Autoextremist.com has some good quotes from Wagoner about the "bailout" in its "On The Table" section. Utimately, the "bailout" question is really "do we want to the US to be able to compete in manufacturing in the world market"? I'm not apologizing for the lousy products and quality that the domestics have had in the past, or for their short-sightedness. However, American manufacturing, auto or otherwise, is behind the eight-ball because Washington keeps allowing other countries to screw us over. Are we going to become a nation that just consumes from other nations?
Well, I guess it's not selling like hotcakes, but based on September YTD RL Polk retail registration data, the only cars it is not outselling in its segment are the 300 and Impala. Which means, it's outselling the Avalon, Lacrosse, Grand Prix, Lesabre and Grand Marquis.
Here the actual numbers:
300C/300M - 80,506 Impala - 77,944 Five Hundred - 68,505 Avalon - 63,784 Lacrosse - 57,651 Grand Prix - 44,089 Lesabre - 42,866 Grand Marquis - 40,130
These are retail sales, excluding any fleet units.
They're not asking the Fed to bail them out. They are asking them to help level the playing field in technology and alternative fuels, just like the japanese government has been doing for years.
Washington crowd prefers to buy imports. Why do they have to care about Detroit?
Asian governments wellbeing is tied to national export, not to consumption like in USA. You cannot imagine negative trade balance in Asian countries. And they have to borrow us money to buy their exports. Somebody has to make money to borrow us to keep world economy rolling.
300C/300M - 80,506 Impala - 77,944 Five Hundred - 68,505 Avalon - 63,784 Lacrosse - 57,651 Grand Prix - 44,089 Lesabre - 42,866 Grand Marquis - 40,130
Listen, I'm a 500 fan - I like it better than both the 300C and the Impala, and I think the power is fine, and the economy is appreciated. But, realistically? If the 500 is not outselling the 300 or Impala, it's the loser! Outselling the Avalon is saying something I guess, but the Lacrosse, Grand Prix, Lesabre and Grand Marquis are pathetic. Kind of like beating Sam Snead at golf today - since he's dead, isn't he?
at www.aicautosite.com, through November 30, tell a somewhat different picture...
Impala - 224,295 Taurus - 181,929 300C/300M - 131,846 Grand Prix - 114,686 Five Hundred - 99,611 Avalon - 86,540 Lacrosse - 85,879 Lesabre - 74,333 Grand Marquis - 61,594 Crown Victoria - 60,454 Charger - 6,827 Montego - 24,858 Sable - 23,449
Now once the Sable and Taurus are totally phased out, I think 500 and Montego sales will improve. So I'm not counting it out as a total loser.
And you also have to consider that the car also competes, somewhat, with the likes of...
Camry - 398,379 Accord - 348,526 Altima - 236,923
Now these models are a bit smaller than the 500, but still close enough in size that many buyers could go either way. The main draw of a 500/Montego is the huge trunk and back seat legroom that would rival some 70's mastodons. But from the most important seat, that of the driver, it's not much roomier. And I'm sure enough people find the trunks and back seats of other cars roomy enough that its not a concern, and place more emphasis on the handling, performance, style, etc.
Still, like NVbanker, I'm kinda rooting for the 500, as well. There's just something I like about it. It has a clean, innoffensive, almost work-horse stance to it. Unfortunately, I guess that turns it into a bit of a wallflower. They need to get a bigger optional engine into it, though. I think the 3.0 is okay as a base engine...certainly no worse than 3.5 in the Impala, and not much worse than the 3.5 in the Charger/300 (I'm trying my damndest to ignore the 2.7 in those cars :P ) But it just needs something stronger as an option.
Ford is SUPPOSEDLY limiting fleet sales on the 500, while Impala sales run rampant to the fleets. So retail sales of each might be on an equal footing, in fact the 500 might be outselling the Impala with retail customers.
As for the 300: dramatic styling and a choice of 3 engines. I think it's the other way around: if the 300 weren't outselling the 500, Chrysler would have something MAJOR to worry about.
I know Ford has been working on this new 3.5L engine forever, and it's going to rock the known world when it arrives and all, but in the meantime couldn't they have made room under the 500's hood for the Mustang V-8 when they designed it, knowing it would be several years before the next-gen Duratec was ready? That could have been the optional engine. Then the 500 would be killing the 300 I think. The 300's interior is pretty cheap, the Dodge clone's interior is UNBEARABLY cheap, while the 500's interior is pretty decent.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hmmmmm, pretty sure that transaxle won't handle the power of the Mustang V-8 long term, Nippon. Not sure about the CVT, but that guy may be impossible to mate to the V-8 anyway right now.
Oh goodness no! I wasn't thinking of the CVT, but rather the 6-speed auto. How much work would it have been for them to make it happen? I'm thinking it would have been doable, and WELL worth the added investment.
Or they could have designed the 500 to use the existing automatic from the Mustang. Either way, the return on that investment would have been ten-fold.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, then there's that pesky cafe rating problem..... I could see them using the Crown Vic V-8, which gets you 239bhp I think without blowing the transmission. But had they mated it to the old 4 speed auto, or even the 5 speed auto, the car mags would give the car dimerits for "old tech transmissions." Don't you think?
with such a torquey engine, a 5-speed auto would have been acceptable. I mean, nobody criticizes the Mustang for same. The 500 isn't A WHOLE LOT heavier than the Mustang. And in the large car segment, a 5-speed is the current standard.
Look at Mercedes, still using the 5-speed auto for all their super-power cars, while stuff like the E350 is using the new 7-speed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Well, it sounds good, but I'm not an engineer - maybe you are. I'm guessing, they wanted that car to be right when it came out, more of a priority than fast, as a bad intro would be disastrous for Ford these days. Resources are scarce - too much company, too little profit, etc.
I have a CrownVic and I have yet to get above 22MPG burning plus gasoline cause after 100k the car won't burn regular without dropping to 18MPG highway. Have not seen a Crown Vic that gets 30MPG & my father is a Ford Dealer. Where is this V-8 that gets 30MPG??? :confuse:
that if you really baby a Crown Vic on the highway, you might be able to get close to 30 mpg. Presuming its in top running condition, that is. For the most part, they've been EPA-rated around 24-25 on the highway since around 1985, when the EPA changed the formula they used to estimate fuel economy. They had to adjust it downward to closer reflect real-world driving conditions, because by and large, people were just getting nowhere near the what the 1984 and earlier estimates were. For example, I had a 1980 Malibu with a 229 V-6, which I think was rated at 19/27. That sucker was lucky to see 15-16 around town, and maybe 22 on the highway.
FWIW though, my grandparents had an '85 LeSabre, 307-4bbl, with the 4-speed overdrive tranny. They got 29 mpg out of it on a vacation once. That car had really tall gearing, though. 2.73:1 rear, and overdrive would knock it down to around 1.80:1, so even at 70-80 mph (which Granddad rarely drove...Grandmom was a different story!) the car sounded like it was barely running. As long as you stayed on flat ground, and at a "reasonable" speed, it could get great economy. That was also back when it was newer, though. That car got handed down to me, and I think I might've gotten 22 mpg out of it ONCE!
I did try to replace my Crown Vic with a Mercury Montego/Ford 500. The car drove fine when you only had 2 people in it. I tested it with 2 6'3 240lb people in it it drove fine.
However when I put (4) 200 + people in it & a full set of golf carts or Luggage the 205hp Duratec engine was VERY Lackluster in performance. It choked.
I have a 6 cylinder in my 2004 Sport Trac. It does Not choke when I have 4 people & a load in the rear !
Conclusion: Ford should have offered a bigger engine as an option in the Mercury Montego/ Ford 500 and in the Mercury Milan/Ford Fusion. Without an bigger engine option or a Turbo Ford will lose sales. What I can't believe is these same Ford Management did the exact same thing when they brought out the first under-powered Jaguar S class and the Volvo S-80. Ford introduced them with Small engines the first 2 years & then later dropped the engines & offered bigger ones or Turbo's in succeeding years. Why can't they learn from previous mistakes in the SEDAN division? :mad:
I think someone already mentioned it, but I used retail figures, excluding fleet. Your numbers look like they are total sales, including fleet.
I also only looked at units in the segment the Five Hundred competes in.
I don't look for the decline in Taurus/Sable sales to be replaced by Five Hundred sales. The true replacement numbers will come from Fusion/Milan, which compete in the segment the Taurus/Sable are leaving.
The two engine choices have helped Chrysler with the 300. The Five Hundred was tracking pretty well and gaining on the 300 for the last part of the year.
I'd like to make a prediction that in 2006, the Five Hundred will be the segment leader. The new engine, new front end and, hopefully, no major problems will have more consumers looking at it. It is a fine family sedan.
You are right on. Ford should have offered a bigger engine when they launched the Five Hundred. Problem was, do you delay the launch of the car and wait for the 3.5L, or do you launch it with the 3.0L, get some sales and follow up with the additional engine when it's ready?. They chose the latter.
The only reason Corolla is making 40 highways is transmission..for example Totyota ATX are programmed to almost NEVER downshift.. this of course make the MPG jum up, but try to have a quick passing menuver.
I take honda's engineering. honda managed a good engine with their VTEC technology they also made it economical.
I do not think ford has any interest in gioing too mcuh closer to 40mpg right now. With the 2.0 Duratech, 35 mpg hwy, is very good, and the added 5 mpg would actually give it no edge... at least not right now... Ford buyers do not look at those things that much.
and about the V6.. I do not see anything about thenm dropping the ball with V6.. it is FINE!!!.. yeah we feel the 500 is underpowered, but comparted to what? a HeMI 300? 300 is an extravagant car, not a coservative vehicle that 500 is. They are the same size, but they have completely different Market.. The 500 competes with avalon...
It is weaker, but obviously not as much (and customers seem not caring - looking at the sales figures). And the next years 3.6 will be right spot on agains the avalon. Igor
I think to some extent, the Taurus/Sable do compete with the 500/Montego. Once it's gone, I could see some buyers going to the 500/Montego, but yeah, I could see the Fusion/Milan picking up a lot of it as well. The Taurus pretty much splits the two right down the middle.
The 500 is nicer than a Taurus, and a little bigger inside, but I don't think it's a big enough jump up that it's a whole new exlusive catgory. Nor do I feel the LaCrosse, Grand Prix, etc are, either.
Ford wants you to think the 500 is a full-sized car, and a viable replacement for the old Crown Vic. I look at it more as a "tweener" car though. Kinda like a 1985 Buick Electra or Olds 98. Sure, they were considered full-sized cars, and marketed as such, but they ended up with interior measurements that fell somewhere between the midsized and full-sized cars on the market at the time.
Test drive an Avalon, then go step into a 500, and you will be RUNNING BACK to 'Yota!
And my #2: Everybody is running 240-280HP. Chrysler 300 offers 3 ENGINES!! From Bonnevilles to Altimas, to 300+HP in the Impala SS, Ford has been left in the proverbial dust by the competition. And now won't get a second look by most. You only get one chance to make a first impression.
What the 500 has turned into is a Taurus replacement, in perception. It is not a $30k+ flagship like Avalon or 300C. Can't compete with these cars. Most 500 sell around $24-27k. Add $5k to 300 and Avalon, maybe more.
Ford is not good enough right now to make an adequate car or truck. Period!
YES, they should've waited until the late-to-the-party 3.5 was ready. Or better yet, not be so late-to-the-party in the first place! :mad:
Strangely, it is making roughly the same sales the Passat was, the car it is obviously modeled after. Is much heavier, and not much more powerful.
The Five Hundred did not replace the Taurus, the Fusion is.
Hate mention it again, but horsepower is not King! We are talking family sedans. When you drive a Five Hundred, the seating position gives it away that you are not in a sports sedan. It wasn't designed to be.
The Five Hundred is outselling the Avalon right now. It's selling because it is a safe, roomy and good value "family sedan". This seams to be enough for a lot of people.
"Ford is not good enough right now to make an adequate car or truck. Period."
Look at the recent launches of Ford vehicles. F150, Freestyle, Five Hundred/Montego, Mustang, Mariner, Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, Escape and Mariner Hybrids. No major problems.
"Hate mention it again, but horsepower is not King!"
HP is not everything, I'll give you that. But it seems to me that the Nissan Altima's 240 hp 3.5L V6 was a big part in that car's success story. In fact, horsepower is a key ingredient in Nissan's whole revival.
The reason why the Avalon isn't selling in huge volumes is because it's a more expensive car and Toyota hasn't been discounting them until recently. This is a complete exaggeration, but it's like comparing a Lexus to a Corolla. There's a bigger market for cheap cars, but the expensive ones have higher profit margins. If you can't outsell the competition when you undercut them by $5K, you've got a problem.
"Ford is not good enough right now to make an adequate car or truck. Period!"
I agree with Littlez on this one. Many of their products are perfectly adequate. Problem is... the competition keeps creating cars that are far better than adequate. The only recent Fords I would put on that level are the F-150 and Mustang.
Actually, most Altimas are sold with the 4 cylinder engine. Nissan offered good value for a mid-size car. Altima is not the only one in its segment that sells mostly 4 cylinders. The Camry and Accord also sell mostly 4 cylinder engines, nationally. They also have more manual transmission sales than the domestics. This helps to keep the quality rate up. A good portion of problems affecting vehicles have something to do with the automatic transmission. Don't sell many automatics, improve your quality rating.
Please don't slam me for this comment. I know the difference between some import quality and some domestic quality is not just about automatic transmissions, but truth is, if every manufacturer stopped offering an automatic transmission, recalls would drop significantly.
You're right. Galaxie 500 was considered. I think they dropped it because Galaxie doesn't start with an "F".
You're also right about the Five Hundred replacing the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Ford received so many letters from state patrol offices, local law enforcement agencies and old people to keep the big rear drive cars.
that probably was the original plan, but a 500 is about as good of a replacement for a Crown Vic as a 1985 Electra was for an '84. Most "civilians" (i.e., non cops/cabbies) who buy something like a Crown Vic or Grand Marquis but it because it's a physically big car with presence, not for space effiency. And the cops and cabbies buy them because they're rugged, durable, and cheap to fix.
Now if the Crown Vic or Grand Marquis were to go away, I'm sure many of those buyers would go to a 500 or Montego (I could see them migrating to a 300 or Lucerne just as easily though) simply because there would no longer be a direct alternative.
The 500 really slots in between the Taurus and the Crown Vic, while the Fusion slots a bit below the Taurus. Ford seems to be slowly adopting the formula set by Chevrolet and Dodge, where they have a compact car (Neon, Cobalt, Focus) a smallish midsize (Malibu, Stratus, Fusion) and a smallish full-size (Impala, Intrepid/Stratus, 500). Meanwhile, they seem to be phasing out the old-school full-size, which GM dropped after '96, and Chrysler after '81.
The 500 has a HUGE trunk...bigger actually than the Crown Vic. And the back seat has more legroom. It still feels like a midsized car to me overall though...usually generous shoulder room is what makes a car feel roomy to me, even if it really isn't.
Their adopted formula kind of looks a little like Toyota, also. Focus/Corolla, Fusion/Camry, Five Hundred/Avalon. I just don't think they really need a Crown Vic/Grand Marquis anymore, even if they are rear-wheel drive.
Many companies, including Ford think that AWD will be a replacement for those who want rear-drive. Is this the right decision? Chrysler introduced the 300 with a rear-drive platform because they didn't agree with this. Who is right? I don't think the Chrysler rear-drive strategy has any longevity. They will sell now because they are quite different than anything out there, but what about two or three years from now? I don't see much of a future with rear drive unless it's a sports car. Just my opinion.
might be the way to go as cars get bigger, heavier, and more high-performance. Many of the advantages of FWD tend to dissipate as you move to a bigger car. And with advancements in ABS, traction control, better tires, etc, RWD doesn't have nearly the bad weather handicap that it once did.
The main reason that Chrysler ended up with RWD on the 300/Charger is because they wanted to go back to V-8 power. IIRC, the original plan was to offer these platforms with FWD, RWD, or AWD, and a choice of V-6 or V-8 power. In the end, the FWD version was scrapped.
I think at one time, Chrysler may have wanted to offer the Intrepid/Concorde/etc with a choice of FWD, AWD, or RWD, which is why the engine was set up longitudinally. At the time though, they just didn't have the money to carry out that ambitious plan, so the only thing that remained from it was the north-south engine setup. Supposedly that engine setup reduces torque steer that's normally a feature of FWD cars. I dunno if it does or not...I can still get the front-end of my Intrepid to shoot off to one side if I put my mind to it, and I only have the 2.7!
If the environmentalists have their way, we'll all be driving electric/solar-paneled/hydrogen/ethanol powered vehicles that will all get 100 mpg and the big engines and rear-drive platforms will be part of the stories we tell our grandkids.
"Well, Johnny, in the old days they made cars that had big V8 engines in them. I know it sounds weird, but Grandpa actually had "fun" driving them."
I'm sorry, but a Toyota Prius cannot be "fun" to drive. Sorry, wrong forum.
This forum is so full of just plain wrong information.
First, compared to the F-150, all other "fullsize trucks" are toys. The vaunted MT Truck of the year Titan has a max payload that barely exceeds that available in a FORD RANGER!!!.
I've seen the tower of tough video Ford uses for F-150 training. The F-150 has 360 lb ft of torque 2nd highest in class. The F-150 does a better job than any other truck of getting the power to the pavement. Spinning wheels doesn't get you any where, thats why its called spinning wheels.
The F-150 in a Tug of War with every other "fullsize" truck, including the "Hemi" Dodge (its really a semi-hemi) drags them around like a kid with his blankie. Anyone can have huge horse power numbers but who cares if you can't get that power to the ground?
For a truck, TORQUE is way more important than HP.
The problem with the 500/Freestyle, is not that they are underpowered, its that they fail to capture the imagination of the public. People really do not seem to have an emotional draw to these cars... They drip practicality from every seam but style and grace seem to come up a little short. This of course is the result of the stupid advertising campaign.
The new Milan campaign seems pretty good. I hope Ford puts together this type of campaign for some more vehicles.
This will never change. People buy the car they like from someone they like. In other words, its an emotional decision.
Some people feel good buying a car knowing that its faster than any other sedan available.
I think just as many people would feel good buying a car knowing that its the safest sedan available to transport their family in.
Anybody can give you the former by just adding a bigger engine to their otherwise average car. Would we even care about the 300 if it didn't have the Hemi?
Only a real car company dedicated to building the best product possible could accomplish the later.
www.highwaysafety.org
Check it out. Ford Five Hundred is the ONLY Gold Medal Winner for full size sedan.
The problem with the 500/Freestyle, is not that they are underpowered
That is exactly the problem with the 500 I drove. I drove the Fusion first and thought it wasn't quite big enough. So I drove the 500 and the first acceleration opportunity was also the last one of my test drive. Turned it around and headed back to the dealer.
As the Ford Fusion is barely out yet, and the 500 isn't selling in the Avalon/300 class, ($28k-35k), but closer to Taurusville ($22-26k), I stated that the 500 is replacing the Ford Taurus, IN PERCEPTION, meaning a large FWD with similar V6 power for near the same price, but with a new look and a couple of new features. That's all! It is not in the Avalon/300 class, more like an Impala. It is not a premium offering, especially with 200 HP.
If they tried to get $30k for it like Toyota does with Avalon, or Chrysler does with 300, they'd develop an acute case of "Lot Rot", to use oild sales lingo. Very technical.
Having sold a car or two, I've seen Ford Vehicle Training videos, and Ford does do a nice job of engineering their full-size vehicles. And if I were to buy a Truck TODAY for the next 10 years, the F-150 would be my pick.
BUT...
The F-150 gained too much weight to get a level of integrity desired, and the powerplants were left behind. GM will have 400HP in their Silverado within a year, and Toyota is sick of playing the wall, and will easily leave the Ford behind as well. I haven't heard of any impending improvements to the F-series to keep it on top.
And the weight disadvantage hurts fuel economy, acceleration, towing, and the effects of any implanted hybrid technology.
You can SAY your truck will tow 9,900 lbs., but that Triton engine will struggle with that load. The chassis, maybe not, but the engine, combined with the trucks lofty weight, will be breathing heavy, and burning that oil, my friend. :sick:
My point is, from what I've seen the F-150 is on borrowed time. C&D already said the Titan is better, and the Ram not far behind. When GM and Toyota "Cowboy Up!", Ford has issues. Ford needs to address them now, not later.
Actually, I think we would look at the 300 if it did not have a hemi...but you must admit those commercials last year, when Mom spoke about how safe the car was, and then Dad hols his little boy and says, "Son, can you say Hemi?"...with one lousy word, they brought back memories to millions of us who lived in the 60s...
However, even w/o the hemi, if they had any V8 that put out over 300HP, and the car was nicely styled, it could still turn heads...if Northstar was as well known as Hemi, and if GM put it in any car other than Caddy, it would do the same thing...but "small block Chevy" still ain't as cute as "Hemi"...isn't necessary, but helpful...
No joy in Fordville, fill? Naw, there is some joy there. Mustang is pure joy.... Fusion may be joy. There is some joy there. Maybe not enough - but some.
Hey, it doesn't matter what Chrysler thinks, or what Ford thinks, we all know GM doesn't think anymore. The answer to this strategy having any longevity, lies in what Toyota, BMW and Mercedes think. It seems RWD platforms for high performance and luxury cars still lives..... AWD is actually a way to disguise a FWD platform, IMO.
Comments
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Renault was hinting that it might want to buy Jaguar. Good move for all involved, imo.
Did I miss something? WHEN did they ask the Feds to bail them out?
Here the actual numbers:
300C/300M - 80,506
Impala - 77,944
Five Hundred - 68,505
Avalon - 63,784
Lacrosse - 57,651
Grand Prix - 44,089
Lesabre - 42,866
Grand Marquis - 40,130
These are retail sales, excluding any fleet units.
Don't forget Chrysler rising from the ashes with help from the feds. And the airlines........
Asian governments wellbeing is tied to national export, not to consumption like in USA. You cannot imagine negative trade balance in Asian countries. And they have to borrow us money to buy their exports. Somebody has to make money to borrow us to keep world economy rolling.
Impala - 77,944
Five Hundred - 68,505
Avalon - 63,784
Lacrosse - 57,651
Grand Prix - 44,089
Lesabre - 42,866
Grand Marquis - 40,130
Listen, I'm a 500 fan - I like it better than both the 300C and the Impala, and I think the power is fine, and the economy is appreciated. But, realistically? If the 500 is not outselling the 300 or Impala, it's the loser! Outselling the Avalon is saying something I guess, but the Lacrosse, Grand Prix, Lesabre and Grand Marquis are pathetic. Kind of like beating Sam Snead at golf today - since he's dead, isn't he?
Impala - 224,295
Taurus - 181,929
300C/300M - 131,846
Grand Prix - 114,686
Five Hundred - 99,611
Avalon - 86,540
Lacrosse - 85,879
Lesabre - 74,333
Grand Marquis - 61,594
Crown Victoria - 60,454
Charger - 6,827
Montego - 24,858
Sable - 23,449
Now once the Sable and Taurus are totally phased out, I think 500 and Montego sales will improve. So I'm not counting it out as a total loser.
And you also have to consider that the car also competes, somewhat, with the likes of...
Camry - 398,379
Accord - 348,526
Altima - 236,923
Now these models are a bit smaller than the 500, but still close enough in size that many buyers could go either way. The main draw of a 500/Montego is the huge trunk and back seat legroom that would rival some 70's mastodons. But from the most important seat, that of the driver, it's not much roomier. And I'm sure enough people find the trunks and back seats of other cars roomy enough that its not a concern, and place more emphasis on the handling, performance, style, etc.
Still, like NVbanker, I'm kinda rooting for the 500, as well. There's just something I like about it. It has a clean, innoffensive, almost work-horse stance to it. Unfortunately, I guess that turns it into a bit of a wallflower. They need to get a bigger optional engine into it, though. I think the 3.0 is okay as a base engine...certainly no worse than 3.5 in the Impala, and not much worse than the 3.5 in the Charger/300 (I'm trying my damndest to ignore the 2.7 in those cars :P ) But it just needs something stronger as an option.
As for the 300: dramatic styling and a choice of 3 engines. I think it's the other way around: if the 300 weren't outselling the 500, Chrysler would have something MAJOR to worry about.
I know Ford has been working on this new 3.5L engine forever, and it's going to rock the known world when it arrives and all, but in the meantime couldn't they have made room under the 500's hood for the Mustang V-8 when they designed it, knowing it would be several years before the next-gen Duratec was ready? That could have been the optional engine. Then the 500 would be killing the 300 I think. The 300's interior is pretty cheap, the Dodge clone's interior is UNBEARABLY cheap, while the 500's interior is pretty decent.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I've been trying to imagine the 500 in Cutty-Sark yellow - and in Black & White. What about you?
Or they could have designed the 500 to use the existing automatic from the Mustang. Either way, the return on that investment would have been ten-fold.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Look at Mercedes, still using the 5-speed auto for all their super-power cars, while stuff like the E350 is using the new 7-speed.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, you'd have to also make a compact car that doesn't weigh 3000lbs.
The V8 in the F150 has been left behind.
For a competitive (not leading) V6, we have to wait ANOTHER year.
How about a 4?
DrFill
FWIW though, my grandparents had an '85 LeSabre, 307-4bbl, with the 4-speed overdrive tranny. They got 29 mpg out of it on a vacation once. That car had really tall gearing, though. 2.73:1 rear, and overdrive would knock it down to around 1.80:1, so even at 70-80 mph (which Granddad rarely drove...Grandmom was a different story!) the car sounded like it was barely running. As long as you stayed on flat ground, and at a "reasonable" speed, it could get great economy. That was also back when it was newer, though. That car got handed down to me, and I think I might've gotten 22 mpg out of it ONCE!
However when I put (4) 200 + people in it & a full set of golf carts or Luggage the 205hp Duratec engine was VERY Lackluster in performance. It choked.
I have a 6 cylinder in my 2004 Sport Trac. It does Not choke when I have 4 people & a load in the rear !
Conclusion: Ford should have offered a bigger engine as an option in the Mercury Montego/ Ford 500 and in the
Mercury Milan/Ford Fusion. Without an bigger engine option or a Turbo Ford will lose sales.
What I can't believe is these same Ford Management did the exact same thing when they brought out the first under-powered Jaguar S class and the Volvo S-80.
Ford introduced them with Small engines the first 2 years & then later dropped the engines & offered bigger ones or Turbo's in succeeding years. Why can't they learn from previous mistakes in the SEDAN division? :mad:
I also only looked at units in the segment the Five Hundred competes in.
I don't look for the decline in Taurus/Sable sales to be replaced by Five Hundred sales. The true replacement numbers will come from Fusion/Milan, which compete in the segment the Taurus/Sable are leaving.
I'd like to make a prediction that in 2006, the Five Hundred will be the segment leader. The new engine, new front end and, hopefully, no major problems will have more consumers looking at it. It is a fine family sedan.
I take honda's engineering. honda managed a good engine with their VTEC technology they also made it economical.
I do not think ford has any interest in gioing too mcuh closer to 40mpg right now. With the 2.0 Duratech, 35 mpg hwy, is very good, and the added 5 mpg would actually give it no edge... at least not right now... Ford buyers do not look at those things that much.
and about the V6.. I do not see anything about thenm dropping the ball with V6.. it is FINE!!!.. yeah we feel the 500 is underpowered, but comparted to what? a HeMI 300?
300 is an extravagant car, not a coservative vehicle that 500 is. They are the same size, but they have completely different Market..
The 500 competes with avalon...
Avalon engine:
3.5-liter DOHC 24-valve Dual VVT-i V6
268 hp @ 6200 rpm
248 lb.-ft. @ 4700 rpm
Fivehundred Engine:
3.0L 4V Duratec 30 V6
203 @ 5,750 rpm
207 @ 4,500 rpm
It is weaker, but obviously not as much (and customers seem not caring - looking at the sales figures). And the next years 3.6 will be right spot on agains the avalon.
Igor
The 500 is nicer than a Taurus, and a little bigger inside, but I don't think it's a big enough jump up that it's a whole new exlusive catgory. Nor do I feel the LaCrosse, Grand Prix, etc are, either.
Ford wants you to think the 500 is a full-sized car, and a viable replacement for the old Crown Vic. I look at it more as a "tweener" car though. Kinda like a 1985 Buick Electra or Olds 98. Sure, they were considered full-sized cars, and marketed as such, but they ended up with interior measurements that fell somewhere between the midsized and full-sized cars on the market at the time.
Test drive an Avalon, then go step into a 500, and you will be RUNNING BACK to 'Yota!
And my #2: Everybody is running 240-280HP. Chrysler 300 offers 3 ENGINES!! From Bonnevilles to Altimas, to 300+HP in the Impala SS, Ford has been left in the proverbial dust by the competition. And now won't get a second look by most. You only get one chance to make a first impression.
What the 500 has turned into is a Taurus replacement, in perception. It is not a $30k+ flagship like Avalon or 300C. Can't compete with these cars. Most 500 sell around $24-27k. Add $5k to 300 and Avalon, maybe more.
Ford is not good enough right now to make an adequate car or truck. Period!
YES, they should've waited until the late-to-the-party 3.5 was ready. Or better yet, not be so late-to-the-party in the first place! :mad:
Strangely, it is making roughly the same sales the Passat was, the car it is obviously modeled after. Is much heavier, and not much more powerful.
There is no joy in Fordville.
DrFill
Hate mention it again, but horsepower is not King! We are talking family sedans. When you drive a Five Hundred, the seating position gives it away that you are not in a sports sedan. It wasn't designed to be.
The Five Hundred is outselling the Avalon right now. It's selling because it is a safe, roomy and good value "family sedan". This seams to be enough for a lot of people.
"Ford is not good enough right now to make an adequate car or truck. Period."
Look at the recent launches of Ford vehicles. F150, Freestyle, Five Hundred/Montego, Mustang, Mariner, Fusion/Milan/Zephyr, Escape and Mariner Hybrids. No major problems.
All of these are "adequate" in my opinion.
HP is not everything, I'll give you that. But it seems to me that the Nissan Altima's 240 hp 3.5L V6 was a big part in that car's success story. In fact, horsepower is a key ingredient in Nissan's whole revival.
The reason why the Avalon isn't selling in huge volumes is because it's a more expensive car and Toyota hasn't been discounting them until recently. This is a complete exaggeration, but it's like comparing a Lexus to a Corolla. There's a bigger market for cheap cars, but the expensive ones have higher profit margins. If you can't outsell the competition when you undercut them by $5K, you've got a problem.
I agree with Littlez on this one. Many of their products are perfectly adequate. Problem is... the competition keeps creating cars that are far better than adequate. The only recent Fords I would put on that level are the F-150 and Mustang.
Please don't slam me for this comment. I know the difference between some import quality and some domestic quality is not just about automatic transmissions, but truth is, if every manufacturer stopped offering an automatic transmission, recalls would drop significantly.
Wasn't the original plan for the 500 was to replace the Crown Vic? Also wasn't the name Galaxie 500 first considered?
You're also right about the Five Hundred replacing the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. Ford received so many letters from state patrol offices, local law enforcement agencies and old people to keep the big rear drive cars.
Now if the Crown Vic or Grand Marquis were to go away, I'm sure many of those buyers would go to a 500 or Montego (I could see them migrating to a 300 or Lucerne just as easily though) simply because there would no longer be a direct alternative.
The 500 really slots in between the Taurus and the Crown Vic, while the Fusion slots a bit below the Taurus. Ford seems to be slowly adopting the formula set by Chevrolet and Dodge, where they have a compact car (Neon, Cobalt, Focus) a smallish midsize (Malibu, Stratus, Fusion) and a smallish full-size (Impala, Intrepid/Stratus, 500). Meanwhile, they seem to be phasing out the old-school full-size, which GM dropped after '96, and Chrysler after '81.
The 500 has a HUGE trunk...bigger actually than the Crown Vic. And the back seat has more legroom. It still feels like a midsized car to me overall though...usually generous shoulder room is what makes a car feel roomy to me, even if it really isn't.
Come on, Ford...your competition in this segment allows you to have a manual with the up-level engines...
Many companies, including Ford think that AWD will be a replacement for those who want rear-drive. Is this the right decision? Chrysler introduced the 300 with a rear-drive platform because they didn't agree with this. Who is right? I don't think the Chrysler rear-drive strategy has any longevity. They will sell now because they are quite different than anything out there, but what about two or three years from now? I don't see much of a future with rear drive unless it's a sports car. Just my opinion.
The main reason that Chrysler ended up with RWD on the 300/Charger is because they wanted to go back to V-8 power. IIRC, the original plan was to offer these platforms with FWD, RWD, or AWD, and a choice of V-6 or V-8 power. In the end, the FWD version was scrapped.
I think at one time, Chrysler may have wanted to offer the Intrepid/Concorde/etc with a choice of FWD, AWD, or RWD, which is why the engine was set up longitudinally. At the time though, they just didn't have the money to carry out that ambitious plan, so the only thing that remained from it was the north-south engine setup. Supposedly that engine setup reduces torque steer that's normally a feature of FWD cars. I dunno if it does or not...I can still get the front-end of my Intrepid to shoot off to one side if I put my mind to it, and I only have the 2.7!
"Well, Johnny, in the old days they made cars that had big V8 engines in them. I know it sounds weird, but Grandpa actually had "fun" driving them."
I'm sorry, but a Toyota Prius cannot be "fun" to drive. Sorry, wrong forum.
First, compared to the F-150, all other "fullsize trucks" are toys. The vaunted MT Truck of the year Titan has a max payload that barely exceeds that available in a FORD RANGER!!!.
I've seen the tower of tough video Ford uses for F-150 training. The F-150 has 360 lb ft of torque 2nd highest in class. The F-150 does a better job than any other truck of getting the power to the pavement. Spinning wheels doesn't get you any where, thats why its called spinning wheels.
The F-150 in a Tug of War with every other "fullsize" truck, including the "Hemi" Dodge (its really a semi-hemi) drags them around like a kid with his blankie. Anyone can have huge horse power numbers but who cares if you can't get that power to the ground?
For a truck, TORQUE is way more important than HP.
The problem with the 500/Freestyle, is not that they are underpowered, its that they fail to capture the imagination of the public. People really do not seem to have an emotional draw to these cars... They drip practicality from every seam but style and grace seem to come up a little short. This of course is the result of the stupid advertising campaign.
The new Milan campaign seems pretty good. I hope Ford puts together this type of campaign for some more vehicles.
Mark
Some people feel good buying a car knowing that its faster than any other sedan available.
I think just as many people would feel good buying a car knowing that its the safest sedan available to transport their family in.
Anybody can give you the former by just adding a bigger engine to their otherwise average car. Would we even care about the 300 if it didn't have the Hemi?
Only a real car company dedicated to building the best product possible could accomplish the later.
www.highwaysafety.org
Check it out. Ford Five Hundred is the ONLY Gold Medal Winner for full size sedan.
Mark
That is exactly the problem with the 500 I drove. I drove the Fusion first and thought it wasn't quite big enough. So I drove the 500 and the first acceleration opportunity was also the last one of my test drive. Turned it around and headed back to the dealer.
I gave Ford a chance. They blew it.
As the Ford Fusion is barely out yet, and the 500 isn't selling in the Avalon/300 class, ($28k-35k), but closer to Taurusville ($22-26k), I stated that the 500 is replacing the Ford Taurus, IN PERCEPTION, meaning a large FWD with similar V6 power for near the same price, but with a new look and a couple of new features. That's all! It is not in the Avalon/300 class, more like an Impala. It is not a premium offering, especially with 200 HP.
If they tried to get $30k for it like Toyota does with Avalon, or Chrysler does with 300, they'd develop an acute case of "Lot Rot", to use oild sales lingo. Very technical.
Having sold a car or two, I've seen Ford Vehicle Training videos, and Ford does do a nice job of engineering their full-size vehicles. And if I were to buy a Truck TODAY for the next 10 years, the F-150 would be my pick.
BUT...
The F-150 gained too much weight to get a level of integrity desired, and the powerplants were left behind. GM will have 400HP in their Silverado within a year, and Toyota is sick of playing the wall, and will easily leave the Ford behind as well. I haven't heard of any impending improvements to the F-series to keep it on top.
And the weight disadvantage hurts fuel economy, acceleration, towing, and the effects of any implanted hybrid technology.
You can SAY your truck will tow 9,900 lbs., but that Triton engine will struggle with that load. The chassis, maybe not, but the engine, combined with the trucks lofty weight, will be breathing heavy, and burning that oil, my friend. :sick:
My point is, from what I've seen the F-150 is on borrowed time. C&D already said the Titan is better, and the Ram not far behind. When GM and Toyota "Cowboy Up!", Ford has issues. Ford needs to address them now, not later.
DrFill
However, even w/o the hemi, if they had any V8 that put out over 300HP, and the car was nicely styled, it could still turn heads...if Northstar was as well known as Hemi, and if GM put it in any car other than Caddy, it would do the same thing...but "small block Chevy" still ain't as cute as "Hemi"...isn't necessary, but helpful...
A little wordy, but you made your point.
I will make a bet with you though, I say F-150 will never lose the sales crown to Tundra.
Now, how can we set this wager up?
Ford's days of selling 900k a year are running out. They'll drop to around 650-700k in 10 years.
I can see Tundra selling 400k in ten years.
Wanna bet on that?
DrFill