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What about the future of Ford Inc??

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Comments

  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    Was the '96 Taurus the catfish one?
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    carlisimo: And how did the American Focus become a $9000 special? (Just look at dealer ads in the paper.)

    First, Ford badly fumbled the launch, allowing the car to become tainted by quality bugaboos and numerous recalls. Fortunately, Ford has straightened out the quality problems.

    Second, Ford allowed the car to become dated in the face of improving competition. Not bringing over the updated European Focus was a big mistake...even if Ford didn't realize immediate returns, a thoroughly updated Focus would have given the company a top-notch entry in a very competitive segment and added some luster to the Focus nameplate. The MBAs running Ford need to steal a page from Honda's playbook and make every effort to keep models fresh, even if it means the financial gains won't be recognized immediately.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    Yes, that was the catfish Taurus. Regardless of what one thinks of the styling, it was much better built - and more reliable - than the previous generation.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "The MBAs running Ford need to steal a page from Honda's playbook and make every effort to keep models fresh, even if it means the financial gains won't be recognized immediately."

    Well, you're absolutely right, grbeck, that's exactly what they should do. It's easier in Japan though - where long term is long term, and not 1 quarter like it is in the US. In this country, if you didn't make more money this quarter than you did last quarter, Wall Street puts a "Sell" order out on your stock because you're going down the drain!!!
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    Both Honda and Golf/Jetta had semi-indepentent rear supension on previous models. In several comparos, this was highlighted as an asset of Focus.
    Focus has fully independent rear supention, that was and still is not common in Compacts, especially in the US. Both Golf and Civic now sport almost identical rear setup. While the Civic's doublewhishbone and Golf's torsion beam were not bad... competition with Focus brought them to simply adopt the same setup. Actually the current setup is so good the that the new Focus Platform (Mazda3, Volvo S40/.V50) basically leaves that part completely unchanged...

    And about the Focus price.. well first, the minimum factory invoice is around 11k. If a dealer is selling it at 9k it is their own loss... second Focus got so cheap, because it needs to compete as the bottom of the line Ford in the times when Ford badly needs to move cars. It is percevied as old and outdated and unfortunately, Ford does little to change that perception..The perception is the more upsetting, since under the cheap sheetmetal and plastic the Foucs has gorwn up into a much better car than it was before..
    The Duratec engine, better breaks, better transmission... all three were changed since the 2000 introduction.. so technologically Focus is competitive.. it just is not presented in such way right now..

    Igor
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    HHR is not perceived as a good new model.. it is a 5 year delayed response to PT Cruiser which was THE FIRST car based on the 48 Suburban...

    It might sell well, but it does not make Chevy look like it is moving forward. Unlike the new Ford models, that are somewhat revolutionay for Ford, HHR is not much of an innovation or change.. or at least does not seem to be perceived that way.. it is bussiness as usual from Chevy, so it fails to produce the perception of "winners" that was talked about.... it is not recognized as a GREAT or AWESOM small car that will make ripples... not at all.. People made a mental note that Chevy now has a copy of PT cruiser and it ended there....

    Igor
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    I see what you mean, igor. The HHR to me, is one of the better things Chevy has to offer right now, in the car line. I think it fits their mission with a little more style than usual. But I see your point.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    What I do not understand with GM, is that they have TWO great model lineups.. Both Cadillac and Pontiac are very well settled on their models and have a great reception from the market.. How come GM is completely unable to bring anythign from these models into Chevy.. somethign is horribly wrong there..
    Why can they work with Toyota and create Vibe, but then grab hold of Opel platform and butcher it into Cobalt.. Why Once they know how well the Vibe got received for its style, didn't they try to style the HHR in a similar way. Why does Chevy not have a platform mate of the G6 that would look equally well..
    this is what Ford has been doing well, but somehow GM manages to completely screw up.

    Igor
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Even worse though, is the Saturn debacle. Talk about how to kill a brand! It's completely off course from it's beginnings now, and a totally unnecessary brand - or else Chevy is.

    They need to drop Saturn, or
    Chevy, and GMC Trucks, or Chevy again, and they're on their way to killing Buick now, with these stupid new names on the same old cars.
  • ehaaseehaase Member Posts: 328
    They need to drop Saturn, or
    Chevy, and GMC Trucks, or Chevy again, and they're on their way to killing Buick now, with these stupid new names on the same old cars


    Well, GM is going to do the opposite of what you think it should. It will move Saturn upscale, with the new Sky, Aura, and Outlook. Actually, Saturn's sales have been up lately, mostly because of the improved 2006 Vue. I can see Buick being dropped within 5 years, but Chevy and GMC are going nowhere.
  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    catfish Taurus

    What the heck is a catfish Taurus? I never heard of that before.
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    that's a nickname that came out for the 1996 Taurus, which took the ovoid theme a little too far. Ford toned down the look a bit for '98-99 and practically erased it for the 2000 restyle. The front-end of the '96-99 models has a bit of a catfish look to it, with its odd little headlights and the low-mounted grille intake.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Well, it is almost universally true that new models are more expensive than the ones that preceded them. What I meant was actually stepping up in price POINT to come in as expensive as the same-segment models from the first-tier Japanese companies. Average transaction prices on the Focus are like $13K for instance, while the Civic does 20% better. In fact, Hyundai will surpass that $13K average any day now with the Elantra.

    I think if they had brought over the $18-22K Euro Focus and it had really been all that the European press claimed it was, people would have anted up. Maybe in smaller numbers. But also at higher per-unit profits.

    For an example today, look at the redesigned '06 Sonata vs the '06 Fusion. Once again, at any given price point the Ford is falling short, in a brand new model. A lot of the interior details are off, the power is off in the V-6, and so on and so forth. And since prices are about the same and the Hyundai warranty is a lot longer, this will result in another erosion of Ford's customer base as more folks defect to Korean brands for the next car.

    Could they have built a car $2K more expensive in which they caught all those details? I bet they could. Yes, then this model would have close to a Toyota/Honda price, and people would say wow! That is pricey. But the reviews would all say "Ford finally hits a homerun!" (well maybe not "finally", since the new Mustang was much-loved), Ford could advertise all the acclaim its new Fusion was getting, and cancel the endless cash rebates on this one model, thereby raising their profits from each sale.

    Instead, this brand new model is losing comparos right out of the gate as reviewer after reviewer damns it with faint praise. I have sat in it at the auto show, and I agree with them on the interior. Better than the Taurus, oh yes, but that wasn't much of a bar to vault.

    chuck: the catfish Taurus was the 1996 redesign that made the whole car look like a fish from face to gills. :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    Instead, this brand new model is losing comparos right out of the gate as reviewer after reviewer damns it with faint praise. I have sat in it at the auto show, and I agree with them on the interior. Better than the Taurus, oh yes, but that wasn't much of a bar to vault.

    ------------------
    I do not think the future for Fusion is as bleak as you put it. The thing is currently Hyundai with al those advantages is still a hyundai and that is (at least in the midsize - prestige driven market) still a worse point than Ford.
    I agree that Ford needs to grow up and stop feeling it needs to win the market by underselling its cars.. Many of the models are/could be good enought to compete head to head with japanese... However I believe it would not be realitstic to do it with Fusion, ford has no foothold in the midsize market.. it needs to be cheap at first but good enough so gen2 Fusion can move as direct competition...
    They could have done hte direct competition with Focus, because Ford already had a strong footing in the market and a strong nameplte to just keep rolling. However even there they had 2 reasons not to do that
    1) As I mentioned in other posts, as a mass brand (unlike volvo and Mazda) ford needs something cheap to get the 'bottom line" buyers... With GM having both Aveo and Cobalt, thye needed to keep Focus cheap so the regular folk can buy it. If you notice Toyota has Scion and is bringing Yaris, Honda is brining Fit/Jazz ... Ford is Bringing Fiesta and Ecosport Unfortunately Ford does not have strong enough reputation to survive a direct price comparison.. lots of Ford buyers will simply go for the cheapest car with the same equippment.
    2) The EU Focus is not a godsent. the Platform is good, but so is the current one. The styling is criticizedas too bland... moreover, the EU focus is too expensive.. you cannot bring 18k compact when you have 17k midsize.
    Even the new Civic is cheapend from EU version so it starts below 15k.

    Fusion is not a bad car and it EXACTLY what ford needs right now. Even if fusion was THE best and most luxurious midsize out there, consumers would want it to be at least 1k cheaper that Accord.Camry because it is still Ford. And while Accord keeps winning comparso, Fusion is right up there with Sonata leaving camry eat the dirt..

    Igor
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    The Camry's still winning, despite it all. So it goes.

    I wonder if the Euro Focus and the Mazda3 are too alike to sell together. I still would've brought it over, but not without also bringing a smaller car (Fiesta). The Corolla and Civic are getting little siblings, and the Focus has the name to stay up with those two. Sad to see it become an Accent fighter.

    I hate to say this about the catfish Taurus, but even if other cars are obviously uglier, I find the Taurus more repulsive to look at. The truly ugly cars always have some coolness about them, but not the Taurus. And there are lots of them. Trying to be a mass-market car. With no good angle. The wagon's funky side windows are bad too. I just can't believe that car.

    But that's just me.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I am with you on many points there, but thought I would mention that the 5 YEAR OLD Camry ate dirt, but the new model will be in showrooms in three months. Think Toyota will improve it?! :-P

    Maybe Ford could have "done a Taurus" with the Focus. That is, keep building the cheaper existing Focus trims to hang onto the price buyers in the $10-15K bracket, calling it the Focus Classic perhaps, and bring the new Focus over as well, priced $17-20K. Leave the over-$20K trims in Europe for a year or two. The Mazda3 has stickers approaching $20K and sells well, and it is a few years old already. The new Civic EX with NAV runs $21K+. Ford could do this, I am sure. It would be taking a step toward a better future, rather than the existing plan, which will keep them mired in mediocrity for another car generation.

    And I do take issue with one thing - the whole prestige thing. First of all, there isn't a whole lot of prestige that enters buying decisions in the midsize family sedan market, I don't think. But secondly, Hyundai is now pulling up to GM and Ford in the "prestige" department, and will be passing them in a few short years, at least in California. If the domestic twins are still pumping out the same old stuff five years from now, they will have missed their chance, and Hyundai will have passed them in the desirability column. While the Chinese will be offering a car for sale here that is 80% as good as the Ford for 50% of the price. With a better warranty.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    The Camry's still winning, despite it all. So it goes.
    -------

    Where did you see a comparo that had Accord, Camry, Sonata and Fusion where Camry did well..
    I saw 2.. one from Edmunds without Fusion
    and one in Car and Dirver with all 4.
    Accord won both, Camry lost both. Sonata and Fusion were in the middle.

    -----------
    I wonder if the Euro Focus and the Mazda3 are too alike to sell together. I still would've brought it over, but not without also bringing a smaller car (Fiesta). The Corolla and Civic are getting little siblings, and the Focus has the name to stay up with those two. Sad to see it become an Accent fighter.
    ----------------
    Yup the thing about Focus nameplate is right on spot. Once we get Fiesta future will ook better for Focus. second I do not thin kthere would be too much competition between Mazda3 and the Euro Focus.. they sell together in europe and they have different audiences. Focus on both sides of the atlantic is a family car.. while it has the 3door.. really it is bought for thr 5doo and wagon as family cars. Mazda has much younger audience and it is by far less plractical. Then you have Volvo that actually looks like the Focus, but it is premium in feel and price.. and comes as a coupe-cabrio besides sedan and wagon (and upcoming 3door).

    Igor
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    3 things..
    ONE
    Camry is and even the 07 will be boring. I willimprove but camry buyers are not going to be excatly the same as Fusion buyers... Basically you have sonata/Camry are plush midsizes. Fusion/mazda6/Altima as mosre sporty - fun - midizes and Accord as the perfect midpoint... In my eyes the 07 is keeping up the boring trend.
    TWO
    There are many theories what ford should have done.. The Classic / New would be one... all in all Ford will be skipping a generation of Focus.. BTW do not discard the upcoming 2008 Focus... there is nothing wrong with the current underpiinings. If Ford does it right it will be a good car gain
    THREE
    Yes, Hyundai is pulling up, but with the Fusion Ford kept it still in "puling up" so Huyndai is still a little lower.. hence the better warranty and (for this year) stronge rengine, simply cancel out that disadvantage for Sonata in buyers eyes.. IMO

    Igor
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    "Where did you see a comparo that had Accord, Camry, Sonata and Fusion where Camry did well.. "

    I should clarify. The Camry isn't winning into comparos, but it's winning in sales.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "BTW do not discard the upcoming 2008 Focus... there is nothing wrong with the current underpiinings. If Ford does it right it will be a good car gain"

    True enough. Of course, by the time the MY '08 cars roll around, there will be a new Sentra, a new Elantra, a new Corolla, and even the new Dodge thingummy, Caliber? With a sedan to follow? And the Civic mid-cycle update will follow the new Focus debut by a year or less. Not to mention whatever GM might do with the Cobalt and Ion (maybe it's better NOT mentioned - it will probably be little or nothing anyway).

    Which is all to say there will be a huge OPPORTUNITY for Ford to once again make it just good enough, or not quite as good as, the competition. (Actually, when Focus debuted it was at least as good as the competition, but Ford can't afford to have that many recalls in a first-year model again for a very long time). Now whether they avail themselves of that OPPORTUNITY or actually make it a world beater is up to them. I am afraid folks at the top will still have the attitude two years from now that making it a world beater will turn it into a model that "Americans just won't pay that much for in a compact car", and go the cheap route.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    The Camry has always been boring. And it's still the best selling car in the class. By targeting the sportier side of the segment, Ford is trying to wrestle a piece of the pie from 4 other manufacturers. Meanwhile Toyota is still safe selling to the hordes of buyers who want something boring.

    On the other hand, with a 268 hp V6 under the hood, the next Camry isn't going to be quite so dull.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    very good points ... the same things are on my mind..

    Just a quick note... Rumor (who usually is right) has it that the new Focus is already designed..
    Basically the deisgn is finished, possibly approved.. and the stages remaning is building and testing it.. producing it..

    I still haven't decided whether that was a good news or a bed news when I heard this.

    Igor
  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    Oh THAT Taurus. I never thought of it...but yes it does have a "catfishy" look to it! LOL I didn't like that one either. How were sales on that one compared to the other model years?
  • andre1969andre1969 Member Posts: 26,023
    but I think overall sales of the 1996 Taurus were close to that of the 1995. The problem, however, was that Ford started dumping them into rental fleets so that the "overall" picture still looked good.

    I remember when the 2000 style came out, I actually liked it. My Granddad, who was around 86 at the time, was thinking about getting a new car, and I took him around looking. He had a '94 Taurus that only had around 30,000 miles on it, but was just used to trading every 3-4 years, so he felt WAY overdue. Anyway, Granddad hated that 2000 Taurus so much that he flat-out REFUSED to even test drive it! The salesman had to literally beg him to get behind the wheel!
  • lovswrlovswr Member Posts: 3
    I noticed the difference immediately. That's why I bought an 06 3i at MSRP instead of the Focus which had a lower MSRP, 1500 rebate & several anxious Allan Vigil Ford dealers ready to , ahem, deal.
  • lovswrlovswr Member Posts: 3
    Ok, I have to resspond. I got the 3i because the Focus just looks like something that got mish-mashed together at the last minute. It just did not "feel right' compared to the Mazda. Also I'm 38 & my family was right there when I test drove both cars (within about 45 minutes). We were at the Ford dealer first & then Honda & then Mazda. They did not believe me when I told them that the Focus & 3i are essentially the same cars.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    nippononly: Well, it is almost universally true that new models are more expensive than the ones that preceded them. What I meant was actually stepping up in price POINT to come in as expensive as the same-segment models from the first-tier Japanese companies. Average transaction prices on the Focus are like $13K for instance, while the Civic does 20% better. In fact, Hyundai will surpass that $13K average any day now with the Elantra.

    The Contour and 1996 Taurus were not only more expensive than their predecessors, but also much BETTER. And Ford still had trouble selling them.

    nippononly: For an example today, look at the redesigned '06 Sonata vs the '06 Fusion. Once again, at any given price point the Ford is falling short, in a brand new model. A lot of the interior details are off, the power is off in the V-6, and so on and so forth. And since prices are about the same and the Hyundai warranty is a lot longer, this will result in another erosion of Ford's customer base as more folks defect to Korean brands for the next car.

    I have to disagree. I've looked at the Fusion and the Sonata, and definitely prefer the Fusion. The Sonata has "Accord-wannabe" styling, and the build quality wasn't anything to write home about. It's an improvement over previous Hyundais, but the Fusion still looked better built to me.

    The Fusion V-6 is a sturdy one (I've not heard of any major reliability issues with the 3.0 Duratec) and the ride and handling balance have won praise (which it should - the Mazda6 platform is one of the best on the market, and unlike GM, Ford has a knack for keeping the good parts of its subsidiaries' platforms). I still don't trust long-term Hyundai quality.

    And I love the Fusion's styling - it's the best-looking midsize on the market.

    nippononly: Instead, this brand new model is losing comparos right out of the gate as reviewer after reviewer damns it with faint praise. I have sat in it at the auto show, and I agree with them on the interior. Better than the Taurus, oh yes, but that wasn't much of a bar to vault.

    In Car & Driver and Motor Trend, the Fusion beat the Sonata and the Camry, coming in second behind the Accord. Not a shabby showing. And every solo review I've read gives it high marks.

    Now, I know that there will be a new Camry in 2007. And I don't doubt that it will satisfy loyal Toyota buyers. But, if it looks like the (leaked) promo shots that I've seen, it isn't going to get me out of an Accord, and wouldn't keep me from buying a Fusion. My top two choices in this segment will still be Accord and Fusion.
  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    I sell Fords so I drive a lot of Focuses but not so often that I don't notice how the car feels each time I get in.

    I'm basically of two minds on the Focus, on one hand, the car feels so right the way at drives that I think to myself, "I wouldn't mind owning one of these."

    Then I look down at the interior. GOD DANG WHAT A CHEAPO RENTAL CAR BLAH BLAH BLAH looking interior!!!

    To bad customers can't test drive the car blind folded.

    Mark
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    yes, but in that particular comparo, the Fusion and Sonata were virtually tied in points. Didn't the Fusion beat the Sonata by, like, 2 points out of 200?

    I am sure there are lots of people that don't trust the long-term reliability of the Hyundai. Guess what, there are a lot of folks who don't trust the Ford on the same basis. But the Hyundai has a warranty to ease their minds, the Ford doesn't.

    Looks are too subjective to include in the discussion, IMO. I agree with you that the Fusion's styling is nice. Opinions will vary widely, as they will on the relative quality and feel of the interior, which I was not thrilled with. The Duratec 3.0 is a solid engine, you are right. It is also universally described as "gruff" and "coarse" when revved. I have driven it, and I agree. It sounds like it is working much harder than it is at all speeds over about 3000 rpm. And the Sonata V-6 delivers 10% more power at the same price with the same fuel economy.

    I am just saying, too many aspects of the Fusion say "just good enough" rather than "better than the competition".

    edit...I just re-read the C&D comparo, and second, third, and fourth were within 6 points of each other on a 250-point scale. No clear winner among the brand new Fusion and Sonata, and the five year old Camry (with the lower-powered of the two available Camry V-6s). The three year old Accord, of course, ran away with the show.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mschmalmschmal Member Posts: 1,757
    Fusion is a great car but lefts face it, the only reason why people talk about it is because it is a Ford.

    If the Fusion was a VW, people wouldn't even blink.

    But to get this good a car out of Ford? Now that is something to talk about.

    Mark
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    actually the interior is much less of a problem to the focus than the mismatched exterior... i understand that for US the sedan is more important - and the redesign really helped it, but for focus the hatchbacks were the draw, and now the "angular" front clashes with the "round" back..

    I know I look at one everytime I am getting to mine...
    The interior is actually quite liked..

    but I agree with you.. as I said before...it is upsetting ford has discount pereption of the Focus, because under the sheetmetal and plastic very little is cheap..

    The car has a little bit of a screwed up nip-tuck... but it is still the best driving compact out there (I testdrove everyhing including Mazda3 and 06 Civic, and I Would still prefer the way Focus drives)...

    Igor
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    I should clarify. The Camry isn't winning into comparos, but it's winning in sales.

    Toyota/Lexus is one company who doesn't have to worry about comparos. Hlander finished behind Pilot/Murano in comparos, but outsells its rivals by a mile. Ditto for GS against Infiniti M. I don't know how Toyota does it, it's like they only have to compete against themselves.

    But it's not like no Toyota does well in comparos. New Avalon won every comparo it's in, albeit against a 4 year old Maxima. And GS generally does pretty well against German competition.
  • wcf2alteregowcf2alterego Member Posts: 8
    More than anything else, Ford is in the position it is today because the company and its executive management group lack integrity. To compound matters, the company lacks a vision. Without a vision, there can be no plan. Without a plan, there can be no improvement. Companies lacking integrity, vision and a plan are absent leadership.

    Ford’s executive management is about as lacking as they come. Bill Ford is not credible. Jim Padilla is lost. Mark Fields is insincere. Ann Stevens carries an empty bag. Collectively they are in well over their heads to the point of being inept.

    While both Ford and GM prefer to blame others and circumstances "beyond their control" for their problems, the truth of the matter is that both companies have been mismanaged for decades. Despite that mismanagement and a failure to meet their own corporate objectives, those top executives continue to earn large salaries not to mention undeserved and unearned bonuses that in some cases equal or exceed those inflated base salaries. These executives are responsible for the poor decisions and miscalculations that have driven their companies to the brink of disaster. These same executives will hand out the pink slips to those long dedicated employees earning much less compensation but having much more positive impact on the company’s performance than the executives.

    The revered Robert Lutz at GM illustrated the total lack of common sense at the executive levels in Detroit when he opined “on where Detroit went wrong” in a recent magazine article. I will quote the entire section so as to not paint it in a different light than presented. “We stopped being design-driven. We tried to create cars according to the rational-man theory, which is to make the car as roomy as possible, give people a lot of value and never mind what it looks like. Here was a fundamental error in thinking. We researched everything together. We’d get the respondents in and show them the exterior. They’d say, ‘Well, I don’t like the outside very much.’ ‘Okay,’ we’d say, ‘but how about the inside?’ They’d say, ‘Um, yeah, the inside’s pretty nice.’ ‘Okay, the outside is a red light, and the inside is a yellow light, now let’s talk about features and price.’ And they’d say, ‘Wow, now that you show me all these sun visors and cup holders and these neat seats that slide back and forth, there’s a lot of stuff here. I’ll give that a green light.’ Then we’d show them the price, and that would be a green light too. We’d say, “We got a red light on the outside, yellow on the inside and two greens, which adds up to greenish yellow. We have ourselves a winner here.’ We erred in thinking that the judgment happens simultaneously; it happens sequentially. The first gate is ‘Do I like the outside of the car?’ Only if that gate is a yes do they go to the dealership and look at the inside of the car.”

    How oblivious do you have to be to believe for one second that “the judgment happens simultaneously”? There is no better evidence that the executives in Detroit are simply not up to the task. If coming to the realization that those judgments do not happen simultaneously is an epiphany, just how stupid are these executives? Apparently, they are plenty stupid. Aside from lacking integrity and its offspring, the people managing Ford and GM at the highest levels simply do not possess enough common sense to get the job done. The sad thing is it isn’t as difficult as those very people make it out to be in their efforts to make themselves self-important.
  • wcf2alteregowcf2alterego Member Posts: 8
    car Ford builds that has any redeeming quality in styling. It will be a shame when the thing gets recalled because of some cheap inferior part they threw on it. The new Mustang is the one thing they have gotten right in their blue oval and L&M world.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    It was a good car that suffered from outalndish styling and the interior theme was too drastic looking. Other than that it was a good car. I sat in the backseat of one(a 1999)and I liked the ride. I remember my Dad was telling me he looked at a 96 Tarus when they first came out. I was like they are ugly. I was 17 years old at the time and I remember an issue of motor trend had a big article about the 96 Tarus when it was set to be getting released. The 86-91's looked good for their time. The 92-95's were alright. Then came the outlandish looks of the 96 and even though they toned the look of it down for the 00 model year it looked better but they couldn;t undo the damage that the 96 model had because of the awkward styling.

    On a same note Honda pulled a 96 Tarus with the 03 Accord to an extent but Honda changed the whole back clip for 06 wher as Ford left the whole car(96 Tarus)basically unchanged stylistically until 00..
  • pnewbypnewby Member Posts: 277
    What happened to this discussion? I show no updates since 12/16.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I guess people just don't care that much about its future. :-(

    2005 was what, its tenth year of market share decline? Not only that, it lost the title of number one selling brand in the U.S. to Chevy? And overall car sales dropped notably in the first full year of the Five Hundred and Mustang? Perhaps the first full year of Fusion availability will turn it around in '06.

    And the investors are still making trouble, with a further reduction in junk bond status of its stock, as doubt was expressed that even the latest restructuring plan, due to be announced 1/23, will be able to turn the company around by 2008.

    Apparently the only hard luck victims in 2005 were GM and Ford (GM down another 1.4% in market share last year), and perhaps some of the European brands, while Toyota was up nearly 10% in a flat market, and Chrysler is rebounding in America with vigor.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    The "Way Forward" plan isn't going to be announced until Jan 23, so there's not much to add until then.

    I see Chrysler's share remaining flat or declining this year. The only production Chrysler that looks promising at the Detroit auto show was the Caliber, and the Aspen and Imperial show that Chrysler just doesn't know where to go from here.

    Ford and Mazda look like they have good products coming, but Lincoln looks a little lost...
  • callmedrfillcallmedrfill Member Posts: 729
    Zephyr is a stupid name, and is obsolete at launch. The new ES350 will shame it out of production within 2 years. Thank you.

    No one has mentioned it, but this Ford Edge I'm not buying either. How do they make a CUV look so slab-sided? Did the fascia/lights/grille run through a wind tunnel? Why are they so vertical?

    And if it's 6 inches bigger than a Murano, and the same sized engine, why does it have considerably less cargo volume?

    Reminds me why the RX330 sells 100k a year at $40k. It's beautiful, roomy, and the builder obviously sweat the details.

    I hate the Murano interior, doh. :mad: Wouldn't buy one.

    Somebody was saying the Focus and Mazda3 are the same car before? In fact, the Focus is a generation behind. It looks like 2 generations, but is only one. Mazda3 shares with the Volvo S40, I believe.

    Someone else was banging the drum for the Focus' drivability. Better than your usual Domestic fare, but when layered under a shotty quality record, heinous looks, inside and out, and let's not forget the legendary Zetec engine, I'll make mine a Honda!

    Does Ford have anything GOOD coming soon? The Edge is better than a Freestyle, but that is faint praise. The Fusion is alright, but is a lesser value than Hyundai, and the new Camry will be superior, and the Accord already is. Whenever they get around to the Ranger, how good can that be? Tacoma has it's market already. 50% fleet sales?
    The minivan is over at Ford. The 500 is treading water.

    Where is the GOOD stuff!

    DrFill
  • carlisimocarlisimo Member Posts: 1,280
    It's the new Focus (gen II, only available in other countries) that shares platform with the Mazda3 and Volvo S40. It would have to sell in the Mazda's range ($15k-$20k), which is why Ford doesn't want to do it; the Focus blew its reputation with early-cycle recalls so now Ford's scared of taking it upscale.

    Then there are the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr on the Mazda6 platform. And the Edge/MKX on the Mazda6 platform. The MKS concept on the Volvo S80 platform. Great synergy between the three companies, though I feel like Mazda's getting the short end of the stick.

    The Edge does look rather dull, but it'll probably be a good vehicle. The Lincoln version is kinda dull too... all it got was a new grille and lights! It's the same old Lincoln strategy of mediocrity! The worst thing is, they look like very watered down Mazdas.

    Lincoln is nothing right now. That's sad, especially with that Continental concept they had a couple years ago. Becoming Acura won't get them very far, and it's certainly not "bold and American."
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    nippononly: I guess people just don't care that much about its future.

    Ford's struggles are overshadowed by GM's woes. It's a repeat of what happened in the late 1970s. Ford was gushing red ink almost as fast as Chrysler, but Chrysler's struggle got most of the press, primarily because Chrysler had media star Lee Iacocca at the helm, and he was leading the charge for the government loan guarantees.

    Sometimes, less publicity is better...that is what happened to Ford in 1979-82, and that is what is happening today. If GM's situation improves, you can bet that the media will turn its attention to Ford.

    Despite the mixed reviews on this thread, I like the Fusion, and believe that it can give Ford a boost. I also like the new Edge. It wears the new Ford tri-bar grille very well, and has an overall neat and tidy appearance.

    Where Ford dropped the ball is with the Focus, and not having a stronger engine ready for the Five Hundred. It needs a new Focus as soon as possible. The Five Hundred needs an engine that will add zest to the driving experience, not merely help retirees putter from Point A to Point B.

    William Clay Ford, Jr., will announce details of the company's "Way Forward" restructuring next Monday. It will be interesting to find out the details of this plan, and whether it is truly enough to set the company on the right path.
  • jsylvesterjsylvester Member Posts: 572
    The best plan would be if Bill Ford and his leutenants were shown the door. However, Ford has suffered under two completely clueless CEO's in a row (Nassar and Jr.), so I would think at this point all the car people with any talent have already moved on to greener pastures.

    When you have a Lincoln based upon a mid-size Mazda, you have to know the game is pretty much over for the home team. Once the Town Car dies due to neglect, Lincoln will be nothing but rebadged Mazda's and Volvo's.

    I love the old Ford Motor Co, but if the Panther platform goes away, they really don't have much left that sets them apart, especially on the car side.
  • bobw3bobw3 Member Posts: 2,989
    "The Edge is better than a Freestyle, but that is faint praise. "

    I have to defend my Freestyle ;) For the exterior size, it has more space inside than any other car. It's based on the Ford 500, so it handles better than a minivan, it has good mpg, and has a reasonable starting price. For $25 out the door, I couldn't find another vehicle with the car handling features (in other words, I didn't want a low-end minivan), plenty of space, safety features, etc. Not a fancy car, but I like plain & simple.

    Another Ford I like is the Focus wagon...again, a very practical car with lots of space for the size.

    You're right in that if I were ever in the market for a 4-door sedan, I wouldn't buy a Ford; however, I don't know why anyone would want a 4-door sedan when for about the same outside dimensions you can get a wagon, crossover, or some other vehicle that costs the same and is a whole lot more practical. Except as a second car if you already own something for hauling stuff. But I'm more practical then the average consumer of cars ;) If I were to buy a small commuter car, I'd go with the Corolla because I think the interior of the Civic is too strange looking...but again, my opinion.

    I bought a Ford because outside of a full-sized minivan, there wasn't another vehicle available that had the same interior size & features for $25K. Bottom line for me is that I bought what fit my needs. As far as quality, so far I have 23K miles and zero problems.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    OK I think you got carried away a little there...

    Focus - I agree - they dropped the ball. But you go beyond reasonable criticism. The zetec enginve was not bad, but it was replaced nonetheless. The Duratec is a modern, very twell designed, and one of the torqueiest gas 4bangers around. The Focus is ugly, but technologically sound. The upcoming 2008 Focus is promissing, because a leaked info suggests Ford will move it upscale to compete in the real game between Civic and Mazda3 (and Corolla)... this price point allows for a good vehicle. No more details are known

    Fusion - whether we like it, or not, Fusion is EXACTLY what was expected of Ford and wahat Ford needed. Ford is not in position to move Market places. It need to fist catch up and mhave good contenders. Fusion is spot on what they needed .

    Fivehundred - the same as Fusion, except that the weak engine got a little bit too much publicity. However they sell like hotcakes which kind of suggests Ford did its homework and set the HP's of the Fivehundred purposefully that low, because the market was not requiring more.

    Edge - well you criticize it only on loooks, so I guess that summarizes the ligitimacy of your comments. It has less cargo because it has more rear legroom. It is once again a very well positioned vehicle. Ford is getting early into the Crossover game (this class of it anyways) andf Edge is well positioned to contend.. is it s winner? Possibly not, but Ford is not in position to outwit the market... it just needs to go mainstream again. The design is conservative, yet fresh, AND clearly Ford (somethign Chevy lacks), it is a good vehicle that willl further Ford's image.

    Expolorer is well positioned and moves the market forward.. it s an excellent vehicle. It is quieter and more sophisitcated than any other straditional midsize SUV... Ford scored big there.

    Freestyle, Expedition, F150, Escape.. are all very well in the market selling good amounts.

    SportTrack is set to compete with ridgeline intorucing innovation to SUT...

    Ford is also bringing over Fiesta and EcoSport, jumping on the B segment bandwagon of Aveo, Fit, Yaris, Rio, Accord... with good possibly excellent entries.

    Freestar... well this is dead in the water... and Ford is considering what to do about its MinVan.. the Fairline concept seems to outline the direction of an 08 replafement.. we shall see.

    I believe I mentioned all ford vehicles except for Ranger and Crown Vic - these two vehicles are standstill because they keep selling despite no investment from Ford... we might not like it but why should ford pour money into cars that sell well anyays,

    BTW about fleet sales and Toyota. We always bash Ford for fleet sales.. but think about this. the NYC cabs use exactly 2 models of vehicles. One of them is Crown Vic... remind tourself which is the other. Toyota sells big to fleets, but somehow the market does not care.

    Igor
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >the NYC cabs use exactly 2 models of vehicles. One of them is Crown Vic... remind tourself which is the other. Toyota sells big to fleets, but somehow the market does not care.

    What is the other major cab? I don't visit NYC.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • john_324john_324 Member Posts: 974
    "the NYC cabs use exactly 2 models of vehicles. One of them is Crown Vic... remind tourself which is the other. Toyota sells big to fleets, but somehow the market does not care.

    What is the other major cab? I don't visit NYC."


    Are they still making the Marathon??? ;)
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    "BTW about fleet sales and Toyota. We always bash Ford for fleet sales.. but think about this. the NYC cabs use exactly 2 models of vehicles. One of them is Crown Vic... remind tourself which is the other. Toyota sells big to fleets, but somehow the market does not care."

    Yeah but Toyota sells less to fleets than Ford does. Some Toyota vehicles have some great resale values too. Ford is not really known for great resale values on their vehicles.
  • varmintvarmint Member Posts: 6,326
    I'm not sure if he means the Camry, but I do know that the Camry is among the 10 ten when it comes to fleet sales.

    I think the reason why the domestics get such a bad rep for fleet sales is because larger percentage of their fleet cars go to rental agencies. Rental sales are the most despicable of the fleet sales. Meanwhile a smaller percentage go to consumers.

    It's a matter of degree.
  • igor2igor2 Member Posts: 148
    It is Toyota Sienna van..
    there are 10's of thousands of them on the NYC streets.

    While I understand that being chosen as a Cab car is also an acknowledgement of quality (it is definitely for Crown Vic), thousands of Sienna's sold to the fleet of the Taxi cabs seems to arouse less attention than a could of Fivehundreds in rental fleets (for example) and it makes me angry.

    Igor
  • chuck1959chuck1959 Member Posts: 654
    Ford is not really known for great resale values on their vehicles.

    That may be true, but at least they are realiable. I know a few people that have Crown Vics with anywhere from 90,000 to 175,000 miles on the same engine/tranny.
This discussion has been closed.