I sort of feel the same way about Scion though - why did Toyota have to make a "Saturn" that eventually, they may find has turned into a Mercury of sorts. OTOH - you had to stand in line to get inside one of the damn things (Scions, I mean) at the Motor Trend show this weekend... They are HOT in the market - I just can't figure out why.
I guess GM came to a similar decision when it came to Buick and Pontiac.
But Scions are so very different from Toyotas, I guess just by that alone, it was reason enough.
I turn my nose up at the xB and xA simply because they got the Echo engine and not the Corolla engine, plus the guages in the center of the car issue.
My thought is they didn't really sell any Echos, so they had all these engines without a car to sell them in, they thought let's drop them in these and see what happens.
But I've driven the tC, and you should believe the hype on that car! Very impressive!
What kinds of people were in those lines to see a Scion? Were they young people, like 'Yota wants, or older people who know value when they see it?
But that's the whole point, isn't it? Toyota will be dead if it ever lets Scion turn into a Mercury-like rebadging division for Toyota. But I think Toyota is smart enough to never let that happen. They know the score.
Scion is a great way to get JDM Toyota models that don't otherwise make it here into the mix. And since their designs are garish, unconventional, or whatever, they get a separate brand so as not to scare away the traditional Toyota buyers.
Were Ford to do something like this - perhaps bringing over Euro-Fords and selling them ONLY as Mercurys - that would be a whole different thing, and not a bad idea IMO. Think of it - the Euro-Focus sold here as the Mercury XYZ, commanding a price high enough to allow Ford to make a profit, and if it's really all that, giving top of the line Mazda3s, Civics, and Jettas something to worry about. I am sure there are other models they could do this with as well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Were Ford to do something like this - perhaps bringing over Euro-Fords and selling them ONLY as Mercurys - that would be a whole different thing, and not a bad idea IMO. Think of it - the Euro-Focus sold here as the Mercury XYZ, commanding a price high enough to allow Ford to make a profit, and if it's really all that, giving top of the line Mazda3s, Civics, and Jettas something to worry about. I am sure there are other models they could do this with as well.
Put in a Mercury Focus (Euro model) at $20-25K, would go head to head with the new Jetta, and would have to exceed the new Civic in quality and features. I am sure it could kill the Jetta, from what I have read about it in the European mags.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So many here have suggested that Ford turn Mercury into a Eurostyle brand and I think its a great idea since Ford feels that the European Ford are too expensive to sell as Fords over here.
Problem is Mercury and Lincoln would have to be seperated and every current Mercury would need to be re-done and/or dropped along with finding a new breed of salesperson to sell the Euro-themed cars because the current LM salesforce is clueless about how to sell anything that isn't a Linc or traditional Mercury. This is one reason why IMO that no small car has ever been successful at a LM store.
I would love to see that Euro Focus and all its performance variants plus that oh-so-hot hardtop convertible model sold here. The Euro Focus would be a natural little brother model to the new Fusion.
Nope, that is what I was thinking about (sorry I didn't mention it) when I said that LM dealer wouldn't have a clue about how to sell a smaller more Euro-themed car to a buyer that would otherwise be at a VW store.
Yes I remember the Merkurs...loved the Scorpio. One of my best friend's father had one. It was so differnt from everthing else on the block at the time. I remember it even had power reclining rear seats something I though on a MB 560SEL had at the time.
Here is a radical idea-since SUBARU has revived the EDSEL "horse collar" grille, why not revive the EDSEL brand and use it to sell the "Euro"-style FORDS? It would create a l;ot of interest-and somewhere (in a moldy old basement warehouse in Dearborn, MI) is all the EDSEL promotional stuff-dealer signs, ads, keyrings, etc. They could have the new brand launched in months!
if Ford were to make Merc the Euro Ford outlet, they would have to make A LOT more effort with Lincoln, to keep it above the new Mercurys in the pecking order. And the 4-cyl 5-speed Milan would have to leave the line-up so as not to create TOO much overlap in pricing with the EuroFocus.
Really, Milan should be an undiluted EuroMondeo rather than a rebadged Fusion. I would love to see this happen.
The Merkur experiment does not necessarily mean this couldn't work, IMO. We have the internet now, which lots of shoppers use for info on their purchases. Salespeople of all brands are clueless about the cars they are trying to sell.
The only question is: is Mercury such an irrelevant brand now that no-one will shop them (except previous Mercury owners) regardless of what they put in the line-up? I suspect the answer is probably yes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I guess we could all see this coming...what with the truck and SUV sales slowing. Some of the plants are truck or SUV focused. The Freestyle sales are up 46%...without any advertising! Or dealer help! Maybe they should re-consider dropping the Freestyle line.
"Hoping the same 'ol same 'ol will save the day." and "no real plan for Mercury and Lincoln 5 years out."
Next year, new Lincoln Aviator, Milan and Zephyr AWD (with a new engine in Zephyr), Mercury Crossover (probably year after), new engine in the Montego and redesigned Navigator. That's just Lincoln and Mercury. Ford Division gets the Edge, the Everest, a new engine in the 500, redesigned Escape, probably year after, and upgrades like iPod-ready radios for Fusion and Milan and a couple of other vehicles. Not to mention increased hybrid production.
All of that sounds like a company that is providing vehicles and features that consumers want.
Freestyle will be replaced by the Edge. There are pictures on the internet.
Fusion is solid and exciting and will pick up sales where Taurus left off. (My opinion, just like you have yours. But I've seen projected sales.) Ford has minimized fleet sales, so you won't see a lot of Fusion's and 500's in rental car agencies. Look at 500's total sales, very few fleets.
It seems to me that Ford, in the last phase of their restructuring plan are right on pace to be competitive. Keep in mind, they still have the best-selling pickup truck - (F150), compact SUV (Explorer), small SUV (Escape) and sports car (Mustang).
I'm not ready to count Ford out yet. They still make some great products.
Hehehe. OK, I'll bite. I don't recall exactly what I said, too lazy to go look it up, but I reserved my special disdain for L/M, I am sure.
"Next year, new Lincoln Aviator, Milan and Zephyr AWD (with a new engine in Zephyr), Mercury Crossover (probably year after), new engine in the Montego and redesigned Navigator"
The "new" Mercury crossover will be a rebadged Ford Freestyle, which then will cease to be in the Ford line-up. So their "new" model will already be three years old. This bright new engine you mention in several different references is the long, long-awaited 3.5, which will be shared throughout the line-up (in the Five Hundred and Edge, among others). The engine is overdue but should invigorate sales a bit, I agree.
If you really think that Ford, as locked into overproduction as GM is, will not replace all those Taurus fleet sales with Five Hundred and Fusion fleet sales, then I would submit you may be a little overly optimistic. And where exactly will they make up for the loss of fleet sales from the Taurus's demise?
The Explorer is down in sales some 50% this fall from the same time last year, and that is the all-new revised '06 model. Ford has already rumored it will be closing one of the Explorer plants in Georgia next year.
The Edge looks cute in the pictures, but the story behind the Freestyle's early disappearance is ominous: they are bumping it up to the higher-price Mercury line because it is too expensive to build? If this model, which is decent by market standards but nothing more, is too expensive for Ford to build at a competitive price, it is in trouble that won't quickly go away.
As for the F-150, yes, it has sold well. It's primary competitor, the Silverado clones, was something like six years old when the new F-150 came out. GM has made so much of the intro of its new trucks next year, they may just have made the Silverado much more competitive for the '07 MY. Which may or may not pull sales away from Ford trucks (it may not if fierce brand loyalty among truck owners has anything to say about it!).
I'm not counting Ford out yet, but neither is their future assured. And the L/M lines are in much worse shape than the Ford brand itself.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Keep in mind, they still have the best-selling pickup truck - (F150), compact SUV (Explorer), small SUV (Escape) and sports car (Mustang)."
Doesn't really matter unless they are making good money on those vehicles. The F-150 and Mustang certainly do, but the Escape and Explorer are sold with big incentives and fire sale ads.
"I'm not ready to count Ford out yet. They still make some great products."
I don't think anyone here seriously thinks Ford is going away. And that's not what this thread is about.
As GM seems to be diving deeper and deeper into the pooper, one would expect that Ford would be the company to pick up the slack. Every one says, "if GM fails, Ford will benefit". But that doesn't seem to be happening. Ford is not benefiting from GMs troubles. (The big Asians seem to be.)
So that leaves a big question mark on the face of Ford. What kind of future might they have when they can't take advantage of their biggest competitor's mistakes?
Actually, Ford makes money on all four vehicles mentioned, even with big incentives. Escape, not as much, but Explorer makes almost as much as the Mustang, which is pretty good right now.
I know you said that anyone here doesn't seriously think Ford is going away. Actually, there are many analysts and columnists that think so which gets me to your next point about capitalizing GM's mistakes. When Ford announced big profits in the first quarter and GM announced big losses in the first quarter, what happened to stock prices. They both dropped. Chrysler is wanting to pull out of the "Big 3" to not be associated with GM or Ford. Unfortunately, it seems that whenever an article comes out about GM's problems, Ford gets mentioned also. Ford is trying to capitalize on GM's troubles, but until the public separates the two, Ford will lose more share to imports.
Also, if you ask any executive at Ford, they will tell you that Toyota is their biggest competitor, not GM.
The "new" Mercury will be built on the same line as the Freestyle, but it will look nothing like the Freestyle, have a new engine, but keep all that makes the Freestyle a great crossover vehicle. (I agree the 3.5L is long overdue, but it will be one of the best V6's in the industry.)
I agree that there will be some fleet replacement of Taurus with Fusion and 500, but nowhere near the numbers Taurus put up. Last year Ford gave up 120,000 fleet units that GM gobbled up. (They lost money on that business so, next year GM is giving up those units. I wonder who is going to take them?
Explorer is still King of the Compact SUV Hill, and the market segment has shrunk quite a bit, but there is still a market out there for that kind of vehicle. I don't see Explorer losing its throne. Actually, the new model is getting great reviews, so who knows.
F-Series sales will come close to topping 900,000 units this year. Yes, Silverado may steal some and yes, the Toyota truck, when it is introduced, will steal a few, but it will be hard to unseat the best selling vehicle in the world for the past 20+ years, even with higher fuel prices.
I just don't know how you can say that their future is not assured. I know it is just your opinion and you're entitled to it. But for many American auto workers, I sure hope Ford has a future.
As I mentioned before, you can't compare the Taurus production and the need for selling Tauruses to fleet buyers..
Taurus was built in 2 factory which had basically 2 settings full production and idle.
500 is built alongside Freestyle and Montego in one factory.
As for the cost of building the Five Hundred, Freestyle, this was always a problem. When Ford purchased Volvo, the S60 platform was always viewed as a replacement platform for the Taurus. The guys at Ford though could never get the cost down into the Tauruses price range hence the "Premium Mid-size" is born.
You really can't compare the 500/Freestyle with the Fusion. The former were locked in stone 3 years before production began. The later were designed/tested/ etc completely digitally and went to production in only 3 years or so.
There is no Explorer plant in Georgia. The Atlantic plant built Taurues/Sables.
Ford has long talked of closing the KC Explorer plant. This is nothing new.
Ford's big Mistake was Nasser's failure to concentrate on the product. At a time when the Industry was getting more and more fragmented, Ford had fewer new vehicles in the pipeline and those that were in the pipeline were too expensive for the market.
But in the car business, its still all about the product. If Ford can get innovative product to market, than Ford will be competitive.
If you really think Fords suck, just do this simple test. Go a Honda dealer and drive a Pilot then go to a Ford dealer and drive an Explorer.
Go to a Nissan dealer and drive a Titan then go drive an F-150.
People say Japanese rule in cars but the Fusion and Five-Hundred are competitive. The F-150 blows the competition away and so does the new Explorer.
Very good point about Toyota..I do not think they should be consider ed an importanymore.. not only because they build here, but because all (alsmot all) of their models are US designed.... unlike honda that is keeping plenty of World vehicles, Toyota has almost none: Corolla, Civic, All of Scion, etc.. all ate specific ofr North America...
And yes I am tired of the Ford-Gm Twin articles DaChCo. is puling out.. they are profitable and doing fine.. I think they are moving along quite well in distinguishing themselves from the Gm-Ford...
Ford however deserves a distinction as well.. Although I hear this talking head on Tv recently talking how GM is better off than Ford, because of product line and whatnot... didn't make sense if you look at Chevy.. bbut take in to account Caddi and Pontiac and you actually see very well defined lineupps there.
"Toyota has almost none: Corolla, Civic, All of Scion, etc.. all ate specific ofr North America..."
Civic is a Honda. Corolla is a "world sedan", sold in many more places than Ford sells anything sold here. The Scions xA and xB are Japanese home market cars that were then introduced here as Scions. NOT specific for NA.
This is not an all-or-nothing proposition. If I think there are doubts about Ford's future, that does NOT MEAN I think they are going out of business in the next decade. Far from it. I think they have a much better chance than GM of properly downsizing in time to turn it all around. But that is also the reason the media always singles these two out together: they are the only two manufacturers out there who have a significant problem of overproduction and overcapacity.
And now while they continue to downsize is the perfect time to phase out the almost totally irrelevant Mercury brand.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And now while they continue to downsize is the perfect time to phase out the almost totally irrelevant Mercury brand.
Anyone who favors dropping Mercury needs to explain what Ford should do with the Mercury dealers. Marketing and branding are not the only issues to consider.
Are there a lot of stand-alone Mercury dealerships? Or are they mostly "Lincoln-Mercury"?
If there aren't too many stand-alones, seems Ford might be able to convert the dealerhips to Lincoln only, maybe class them up a bit to give them a real luxury feel? :confuse:
The people in line to get into a Scion, were all Gen &. Every one of them, and they were looking at me like, What do you want, old man? Get away from my car!
Sadly, Lincoln doesn't sell enough cars to keep the dealerships alive alone. The Navigator and the Zephyr are the only semi-hot cars Lincoln has right now.
My Dad was always a Ford guy (he's dead now) and I owned one of the first Escorts ever made...that being said my only concern right now is the sorry state of affairs in St. Louis and all of our lost jobs. I wonder if the Ford employees know that they should probably be looking into refinancing their home mortgages now...because once the announcement is made about a plant closing...that human resources department will have to say that continued employment is not expected and those poor folks won't be able to get loans....so now is when they should be doing that. I wish I could get hold of all 1400 of them and explain this in detail...it might help them save their homes. I was lucky a few years ago before I was a loan officer...I took out a 2nd mortgage (cash) and was able to make my mortgage payments once my company laid me off....
It's just so unfair...even with the severance packages they are likely to be offered...lenders don't recognize severance packages when it comes to doing loans.
When they will need it the most they will be least likely to get the money...they should all be looking into it now.
My mom and her boyfriend have matching Lincolns...they've done their share to keep Ford alive. I would like to know why Ford would leave KY plant open and close St. Louis...we need those jobs.
I hate to see any domestic plants closing right now. The reason is the import penetration in the US. I know, many will say the domestics dug their own graves by building poor quality vehicles which is why many have jumped ship to a japanese or korean model.
There is a lot of truth to that, nonetheless, I believe we (Americans) should support American companies. There are a lot more domestic vehicles today that can compete with imports. Domestic quality has risen over the past several years while some import quality has declined.
So much of what we spend our disposable income on is not made in the US. That was the import plan. Our market is huge. Japan took all of the electronics business away from American companies. I don't want to see them take away our car industry. I just don't think it is good for America.
And, I agree with both of you - this is horrible for America and more specifically, Americans. I've been a pretty loyal Ford customer all my life - however, occasionally a fairly large egg is laid, even by Ford, and the redesign of the current Town Car in 98 was one of those IMO. When it came time for my next Sedan, I tried to like the new Town Car, I really did as I loved the prior one. Still think it was the high-water mark for Lincoln. But the interior of the 98 and beyond ones was so plain, and spartan, and the Air Conditioning was weak. A big problem where I drive.
Tried all the Competition - bought a Lexus. Still drive lots of Lincolns and Mercurys though. Just, not a Town Car.
I thought that might be the case. But what about taking all future plans for the Mercury line and making Lincoln's out of 'em instead? There is more profit for Ford in Lincoln sales than in Mercury sales, after all.
Whatever the rebadged Freestyle will be called, kill Mercury and make it a Lincoln. Lincoln should have a three-row crossover to complement the Navigator anyway. Now you've got three models in addition to the Panther car (which one do they still make? I forget. Is it the TC or the Continental?)
Since their large cars have the perception of being strictly livery/fleet, how about fancying up a Five Hundred even nicer than the S60 and selling that as a Lincoln? Or perhaps develop a GT coupe to take on the SC430 and XLR?
See, with a little creative planning they could take all the money they are going to put into future Mercurys and make those dollars work harder for them by developing a full, highly competitive Lincoln line-up instead. Then maybe Lincoln dealers could stand on their own. Consider that Lexus dealers were stand-alone for several years with only two models, both cars at that.
It just seems that the option to killing Mercury is weakly supporting Lincoln and Mercury ad infinitum, while neither one thrives. At least under my plan, one will thrive, and the more profitable one at that!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They could maybe do that, especially as plain as Lincoln cars have become, frankly.
U have to remember, Lexus did come out with one model, but their dealers didn't make any money for a while, and Lexus division for years.
And, you're a visionary, because Lincoln is going to bring out a P-2 (Volvo) based 500 like sedan, which I hope they call Continental, and not something so original like LTC or LCS ala Cadillac.
Any way they call it, I hope they don't scrimp on the cabin, the A/C or the seats in this one.
Whatever the rebadged Freestyle will be called, kill Mercury and make it a Lincoln. Lincoln should have a three-row crossover to complement the Navigator anyway.
Ford is already developing a crossover larger than the Freestyle to be sold by Ford and Lincoln. It should debut for the 2009 model year and will probably be built at the Wixom plant.
You make some good points. The Aviator next year will be a crossover on a Mazda platform and give Lincoln a three row vehicle. So, they wouldn't really need a re-badged Freestyle for Lincoln.
The Fusion and Zephyr are selling well, but the Milan is not. So, another plus to your suggestion.
The Town Car (Panther platform) is still being made, but Ford is thinking about a major overhaul, or replacing it with, as someone mentioned on another post, a car on the Volvo platform that will probably be called the Continental.
They have a Mercury sports car that has made Auto Show circuits that would compete with Lexus and other high end sports cars. This one could easily be badged a Lincoln, too.
I have got to believe that Mark Fields and Bill Ford are having these similar discussions.
In the abstract, I appreciate your comment about buying American to support American workers...and, for the record, while I owned Hondas from 1986-2001, I now own a 2004 Ram 1500 Hemi and 2004 Crown Vic, so my criticism of the American worker will be tempered by the fact that I DID buy American...
I lived in Detroit from 1980-1990, when the Big 3 made products that Tonka would be ashamed to sell as junk toys, and the Japanese invasion was ramping up...truthfully, we made absolute junk...GM cars would spend weeks in dealer repair shops and no one could fix them, they were barely qualified as boat anchors...when I would ask union workers (UAW) how they felt when someone bought an American car and it spent all that time in the shop, routinely their answer was, "Well, he bought it, it's his problem now"...I heard tham from union workers over and over again...
THEN I BLEW UP AND REALIZED THAT THE ARROGANT UNION WORKER NEEDED SOME COMEUPPANCE...I realized it, and, apparently, millions of Americans "overheard" what was said to me, because they (rightfully) deserted the American cars and bought Japanese cars instead...I was AMAZED at the arrogance of the union workers who EXPECTED me to spend my $$$ on their product when they did not give a damn about it, but they damn well thought their overpaid jobs were a Divine Right from God...
After all the crap from the UAW about "buying American to save your neighbor's job", one thing that they forgot... Americans will gravitate to quality, and we were not getting it from the UAW...I owned Hondas from 1986-2001...
After withholding my $$$ from them, I finally decided to see if they had changed...I believe they did...BUT THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE IMPROVED WITHOUT THE COMPETITION FROM THE JAPANESE, PERIOD...NOTHING ELSE BUT THE LOSS OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF UNION JOBS WOULD MAKE THEM WAKE UP...I now believe that they finally woke up...
While it is sad to see folks lose their jobs, they sold us shameful junk from 1970-1995, easily 25 years of trash...we will not tolerate it anymore...Americans, like me, will support your product only if you provide a quality product, you have no RIGHT to keep your job making trash...
What always intrigued me was all the folks in Detroit that were not UAW held American cars in such contempt, and would not buy their neighbor's product...I was surprised at the number of folks who would basically say their neighbor made junk and their neighbor could take their union job and shove it...
Nobody wants a poor quality product, and American workers do NOT deserve our support when they make junk...no intelligent American will spend their $$$ on junk, and no one has the right to plead with us to save his job when he makes junk...survival of the fittest...
I wonder what would happen if Ford, GM and Chrysler all got together and told the UAW to pound salt. I believe I am correct that the import companies who assemble vehicles in the US do not have UAW representation. If they don't, why don't the domestics boot them out?
If they all got together, I believe it would constitue collusion or probably be some federal anti-trust violation...of course, with their shaky financial condition, it might pay to try it and see if the feds have the gall to fine them millions for antitrust and then be the exact cause that knocks them over the edge into bankruptcy...
But, thinking out loud, Chapter 11 will allow them to void their pensions and union contracts without getting together and colluding...
Ah, I remember 1984...Roger Smith was president of GM, GM had their first losing year in 75 years, and the union contract was up for renewal...the union struck for higher wages, but when they strike, workers live on $75 per week strike pay from the union...all Roger had to do was wait six months, and enough workers would be losing their homes that the union (UAW) and the union movement would have been busted for good...Roger capitulated in about 6 weeks, allowing thing to return to normal...he could have gone down in history as a hero, breaking the unions for good, for is the UAW was broken, Teamsters would be right behind...and Roger capitulated...
But, a new day is ahead...the airlines are about to destroy the pilots union, and the obvious looming bankruptcy of GM/Ford will take down the UAW...AT&T and the phone companies are shedding workers like a collie sheds hair in the summer, so the CWA (Communication Workers of America) will be down to 6 members soon...
After almost a century of union strongarming, sanity will return to America soon, and I can hardly wait...
You can't blame workers for turning out the cars management told them to produce. Do you really think management would implement a proposed change from a line worker if would improve quality? NOT LIKELY. Like workers are stupid and don't know crap. They are interchangeable peons and would be replaced with robots if possible. Thats the company view.
Why is it that American workers in Japanese owned plants build high quality products?
Obviously its MANAGEMENT not the workers that is the problem.
The attitudes of the UAW workers you spoke to was just a reflection of the frustration he felt working for a company that seems bent on self-destruction.
Now that Management has buried the BIG3, who is being asked to sacrifice? With the exception of Bill Ford who gets now salary, Management is making big bucks while they ask Union workers to pay for Management's mistakes.
I remember hearing about a study they did several years ago that concluded vehicles assembled in the US actually had lower quality than the same vehicle assembled in Japan. Hadn't heard of any recent studies. Wonder if the US assembled vehicles have improved.
I also had experience with the UAW when in college. Some of the things that the UAW "helped" their people with were absurd. A worker came back from lunch drunk one afternoon. The Super told him to punch out and sleep it off, or he'd get someone to drive him home. The worker punched out the Super and was fired. (As he should have been.) Within two weeks, the UAW got him his job back. I don't think that's why unions were created.
Wixom doesn't have a new product after the LS ends.
Its my understanding that Wixom is in a hot real estate spot thats to suburban growth and really doesn't make much sense as a location for an auto plant.
Did the Japanese brands gain customers from Poor Quality? Absolutely. What really sealed the fate of the big three though was the completely Failure to build the product that consumers want to buy.
The mentality is We will build the cars We want them to buy.
Now as the Market is fragmented into more segments then ever, it seems that only Toyota/Scion/Lexus is in position to compete in every segment. GM still doesn't build desirable cars. They just don't get it.
Ford definitely has gaps to fill in the product lineup. We needed the Fusion about 4 years ago. We needed the subFocus car about 4 years ago. There no attempt to even build a new Ranger.
With the exception of the Ford Freestar, the new Ford Products are very competitive.
I feel that in the midsize sedan Fusion is so competitive that its now down to a choice based totally on personal taste.
Well yeah, Varmint! Look at Lincoln's lineup, and their plight is obvious. No performance car, as the LS has been allowed to simply die of neglect and has never been marketed as what it is. The Town Car is - well, I've already stated my piece on the Town Car many time - a great rental car. Continental is gone. Aviator is now out of production for now. Navigator is the only thing they have going. Zephyr is a pretty good car I think - and we'll see how it does. I have seen one on the road already, which is a good sign. Obviously "she" never lifts the hood to see the cheesy prop rod.
So, Mercury has the Milan, the Grand Marquis, the Mountaineer, the Mariner, all probably will continue to sell pretty well. The Monterey, I think I'm the only one who ever bought one, and I hear a new Cougar is in the works - hopefully a better one than the last one, although it sold pretty well.
You're looking at another person who bought a Monterey. My wife loves more than anything else she's driven. No problems.
The LS is being replaced by the Zephyr. The reason Ford didn't push the LS is because it was not a money-maker, especially the V6. The Zephyr will make money for the company. There will also be a new engine and an AWD version of the Zephyr. Continental will come back within two to three years on a Volvo platform and the Aviator for next year is a winner.
Quote: Why is it that American workers in Japanese owned plants build high quality products?
Obviously its MANAGEMENT not the workers that is the problem...end quote...
We see this quite differently...the union is the problem not management (altho I have different issues with management)...American workers in import auto plants make great products because the worthless workers, like the drunk mentioned above, never make it to the factory floor...import plants are, for the most part, non-unionized, which means that poor wrokmanship can be fired on the spot, not requiring two years of union appeals while the worker puts out junk...Big 3 folks have an "entitlement union attitude" that someone owes them something, whereas import workers know they can lose their job for poor quality, but will keep their job if they maintain quality...this is what the American worker was like until union power became too great...the death of the trade union will mean that all auto companies will cull out the worthless and maintain only the best, which is what every other normal company wants to do in America...
When doors close poorly, parts are mounted backwards, beer cans are placed in the chassis, I blame workers, not management...if the quality was there, the worker gets the credit, but when the quality is poor, the owrker takes the blame...
Like I said, with Delta, Northwest, Delphi, and eventually Ford and GM in Chapter 11, and they jettison their union contracts, normalcy will return to the American labor market, and some of those oursourced plants may just come home...
Real bottom line is this...no one in their right mind could argue that it is worth paying anyone $40/hr plus benefits to place wheel/tire assembly onto a wheel, but that is what a UAW person gets...same for the janitors, who here would pay $40/hr to sweep their floors???... nobody, as the job just does not have that intrinsic worth...
And for those who say it IS worth whatever they can get, I will agree in the short term, but Chapter 11 is proof of why it is a ridiculous wage for that kind of unskilled work...
Just saw an article in the Detroit News. Didn't get a chance to read the article, but it looked like Atlanta plant is getting a reprieve. Apparently Atlanta made a good case for Ford to keep it open.
Wixom, in your Free Press article looks to be spared, too.
Comments
DrFill
I guess GM came to a similar decision when it came to Buick and Pontiac.
But Scions are so very different from Toyotas, I guess just by that alone, it was reason enough.
I turn my nose up at the xB and xA simply because they got the Echo engine and not the Corolla engine, plus the guages in the center of the car issue.
My thought is they didn't really sell any Echos, so they had all these engines without a car to sell them in, they thought let's drop them in these and see what happens.
But I've driven the tC, and you should believe the hype on that car! Very impressive!
What kinds of people were in those lines to see a Scion? Were they young people, like 'Yota wants, or older people who know value when they see it?
DrFill
Scion is a great way to get JDM Toyota models that don't otherwise make it here into the mix. And since their designs are garish, unconventional, or whatever, they get a separate brand so as not to scare away the traditional Toyota buyers.
Were Ford to do something like this - perhaps bringing over Euro-Fords and selling them ONLY as Mercurys - that would be a whole different thing, and not a bad idea IMO. Think of it - the Euro-Focus sold here as the Mercury XYZ, commanding a price high enough to allow Ford to make a profit, and if it's really all that, giving top of the line Mazda3s, Civics, and Jettas something to worry about. I am sure there are other models they could do this with as well.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That's a cool idea.
Or the Merkur Scorpio? Driven in the TV show Spensor for Hire...(by his girl friend, forget her name)
Wish we could forget the Aussie born Mercury Capri.
I guess my point is Mercury has been there, done that, and couldn't pull it off.
Also Ford does bring the Euro Focus over here. Its called the Mazda3 and the Volvo S40.
Mark
S40 = $25-30K
Put in a Mercury Focus (Euro model) at $20-25K, would go head to head with the new Jetta, and would have to exceed the new Civic in quality and features. I am sure it could kill the Jetta, from what I have read about it in the European mags.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Problem is Mercury and Lincoln would have to be seperated and every current Mercury would need to be re-done and/or dropped along with finding a new breed of salesperson to sell the Euro-themed cars because the current LM salesforce is clueless about how to sell anything that isn't a Linc or traditional Mercury. This is one reason why IMO that no small car has ever been successful at a LM store.
I would love to see that Euro Focus and all its performance variants plus that oh-so-hot hardtop convertible model sold here. The Euro Focus would be a natural little brother model to the new Fusion.
M
Yes I remember the Merkurs...loved the Scorpio. One of my best friend's father had one. It was so differnt from everthing else on the block at the time. I remember it even had power reclining rear seats something I though on a MB 560SEL had at the time.
M
Really, Milan should be an undiluted EuroMondeo rather than a rebadged Fusion. I would love to see this happen.
The Merkur experiment does not necessarily mean this couldn't work, IMO. We have the internet now, which lots of shoppers use for info on their purchases. Salespeople of all brands are clueless about the cars they are trying to sell.
The only question is: is Mercury such an irrelevant brand now that no-one will shop them (except previous Mercury owners) regardless of what they put in the line-up? I suspect the answer is probably yes.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I guess we could all see this coming...what with the truck and SUV sales slowing. Some of the plants are truck or SUV focused.
The Freestyle sales are up 46%...without any advertising! Or dealer help! Maybe they should re-consider dropping the Freestyle line.
I'll just tackle a couple of points:
"Hoping the same 'ol same 'ol will save the day." and "no real plan for Mercury and Lincoln 5 years out."
Next year, new Lincoln Aviator, Milan and Zephyr AWD (with a new engine in Zephyr), Mercury Crossover (probably year after), new engine in the Montego and redesigned Navigator. That's just Lincoln and Mercury. Ford Division gets the Edge, the Everest, a new engine in the 500, redesigned Escape, probably year after, and upgrades like iPod-ready radios for Fusion and Milan and a couple of other vehicles. Not to mention increased hybrid production.
All of that sounds like a company that is providing vehicles and features that consumers want.
Freestyle will be replaced by the Edge. There are pictures on the internet.
Fusion is solid and exciting and will pick up sales where Taurus left off. (My opinion, just like you have yours. But I've seen projected sales.) Ford has minimized fleet sales, so you won't see a lot of Fusion's and 500's in rental car agencies. Look at 500's total sales, very few fleets.
It seems to me that Ford, in the last phase of their restructuring plan are right on pace to be competitive. Keep in mind, they still have the best-selling pickup truck - (F150), compact SUV (Explorer), small SUV (Escape) and sports car (Mustang).
I'm not ready to count Ford out yet. They still make some great products.
"Next year, new Lincoln Aviator, Milan and Zephyr AWD (with a new engine in Zephyr), Mercury Crossover (probably year after), new engine in the Montego and redesigned Navigator"
The "new" Mercury crossover will be a rebadged Ford Freestyle, which then will cease to be in the Ford line-up. So their "new" model will already be three years old. This bright new engine you mention in several different references is the long, long-awaited 3.5, which will be shared throughout the line-up (in the Five Hundred and Edge, among others). The engine is overdue but should invigorate sales a bit, I agree.
If you really think that Ford, as locked into overproduction as GM is, will not replace all those Taurus fleet sales with Five Hundred and Fusion fleet sales, then I would submit you may be a little overly optimistic. And where exactly will they make up for the loss of fleet sales from the Taurus's demise?
The Explorer is down in sales some 50% this fall from the same time last year, and that is the all-new revised '06 model. Ford has already rumored it will be closing one of the Explorer plants in Georgia next year.
The Edge looks cute in the pictures, but the story behind the Freestyle's early disappearance is ominous: they are bumping it up to the higher-price Mercury line because it is too expensive to build? If this model, which is decent by market standards but nothing more, is too expensive for Ford to build at a competitive price, it is in trouble that won't quickly go away.
As for the F-150, yes, it has sold well. It's primary competitor, the Silverado clones, was something like six years old when the new F-150 came out. GM has made so much of the intro of its new trucks next year, they may just have made the Silverado much more competitive for the '07 MY. Which may or may not pull sales away from Ford trucks (it may not if fierce brand loyalty among truck owners has anything to say about it!).
I'm not counting Ford out yet, but neither is their future assured. And the L/M lines are in much worse shape than the Ford brand itself.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Doesn't really matter unless they are making good money on those vehicles. The F-150 and Mustang certainly do, but the Escape and Explorer are sold with big incentives and fire sale ads.
"I'm not ready to count Ford out yet. They still make some great products."
I don't think anyone here seriously thinks Ford is going away. And that's not what this thread is about.
As GM seems to be diving deeper and deeper into the pooper, one would expect that Ford would be the company to pick up the slack. Every one says, "if GM fails, Ford will benefit". But that doesn't seem to be happening. Ford is not benefiting from GMs troubles. (The big Asians seem to be.)
So that leaves a big question mark on the face of Ford. What kind of future might they have when they can't take advantage of their biggest competitor's mistakes?
I know you said that anyone here doesn't seriously think Ford is going away. Actually, there are many analysts and columnists that think so which gets me to your next point about capitalizing GM's mistakes. When Ford announced big profits in the first quarter and GM announced big losses in the first quarter, what happened to stock prices. They both dropped. Chrysler is wanting to pull out of the "Big 3" to not be associated with GM or Ford. Unfortunately, it seems that whenever an article comes out about GM's problems, Ford gets mentioned also. Ford is trying to capitalize on GM's troubles, but until the public separates the two, Ford will lose more share to imports.
Also, if you ask any executive at Ford, they will tell you that Toyota is their biggest competitor, not GM.
I agree that there will be some fleet replacement of Taurus with Fusion and 500, but nowhere near the numbers Taurus put up. Last year Ford gave up 120,000 fleet units that GM gobbled up. (They lost money on that business so, next year GM is giving up those units. I wonder who is going to take them?
Explorer is still King of the Compact SUV Hill, and the market segment has shrunk quite a bit, but there is still a market out there for that kind of vehicle. I don't see Explorer losing its throne. Actually, the new model is getting great reviews, so who knows.
F-Series sales will come close to topping 900,000 units this year. Yes, Silverado may steal some and yes, the Toyota truck, when it is introduced, will steal a few, but it will be hard to unseat the best selling vehicle in the world for the past 20+ years, even with higher fuel prices.
I just don't know how you can say that their future is not assured. I know it is just your opinion and you're entitled to it. But for many American auto workers, I sure hope Ford has a future.
Taurus was built in 2 factory which had basically 2 settings full production and idle.
500 is built alongside Freestyle and Montego in one factory.
As for the cost of building the Five Hundred, Freestyle, this was always a problem. When Ford purchased Volvo, the S60 platform was always viewed as a replacement platform for the Taurus. The guys at Ford though could never get the cost down into the Tauruses price range hence the "Premium Mid-size" is born.
You really can't compare the 500/Freestyle with the Fusion. The former were locked in stone 3 years before production began. The later were designed/tested/ etc completely digitally and went to production in only 3 years or so.
There is no Explorer plant in Georgia. The Atlantic plant built Taurues/Sables.
Ford has long talked of closing the KC Explorer plant. This is nothing new.
Ford's big Mistake was Nasser's failure to concentrate on the product. At a time when the Industry was getting more and more fragmented, Ford had fewer new vehicles in the pipeline and those that were in the pipeline were too expensive for the market.
But in the car business, its still all about the product. If Ford can get innovative product to market, than Ford will be competitive.
If you really think Fords suck, just do this simple test. Go a Honda dealer and drive a Pilot then go to a Ford dealer and drive an Explorer.
Go to a Nissan dealer and drive a Titan then go drive an F-150.
People say Japanese rule in cars but the Fusion and Five-Hundred are competitive. The F-150 blows the competition away and so does the new Explorer.
I just got gas for $1.98 a gallon.
Mark
And yes I am tired of the Ford-Gm Twin articles
DaChCo. is puling out.. they are profitable and doing fine.. I think they are moving along quite well in distinguishing themselves from the Gm-Ford...
Ford however deserves a distinction as well..
Although I hear this talking head on Tv recently talking how GM is better off than Ford, because of product line and whatnot... didn't make sense if you look at Chevy.. bbut take in to account Caddi and Pontiac and you actually see very well defined lineupps there.
Igor
"Toyota has almost none: Corolla, Civic, All of Scion, etc.. all ate specific ofr North America..."
Civic is a Honda. Corolla is a "world sedan", sold in many more places than Ford sells anything sold here. The Scions xA and xB are Japanese home market cars that were then introduced here as Scions. NOT specific for NA.
This is not an all-or-nothing proposition. If I think there are doubts about Ford's future, that does NOT MEAN I think they are going out of business in the next decade. Far from it. I think they have a much better chance than GM of properly downsizing in time to turn it all around. But that is also the reason the media always singles these two out together: they are the only two manufacturers out there who have a significant problem of overproduction and overcapacity.
And now while they continue to downsize is the perfect time to phase out the almost totally irrelevant Mercury brand.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Anyone who favors dropping Mercury needs to explain what Ford should do with the Mercury dealers. Marketing and branding are not the only issues to consider.
If there aren't too many stand-alones, seems Ford might be able to convert the dealerhips to Lincoln only, maybe class them up a bit to give them a real luxury feel? :confuse:
It's just so unfair...even with the severance packages they are likely to be offered...lenders don't recognize severance packages when it comes to doing loans.
When they will need it the most they will be least likely to get the money...they should all be looking into it now.
There is a lot of truth to that, nonetheless, I believe we (Americans) should support American companies. There are a lot more domestic vehicles today that can compete with imports. Domestic quality has risen over the past several years while some import quality has declined.
So much of what we spend our disposable income on is not made in the US. That was the import plan. Our market is huge. Japan took all of the electronics business away from American companies. I don't want to see them take away our car industry. I just don't think it is good for America.
Tried all the Competition - bought a Lexus. Still drive lots of Lincolns and Mercurys though. Just, not a Town Car.
Whatever the rebadged Freestyle will be called, kill Mercury and make it a Lincoln. Lincoln should have a three-row crossover to complement the Navigator anyway. Now you've got three models in addition to the Panther car (which one do they still make? I forget. Is it the TC or the Continental?)
Since their large cars have the perception of being strictly livery/fleet, how about fancying up a Five Hundred even nicer than the S60 and selling that as a Lincoln? Or perhaps develop a GT coupe to take on the SC430 and XLR?
See, with a little creative planning they could take all the money they are going to put into future Mercurys and make those dollars work harder for them by developing a full, highly competitive Lincoln line-up instead. Then maybe Lincoln dealers could stand on their own. Consider that Lexus dealers were stand-alone for several years with only two models, both cars at that.
It just seems that the option to killing Mercury is weakly supporting Lincoln and Mercury ad infinitum, while neither one thrives. At least under my plan, one will thrive, and the more profitable one at that!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
U have to remember, Lexus did come out with one model, but their dealers didn't make any money for a while, and Lexus division for years.
And, you're a visionary, because Lincoln is going to bring out a P-2 (Volvo) based 500 like sedan, which I hope they call Continental, and not something so original like LTC or LCS ala Cadillac.
Any way they call it, I hope they don't scrimp on the cabin, the A/C or the seats in this one.
Ford is already developing a crossover larger than the Freestyle to be sold by Ford and Lincoln. It should debut for the 2009 model year and will probably be built at the Wixom plant.
The Fusion and Zephyr are selling well, but the Milan is not. So, another plus to your suggestion.
The Town Car (Panther platform) is still being made, but Ford is thinking about a major overhaul, or replacing it with, as someone mentioned on another post, a car on the Volvo platform that will probably be called the Continental.
They have a Mercury sports car that has made Auto Show circuits that would compete with Lexus and other high end sports cars. This one could easily be badged a Lincoln, too.
I have got to believe that Mark Fields and Bill Ford are having these similar discussions.
I lived in Detroit from 1980-1990, when the Big 3 made products that Tonka would be ashamed to sell as junk toys, and the Japanese invasion was ramping up...truthfully, we made absolute junk...GM cars would spend weeks in dealer repair shops and no one could fix them, they were barely qualified as boat anchors...when I would ask union workers (UAW) how they felt when someone bought an American car and it spent all that time in the shop, routinely their answer was, "Well, he bought it, it's his problem now"...I heard tham from union workers over and over again...
THEN I BLEW UP AND REALIZED THAT THE ARROGANT UNION WORKER NEEDED SOME COMEUPPANCE...I realized it, and, apparently, millions of Americans "overheard" what was said to me, because they (rightfully) deserted the American cars and bought Japanese cars instead...I was AMAZED at the arrogance of the union workers who EXPECTED me to spend my $$$ on their product when they did not give a damn about it, but they damn well thought their overpaid jobs were a Divine Right from God...
After all the crap from the UAW about "buying American to save your neighbor's job", one thing that they forgot... Americans will gravitate to quality, and we were not getting it from the UAW...I owned Hondas from 1986-2001...
After withholding my $$$ from them, I finally decided to see if they had changed...I believe they did...BUT THEY NEVER WOULD HAVE IMPROVED WITHOUT THE COMPETITION FROM THE JAPANESE, PERIOD...NOTHING ELSE BUT THE LOSS OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF UNION JOBS WOULD MAKE THEM WAKE UP...I now believe that they finally woke up...
While it is sad to see folks lose their jobs, they sold us shameful junk from 1970-1995, easily 25 years of trash...we will not tolerate it anymore...Americans, like me, will support your product only if you provide a quality product, you have no RIGHT to keep your job making trash...
What always intrigued me was all the folks in Detroit that were not UAW held American cars in such contempt, and would not buy their neighbor's product...I was surprised at the number of folks who would basically say their neighbor made junk and their neighbor could take their union job and shove it...
Nobody wants a poor quality product, and American workers do NOT deserve our support when they make junk...no intelligent American will spend their $$$ on junk, and no one has the right to plead with us to save his job when he makes junk...survival of the fittest...
Nice rant, with a lot of truth.
I wonder what would happen if Ford, GM and Chrysler all got together and told the UAW to pound salt. I believe I am correct that the import companies who assemble vehicles in the US do not have UAW representation. If they don't, why don't the domestics boot them out?
Hey, Ford, GM and Chrysler, are you listening?
But, thinking out loud, Chapter 11 will allow them to void their pensions and union contracts without getting together and colluding...
Ah, I remember 1984...Roger Smith was president of GM, GM had their first losing year in 75 years, and the union contract was up for renewal...the union struck for higher wages, but when they strike, workers live on $75 per week strike pay from the union...all Roger had to do was wait six months, and enough workers would be losing their homes that the union (UAW) and the union movement would have been busted for good...Roger capitulated in about 6 weeks, allowing thing to return to normal...he could have gone down in history as a hero, breaking the unions for good, for is the UAW was broken, Teamsters would be right behind...and Roger capitulated...
But, a new day is ahead...the airlines are about to destroy the pilots union, and the obvious looming bankruptcy of GM/Ford will take down the UAW...AT&T and the phone companies are shedding workers like a collie sheds hair in the summer, so the CWA (Communication Workers of America) will be down to 6 members soon...
After almost a century of union strongarming, sanity will return to America soon, and I can hardly wait...
Why is it that American workers in Japanese owned plants build high quality products?
Obviously its MANAGEMENT not the workers that is the problem.
The attitudes of the UAW workers you spoke to was just a reflection of the frustration he felt working for a company that seems bent on self-destruction.
Now that Management has buried the BIG3, who is being asked to sacrifice? With the exception of Bill Ford who gets now salary, Management is making big bucks while they ask Union workers to pay for Management's mistakes.
Mark
I also had experience with the UAW when in college. Some of the things that the UAW "helped" their people with were absurd. A worker came back from lunch drunk one afternoon. The Super told him to punch out and sleep it off, or he'd get someone to drive him home. The worker punched out the Super and was fired. (As he should have been.) Within two weeks, the UAW got him his job back. I don't think that's why unions were created.
Its my understanding that Wixom is in a hot real estate spot thats to suburban growth and really doesn't make much sense as a location for an auto plant.
Mark
The mentality is We will build the cars We want them to buy.
Now as the Market is fragmented into more segments then ever, it seems that only Toyota/Scion/Lexus is in position to compete in every segment. GM still doesn't build desirable cars. They just don't get it.
Ford definitely has gaps to fill in the product lineup. We needed the Fusion about 4 years ago. We needed the subFocus car about 4 years ago. There no attempt to even build a new Ranger.
With the exception of the Ford Freestar, the new Ford Products are very competitive.
I feel that in the midsize sedan Fusion is so competitive that its now down to a choice based totally on personal taste.
Mark
http://media.ford.com/newsroom/release_display.cfm?release=21886
If momentum means anything, the situation looks better for Merc.
So, Mercury has the Milan, the Grand Marquis, the Mountaineer, the Mariner, all probably will continue to sell pretty well. The Monterey, I think I'm the only one who ever bought one, and I hear a new Cougar is in the works - hopefully a better one than the last one, although it sold pretty well.
You're looking at another person who bought a Monterey. My wife loves more than anything else she's driven. No problems.
The LS is being replaced by the Zephyr. The reason Ford didn't push the LS is because it was not a money-maker, especially the V6. The Zephyr will make money for the company. There will also be a new engine and an AWD version of the Zephyr. Continental will come back within two to three years on a Volvo platform and the Aviator for next year is a winner.
Obviously its MANAGEMENT not the workers that is the problem...end quote...
We see this quite differently...the union is the problem not management (altho I have different issues with management)...American workers in import auto plants make great products because the worthless workers, like the drunk mentioned above, never make it to the factory floor...import plants are, for the most part, non-unionized, which means that poor wrokmanship can be fired on the spot, not requiring two years of union appeals while the worker puts out junk...Big 3 folks have an "entitlement union attitude" that someone owes them something, whereas import workers know they can lose their job for poor quality, but will keep their job if they maintain quality...this is what the American worker was like until union power became too great...the death of the trade union will mean that all auto companies will cull out the worthless and maintain only the best, which is what every other normal company wants to do in America...
When doors close poorly, parts are mounted backwards, beer cans are placed in the chassis, I blame workers, not management...if the quality was there, the worker gets the credit, but when the quality is poor, the owrker takes the blame...
Like I said, with Delta, Northwest, Delphi, and eventually Ford and GM in Chapter 11, and they jettison their union contracts, normalcy will return to the American labor market, and some of those oursourced plants may just come home...
Real bottom line is this...no one in their right mind could argue that it is worth paying anyone $40/hr plus benefits to place wheel/tire assembly onto a wheel, but that is what a UAW person gets...same for the janitors, who here would pay $40/hr to sweep their floors???... nobody, as the job just does not have that intrinsic worth...
And for those who say it IS worth whatever they can get, I will agree in the short term, but Chapter 11 is proof of why it is a ridiculous wage for that kind of unskilled work...
The latest rumor is that Atlanta is closing instead of Wixom.
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051202/NEWS11/51202007
The rumor is that the two new Lincoln sedans and that the larger Lincoln and Ford crossovers will be built there instead of Atlanta.
Wixom, in your Free Press article looks to be spared, too.
Corolla is a world nameplate, but the EU corolla is nothing like the Us Corolla they have nothing in common...
Camry is also pure US...
I take the Scion points...