Judging by the way the Fusion sold in it's first month, I'm not so sure selling repackaged Mazdas is a bad idea. I mean, the Escape was a big hit and a large part of that car's development came from Mazda. Copy-catting Mazdas could be the way to earn some cash while they get things turned around.
The time for pride is over. Despite gains from the Fusion, Ford sales dropped more than 20% as soon as they cut back on incentives. They should be on their knees, begging for Mazda's help.
Ford owns a controlling interest in Mazda, and I believe the Mazda 6 platform was jointly developed with the European Ford Mondeo. It's not like Mazda developed the 6 in a vacuum, and then Ford came along and simply rebadged it. The Fusion is heavily revised from the 6, and addresses some of it's shortcomings, such as cramped rear seat room.
And you'd be bankrupt in a month. You simply can't "screw legacy costs, and fire the accounting staff", though it would be a nice thought - it's not practical or possible. Secondly, there is no way Ford or GM or Chrysler can build a car like the Honda Accord from the ground up clean, with labor costs the way they are, and sell it for less than the Honda. Can't be done. Math is math, you do it, won't work.
Thirdly - Ford is a global company, owing companies and technology all over the world. If I were a stockholder, and I'm not, I'd be very upset if they developed 8 completely different platforms for a mid size car, when one would do, and make more profit. It's only smart to choose the best one, and leverage it. That's what smart business does, no matter the industry - electronics, toys, air-conditioners (one basic unit now sells under 7 brands in the US), light bulbs, or cars. And the company that can do that, survives. The only reason Toyota doesn't do it much, is they until recently bought a chunk of Subaru, they didn't have any other technology to leverage. But if they did do it, they would be hailed as the most brilliant company on the planet.
That's awfully funny, The G6 is pretty comparable to a Accord sold at $26K next year with the arival of a GTX model it will "gut" the accord from the "tummy up"
I think Ford is in a better off situation then Honda. They have alot more resources than them. They have R&D from all their newly acquired partners like Volvo, Jaguar, and Land Rover etc etc. :shades:
But the G6 doesn't sell! It sells 4x worse than the Grand Am it replaced, which was 20 years old. No way the G6 even comes close to the Accord in refinement or long term reliability and endurance. Other than that little fact, I agree with your statement.
Well if they aren't selling so well, then why do GM dealers because they can't get em' fast enough ??????.....My mom had to wait 13 weeks to finally get hers. She had the only GTP Coupe that is Blue in Grand Rapids, Michigan. A city with approx. 600K people. Her dealership is also one of the biggest selling high volume GM dealers in the U.S. formly was #1 Olds dealer in the U.S. If Grand can't get em' nobody can.
The Fusion is going to be a hit. They just need to make a high horsepower version !
The Explorer is going to hang on to it's crown of being #1
Can't find a G6??? No problem, just look over at the Budget, Alamo or National Parking lots and you'll find one for sure. Everywhere I go, I see them for rent. I drove one several times and it is pretty nice, and peppy. But will I buy one - No sir! Now Fusion - it's another story. I hope that Ford has enough sense not to flood the rental fleets with low end Fusions. I think that most recent models from Ford i.e. Mustang, Explorer, Fusion are big hits and are doing very well. Now if Ford could put a 3.5L V6 with 250 HP in the Ford 500 AWD, it will be a Camcord killer, Move aside Maxima and Avalon, here comes a 500. I really like what Ford has done recently, and I wish that GM started to do the same.
Well you obviously weren't driving a GTP G6. They are the ones that have been hard to get. I'll race you for titles. I'll take my moms G6 GTP up against you fusion anyday. that aside, I hope the fusion is a sales success. :P
That is exactly the mind set that is driving them bankrupt, can't be done philosophy. They can build a corvette tha performs like a ferrari for half the cost, but they can't build a decent car for the same price as their rivals. Its not the legacy costs (that is only a part of their dilema) the dilema is that the big three are atherosclerotic incompetent megacorporations, they are companies that for decades have made more money financing cars rather than building them. They have suffered from market myopia and arrogant self indulgence. How smart is it to base all your income on gas hogs (they went from gas hog cars to gas hog trucks) while the rest of the world has been building smaller, more efficient cars for decades all the while, they essentially abandoned the car market. How bright is that in a country that imports half of all the gas those cars need to run? It's not, its just plain stupid and very bad buisness desicion making all the way from the top. Now, all of a sudden, they find that they have to come up with technology which other manufacturers (specifically Honda) has had for decades and which now they produce for peanuts! The outlays to catch up in technology and manufacturing are what make it impossible for them to catch up with honda, or toyota for that matter, the legacy costs simply dig their hole deeper. Due to institutional stupidity and ineptitude they simply cannot afford the engineering, tooling and production of what asian automakers consider mature technology. Simple example, while honda is building the third generation of multivalve variable timing technology fo their cheapest cars, no domestic manufacturer offers it in their "people" cars. Only cadillac offers a variable multivalve system and that system is a dinosaur compares to the engine tecnology in the chepest honda civic! That is not to legacy costs, its due to a philosophjy that long ago gave up engineering and building cars to simply make money selling crap to a captive market. The examples are obvious Hondas CEO was an engineer that started in the company greasing and designing camshafts, Ford's CEO is some rich grandchild ninny that can't tell a camshaft from a muffler, reality doesn't get any plainer than that. So its time they stop complaining about "legacy" costs they are just looking for a taxpayer bailout.
The hotrod versions of ANY family car are hard to find, but mostly because companies don't make a lot of them to start with; there's just not a lot of demand.
In this segment, it's the success of the middle-of-the-line models that spell failure or success for the vehicle.
Biggest problem with the Fusion in my mind is no manual transmission offered on the V6. But I know I'm the one out of touch with the market, as most people want automatics these days...
I think he actually is a car nut of some sort, so that is a good sign. It's GM that doesn't have oneone interested in cars (at least not in the upper ranks!).
As to the Fusion, if Ford decides that a MT V6 is viable, they could fire it up pretty quick. The car is already set up for a stick, and the drivetrain already is used by mazda, so it shouldn't take too long to put it together.
I actually feel much better about Ford's future today then a few years ago, just based on the product. I like the 500, and think it will find it's stride as a late bloomer, since it is a nice package. The MMC refresh and 3.5l engine (aka the holy grail), should give it a nice kick in the pants. The Fusion I think will also do well.
Mustang is fine. If they can get an updated Focus soon, they would actually have a very strong car lineup, although they will need to replace the Freestyle 9Fusion X-over wagon?), since they need some kind of people mover to replace the Style and taurus wagon.
Ditto. I think they've improved their position significantly. But as good as some of the new vehicles are (F-150, Fusion, Mustang, etc.), they're also floundering in several areas.
Got any minivans? Hello...?
The Escape, which has been a very good vehicle for them, is now six years old and there's no real news regarding a replacement.
They're still carrying deadweight in the form of Lincoln and Mercury.
In recent years, has any individual, not employed by Hertz, purchased a Ranger?
And while a number of their cars are "good", there's nothing out there I would consider cutting edge. The most cutting edge product they've got is the Escape HEV, which is an aging platform using a modified version of somebody else's ideas.
They're treading water instead of drowning. But they're still all wet and not going anywhere.
isn't the key IMO, or at least isn't what the vast majority of buyers care about. It is nice to have something to get buzz about though.
Yeah, the escape is due for an update (although it still seems to sell well). The Ranger needed to be replaced 5 years ago. Actually, I think they should keep it, and add a new nid-size model (ala Taco or Dakota), so something for everyone.
The Freestar has been DOA for a while. I thought they were working on a replacement based on the 6/Fusion chassis. If so, they need it ASAP. Also something to replace the Freestyle.
How about an expanded Escape to cover the Freestyle slot, and a smaller Xover (something based off the Focus like the C-Maxx or whatever they call it) to slot in below it.
Hey, if nothing else, I have lots of ideas. Ford just needs to envision what the model mix needs to be, and then figure out how to get there. Using the Fusion to spawn some mid/large size people movers sounds good, and the new Focus to spawn something smaller.
I just think they have some good platforms now (here or in Europoe), and a small window to aggressively leverage them to get new porduct in the showroom. If they can move fast enough and make the right prognosis', they could have a very strong full range lineup in a couple of years.
I would concentrate on getting the Ford brand revitalized before spending too much time worrying about scrapping LM, as long as they keep some fresh product over there too. Merc. seems to be stable 9assuming the stuff they have sells OK), the new Aviator should help, but they do need to figure out what the heck to give Lincoln.
Somehow, I just root for Ford to get it right, but could care less about GM. That Bill Ford guy just seems nice I guess!
I have been wondering why Ford hasn't been very successful in the FWD min-van market. I remember the days in the 70's when Ford was a leader in offering stations wagons.....the had a station wagon across the line-up. I don't know why they didn't have the same kind of success with the FWD mini-van. Just to clearify, IMO the Aerostar did not compete with the other FWD mini vans. To me they were just smaller Econolines. Same as the Astro.
Ford's CEO is some rich grandchild ninny that can't tell a camshaft from a muffler
Umm, not true. But your anti-domestic rant was going really well until then.
And as far as using the Mazda 6 platform for the Fusion, that does not mean that Mazda made the Fusion. That shows a lack of knowledge of platform engineering. Ford engineers put a whole lot of work into that car and that work is garnering much praise.
good points.. but I disagree with the Mercury/Lincoln statement..
they are not deadweight. Maybe Mercury is hard to understand, but only until you reazliethat stuid americans will not pay for Ford what they would for a toyota. just because it's a ford and it'sa Toyota. as a result, ford has to carry some cheapness in it, to keep price adnvantage. Mercury then is the car to provide the comparable price to Toyota, becuase it feels a little exclusive. It is a market deformation (as I mentioned previously) because cars like ford, or Nissan or any other that is not Honda./toyota have to be BETTER AND CHEAPER - that gives CamCord undue advantage.
Lincoln is of course easy to justify. Look a Zphyr and yo une none of Fusion.. it's tehe same thing as Acura, Infinity, Chrysler, Cadillac, Lexus, etc etc..
I've been out of town for a few days and I hate I missed this discussion. Every time my wife "catches me" :mad: on Edmunds or any other "car" site, she ALWAYS rolls her eyes and says, "You're on that website again?!"
They really never will understand.
But living in the South as I do, I will offer all you guys one of our favorite expressions: "IF MAMA AIN'T HAPPY, AIN'T NOBODY HAPPY!" :P :shades:
Just trying to make a point, car companies should be headed by engineers that have made their mark by toiling in the trenches. Yep I'm a Honda guy but I've owned every brand (1GM 2 Fords). The lessons I garnered from owning domestic cars were taken to heart, underperforming, reliability nightmares. I would not buy a big three car under any circumstances whatsoever. The other thing we should not forget is that most Hondas are "american" cars, they are designed and built here by good ol' boys earning fair wages with very nice bennies.
Bill Ford made a little speech some time back about how the future of the Mercury brand was bright and full of models that were NOT just rebadged Fords. And before any time had passed, they made the announcement that Mercury would get the rebadged Fusion, AKA Milan, as its next exciting new model.
The unspoken addendum on varmint's relevance test of LM is "what is the real potential of these brands to pull in profits in the future?" The answer in Mercury's case is zero. I could see keeping it around to be the fleet sales brand for Ford - manufacturing last-gen models like the Sable ad infinitum to make tiny-profit volume sales while protecting the image of Ford's car line-up. Apart from that, Mercury is death warmed over, so why keep warming over death?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Wasn't the Marauder supposed to be the proof that this was the start of the "new" Mercury? That went well... :mad:
I've always thought Ford should have just offered the Marauder package continually as a "Crown Vic Cobra" or something like that, rather than waste it on short-lived (and unnoticed) Mercury project.
Varmit: Your run down on Fords good/bad points are correct in my mind. I'm assuming Bill Ford will tackle these problems as well if not better than anyone else could.Ford needs a few more winners in its lineup. Your statement on the Escape HEV is a good example of a Ford success that really isn't much of a "Ford" success at all. Ford Minivans & the Freestyle are much ado about nothing it seems to me. C'mon Bill Ford, show us something that will WoW us and fit into the mainstream as a segment leader. Bill C.
The other thing we should not forget is that most Hondas are "american" cars, they are designed and built here by good ol' boys earning fair wages with very nice bennies.
From what I recall, foreign cars are "assembled" in the US by Americans, but the real money in cars is their tooling which is made in the original country. For instance, the water pump on your Honda is not designed and built in the US...it's built in Japan and bolted onto the car by an American. Big difference.
Just about. But the big thing it's missing is the '98 Mustang Cobra 4.6l DOHC engine that the Marauder had. I believe the LX Sport has a slightly more powerful version of the 4.6l SOHC engine that's in the standard CV.
If Ford did it, it could be an SVT version. A "Crown Victoria Cobra" would probably sell decently, not be very expensive to produce and would give Ford a quick competitor to the Dodge Charger upper levels (though knowing Ford, not nearly enough to match the firebreathing Charger SRT-8, but what can you do...)
The other thing we should not forget is that most Hondas are "american" cars, they are designed and built here by good ol' boys earning fair wages with very nice bennies.
Weeelllll, some models (not most) are certainly designed and assembled here, but most of the parts are still coming from Japan. And although I agree it's a global market and these arguments are somewhat moot, the domestics employ far more people in the US and a greater percentage of their car parts are made from US manufacturers.
And while you had bad experiences with domestics in the past, today's world is a whole 'nother ball game. Frankly, I'd say these days you're as likely to have a problem with a new Toyota design as you are with a new Ford design. IMHO, of course.
The imports have plenty of design studios here in NA, along with crash test facilities, engine manufacturing plants, and they employ plenty of NA-based suppliers.
At the same time, the domestics use plenty of parts made in Mexico, the UK, and other parts of the world.
As for which group to support, it looks like the imports are here to stay. And they are the only companies boosting the US auto industry. If the past decade has taught us anything it's that we cannot depend on the Big 3 to run this industry on their own.
I think Bill Ford is a car "nut" maybe, but I don't think he know how to build -em, just drive -em. Bill Lutz at GM is a car guy, originally from Ford, coincidentally, then Chrysler, now GM. (Can't hole a job, evidently :P ). But it takes more than that to compete these days against the Japanese that we gave state of the art technology to after WWII, while our own factories were 50 years old - and the Chinese with low labor costs. And our big corporations suffer greatly from their own bigness. Toyota is starting to suffer a little from the same syndrome now, interestingly enough.
"Wasn't the Marauder supposed to be the proof that this was the start of the "new" Mercury?"
Not really. It was a cheap way to get another product on the showroom floor that they thought there was a decent market for. The Marauder was more of a dressed up Police Interceptor than a CV LX. But it was offered initially only in PD Black, then finally in Highway Patrol Blue and finally Silver. No variants were available, and it was fast - but not THAT fast. Turned out the market for it was limited, especially with the limited options available. It cost Ford nothing to make though, and probably made them a buck or two. Selling 2000 of them would make money. I'm sure they did a lot more of them than that. Actually, I was surprised it didn't do better. With about 50 more hp - it probably would have. BUt then again, the GTO is a bomb, and it's fast.
In my opinion if I buy a honda and its is assembled here(north america) I am helping the american economy. If a buy a Honda that is made in Japan I am not however helping the american economy here. Suppose I buy a Ford that is made in Mexico I am still helping the american economy. As long as a Japanese branded car is made in America or I buy a Ford no matter where its made I am again helping the ecnonomy because Ford is an american car company. Thats my position.
Engineers are the people that created the $1,000 toilet for the Air Force and the $80 Hammer.
Think back to the way Word Perfect worked in the old days with all those stupid key commands. That program was designed by computer ENGINEERS who made it in a way that was convenient for them.
Look at the keyboard you type on. Notice how INEFFICIENTLY the keys are laid out with the keys that are used the most not placed in the home row? Engineers again.
My dad always said "before I went to school, I couldn't even spell engineer, now I are one."
A perfect example of an Engineer Designed car is the Ford Five Hundred. The Engineers told the Designers what kind of package they had to work with and what constraints they had to meet.
Only a complete fool would measure Ford Motor Company by a car. FMC is TRUCKS! It might be cars to some extent one day but never ever will cars be as important to this company as TRUCKS.
Some of you might have noticed that VW now has an SUV. Their market researchers found that when people left the VW brand it was to buy either a BMW or a Ford Truck.
You want to see the real Ford, go take a ride in that tin can called the Honda Pilot then go ride in a 2006 Ford Explorer.
As for Pickups? I say PLEASE! The so called Titan has a max payload of 1,587. You can get an F-150 with a max payload of 3000! The Nissan is even more of a joke because you can get a Ford Ranger with a payload capacity of 1680 pounds.
"As for Pickups? I say PLEASE! The so called Titan has a max payload of 1,587. You can get an F-150 with a max payload of 3000! The Nissan is even more of a joke because you can get a Ford Ranger with a payload capacity of 1680 pounds."
Give us your opinion on the Honda Ridgeline? Personally, I can't stop laughing - but people are buying them. Which trucks did they own before? Rangers? I wonder, that Ranger is so darn out of date now. Still a great little truck, but very out of date.
As long as a Japanese branded car is made in America or I buy a Ford no matter where its made I am again helping the ecnonomy because Ford is an american car company. Thats my position.
How much of a cars cost is actually due to manual assembly by human assemblers?
Wow thanks for that message. The Titan only has a max payload of 1,587???? What are they thinking??!!
The Ridgeline is a big JOKE! What were they thinking??!! Frankly I was disappointed in Honda for that one. How care they call it a "truck."
As far as the Ranger...YES VERY outdated, but also very GOOD DEALS! I should know I just bought one. I got a full tilt Ranger stickered at 19,000 bucks for a little over 15 grand!! That NO employee discount!
The GT is outsourced already. Plus, lots of modules are built by suppliers, so in some ways the makers become assemblers instead. Just put the parts together and ship em out.
mschmal: Only a complete fool would measure Ford Motor Company by a car. FMC is TRUCKS! It might be cars to some extent one day but never ever will cars be as important to this company as TRUCKS.
But historically, trucks were the sideshow, and cars received the main emphasis at Ford. The dominance of trucks is a fairly recent phenomenon.
Plus, 50 percent of the market still wants a car, so competing in half of the market with half-hearted entries isn't the path to success for a full-line manufacturer.
mschmal: You want to see the real Ford, go take a ride in that tin can called the Honda Pilot then go ride in a 2006 Ford Explorer.
And exactly how many 2006 Explorers is Ford selling without heavy incentives these days? Judging by the television ads I see, I'd say...zero. Honda, meanwhile, is still moving Civics and Accords (not to mention various Acuras) without many direct-to-customer rebates and incentives. Honda doesn't depend on the Pilot for profits to the extent that Ford depends on the Explorer
I have nothing against Ford trucks. If I wanted a truck or an SUV, I'd get a Ford F-150 or an Explorer, respectively.
But, that's the problem...I don't want a truck or an SUV. And neither do lots of other people I know with fluctuating gas prices.
Ford needs great passenger cars, too. The Fusion is a start, and the Focus still has lots going for it now that the quality demons have been exorcised, although Ford needs to get a new one out ASAP to remain competitive. The Five Hundred needs a better engine to bring it to life, along with a facelift.
The big problem is that Toyota and Honda have their passenger-car acts together NOW, and Hyundai is coming up fast.
I have to agree with GRBECK Ford does need to get their "passenger car" act together. The Fusion is great, and I think it will be a hit. But there are so many cars out there in that segment; it is a very tight market. Ford need to put emphasis on reliability, by boosting warranty and give their cars an edge in power as well. Speaking for myself - I would rather buy a Subaru Legacy GT with AWD and 250 HP, vs the Fusion, even if it is more expensive. Now if Ford gave Fusion a 250+ HP and AWD, I'd be a first in line to get one. Same goes for Ford 500. It desperately needs more power, a facelift and 70,000 mi warranty to go with that CVT, and new 3.5L.
The Fusion is likely to be a hit... not because it will be a sales and profits dynamo... rather it should restore the buyer's faith in the brand. It doesn't have to be the number 1 car in the market to achieve that.
' I would rather buy a Subaru Legacy GT with AWD and 250 HP, vs the Fusion, even if it is more expensive. Same goes for Ford 500. It desperately needs more power"
Have to disagree with ya on this. I have sold a few Subarus, and still fail to see the big deal. But if you've ever driven a Forester, how can you say the 500 desperately needs more power? The 500 is no Mustang - that's for sure, but neither is the Crown Vic - which only has 20 hp more, and nobody complains about the power. I wouldn't mind the 3.5L going in - but I really think it's fine as it is. In fact, if the new 3.5L didn't produce any more power or torque than the 3.0L does, I'll bet people would think the car was way faster with the 3.5L, if they didn't know the output was the same. In short, Ithink it's all in their heads.
in that I thought trucks were HIGH PROFIT vehicles for Ford because they stay the same from year to year, except for the 2004 major redesign of the F150, but the previous F150 was easily over 10 years old...they recoup their costs like they do on the Grand Marquis/Crown Vic/Town Car, very high margin vehicles...yes???...no???...
As far as the Titan with a payload of 1587, I often wonder just how many sales are to folks who will actually put over 1000 pounds in the truck bed...so payload may not be as important as "perceived quality" in the import, same with Nissan's passenger cars...so to compare the Titan to F150 may not make sense, since the F150 is a real work truck, and my suspicion tells me that the Titan may never be as overloaded and an F150 in a construction job...IMO
"I have sold a few Subarus, and still fail to see the big deal. But if you've ever driven a Forester, how can you say the 500 desperately needs more power"
You obviously didn't drive the Forrester XT did ya? And neither the Legacy GT ,I assume, otherwise you would not be making these comments. The 500 needs all the power it can get, because without it - it is just another boring family sedan. The 3.5 should have at least 250 HP, or it will stay behind the [non-permissible content removed]. I don't know about you, but when I merge on a Highway or pass on a two-lane in a passing zone - I NEED all the power I can get, and it happens that I cannot get it from the 500. It's too heavy and bulky for the small 3.0L. As far as the Fusion is concerned - it is posing to be a sporty mid size sedan, but the engine fails to deliver the amount of sporty-ness that one would expect from a car that handles so well otherwise.
how things change. In 2001 the Escape with that same 3.0 Duratec was considered spry, with about the same weight as the Five Hundred, something like 10 less hp in that iteration, and a higher profile to contend with. Now car editors are calling the Five Hundred "slow" with this engine. Those Escape reviews were only 4 years ago.
Even in a 3500-pound sedan, 200+ hp is enough to do the job, even in freeway merging. I know the 3.5 is coming for this model. I would like to see them keep the 3.0 as the base engine, and improve its fuel economy A LOT, with the 3.5 as the optional engine for all you bahn-burners out there...
Won't happen though. Impala's base engine is sure to be the 240 hp 3.9 in a year or two (which has crap fuel economy, I do better in my 4Runner), so Ford has to keep up in "the race", I guess.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The step in on the throttle makes it seem alot faster than it may really be.
My major gripe about the 3.0 in the 500 is that when you get into it, it makes sounds of distress. I think this sound of being wrung out like a dish rag is what people are complaining about. The CVT makes it even worse cause the RPMs shoot up like motorcycle.
The 3.0 Duratec is as developed as it can get. So the 3.5 is due.
If you were to drive an Escape with the 2.3L and the Escape with the 3.0 Duratec, you would definitely feel that the 3.0L is faster. But the 2.3 sounds so much smoother and never sounds like its having its guts thrashed. The 3.0 was cutting edge in 1996...but that is now 10 years ago.
"The step in on the throttle makes it seem alot faster than it may really be."
The engine makes a lot of noise, which may give the impression that it's going quite fast... However, a RAV4 or CR-V with a manual transmission will dust the V6 in a sprint. Even with an automatic, these four bangers will give it a run for it's money.
I believe the reason why the Escape earned such a solid reputation for the 3.0 is simply that it was first with both a decent engine and decent-sized body. It was a nice package back in 2001.
I don't think throwing cubic inches at the problem is necessarily the solution, though. They need to step up to the plate with better engines, not bigger engines. Their VVT systems are pretty basic and half the models don't have one. How many Fords have DBW? Some companies (notably Subaru) have increased EPA fuel economy ratings significantly when tuning DBW.
It's not a solution for the Five Hundred, but Ford needs a respectable I4. For cars like the Fusion. Holes like that need to be filled.
Comments
The time for pride is over. Despite gains from the Fusion, Ford sales dropped more than 20% as soon as they cut back on incentives. They should be on their knees, begging for Mazda's help.
Thirdly - Ford is a global company, owing companies and technology all over the world. If I were a stockholder, and I'm not, I'd be very upset if they developed 8 completely different platforms for a mid size car, when one would do, and make more profit. It's only smart to choose the best one, and leverage it. That's what smart business does, no matter the industry - electronics, toys, air-conditioners (one basic unit now sells under 7 brands in the US), light bulbs, or cars. And the company that can do that, survives. The only reason Toyota doesn't do it much, is they until recently bought a chunk of Subaru, they didn't have any other technology to leverage. But if they did do it, they would be hailed as the most brilliant company on the planet.
I think Ford is in a better off situation then Honda. They have alot more resources than them. They have R&D from all their newly acquired partners like Volvo, Jaguar, and Land Rover etc etc. :shades:
The Fusion is going to be a hit. They just need to make a high horsepower version !
The Explorer is going to hang on to it's crown of being #1
Rocky
Now Fusion - it's another story. I hope that Ford has enough sense not to flood the rental fleets with low end Fusions.
I think that most recent models from Ford i.e. Mustang, Explorer, Fusion are big hits and are doing very well. Now if Ford could put a 3.5L V6 with 250 HP in the Ford 500 AWD, it will be a Camcord killer, Move aside Maxima and Avalon, here comes a 500.
I really like what Ford has done recently, and I wish that GM started to do the same.
In this segment, it's the success of the middle-of-the-line models that spell failure or success for the vehicle.
Biggest problem with the Fusion in my mind is no manual transmission offered on the V6. But I know I'm the one out of touch with the market, as most people want automatics these days...
As to the Fusion, if Ford decides that a MT V6 is viable, they could fire it up pretty quick. The car is already set up for a stick, and the drivetrain already is used by mazda, so it shouldn't take too long to put it together.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Mustang is fine. If they can get an updated Focus soon, they would actually have a very strong car lineup, although they will need to replace the Freestyle 9Fusion X-over wagon?), since they need some kind of people mover to replace the Style and taurus wagon.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Got any minivans? Hello...?
The Escape, which has been a very good vehicle for them, is now six years old and there's no real news regarding a replacement.
They're still carrying deadweight in the form of Lincoln and Mercury.
In recent years, has any individual, not employed by Hertz, purchased a Ranger?
And while a number of their cars are "good", there's nothing out there I would consider cutting edge. The most cutting edge product they've got is the Escape HEV, which is an aging platform using a modified version of somebody else's ideas.
They're treading water instead of drowning. But they're still all wet and not going anywhere.
Yeah, the escape is due for an update (although it still seems to sell well). The Ranger needed to be replaced 5 years ago. Actually, I think they should keep it, and add a new nid-size model (ala Taco or Dakota), so something for everyone.
The Freestar has been DOA for a while. I thought they were working on a replacement based on the 6/Fusion chassis. If so, they need it ASAP. Also something to replace the Freestyle.
How about an expanded Escape to cover the Freestyle slot, and a smaller Xover (something based off the Focus like the C-Maxx or whatever they call it) to slot in below it.
Hey, if nothing else, I have lots of ideas. Ford just needs to envision what the model mix needs to be, and then figure out how to get there. Using the Fusion to spawn some mid/large size people movers sounds good, and the new Focus to spawn something smaller.
I just think they have some good platforms now (here or in Europoe), and a small window to aggressively leverage them to get new porduct in the showroom. If they can move fast enough and make the right prognosis', they could have a very strong full range lineup in a couple of years.
I would concentrate on getting the Ford brand revitalized before spending too much time worrying about scrapping LM, as long as they keep some fresh product over there too. Merc. seems to be stable 9assuming the stuff they have sells OK), the new Aviator should help, but they do need to figure out what the heck to give Lincoln.
Somehow, I just root for Ford to get it right, but could care less about GM. That Bill Ford guy just seems nice I guess!
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
I have been wondering why Ford hasn't been very successful in the FWD min-van market. I remember the days in the 70's when Ford was a leader in offering stations wagons.....the had a station wagon across the line-up. I don't know why they didn't have the same kind of success with the FWD mini-van. Just to clearify, IMO the Aerostar did not compete with the other FWD mini vans. To me they were just smaller Econolines. Same as the Astro.
Umm, not true. But your anti-domestic rant was going really well until then.
And as far as using the Mazda 6 platform for the Fusion, that does not mean that Mazda made the Fusion. That shows a lack of knowledge of platform engineering. Ford engineers put a whole lot of work into that car and that work is garnering much praise.
But let me guess - you own a Honda.
they are not deadweight. Maybe Mercury is hard to understand, but only until you reazliethat stuid americans will not pay for Ford what they would for a toyota. just because it's a ford and it'sa Toyota. as a result, ford has to carry some cheapness in it, to keep price adnvantage. Mercury then is the car to provide the comparable price to Toyota, becuase it feels a little exclusive. It is a market deformation (as I mentioned previously) because cars like ford, or Nissan or any other that is not Honda./toyota have to be BETTER AND CHEAPER - that gives CamCord undue advantage.
Lincoln is of course easy to justify. Look a Zphyr and yo une none of Fusion.. it's tehe same thing as Acura, Infinity, Chrysler, Cadillac, Lexus, etc etc..
Igor
They really never will understand.
But living in the South as I do, I will offer all you guys one of our favorite expressions: "IF MAMA AIN'T HAPPY, AIN'T NOBODY HAPPY!"
The unspoken addendum on varmint's relevance test of LM is "what is the real potential of these brands to pull in profits in the future?" The answer in Mercury's case is zero. I could see keeping it around to be the fleet sales brand for Ford - manufacturing last-gen models like the Sable ad infinitum to make tiny-profit volume sales while protecting the image of Ford's car line-up. Apart from that, Mercury is death warmed over, so why keep warming over death?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've always thought Ford should have just offered the Marauder package continually as a "Crown Vic Cobra" or something like that, rather than waste it on short-lived (and unnoticed) Mercury project.
Your statement on the Escape HEV is a good example of a Ford success that really isn't much of a "Ford" success at all. Ford Minivans & the Freestyle are much ado about nothing it seems to me. C'mon Bill Ford, show us something that will WoW us and fit into the mainstream as a segment leader. Bill C.
From what I recall, foreign cars are "assembled" in the US by Americans, but the real money in cars is their tooling which is made in the original country. For instance, the water pump on your Honda is not designed and built in the US...it's built in Japan and bolted onto the car by an American.
Big difference.
If Ford did it, it could be an SVT version. A "Crown Victoria Cobra" would probably sell decently, not be very expensive to produce and would give Ford a quick competitor to the Dodge Charger upper levels (though knowing Ford, not nearly enough to match the firebreathing Charger SRT-8, but what can you do...)
Weeelllll, some models (not most) are certainly designed and assembled here, but most of the parts are still coming from Japan. And although I agree it's a global market and these arguments are somewhat moot, the domestics employ far more people in the US and a greater percentage of their car parts are made from US manufacturers.
And while you had bad experiences with domestics in the past, today's world is a whole 'nother ball game. Frankly, I'd say these days you're as likely to have a problem with a new Toyota design as you are with a new Ford design. IMHO, of course.
At the same time, the domestics use plenty of parts made in Mexico, the UK, and other parts of the world.
As for which group to support, it looks like the imports are here to stay. And they are the only companies boosting the US auto industry. If the past decade has taught us anything it's that we cannot depend on the Big 3 to run this industry on their own.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/insiders/0511/04/C01-371851.htm
Not really. It was a cheap way to get another product on the showroom floor that they thought there was a decent market for. The Marauder was more of a dressed up Police Interceptor than a CV LX. But it was offered initially only in PD Black, then finally in Highway Patrol Blue and finally Silver. No variants were available, and it was fast - but not THAT fast. Turned out the market for it was limited, especially with the limited options available. It cost Ford nothing to make though, and probably made them a buck or two. Selling 2000 of them would make money. I'm sure they did a lot more of them than that. Actually, I was surprised it didn't do better. With about 50 more hp - it probably would have. BUt then again, the GTO is a bomb, and it's fast.
Think back to the way Word Perfect worked in the old days with all those stupid key commands. That program was designed by computer ENGINEERS who made it in a way that was convenient for them.
Look at the keyboard you type on. Notice how INEFFICIENTLY the keys are laid out with the keys that are used the most not placed in the home row? Engineers again.
My dad always said "before I went to school, I couldn't even spell engineer, now I are one."
A perfect example of an Engineer Designed car is the Ford Five Hundred. The Engineers told the Designers what kind of package they had to work with and what constraints they had to meet.
Only a complete fool would measure Ford Motor Company by a car. FMC is TRUCKS! It might be cars to some extent one day but never ever will cars be as important to this company as TRUCKS.
Some of you might have noticed that VW now has an SUV. Their market researchers found that when people left the VW brand it was to buy either a BMW or a Ford Truck.
You want to see the real Ford, go take a ride in that tin can called the Honda Pilot then go ride in a 2006 Ford Explorer.
As for Pickups? I say PLEASE! The so called Titan has a max payload of 1,587. You can get an F-150 with a max payload of 3000! The Nissan is even more of a joke because you can get a Ford Ranger with a payload capacity of 1680 pounds.
Give us your opinion on the Honda Ridgeline? Personally, I can't stop laughing - but people are buying them. Which trucks did they own before? Rangers? I wonder, that Ranger is so darn out of date now. Still a great little truck, but very out of date.
How much of a cars cost is actually due to manual assembly by human assemblers?
The Ridgeline is a big JOKE! What were they thinking??!! Frankly I was disappointed in Honda for that one. How care they call it a "truck."
As far as the Ranger...YES VERY outdated, but also very GOOD DEALS! I should know I just bought one. I got a full tilt Ranger stickered at 19,000 bucks for a little over 15 grand!! That NO employee discount!
http://www.forbes.com/home/free_forbes/2005/1114/052.html
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
But historically, trucks were the sideshow, and cars received the main emphasis at Ford. The dominance of trucks is a fairly recent phenomenon.
Plus, 50 percent of the market still wants a car, so competing in half of the market with half-hearted entries isn't the path to success for a full-line manufacturer.
mschmal: You want to see the real Ford, go take a ride in that tin can called the Honda Pilot then go ride in a 2006 Ford Explorer.
And exactly how many 2006 Explorers is Ford selling without heavy incentives these days? Judging by the television ads I see, I'd say...zero. Honda, meanwhile, is still moving Civics and Accords (not to mention various Acuras) without many direct-to-customer rebates and incentives. Honda doesn't depend on the Pilot for profits to the extent that Ford depends on the Explorer
I have nothing against Ford trucks. If I wanted a truck or an SUV, I'd get a Ford F-150 or an Explorer, respectively.
But, that's the problem...I don't want a truck or an SUV. And neither do lots of other people I know with fluctuating gas prices.
Ford needs great passenger cars, too. The Fusion is a start, and the Focus still has lots going for it now that the quality demons have been exorcised, although Ford needs to get a new one out ASAP to remain competitive. The Five Hundred needs a better engine to bring it to life, along with a facelift.
The big problem is that Toyota and Honda have their passenger-car acts together NOW, and Hyundai is coming up fast.
Ford does need to get their "passenger car" act together.
The Fusion is great, and I think it will be a hit. But there are so many cars out there in that segment; it is a very tight market.
Ford need to put emphasis on reliability, by boosting warranty and give their cars an edge in power as well.
Speaking for myself - I would rather buy a Subaru Legacy GT with AWD and 250 HP, vs the Fusion, even if it is more expensive. Now if Ford gave Fusion a 250+ HP and AWD, I'd be a first in line to get one.
Same goes for Ford 500. It desperately needs more power, a facelift and 70,000 mi warranty to go with that CVT, and new 3.5L.
Just my 2C
Have to disagree with ya on this. I have sold a few Subarus, and still fail to see the big deal. But if you've ever driven a Forester, how can you say the 500 desperately needs more power? The 500 is no Mustang - that's for sure, but neither is the Crown Vic - which only has 20 hp more, and nobody complains about the power. I wouldn't mind the 3.5L going in - but I really think it's fine as it is. In fact, if the new 3.5L didn't produce any more power or torque than the 3.0L does, I'll bet people would think the car was way faster with the 3.5L, if they didn't know the output was the same. In short, Ithink it's all in their heads.
As far as the Titan with a payload of 1587, I often wonder just how many sales are to folks who will actually put over 1000 pounds in the truck bed...so payload may not be as important as "perceived quality" in the import, same with Nissan's passenger cars...so to compare the Titan to F150 may not make sense, since the F150 is a real work truck, and my suspicion tells me that the Titan may never be as overloaded and an F150 in a construction job...IMO
You obviously didn't drive the Forrester XT did ya?
And neither the Legacy GT ,I assume, otherwise you would not be making these comments.
The 500 needs all the power it can get, because without it - it is just another boring family sedan. The 3.5 should have at least 250 HP, or it will stay behind the [non-permissible content removed].
I don't know about you, but when I merge on a Highway or pass on a two-lane in a passing zone - I NEED all the power I can get, and it happens that I cannot get it from the 500. It's too heavy and bulky for the small 3.0L.
As far as the Fusion is concerned - it is posing to be a sporty mid size sedan, but the engine fails to deliver the amount of sporty-ness that one would expect from a car that handles so well otherwise.
Even in a 3500-pound sedan, 200+ hp is enough to do the job, even in freeway merging. I know the 3.5 is coming for this model. I would like to see them keep the 3.0 as the base engine, and improve its fuel economy A LOT, with the 3.5 as the optional engine for all you bahn-burners out there...
Won't happen though. Impala's base engine is sure to be the 240 hp 3.9 in a year or two (which has crap fuel economy, I do better in my 4Runner), so Ford has to keep up in "the race", I guess.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
My major gripe about the 3.0 in the 500 is that when you get into it, it makes sounds of distress. I think this sound of being wrung out like a dish rag is what people are complaining about. The CVT makes it even worse cause the RPMs shoot up like motorcycle.
The 3.0 Duratec is as developed as it can get. So the 3.5 is due.
If you were to drive an Escape with the 2.3L and the Escape with the 3.0 Duratec, you would definitely feel that the 3.0L is faster. But the 2.3 sounds so much smoother and never sounds like its having its guts thrashed. The 3.0 was cutting edge in 1996...but that is now 10 years ago.
Mark
The engine makes a lot of noise, which may give the impression that it's going quite fast... However, a RAV4 or CR-V with a manual transmission will dust the V6 in a sprint. Even with an automatic, these four bangers will give it a run for it's money.
I believe the reason why the Escape earned such a solid reputation for the 3.0 is simply that it was first with both a decent engine and decent-sized body. It was a nice package back in 2001.
I don't think throwing cubic inches at the problem is necessarily the solution, though. They need to step up to the plate with better engines, not bigger engines. Their VVT systems are pretty basic and half the models don't have one. How many Fords have DBW? Some companies (notably Subaru) have increased EPA fuel economy ratings significantly when tuning DBW.
It's not a solution for the Five Hundred, but Ford needs a respectable I4. For cars like the Fusion. Holes like that need to be filled.