturers, which to me seems really smart for stuff that is not universal (obviously for stuff like tires, batteries, etc yu look to outside suppliers). It reduces the type of problems you have with the parts

Yeah, but even Toyota is beating up their suppliers on price, and I think it's showing in the increased number of Toyota recalls (just recently we've seen one for 800K cars, then one for 1.5M cars). Maybe their suppliers are making better money than the Big 3 suppliers, but that doesn't mean the parts are better.

I don't think Ford scrambled to get parts for the Fusion - they just delayed the car until the properly made parts were available. Similar things happened with the launches of the Mustang and the Five Hundred, and because Ford delayed them to get things right the vehicles had much fewer problems.

nitromax

There have been very few problems with the Freestyle as well. Some initial problems with the CVT programming but that was resolved with a re-flash on the early production models.

I guess I could also say the radio has been an issue with some folks too. (CDs skipping) Once again, that is provided by an outside vendor and not necessarily Fords fault. They have been replacing radios as needed.

All in all though. A poor radio seems to be the only"across-the-board" issue with the Freestyle.

nippononly

exactly - what was the big Toyota recall for? A headlight switch! The truck recall back in May was for poorly manufactured ball joints. Toyota should be making all that stuff itself, then it wouldn't be subject to huge recalls like that. And the irony is, the recent cars recalled for the switch were almost all in Japan, Toyota's home turf, rather than around the world!

If Ford's bottom line is being hurt because warranty claims are so frequent on these diesel engines, it seems like it wouldn't have much to lose by building its own. It obviously has plenty of experience building engines.

varmint

The issues with the diesel engine are not the only warranty cost dragging on Ford's bottom line. That's just the singular example Ford's spokesman was willing to name.

mirth

The major auto companies just can't afford to make the majority of parts themselves. It's just not manageable - they can't do it and still be competitive. I'm afraid that parts quality is becoming the victim of the increased competition in the auto industry.

stickguy

From what I have read, it sounds like the fundamental difference 9s the the domestics (GM in particular I think) look at it as an adversarial relationship, and like to throw their weight around demanding they cut the price, and you know where that shows up!

Toyota, OTOH, still wants a low price, but the tend to partner with the suppliers to make sure that everything goes well, and might even allow a change that might make a part more expensive if the supplier could show that it has quality implications.

varmint

That's pretty close to what I've read.

Toyota, Honda, and others demand cost cuts just like the domestics. But, unlike the domestics, they will help the supplier figure out how to do it. They share technology, and sometimes even development costs, in order to aid the supplier in manufacturing the parts within their target price range.

nvbanker

As to the point of forcing suppliers into bankruptcy with impossible specs and prices - how much more are you willing to pay for a Ford? Not one dollar more than you have to, I'll bet. Even the Space Shuttle is entirely made of parts supplied by the lowest bidder....And, there you go.

As to the Diesel - Navistar is the producer of the engines, former and current. At one time, I had heard that Ford owned a piece of Navistar, which is an International Harvester division, I believe. Not sure that's true anymore, but Dodge buys their Diesels from Cummins. GM is the only manufacturer to go it alone, I believe, with previously disasterous results. I've not heard of any trouble with the Duramax, but this is the first time, since the Oldsmobile diesel that GM has got it right.

grbeck

You raise many good points, but I think that the Ford family will fight to avoid bankruptcy, if for no other reason than a declaration of bankruptcy will wipe out the family's stake in the company.

Plus, I still believe that if one domestic company files for bankruptcy, it will take some pressure off the remaining domestic players, as it will be very difficult for an automobile manufacturer to recover from a declaration of bankruptcy. This isn't the airline business. People who buy a new vehicle want the manufacturer around to service it and honor the warranty. Sales will plummet and many dealers will abandon their franchises. Many of those sales will go to the remaining domestic manufacturers.

At this point, GM still seems to be in worse shape than Ford. And the more I read about GM's agreement with the UAW to cut healthcare expenses, the less impressed I am with it. It is shaping up to be much ado about nothing, in my book.

mschmal

Thanks to the recent $300 million loss, Ford's cash surplus only exceeds its debt by just over a $1,000,000,000.

It is amazing to me that the press can rave about all these dot coms that have no profit, no cash surplus, no history of producing a profit, no likely hood of producing a profit in the short term future.

Ford though gets bashed and bashed and bashed. Personally, I think Ford should go private.

It is clear that Ford has excess capacity and that excess capacity drives down profitable but bankruptcy?

IMHO until car companies fully embrace the current market conditions and reality none of them are safe.

Today people what a car that closely reflects their image of themselves, their lifestyle, etc. What this means is that even two models in the same price and size category are not necessarily direct competitors.

The Mazda 6 and the Mercury are cousins, but are they competitors? for the same customers?

The fragmentation of the auto industry is only going to increase. Either manufacturer are going to focus on a niche like Mazda has or they are going to have to have a produce enough differenciation between trim levels to appeal to completely different types of people.

Ford is doing this to some extent with the F-150 and it seems pretty successful. There is an F-150 for everyone from the $21,000 work truck to the $45,000+ luxury truck.

The Focus is an example of how Ford is missing the boat. The interior of this car is so bland and econoboxish that it has no chance competing against the Mazda3, Jetta or other premium compacts.

I'm one of those weird Americans that would prefer a smaller car with more features and equipment than just buying a bigger car. I think more people in my age bracket are like me (25-40). With gas prices going up, smaller just may mean better.

Mark

chuck1959

That's why we have LOST 2 of the shuttles! As far as the diesels...not just Olds...had them...they were doomed from the beginning. As I understood, they were converted gasoline engines (350's?) as opposed to being built as a diesel like the current ones. Plus you had to make sure you kept up the routine maintenence religousally. IE: I had a couple of friends that had Olds diesels. One a 98 and one a Cutlass, 1979 IIRC. One friend ((98) was very lax on the oil changes and etc. The other NEVER miss an oil change evry 3,000 miles. He kept up that car very well. Guess which one blew up at 15,000 miles! Yep the "98". The Cutlass my friend sold (lost his butt). 5 years ago and it had over 100,000 miles on it.

jefferyg

in the early 80's Oldsmobile put a 307 gasoline engine in their big cars, 88 and 98. My mom had a 1984 Delta 88 with that engine in it. The engine had actually started out as a diesel, but due to the problems they encountered they manufactured new heads and used the diesel blocks to produce the 307s. It was a strong engine and came with 4bbl carb. Many of those engines are still in service today, largely because the block was built to higher specs b/c of being built as a diesel.

nvbanker

We lost 2 of em? Dang! :confuse:

varmint

3 if you count the one behind the couch.

grbeck

Didn't the Cutlass use a smaller diesel that had most of the bugs worked out by that time?

2zmax

Coming to work this morning, I've noticed a brand new silver Fusion on the lot.
It was a SEL V6 with black leather interior. Wow, it does look sharp - Good Job Ford, the car looks much better than the competition. And if it drives like Mazda 6, it will be a Hit. I only have one gripe - what is up with a puny 220 HP , 200 Lb./Foot. Duratec?
I mean Cm'on Ford! If it had a 250 HP, 250 Lb/Foot 3.5 V6, I would buy one TODAY!
But I can't see myself driving it, because every time I'd want to "play" a bit, it will disappoint me. I think that it needs, if not a class leading HP, at least a 250, to make it a Camcord Killer. But in any case - it is gorgeous car - Thumbs way UP !
I can’t wait to go test drive it this weekend and see how it handles.
According to our X-Plan price, I can get a fully loaded SEL for $22,746 - Not bad at all

stickguy

news flash!

2z, it does drive much like a 6, so you shouldn't be disappointed.

I just get a kick that people are so worked up because a mid-size family sedan, that is perfectly adaquate with a 4 cyl., "only" has 220 HP! How will we survive!

just kidding with you. I have my own opinions on the amount of power that most people really need/use vs. what they think they need/use. 15 years ago, cars this size maybe had 130HP.

But, if you really want to see heated discussions about power, try the Lexus IS threads, especially the 250.

2zmax

Well,
I haven't driven one yet, so I can't really say much about it. But I've driven the competition, and I can say that out of the Camcordniss I prefer the 3.5 VQ, Altima, because it has lot's more power, and it feels quicker. Now if Fusion had that much power, and the rest of its’ goodies - it Would be PERFECT. But I guess nothing is perfect.
Oh well, maybe when Ford puts 3.5 into the Fusion in 07, it will really be a best selling mid size sedan. ( I hope)

nitromax

But I can't see myself driving it, because every time I'd want to "play" a bit, it will disappoint me. I think that it needs, if not a class leading HP, at least a 250, to make it a Camcord Killer. But in any case - it is gorgeous car - Thumbs way UP !

Camcord didn't get popular because of their HP. They got popular because of thier reliability. So dumping a bigger engine in it will make it better?

Were you around in the 80's when the HP wars between Mustangs and Iroc Z-28s were flirting with 210 HP using 8 cyl engines? I'm guessing no.

A V6 that puts out 220 HP/200 TQ is more than enough for a car.

stickguy

and not to beat a dead horse, but the majority of CamCordImas are actually sold as 4 cyl. Something like 75-80%?

Always remember that most of the regulars the post here are really outliers in the automotive spectrum. We want 300hp AWD 6 speed manual quasie-rally cars for carting the kids around, but most people buy 4 cyl AT Camry LE or Accord LX.

I do recall that the Altima suffers from the bane of the FWD V6- torque steer. Too much power though the front end can be detrimental to balance and control.

john_324

"Always remember that most of the regulars the post here are really outliers in the automotive spectrum. We want 300hp AWD 6 speed manual quasie-rally cars for carting the kids around, but most people buy 4 cyl AT Camry LE or Accord LX."

Amen to that. You think it's skewed here, try the "enthusiast" boards...the Mustang boards I frequent are full of people who think a 260-300 HP Mustang is "seriously underpowered"... :surprise:

nvbanker

Not in the beginning.... when the FWD Diesel came out, you could be right, grbeck.

jefferyg

Hey, I graduated from high school in 88, and I remember well the mustangs and Iroc Z's. They were the cars that everyone wanted. The late 80's Mustangs with around 225 hp were some of the quickest cars I've ever been in. Even the older ones were fun cars. One of my friends had an 83 Mustang GT. It believe it was only 190 hp, but with positive traction and a very light rearend it was blast to drive - a great donut car. I haven't driven one of the new Mustangs. I love the looks of it, but it doesn't quite have that boy-toy appeal that the 80's Mustangs had.

The thing that is sad to me about the whole hp issue is that there is no legal way to enjoy it without paying out the nose for use of a track somewhere. So what if you have 500 hp under the hood if you can't utilize it. What we need is an American Autobahn! :shades:

nvbanker

"The thing that is sad to me about the whole hp issue is that there is no legal way to enjoy it without paying out the nose for use of a track somewhere. So what if you have 500 hp under the hood if you can't utilize it."

You are SO right, jefferyg - which is exactly why I don't get the need for a 500hp AMG Mercedes, or the new Lexus, etc. What's the point of it all, when gas is so expensive right now.

grbeck

The Mustang has always been carried by the less powerful models (for the modern version, the V-6s).

When the Mustang first came out, even the top-of-the-line V-8 wasn't anything to get excited about in the performance department - at least, not compared to a Pontiac GTO, or even an Olds 442. (I'm not talking about the Shelby models - I mean the stock Mustangs that could be ordered directly from Ford and sold through any Ford dealer.)

But that didn't stop Mustangs from flying out the door. Most of them were equipped with the straight six or mild-mannered V-8. That was why the car was such a success in the first place - it was easy to drive (and insure) but LOOKED sporty and more expensive than it really was.

And has anyone noticed that, through the years, the Mustang has been beat up regularly for not offering the raw performance of its chief competitors - Hemi 'Cuda, Camaro Z-28, GTO, IROC Z, Trans Am - and has managed to outlive them all? (Well, the GTO is back, but judging by the sales figures, it might as well be dead.)

What makes the Mustang feasible isn't the hot V-8 version - it's the mild-mannered V-6 models that are sold to women and middle-aged couples (I'm amazed at how many 40- and 50-something couples I see in Mustang convertibles).

chuck1959

I have a friend that sells Mercedes and he tells me the he's sells a AMG Mercedes it's more of a "macho thing" more than anything else.

"What's the point of it all, when gas is so expensive right now."
The people that buy IE: a AMG Mercedes, don't care about gas prices, as they can afford the high gas prices anyway.

nvbanker

"The people that buy IE: a AMG Mercedes, don't care about gas prices, as they can afford the high gas prices anyway."

So can I, chuck, but I don't like it - that's why I'm driving a sedan now mostly, and the Navigator is sitting around rusting.... Maybe I have more conscience than others....

chuck1959

I understand you point. I admire you having more a conscience than others and putting up the Navigator.. No one should tolerate these high gas prices, rather you can afford them or not.

2zmax

The topic should be " What is wrong with women?"
Took my wife to the dealer to look at the new Fusion - they had the silver SEL with leather, stability and comfort package (or whatever it's called). It looked awesome, and what did she say? : "It's hideous!" My heart dropped! Are you kidding me?, this comes from a woman that says that the Cadillac CTS is gorgeous! And Fusion is NOT?
I am so pissed off! I was hoping to impress her with its’ driving capabilities, but she refused to even sit in it! Damn It!
When does the AWD, 3.5 V6 come out, does anyone know?
I am so frustrated :mad:
Just venting

stickguy

well, my wifes only comment 9when I showed her a picture, before even seeing it in person) was "but it's a Ford". And she is pretty oblivious to anything car related, but I guess is swayed by advertising!

chuck1959

Surely you not going to let the wife discourage you from buying it? :confuse: By the way how car savvy is she? IMO it does look awesome the CTC is the hidous one.

mschmal

People will shell out $45,000 + for an F-150 Lariet or Expedition, but Ford has totally lost its car credibility. Mustang was round one, lets hope Fusion continues to make a point that Ford is back

stickguy

for me, but it's always nice to know what to expect when I get it home!

2zmax

I wish I made all the decision around here, but we have total democracy
and I cannot veto anything as my wife has more veto power than I do (you know what I mean )
I think that Fusion is much better looking than the CTS, especially with that 22k+ sticker on the window, vs. the 36k on the Caddy.
I think that my wife is not very car savvy, as she does not understand that name has nothing to do with quality anymore. She still perceives ford to be a poor quality and reliability car. But she likes the new Mustang - go Figure. :confuse:
But the real problem is - we have a new born, and she needs all kinds of room for her stuff, so my wife said that we are keeping the Pathfinder, and not getting a car.
I hate SUV's, because they are so bulky, and handle like crap. I was day-dreaming and picturing myself driving in a new, silver Fusion :sick:
I guess, I'll have to devise a good strategy on how to convince my wife to get a Fusion.
Any pointers anyone ?

chuck1959

Well all I can say and I don't mean to be offensive, although it coming off that way.
Who is wearing the pants in the family? Does she work? It just makes me cringe to no end, when I hear a man say "my wife won't let me...."The way to convince your wife? Tell her you going to buy it and that's it. Let her keep the Pathfinder. NO I don't know what you mean why you say your wife has more veto power. Isn't a marriage supposed to be 50-50. Mine is and she is happy about that. I drive the car I want and she drives the one she wants to. Even though she drives a Mercedes and I a Kia. Which we BOTH pay for TOGETHER along with everything else.

nvbanker

Don't try to understand what can't be explained, 2z..... I feel your pain. My wife selects a car based upon the color, and the radio, and that's it. There is no way to explain women's preferences. They like what they like.

john_324

I love how this current turn of conversation seems the confirm another stereotype...that it's pretty much all guys here. No angry female refutations of the current topic as of yet...

I've told my girlfriend about the forums, but she can't for the life of her understand why I would want to spend time talking with people I don't know about cars I don't own... :P

nippononly

west coast is last when it comes to new-model intros from the domestics. My local dealer STILL doesn't have a Fusion. I am very curious to see it in person.

igor2

hey just wait a little and get the Edge when it comes out in a year...

you get the mix of both world.. a SUV /Wagon space and car based handling...

or check out the Mazda5... it's a van with Mazda6 heart.

Igor

nvbanker

"I've told my girlfriend about the forums, but she can't for the life of her understand why I would want to spend time talking with people I don't know about cars I don't own..."

LOL!! So well put, john! My wife says exactly the same thing, but after 30 years with me, she has resigned herself to the fact that I'm a hopeless car guy. She understands it not one bit more though....

stickguy

mine thinks it is odd too, but at least she knows where I am at night. Plus, it is cheaper than actually buying one.

nvbanker

"but at least she knows where I am at night."

He He - yes, my wife calls it "Carnography".....and you're right, it does beat buying a new one, although I do that often enough....

hpmctorque

Detroit Free Press, November 2, 2005

BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

"In contrast to terrible industry-wide auto sales last month -- the worst October in 13 years -- the Ford Fusion sedan appears to be a runaway hit.

So much so that Ford Motor Co. is comparing the reasonably priced, nicely styled midsize sedan to the heart-pounding Ford Mustang.

"I believe the Fusion has the potential to take the baton from the Mustang as this year's hottest car in the industry," George Pipas, Ford's U.S. sales analysis manager, said Tuesday.

Comparing the new Fusion to the 41-year-old Mustang nameplate seems brave, especially after only one month of sales. But the fact Ford is talking about both cars in the same breath speaks to its high expectations for the Fusion...

"Sometimes you can just feel it," (George) Pipas said. "These cars couldn't arrive at a better time as consumers shop for value and fuel economy. But I guess it doesn't hurt that these cars are stylish, too...

Pipas said the company thought it would sell 2,700 of the vehicles in October. But Ford sold almost 4,100 -- 50% more than expected.

Ford's boasting about the Fusion doesn't appear to be just corporate hype, either.

'The Fusion is going to be the 300C for Ford,' Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing Research in Bandon, Ore., predicted, referring to the hit Chrysler had with its full-size sedan last year. 'This was essential for them to do this.' "

stickguy

It's simple. I decided I liked it, and figured to wait a few months for supply to pile up and year end rebates to arrive. So of course it will be the hottest thing in years and sell without big rebates and discounts.

Your thanks are enough, but if Ford would like to send a GT over as a little token of their appreciation, I will promise to take good care of it.

6spdtl

If the best Ford can offer for a car is a rebadged Mazda 6 their future is bleak indeed. The fusion is a very good competitive car, it just ain't a Ford. It simply shows that Ford doesn't have what it takes to engineer, develop and market a competitve, modern automobile. It may sell, but it's simply putting a figer in a dike that is leaking like a sieve. Ford and GM seem unable to come up with the goods to survive in the future. The target is simple engineer and build a car that is as good if not better than a Honda Accord for the same if not slightly lower price! Hyundai got the message and their latest effort is a very auspicious beginning, now its time for the big three to jump in the bandwagon. Moaning about legacy costs is BS, screw the bean counters and put some creative engineers to work. I'd fire the entire accounting section that oversees product development and put an engineer in charge, then I would fire every engineer that has worked for the big three for more than 20 years since they are probably so tainted by the big three mentality that they are probably useless anyway!

stickguy

you can still get it. It's called the taurus.